Is House Tully the weakest Liege Lords in the entire kingdom?

[cpg2016]

2 minutes ago, devilish said:

Tyrion was the queen's own brother and heir to CR. If we rely on jurisdiction then he should be taken into trial at the place he was arrested (ie the Riverlands). Ideally this matter should be sorted by the King. That's why there's the king's justice in the first place. Instead Tyrion is arrested in the Riverlands and Cat drags him to the Vale bypassing both her father and the king's jurisdiction. He is subject to the most biased of trials and is lucky to come out of it alive.

Robert doesn't 'care' because Tyrion doesn't die. In his line of judgement the Starks and the Lannisters are even with the former abducting the Imp and with Ned being beaten to a pulp for it by the kingslayer. Things would have been different if Tywin lost his son and heir. That's a crime Robert couldn't close an eye on especially if it turns out that Cat's evidence is nothing but fluff. 

Again, we have NO IDEA what sense of "jurisdiction" entails in Westeros.  If you want to use a modern sense, then he should have been taken to Winterfell, where the crime was committed.

Ned tells Robert that he ordered the arrest.  Which means, it is perfectly legal of Cat to execute it (or anyone).  And when Robert finds out, he just doesn't give a shit.  Which means that in the absence of a countermanding order from the King, the Hand is the highest authority in the land.  Which means, AGAIN, that Tyrion's imprisonment is legal.  And while his trial is barbaric, by the standards of Westeros, a trial by combat is perfectly legal and a trial by judge is likely to be more than a little biased but that doesn't mean both options aren't valid.

So please, stop with the crazy alternate timelines.  We know happens.  Ned takes responsibility, which makes the whole thing legal (if it wasn't before, when the Hand decreed that Tyrion was guilty).  If Tyrion was judged guilty, then killing him is NOT a crime.  Tywin begins his chevauchee before hearing of what happens to Tyrion; in other words, the war begins before the trial ends.  And even Tywin doesn't pretend like he's in the right; his whole plan is to draw Ned into the Riverlands, capture him, exchange him for Tyrion, and declare the whole thing a fait accompli and hope Robert cares as little as he usually does.  There isn't even a veneer of legality.  Which is because, as I said, Tyrion's arrest was perfectly legal by Westerosi standards.  That WE know he's innocent doesn't mean that the evidence isn't against him in OTL, and a person with legal right to order his arrest, does so.  Case closed.  Innocent people get wrongly convicted in our modern justice system too; it sucks, but it isn't an indictment of the system, or mean that the whole process was illegal.

[cpg2016]

20 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

While Duskendale and to a lesser degree Maidenpool were weakened by the growth of King's Landing, the riverlands are wealthy (but not as well off as the westerlands or the Reach). 

Wasn't trying to say it's poor, merely that external factors have weakened it's economic strength.  One of the main ways the Tully's can monetize the wealth of the Riverlands is through trade; as that trade is diverted to Kings Landing instead of Duskendale or Maidenpool, they lose out on revenue, and therefore power.

[Nittanian]

31 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Wasn't trying to say it's poor, merely that external factors have weakened it's economic strength.  One of the main ways the Tully's can monetize the wealth of the Riverlands is through trade; as that trade is diverted to Kings Landing instead of Duskendale or Maidenpool, they lose out on revenue, and therefore power.

Ah, I agree with that. The lack of larger settlements at the mouths of the Trident and the Blackwater (prior to Aegon's Conquest) aren't very believable to me.

[devilish]

2 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Again, we have NO IDEA what sense of "jurisdiction" entails in Westeros.  If you want to use a modern sense, then he should have been taken to Winterfell, where the crime was committed.

Ned tells Robert that he ordered the arrest.  Which means, it is perfectly legal of Cat to execute it (or anyone).  And when Robert finds out, he just doesn't give a shit.  Which means that in the absence of a countermanding order from the King, the Hand is the highest authority in the land.  Which means, AGAIN, that Tyrion's imprisonment is legal.  And while his trial is barbaric, by the standards of Westeros, a trial by combat is perfectly legal and a trial by judge is likely to be more than a little biased but that doesn't mean both options aren't valid.

So please, stop with the crazy alternate timelines.  We know happens.  Ned takes responsibility, which makes the whole thing legal (if it wasn't before, when the Hand decreed that Tyrion was guilty).  If Tyrion was judged guilty, then killing him is NOT a crime.  Tywin begins his chevauchee before hearing of what happens to Tyrion; in other words, the war begins before the trial ends.  And even Tywin doesn't pretend like he's in the right; his whole plan is to draw Ned into the Riverlands, capture him, exchange him for Tyrion, and declare the whole thing a fait accompli and hope Robert cares as little as he usually does.  There isn't even a veneer of legality.  Which is because, as I said, Tyrion's arrest was perfectly legal by Westerosi standards.  That WE know he's innocent doesn't mean that the evidence isn't against him in OTL, and a person with legal right to order his arrest, does so.  Case closed.  Innocent people get wrongly convicted in our modern justice system too; it sucks, but it isn't an indictment of the system, or mean that the whole process was illegal.

This is possibly the only incident when Cersei, Jamie and Tywin joined forces in favour of Tyrion. Cersei confronted Robert which ended up with her being at the receiving end of a slap. Jamie broke his vows as KG for the first time since Aerys death to assault Ned and Tywin, whom had always showed restraint when confronting kings called the banners and sent Gregor to cause havoc in the Riverlands. That’s not the reaction of a family being at the receiving end of a totally legal procedure.

Also note that when Lysa took control over the situation she opted to send Tyrion to the sky cell to break him and force a confession from him. If there was ample prove for him to die then she wouldn’t need to break him in the first place.

And we know exactly how things work. When Gregor caused havoc in the Riverlands the people at the Riverland went to KL (in the absence of Hoster being ill) to demand the king’s justice. I repeat, KL neither Winterfell nor the Eyrie.

To conclude what Cat did was outrageous and could have led to a civil war.

[cpg2016]

1 hour ago, devilish said:

This is possibly the only incident when Cersei, Jamie and Tywin joined forces in favour of Tyrion. Cersei confronted Robert which ended up with her being at the receiving end of a slap. Jamie broke his vows as KG for the first time since Aerys death to assault Ned and Tywin, whom had always showed restraint when confronting kings called the banners and sent Gregor to cause havoc in the Riverlands. That’s not the reaction of a family being at the receiving end of a totally legal procedure.

No, it's the reaction of a family at the insult to one of their members.  Tywin hates Tyrion, but Tyrion is a Lannister, so he has to act.  Ditto Cersei.  You don't seem to understand the degree to which identity is wrapped up in family; Tywin demands respect for his family, and a perceived assault or slight upon one is an assault upon all.

Jaime did not break his vows as a Kingsguard when he attacked Ned.  I don't know anything in his vows about the Hand.  I do know that sleeping with the Queen, and impregnating her no less, is treason... so he's been breaking his Kingsguard vow repeatedly for well over a decade.

Look, your weird alternate history notwithstanding, every single non-Lannister character we encounter treats the arrest as legal.  The men of the Vale, with their prickly honor, think it's legal.  The Riverlanders who seize him think it's legal.  No one in the capital aside from Cersei and Jaime seem to think it's illegal.  Obviously the Lannisters will be pissed, but it's everyone else who has a more unbiased view... and to a man (and woman), they disagree with you.  People think it's rash... but that isn't the same as wrong.

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Also note that when Lysa took control over the situation she opted to send Tyrion to the sky cell to break him and force a confession from him. If there was ample prove for him to die then she wouldn’t need to break him in the first place.

Because a confession is more damning than anything else.  Besides which, there isn't any other place to keep Tyrion.  He isn't a guest, he's a prisoner, and one who threatened his captors to their face.

In fact, now that I'm reading it, Tyrion himself insists that the seizure is legal.  He says that Cersei should insist that Robert sit in judgement himself, and that Eddard can't countersay that or it would insult Robert's honor.  Which implies VERY strongly the current situation is legal, or at least accords with precedent, and that the king is more like a court of last appeal.

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And we know exactly how things work. When Gregor caused havoc in the Riverlands the people at the Riverland went to KL (in the absence of Hoster being ill) to demand the king’s justice. I repeat, KL neither Winterfell nor the Eyrie.

OK.... which says nothing?  Winterfell is way further away and it's Lord is gone, and the Vale is probably equally far... but also doesn't have a real lord at the moment, with Jon Arryn dead.  And Hoster Tully is basically at death's door.  The highest, most powerful source of authority is Kings Landing.

Plus, in this instance, the problem is that Tywin is sponsoring the violence, which means someone with more power and authority is needed.  Which means the King.

Moreover, Eddard, as Hand, has the power to command Tyrion arrested.  A bunch of smallfolk don't really have a right to arrest the Mountain, even if they could.

The point is, dealing with 500 armed raiders is a much different story than arresting one dwarf.  And the solution thereto is much different.

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To conclude what Cat did was outrageous and could have led to a civil war.

Conclude whatever you want, but the story disagrees.  Tyrion is arrested the to general complaint of no one except his immediate family.  By contrast, Clegane's reaving of the Riverlands is generally acknowledged to be illegal and within the purview of the King to correct.  One was ordered in the King's name, by the King's Hand.  The other... was a punitive chevauchee meant to capture said Hand in battle and exchange him for Tyrion.  So conclude away, but both common sense and text supports my position.

Tywin's insistence on a military response might have led to his being deposed as Lord Paramount of the Westerlands.  This cannot be stressed enough -  he rebelled against the Iron Throne.  Tyrion's POV chapters make it clear that there are legal ways for his father and family to protest his seizure aside from violently raping, enslaving, and killing innocent people.  Tywin chose to do none of those things, and instead decided to wage an open war in the hopes of capturing the Hand (illegally) and trading him for his son.

Did Catelyn act rashly?  Yes, but she still has (she thinks) convincing proofs and witnesses to Tyrion's guilt, certainly enough to convict in a court of the sort we see in Westeros, and she has the implicit legal backing of the Hand of the King (in other words, absolute legal authority).  SO rash, yes - illegal?  Absolutely not.

As for Cersei, remember that the only way she can even make Robert consider that Cat's actions were illegal is by lying through her teeth about Ned's "attack" on Jaime.

[The Bard of Banefort]

One of the reasons why I find the Ironborn so fascinating (I seem to be talking about them a lot these days haha) is because while the Greyjoys are likely the least wealthy of the great houses, they seem to have the most loyal subjects. I guess you could attribute that to them being so culturally "othered," but then again so is Dorne, and they have a history of disloyal subjects. On that note, I'm confused as to how the Yronwoods still retain so much influence when they fought for the Blackfyres in three different rebellions. House Peake lost two-thirds of their land after fighting in one, so I find it a bit puzzling. 

[Bernie Mac]

41 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

 

Conclude whatever you want, but the story disagrees.  Tyrion is arrested the to general complaint of no one except his immediate family.

Are you missing the King's response, the person who decides the laws?

"Abductions on the kingsroad and drunken slaughter in my streets," the king said. "I will not have it, Ned."

Surely the King has the final say on what is and is not legal and he did not see that arrest as legal. Nor for that matter did many others. We hear Varys talk about the situation in secret and he does not think of it as a legal arrest

 Yet Lord Stark's the one who troubles my sleep. He has the bastard, he has the book, and soon enough he'll have the truth. And now his wife has abducted Tyrion Lannister, thanks to Littlefinger's meddling. 

Even Jon Snow at the Wall can see what her actions were. 

"Lady Stark is not my mother," Jon reminded him sharply. Tyrion Lannister had been a friend to him. If Lord Eddard was killed, she would be as much to blame as the queen. "My lord, what of my sisters? Arya and Sansa, they were with my father, do you know—"

 

Cat fucked up. No one but her immediate family thought what she did made was legal. 

 

[cpg2016]

58 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Are you missing the King's response, the person who decides the laws?

"Abductions on the kingsroad and drunken slaughter in my streets," the king said. "I will not have it, Ned."

Surely the King has the final say on what is and is not legal and he did not see that arrest as legal. Nor for that matter did many others. We hear Varys talk about the situation in secret and he does not think of it as a legal arrest

Yes, well seeing as the King never bothers to correct Ned or tell him to have Tyrion released, this isn't exactly an example of a royal rebuke.  And look at the second part of the statement!  Robert is wrong in the same breath as he calls Tyrion's arrest an abduction, because Ned clearly isn't responsible for the "slaughter" in the streets, Jaime is.  In fact, given the way in which Cersei is trying to manipulate the PR aspect of this, it's actually more suggestive that Tyrion was taken legally, or else she wouldn't need to lump it in with the "slaughter" and Ned ostensibly being on his way from a whorehouse.

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Yet Lord Stark's the one who troubles my sleep. He has the bastard, he has the book, and soon enough he'll have the truth. And now his wife has abducted Tyrion Lannister, thanks to Littlefinger's meddling. 

Varys doesn't know that Ned sanctioned the arrest.  Again, you keep forgetting one thing; Ned Stark, the Hand of the King, okayed Tyrion's arrest.  Which makes it legal, full stop.  The only person who gets to countermand the legality of that proclamation is Robert, who... very pointedly, does no such thing.

Let me ask you something; if Tyrion had murdered someone in cold blood on the road, does he still have the kind of diplomatic immunity your giving him?  I think the answer would be a hearty "no", he is responsible for the crimes he commits.  Now, we as relatively omniscient readers know he happens to be innocent of this crime, but even a modern court would hold that Cat arrested Tyrion on reasonable suspicion. She has a statement that the murder belonged to Tyrion, she "knows" the Lannisters are making a power-play in the capital and are no friend to her family... it's not an unreasonable accusation.

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Even Jon Snow at the Wall can see what her actions were. 

"Lady Stark is not my mother," Jon reminded him sharply. Tyrion Lannister had been a friend to him. If Lord Eddard was killed, she would be as much to blame as the queen. "My lord, what of my sisters? Arya and Sansa, they were with my father, do you know—"

 

Jon Snow is hardly an unbiased source from a personal perspective, and given his whole story throughout, hardly the guy to be consulting about the finer points of the law.

Again, all that matters is that the Hand of King sanctioned the arrest, and was never ordered otherwise by the King.   At the end of the day, that's the law, whatever you want your alternate universe to be.  All we see is the second highest legal authority in the land condoning the arrest of Tyrion Lannister, and his condemning of Tywin Lannister for his illegal-as-hell chevauchee through the Riverlands.  Until you show me any piece of dialogue where Robert orders Ned to rescind either order, or rescinds them himself, you have no footing on which to stand.

[cpg2016]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

One of the reasons why I find the Ironborn so fascinating (I seem to be talking about them a lot these days haha) is because while the Greyjoys are likely the least wealthy of the great houses, they seem to have the most loyal subjects. I guess you could attribute that to them being so culturally "othered," but then again so is Dorne, and they have a history of disloyal subjects. On that note, I'm confused as to how the Yronwoods still retain so much influence when they fought for the Blackfyres in three different rebellions. House Peake lost two-thirds of their land after fighting in one, so I find it a bit puzzling. 

Well, the Dornish have multiple different cultures within Dorne, with the sandy and stony Dornish, and the Martells and Yronwoods represent the leaders of both factions.

And we do see some differences in the ironborn.  Lord Blacktyde is killed for not accepting Euron.  And for the most part, the ironborn stay out of the major conflicts in Westeros proper, and just take the chance to reave and pillage, so we don't really get an example of a time when the kingdom splits.  Interestingly, the other place we don't get this is the North, which is united through most of the major conflicts in Westeros, almost uniquely so.  They all fall in line for the Dance, for the Blackfyre Rebellions, and for Robert's Rebellion.

[Seeeyeare]

5 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Yes, well seeing as the King never bothers to correct Ned or tell him to have Tyrion released, this isn't exactly an example of a royal rebuke.  

The King of the Seven Kingdom calls Catelyn's act an abduction (not an arrest) and he later states that he would not have it. You can argue your absurd opinion as much as you want, but please don't change the meaning of words and quotes. 

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In fact, given the way in which Cersei is trying to manipulate the PR aspect of this, it's actually more suggestive that Tyrion was taken legally, or else she wouldn't need to lump it in with the "slaughter" and Ned ostensibly being on his way from a whorehouse.

Citation needed that Robert has been swayed by Cersei in regards to the abduction. Thanks. 

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Varys doesn't know that Ned sanctioned the arrest.

Citation needed, thanks. 

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Again, you keep forgetting one thing; Ned Stark, the Hand of the King, okayed Tyrion's arrest.  Which makes it legal, full stop. 

If an action needs to be rendered legal by the King's (Hand's) command, it means the act was illegal prior to be rendered legal. It also means that the 7 provinces (kingdoms) do not have legal say in their own jurisdiction over nobles of other provinces (kingdoms).

So this part of your entertainingly awful argument: 

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OK.... which says nothing?  Winterfell is way further away and it's Lord is gone, and the Vale is probably equally far... but also doesn't have a real lord at the moment, with Jon Arryn dead.  And Hoster Tully is basically at death's door.  The highest, most powerful source of authority is Kings Landing.

Falls apart. Good job arguing against yourself! 

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Let me ask you something; if Tyrion had murdered someone in cold blood on the road, does he still have the kind of diplomatic immunity your giving him?  I think the answer would be a hearty "no", he is responsible for the crimes he commits.

Lovely straw man! No one has disputed that Tyrion should be judged. What is being disputed is if Catelyn had the right to take matters into her own hands.

Please debate sincerely. You are misrepresenting what others are stating.

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Again, all that matters is that the Hand of King sanctioned the arrest, and was never ordered otherwise by the King.   At the end of the day, that's the law, whatever you want your alternate universe to be. 

Another straw man! No one stated that the Hand or King doesn't have the ability to render actions legal. The original assertion was that Catelyn acted illegally. 

To make things simple for you to understand: If a child buys a piece of furniture without a parent's knowing, the parent has the option to either 1) ratify the contract of sale or 2) pull out of the contract of sale. In the same way, Catelyn committed an act that is illegal. An act that can only be "ratified" by someone with sufficient legal authority.   

[Free Northman Reborn]

Its not about the legality of Catelyn's act, but about her not taking into account the potential for consequences other than her desired outcome. Just like in the case of her releasing Jaime Lannister. It is an example of her tendency to become so fixated on her narrow personal priorities that she downplays or rationalizes away the obvious flaws in the action she is about to take.

This tendency towards emotional intensity bordering on obsession is evidenced early on in her reaction to Bran's fall, it is seen in her ongoing  internal monologue after the death of Ned, it directly leads to her irrational actions when she abducts Tyrion and it is evidenced when she irrationally releases Jaime Lannister, the consequences be damned.

We see her downplay Rickard Karstark's similar losses in an almost casual way as long as her son is protected, and ultimately we see her go totally mad at the very end, when Robb is murdered.

In short, it seems evident that there might be a common genetic source for Lysa's mental fragility, and that Catelyn displays a variation thereof at various points in the story, culminating in her final breakdown at the very end, which serves to fuel the Lady Stoneheart persona thereafter.

[Graydon Hicks]

35 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Its not about the legality of Catelyn's act, but about her not taking into account the potential for consequences other than her desired outcome. Just like in the case of her releasing Jaime Lannister. It is an example of her tendency to become so fixated on her narrow personal priorities that she downplays or rationalizes away the obvious flaws in the action she is about to take.

This tendency towards emotional intensity bordering on obsession is evidenced early on in her reaction to Bran's fall, it is seen in her ongoing  internal monologue after the death of Ned, it directly leads to her irrational actions when she abducts Tyrion and it is evidenced when she irrationally releases Jaime Lannister, the consequences be damned.

We see her downplay Rickard Karstark's similar losses in an almost casual way as long as her son is protected, and ultimately we see her go totally mad at the very end, when Robb is murdered.

In short, it seems evident that there might be a common genetic source for Lysa's mental fragility, and that Catelyn displays a variation thereof at various points in the story, culminating in her final breakdown at the very end, which serves to fuel the Lady Stoneheart persona thereafter.

i agree, i think she may have the small mental flaw as lysa, but its far more mild in comparison. but it does show he own far more overly mothering nature. it snot quite as bad as cersie or lysa. but cersie did she her children as her children, to be protected and nurtured, but as her children, as pieces of herself that she is loath to be parted with, as a factor of her narcissism. for lysa, its less a nature of narcissism,  seeing her children as part of her person, but a need for dependency, for love. i think her mind, the only way to prove that someone loves her was for them to be dependent, to need her.

for cat, i think she has let her children grow, but she has difficulty letting them learn to fly on their own. we have seen how hard it is for her to robb as grown man, never mind seeing him as a lord or king. she feels the same way concerning sansa and arya, and she is willing to do anything to protect them. or any of her family. that very mental illness, so pronounce in lysa, yet so mild but present in cat, might be found in more of her family, the tullys, if you go back a ways, it might even be the reason why their words are Family, Duty, Honour.

it also seems that she expects the same filial piety in others, like when she threatens the life one of Walder Frey's children. but Walder is callous and says he can make more anyway, which goes on to my belief that even if Robb had kept his bargain with the Frey's they would have still betrayed if Tywin offered them a better deal. they just might have imprisoned robb instead of killing him, to be handed over to the lannisters.

[The Bard of Banefort]

It's interesting to see Cat's emotional intensity being discussed here, since I think this is something that she and Arya have in common. When they're clear-headed, they can be cunning, pragmatic, and quick on their feet, but they're both also prone to these huge, all-encompassing bouts of emotion that completely consumes them and prevents them from focusing on anything else. Even if Lady Stoneheart "isn't Cat," to quote GRRM, Cat always had it in her, just like how Arya also has a susceptibility to violence and revenge in her. 

[Graydon Hicks]

so maybe arya inherited some that instabilty? ill not say its not as pronounced as what crops up amongst the targaryens, but given that all noble house practice some form of light incest, usually "kissing cousin" level incest, its not impossible that certain genetic peculiarities appear on occasion. in fact, what do you want to bet that the infamous bartheon rage is one of those things? or that lannister cruelty? 

[Free Northman Reborn]

9 minutes ago, Graydon Hicks said:

so maybe arya inherited some that instabilty? ill not say its not as pronounced as what crops up amongst the targaryens, but given that all noble house practice some form of light incest, usually "kissing cousin" level incest, its not impossible that certain genetic peculiarities appear on occasion. in fact, what do you want to bet that the infamous bartheon rage is one of those things? or that lannister cruelty? 

Well we just have to bear in mind that George does not even make an attempt to follow real world genetic rules - the Baratheon black hair serving as "proof" of Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen's illegitimacy being a case in point. So I would be careful not to try and use genetic rules to figure out long standing personality traits or even physical traits in various families. The so called Stark look, as an example. The amount of Brandon the Builder's DNA in any given Stark of today, 8000 years later, must be minute. So any Stark kid that is mentioned as having the "Stark look", would be kind of a freak occurrence, if we consider that this person would have just as much Flint, Umber, Glover, Blackwood, Ryswell and every other matrilineal line that married into the Stark family over the ages.

Ok, maybe not exactly as much, as there has been low level inbreeding in most great families, but certainly not enough for the founding DNA not to be vastly diluted over an 8000 year period.

So to me, genetics is not the answer. It's perhaps more akin to some kind of "spiritual" characteristic that is bestowed on certain family lines, which rears its head at various times. This is a magical story after all. So think of a kind of family curse, or family blessing in the form of certain characteristics that follow the bloodline, irrespective of the actual quantity of DNA that actually remains of the  House's founder.

[a black swan]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It's interesting to see Cat's emotional intensity being discussed here, since I think this is something that she and Arya have in common. When they're clear-headed, they can be cunning, pragmatic, and quick on their feet, but they're both also prone to these huge, all-encompassing bouts of emotion that completely consumes them and prevents them from focusing on anything else. Even if Lady Stoneheart "isn't Cat," to quote GRRM, Cat always had it in her, just like how Arya also has a susceptibility to violence and revenge in her. 

Wow, I couldn't agree less. 

[devilish]

11 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Yes, well seeing as the King never bothers to correct Ned or tell him to have Tyrion released, this isn't exactly an example of a royal rebuke.  And look at the second part of the statement!  Robert is wrong in the same breath as he calls Tyrion's arrest an abduction, because Ned clearly isn't responsible for the "slaughter" in the streets, Jaime is.  In fact, given the way in which Cersei is trying to manipulate the PR aspect of this, it's actually more suggestive that Tyrion was taken legally, or else she wouldn't need to lump it in with the "slaughter" and Ned ostensibly being on his way from a whorehouse.

Varys doesn't know that Ned sanctioned the arrest.  Again, you keep forgetting one thing; Ned Stark, the Hand of the King, okayed Tyrion's arrest.  Which makes it legal, full stop.  The only person who gets to countermand the legality of that proclamation is Robert, who... very pointedly, does no such thing.

Let me ask you something; if Tyrion had murdered someone in cold blood on the road, does he still have the kind of diplomatic immunity your giving him?  I think the answer would be a hearty "no", he is responsible for the crimes he commits.  Now, we as relatively omniscient readers know he happens to be innocent of this crime, but even a modern court would hold that Cat arrested Tyrion on reasonable suspicion. She has a statement that the murder belonged to Tyrion, she "knows" the Lannisters are making a power-play in the capital and are no friend to her family... it's not an unreasonable accusation.

Jon Snow is hardly an unbiased source from a personal perspective, and given his whole story throughout, hardly the guy to be consulting about the finer points of the law.

Again, all that matters is that the Hand of King sanctioned the arrest, and was never ordered otherwise by the King.   At the end of the day, that's the law, whatever you want your alternate universe to be.  All we see is the second highest legal authority in the land condoning the arrest of Tyrion Lannister, and his condemning of Tywin Lannister for his illegal-as-hell chevauchee through the Riverlands.  Until you show me any piece of dialogue where Robert orders Ned to rescind either order, or rescinds them himself, you have no footing on which to stand.

I think you’re underestimating the fact that all lions pulled the same rope on this one for someone whom Tywin/Cersei didn’t like very much. So we can presume that its all about honour! However, how important is honour for the lions?

Tywin was at the receiving end of many insults in the past from Aerys humiliating his wife with sexist comments right to denying Cersei the honour to marry Rhaegar and appointing Jamie as KG. Yet, Tywin never lifted one finger against the King until he was 100% sure the rebellion was won. Honour is hardly important for the twins either. Cersei slept with half of her family including her own brother. Jamie on the other hand killed the mad king and cuckolded Robert at every opportunity. These sort of actions could ruin a family reputation forever. Yet Cersei/Jamie didn’t care.

So Cat’s insult was such a big insult towards the Lannisters that it was able to push an entire family who hardly care less about honour to throw caution to the wind and defend a person most Lannisters hate. Something btw, that even Robert (ie whose bias towards everything that is Stark is quite renowned) described it as abduction. I can’t see how this can be possible qualify as decent let alone legal.
 

[Graydon Hicks]

8 minutes ago, devilish said:

I think you’re underestimating the fact that all lions pulled the same rope on this one for someone whom Tywin/Cersei didn’t like very much. So we can presume that its all about honour! However, how important is honour for the lions?

Tywin was at the receiving end of many insults in the past from Aerys humiliating his wife with sexist comments right to denying Cersei the honour to marry Rhaegar and appointing Jamie as KG. Yet, Tywin never lifted one finger against the King until he was 100% sure the rebellion was won. Honour is hardly important for the twins either. Cersei slept with half of her family including her own brother. Jamie on the other hand killed the mad king and cuckolded Robert at every opportunity. These sort of actions could ruin a family reputation forever. Yet Cersei/Jamie didn’t care.

So Cat’s insult was such a big insult towards the Lannisters that it was able to push an entire family who hardly care less about honour to throw caution to the wind and defend a person most Lannisters hate. Something btw, that even Robert (ie whose bias towards everything that is Stark is quite renowned) described it as abduction. I can’t see how this can be possible qualify as decent let alone legal.
 

well, please remember that the lannisters, especially tywin, dont really care that much about family, but rather the family name, and the importance of the House. tywin was not upset the Tyrion was taken by cat, but that tyrion Lannister was taken. to the lannister's house status is everything, and they are willing to tear apart a kingdom to preserve it. tywin said it himself, that the one day a lannister could be taken, abducted, apprehended in anyway with out the house taking steps about it, was the day the house was no longer feared or respected.

of cource we have also seen how the lannisters, especially cersie, see their house as the obvious superior to all the others, regardless of equivalence of rank as lords, or lords paramount. 

[devilish]

1 hour ago, Graydon Hicks said:

well, please remember that the lannisters, especially tywin, dont really care that much about family, but rather the family name, and the importance of the House. tywin was not upset the Tyrion was taken by cat, but that tyrion Lannister was taken. to the lannister's house status is everything, and they are willing to tear apart a kingdom to preserve it. tywin said it himself, that the one day a lannister could be taken, abducted, apprehended in anyway with out the house taking steps about it, was the day the house was no longer feared or respected.

of cource we have also seen how the lannisters, especially cersie, see their house as the obvious superior to all the others, regardless of equivalence of rank as lords, or lords paramount. 

Honour is not important for the Lannisters. If it was then Tywin would have been the first to join the rebellion following the many insults thrown at him. Jamie would have never backstabbed the king and he would have reacted to Robert’s insults and Cersei would have taken action over his husband’s constant betrayals.

The Lannisters (apart from Jamie) couldn’t care less about Tyrion either. I don’t think that they wished him dead. If that was the case then rest assured Tywin would have deposed of him long before GOT even started. However they couldn’t care less of him living either and they certainly didn’t want him to inherit CR. That would explain why Tywin instructed the imp to lead the Mountain clans to battle and why they were so keen of putting him into trial for a crime (Joffrey’s murder) he didn’t committed.

What is important for the Lannisters is power and power often come by being cautious and wait for the right moment to pounce.  Tywin endured years of humiliations from Aerys and after Robert’s rebellion he was expected to foot his bills. Yet he still got what he wanted (ie a blondie on the IT). Cersei took her revenge on Robert by sitting tight and making sure that the next heir to the IT would be a Lannister not a Baratheon. Such strategy served them well during the war of 5 kings up until Joffrey’s death. If things went according to plans, Tyrion’s children would one day rule the North. Genna’s son would have inherited Riverrun, Lancel Lannister would get Darry Castle, Tommen would probably end up with the Stormlands, Joffrey’s son would have gotten his hands over Dragonstone and Jamie would be pushed out of the KG to take his rightful place in CR. The Starks would be wiped out but that would be Walder’s fault. The Tullys on the other hand would be reduced to landed knights, if of course, they obey the lions. Such ruthless but equally patient approach had served the Lannisters well for so many years.

 That approach contrasts heavily to how the Lannisters acted following Tyrion’s abduction. Jamie assaulted the hand of the King, Cersei confronted Robert which ended up being slapped like some wrench and Tywin called the banners .The 1 million dollar question is why? Its out of Lannister nature to take rash decisions (especially Tywin) and they did so for someone they didn’t really like. The answer to that must be, that what Cat did, was so big that the Lannisters couldn’t ignore (or pay) in their ruthless and patient way.

[Philokles]

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It's interesting to see Cat's emotional intensity being discussed here, since I think this is something that she and Arya have in common. When they're clear-headed, they can be cunning, pragmatic, and quick on their feet, but they're both also prone to these huge, all-encompassing bouts of emotion that completely consumes them and prevents them from focusing on anything else. Even if Lady Stoneheart "isn't Cat," to quote GRRM, Cat always had it in her, just like how Arya also has a susceptibility to violence and revenge in her. 

It seems more like that's the wolfblood in Arya, combined with her high levels of empathy and an upbringing that emphasised the importance of justice. Whilst there are times early in the books where her emotions get the better of her, these were always short lived and as the series unfolds she learns to channel them. That is born out in the differing approaches between LS and Arya. LS cares only about vengeance - kill as many Freys and Lannisters as is possible. Arya meanwhile is far more even handed and just, only including those she knows personally to have committed heinous crimes on her list.