will jon snow have a POV chapter in TWOW.

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

AND the thread is about whether LC Jon Snow has a POV in WoW. I think Jon gets six with Daenerys weighing in at 11.

Not sure if Dany can have that many in light of the fact that all POVs are supposed to be back in TWoW. 

And the number of Jon's chapters will greatly depend on the point in the book when he comes back. I'm not sure that's going to happen quickly. I could also see at least one Ghost chapter while he is still 'dead'. Would depend on what Ghost-Jon is going to do.

[snow is the man]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure if Dany can have that many in light of the fact that all POVs are supposed to be back in TWoW. 

And the number of Jon's chapters will greatly depend on the point in the book when he comes back. I'm not sure that's going to happen quickly. I could also see at least one Ghost chapter while he is still 'dead'. Would depend on what Ghost-Jon is going to do.

See the problem with this that I realized (a few hours after starting this thread) was that if he stays dead for too long his body will be severly damaged. It isn't like it's freezing cold at the wall yet (remember the wall was weeping when the wildlings came through). And even if it was cold then the body would be severly damamged from the cold. I think it will be early on now or they will have to overlook that

[snow is the man]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon was killed in TWoW. At least his body was. His spirit should be in Ghost, gradually losing more and more of his humanity.

Even if he wasn't killed by the assassins - which strikes me as very unlikely - he would still die quickly after the injuries he received. He is a controversial figure to say the least. Who would want to save him and for what reason? Even if there were people there who could work such magics - and it is quite clear that it would have to be magics - they would have better things to do than to try to save him.

Trying to undo/fight against Marsh's coup, trying to save their own lives, trying to do whatever the hell they want now that they can. Jon's murder frees the wildlings from the vow they grudgingly swore to him. Now they are free to abandon the NW and go down south to find some place warm. That's what the majority of them wants. They did not leave their villages to fight against the Others at the side of the hated crows.

 

I still think this will be done by mel burning the princess shieree. It will show just how insane that queen is when she lets mel burn her only child for someone she didn't even like. And if mel did it because she thought stannis was dead then he may find out and even thought he wasn't close to his daughter I can't imagine he will be pleased with mel

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, snow is the man said:

I still think this will be done by mel burning the princess shieree. It will show just how insane that queen is when she lets mel burn her only child for someone she didn't even like. And if mel did it because she thought stannis was dead then he may find out and even thought he wasn't close to his daughter I can't imagine he will be pleased with mel

That is not very likely. For one, there is no hint whatsoever that Melisandre is believing that Stannis is dead, nor any hint that she would actually believe that without good evidence (and the Pink Letter is not good evidence). She thinks the man is her god's chosen hero and the savior of mankind. He cannot die, at least not before the last battle.

In addition, if Melisandre intended to conduct a resurrection spell by means of a blood sacrifice (we don't even know whether she can do that) there are many other people available at the Wall she would use before targeting Princess Shireen. There is Mance's son (Gilly's in truth, but Mel doesn't know that), the three daughters of Gerrick Kingsblood, Gerrick Kingsblood himself, Val, Axell Florent, etc.

Melisandre certainly is capable of killing Shireen but she doesn't kill lightly. We know she did what she could to spare the life of Davos' son. She is not going to jump on the first chance to kill Stannis' only child.

While Stannis is believed to be or rumored to be dead nobody in Stannis' camp at the Wall could afford to kill Shireen, not even Melisandre. It would completely destroy what's left of Stannis' cause. Melisandre is pragmatic enough to understand that. Only if she could work a spell that would teleport a resurrected Stannis from wherever his corpse lies right now to the Wall while it resurrects the corpse would such a sacrifice make sense. And it is very unlikely that George is going to take such a comical route.

Unlike the show, Queen Selyse actually loves her only child (unlike Stannis, who never showed any affection for Shireen in the books) and Selyse's uncle Ser Axell is also there. The idea that anyone among Selyse's men would go along with the ridiculous idea of sacrificing Shireen - who would now be the Queen Regnant of the Seven Kingdoms if Stannis was truly dead - is not very likely. Shireen would be the perfect pawn for both Selyse and especially Ser Axell.

In addition, while Melisandre doesn't know what happened to Stannis' corpse she cannot possibly try to resurrect him. If he has been beheaded, cut to pieces, fed to the dogs, etc. it should be virtually impossible to resurrect him. That is made clear when Arya asks Thoros and Beric whether they can bring back her father.

It is much more likely that Stannis is going to burn Shireen some point in the future of the books, most likely in a fight or campaign that actually involves the Others. The stakes have to be very high for Stannis to do something like that. It must be a choice between certain death for everyone (in Stannis' army) and the small chance that such a sacrifice could either help win the battle or prevent the death of everyone somehow. It has to be a choice between Shireen dying and Shireen dying and coming back as a blue-eyed wight.

It should still be the deed that breaks Stannis, though.

[zandru]

I like Lord Varys's suggestion that Jon could be "resurrected" the same way as Thoros brought back Beric Dondarrion - by the kiss during funeral rites. The idea of some "resurrection ceremony" seems to be pulling too much from the show, as opposed to the books. Further, needing a blood sacrifice to bring back Jon ("only life can pay for death") seems unnecessary, given Thoros's experience, and when Beric passed on his "life force" to dead Lady Cat. Also unwise. We had this from Mirri Maz Duur, who need not have been truthful, and very likely, was strongly motivated to wreak as much harm while "saving" Drogo as she could manage. Drogo, his horse, his unborn son - and nearly got Dany, too. Oh, and this drove away Drogo's vast khalasar, so Dany no longer had that at her command.

And (back to Jon) when has Melisandre done anything to restore life, that we've seen? It's just been a succession of ways to kill. When she's burned someone alive, it wasn't to preserve or restore anyone's life, after all.

Jon's last word was "Ghost", giving us hope that if he indeed was killed, his consciousness has taken refuge in his wolf. If so, can it come back to his body? Or any body? Varamyr Sixskins was a highly trained warg, but he appeared to get dead-ended when he transferred out as his body died. Jon was never trained by anybody. I think we'll be lucky to get a "Ghost" chapter.

[sweetsunray]

12 minutes ago, zandru said:

Further, needing a blood sacrifice to bring back Jon ("only life can pay for death") seems unnecessary, given Thoros's experience, and when Beric passed on his "life force" to dead Lady Cat.

Well, with every resurrection a peace of Beric and Thoros died. Thoros said he wasn't sure that if he had to resurrect him again they'd both survive it. So, they were sort of taking life, but inevitably something was lost.

And Beric gave up his own remaining life to resurrect Cat. A life for a life, for sure.

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, zandru said:

I like Lord Varys's suggestion that Jon could be "resurrected" the same way as Thoros brought back Beric Dondarrion - by the kiss during funeral rites. The idea of some "resurrection ceremony" seems to be pulling too much from the show, as opposed to the books.

Spoiler

The show clearly drew their scenario in an utterly ridiculous manner from the plans for the books. George's explanation for Jon's return is going to be complex, not ridiculously unmotivated

.Jon's body is going to get some sort funeral eventually. And considering how close Melisandre was to Jon (or tried to be) and taking the fact into account that she also officiated at the Alys-Sigorn wedding it is very likely she is also going to give Jon his last rites. The kiss of fire is part of the standard funeral rites of the red priests so she is going to use that one. But unlike with Beric and Catelyn this is not going to bring his spirit back from the dead, only his body.

21 minutes ago, zandru said:

Further, needing a blood sacrifice to bring back Jon ("only life can pay for death") seems unnecessary, given Thoros's experience, and when Beric passed on his "life force" to dead Lady Cat. Also unwise. We had this from Mirri Maz Duur, who need not have been truthful, and very likely, was strongly motivated to wreak as much harm while "saving" Drogo as she could manage. Drogo, his horse, his unborn son - and nearly got Dany, too. Oh, and this drove away Drogo's vast khalasar, so Dany no longer had that at her command.

We don't know whether Drogo was actually resurrected or merely magically healed when death was certain if you tried to use conventional medical means.

The idea that death can pay for life in the sense that a dead human being can be restored to perfect health and wholeness by means of a blood sacrifice is not attested as of yet in this story. And I'd argue that this goes against the idea that magic is pretty expensive. A person going through - or *surviving* - a resurrection spell is not going to be the same afterwards. No matter how good the spell worked.

21 minutes ago, zandru said:

And (back to Jon) when has Melisandre done anything to restore life, that we've seen? It's just been a succession of ways to kill. When she's burned someone alive, it wasn't to preserve or restore anyone's life, after all.

That is an important point, too. We don't know Mel knows a spell to bring dead people back - and even if she did there is little chance that she would want to bring back Jon. And if she believed Stannis was dead she would have reacted much differently in ADwD and would also go looking for his corpse instead of conducting some magical ritual at the Wall.

21 minutes ago, zandru said:

Jon's last word was "Ghost", giving us hope that if he indeed was killed, his consciousness has taken refuge in his wolf. If so, can it come back to his body? Or any body? Varamyr Sixskins was a highly trained warg, but he appeared to get dead-ended when he transferred out as his body died. Jon was never trained by anybody. I think we'll be lucky to get a "Ghost" chapter.

That is the important question. Who is going to help him with that? It might be that Jon's resurrected body is going to draw his spirit back into his original body, it could be that a spell or ritual is necessary to restore him to the body. We don't know. 

A Ghost chapter would make sense if Jon is very confused after his death and just runs off into the night. He might do something like that. If that's the case then there is a chance for him having a story of sorts before he comes back to life.

22 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, with every resurrection a peace of Beric and Thoros died. Thoros said he wasn't sure that if he had to resurrect him again they'd both survive it. So, they were sort of taking life, but inevitably something was lost.

And Beric gave up his own remaining life to resurrect Cat. A life for a life, for sure.

We don't know whether it was death or the resurrection that took something from Beric's personality. He did not only resurrect six times, he also died six times. And Catelyn only resurrected once yet she isn't the same either, most likely because she was dead as long as was.

In Jon's case we won't see that kind of thing because his spirit is never going to be restored the same way Beric's and Catelyn's was (or Gregor's, if he is still in some sense the same guy he once was) since it is going to hang out in Ghost. But that will have other consequences for him, other effects on his mental state.

His body is never going to be the same. Catelyn and Beric both are unnatural magical creatures. His spirit might not be in the same affected as theirs but his body surely will. There is no way around that.