snow is the man

will jon snow have a POV chapter in TWOW.

27 posts in this topic

I think we will find out about what happened early and likely have him come back at the middle of the book. But I am curious as to what other think? I mean it's obvious he won't die or at least won't stay dead

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I think he won't, or at least not for some time.

(Assuming there is TWOW in the first place).

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I think he is either only injured or is revived rather quickly.  In any case, I expect some POV chapters, although I anticipate the first one to be some ways in (1/3 or so).  Jon is too important a character to not have a POV going forward.  (At least, I hope so; I could be wrong)

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1 minute ago, Nevets said:

I think he is either only injured or is revived rather quickly.

I definitely agree with this.

To the main question, I don't think we will have a Jon POV in TWOW because George has said that he doesn't give POV's to people with too much information because it would give too much of the plot away, like Varys and Baelish, and he also said something about not giving a POV to a king-type figure (but I can't remember this exact wording on this second point).

I am wondering if we may, possibly have another Mel chapter or two, but I think someone else will become the main POV within the first third (?) of the TWOW. That said, I would love a Jon POV, especially if he has any sort of head trip experience like Bran did when he fell from the tower.

 

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Posted (edited)

I don't think that there will be a chapter named Jon any time soon. But I do think that there will be chapters like the Prince of Winterfell or the Wayward Bride.

Edited by The Doctor's Consort

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4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

To the main question, I don't think we will have a Jon POV in TWOW because George has said that he doesn't give POV's to people with too much information because it would give too much of the plot away, like Varys and Baelish, and he also said something about not giving a POV to a king-type figure (but I can't remember this exact wording on this second point).

Jon "knows nothing".  At least, in the sense that Varys and Baelish do, about plots, secrets, and the like.  As for king-types, we already have Daenerys's POV, and seem to recall him saying he regrets not giving Robb a POV.

I'm pretty sure GRRM has said we won't get any more POVs, so Mel is the only other one really in position to cover the Wall, unless Asha or Theon shows up.  ( I think Davos is at Hardhome.  In any case, we won't show up for a while)

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8 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I definitely agree with this.

To the main question, I don't think we will have a Jon POV in TWOW because George has said that he doesn't give POV's to people with too much information because it would give too much of the plot away, like Varys and Baelish, and he also said something about not giving a POV to a king-type figure (but I can't remember this exact wording on this second point).

I am wondering if we may, possibly have another Mel chapter or two, but I think someone else will become the main POV within the first third (?) of the TWOW. That said, I would love a Jon POV, especially if he has any sort of head trip experience like Bran did when he fell from the tower.

 

You just made me drool for this dude... Gods let it be so. :drool::drool:

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7 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Jon "knows nothing".  At least, in the sense that Varys and Baelish do, about plots, secrets, and the like.  As for king-types, we already have Daenerys's POV, and seem to recall him saying he regrets not giving Robb a POV.

I'm pretty sure GRRM has said we won't get any more POVs, so Mel is the only other one really in position to cover the Wall, unless Asha or Theon shows up.  ( I think Davos is at Hardhome.  In any case, we won't show up for a while)

Eh, this all goes back to a sacrifice to gain knowledge. Jon "knows nothing" until he has his near death experience and he wakes up.

True, he did say that about Robb. I had forgotten that one. I am not so sure George is "dead set" on his POV count as he goes. At one point, years ago, he also said "no new POV's", and then the next book showed up with like 3 new POV's. All we can do is speculate :cheers:

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If Sam was still at the Wall, I think there would be a strong possibility for Jon not to have a POV. Instead we have Melisandre now. I love Mel's POV, but I would rather not have her be our sole POV at the Wall in TWOW.

As someone who supports all those JonxVal theories, it would make sense for Jon's POV to be switched out for Val's. However, GRRM is still saying that there won't be any new POVs, so that's out of the question.

One possibility is for Jon to have one POV chapter in TWOW towards the very end, leaving the reader to wonder just how much he's changed until then. If Jon is a consistent POV character in TWOW, however, I imagine writing those chapters was probably pretty frustrating for GRRM. He's talked about how "magical" characters are the hardest to write, and unlike on the show, I do think Jon will be changed by his death and resurrection. 

On a side note, I definitely think GRRM missed a great opportunity by not giving Robb a POV. I'm re-reading the books right now and finding myself feeling so much sympathy for this kid. He's got the weight of the world on his shoulders, and he undergoes a huge transformation in AGOT which would have been fascinating to read about from a first-hand perspective.

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I wish Jon doesn't come back.  Unfortunately for me, I think he will come back.  I just hope he's relegated to non POV and his role in the plot greatly diminished.

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12 hours ago, snow is the man said:

I think we will find out about what happened early and likely have him come back at the middle of the book. But I am curious as to what other think? I mean it's obvious he won't die or at least won't stay dead

yes

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I think we will have some chapters while he is in Ghost like Bran in GOT. He will be absent for some time and he will return towards the end of Winds.

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Posted (edited)

Difficult to imagine he will not have as many POV chapters as before. But I don't think his death and rebirth will leave him as he was. If he is much more, it is possible (but not likely IMO) that GRRM will give him no other POV chapters. If so, will it be Melisandre POV? He may also leave for Winterfell and meet other POV. But anyway, he will be, more than ever, the central character of ASoIaF.

Edited by BalerionTheCat

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Jon is going to be stuck in Ghost and survive his death this way. Hanging out in a wolf's body isn't the way to deep and and insightful knowledge so there is no reason to believe he is going to have too much knowledge to be a POV.

But as this series comes to a close questions have to be answered and mysteries have to be resolved. Which could work pretty well if George adds some 'knowledgeable characters' to the POVs. In that sense Jon could certainly go on some dream-quest to the Unknown K'Dath and learn a lot of stuff in his POV.

As to the number of Jon (or Ghost) chapters in TWoW I've no idea. It depends what happens. But I'd surprised if Jon returned quickly and ended up in a leadership position again. He was killed. That's not something you can ignore or get over easily.

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23 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think he is either only injured or is revived rather quickly.  In any case, I expect some POV chapters, although I anticipate the first one to be some ways in (1/3 or so).  Jon is too important a character to not have a POV going forward.  (At least, I hope so; I could be wrong)

Well Now that I think about it he would have to be revived early or else his body would rot. Even while frozen or cold I don't think it would be wise to have his dead body laying around because it would start to degrade or have some problem.

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Posted (edited)

Jon POV’s throughout the five books.

GoT –9

CoK – 8

SoS – 12

FfC – 0

DwD  13

I’m in the camp that says Jon is wounded, no resurrection needed.

I like what another poster mentioned above. A GoT Bran like chapter while Bran was in a coma.

Jon didn’t seem to like the idea he is a warg. Being out of commission for a while will make him accept his wolf dreams. :unsure:

Iffin’ the reason Jon never felt the 4th knife is because people intervened to stop the attack when he recuperates from his wounds he’s gonna feel a bit angry, confused, betrayed  and perhaps seek a bit of retribution.

Considering all the stuff left open at the end of FfC and DwD, I’m gonna postulate that a Jon POV shows up in the first third of WoW and that he will have approximately 6 chapters.

Having said that, I also have to keep in mind that the likelihood of chapter titles will continue in WoW.

When comparing the five different books that have been published so far and their POV’s the characters with the most POV’s are:

GoT Eddard 15

CoK Tyrion 15

SoS Arya 13

FfC Cersei 10

DwD Jon 13

WoW ---- pure speculation ---Daenerys 11

 

Edit:This winter when when you are snowed in at your home feeling bored take a look at this.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Chapters_Table_of_contents

or this

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/wiki/twow

Damn, summer is almost here, so when you want to stay indoors and feel the cool comfort of your home and are bored browse the links at your convince.

 

Edited by Clegane'sPup
added an edit

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Jon was killed in TWoW. At least his body was. His spirit should be in Ghost, gradually losing more and more of his humanity.

Even if he wasn't killed by the assassins - which strikes me as very unlikely - he would still die quickly after the injuries he received. He is a controversial figure to say the least. Who would want to save him and for what reason? Even if there were people there who could work such magics - and it is quite clear that it would have to be magics - they would have better things to do than to try to save him.

Trying to undo/fight against Marsh's coup, trying to save their own lives, trying to do whatever the hell they want now that they can. Jon's murder frees the wildlings from the vow they grudgingly swore to him. Now they are free to abandon the NW and go down south to find some place warm. That's what the majority of them wants. They did not leave their villages to fight against the Others at the side of the hated crows.

 

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11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon was killed in TWoW. At least his body was. His spirit should be in Ghost, gradually losing more and more of his humanity.

Sorry, LV. I know I am dense and make mistakes, but I'm not understanding your statement.

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1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Sorry, LV. I know I am dense and make mistakes, but I'm not understanding your statement.

You are not dense.

The idea is that Jon Snow's body was killed, and he begins his second life after his death as Varamyr did. I life that's going to take place in Ghost. In that sense Jon never died and is not going to be resurrected in the same sense as Beric and Catelyn were.

Instead, we have a skinchanger at the Wall, Borroq, who is going to realize that Jon is living in Ghost now. That is why ADwD established in Varamyr's, Bran's, and Jon's chapters that skinchangers always recognize each other, regardless whether they meet each other in animal or human form.

Borroq will realize that Jon is not completely gone as soon as he interacts with Ghost. But we don't know how much time is going to pass until that happens. It could happen quickly or it take some time. It will depend on what Ghost-Jon is going to do after he begins his second life.

Jon living in Ghost is not going to help with his return or resurrection, though. It is just going to be the condition for the possibility that he can come back. The other condition is that his body is actually resurrected. And I don't think anybody will have any motive or reason to try to do that. Why should they?

His body will come back to life just as accidental and at random as Beric's body did - when Melisandre, another red priestess, is conducting his funeral. She will give him the same kiss Thoros gave Beric and then something is going to happen. But Jon is likely going to be as, well, vapid and empty as Drogo while his spirit is in Ghost. They will have to put it back into his body. How that's going to be accomplished is completely unclear.

As is the question how long it is going to take until Jon gets some sort of funeral. Marsh is not likely going to conduct a proper funeral. If they throw the corpse into some ice cell or store it another cold place days, weeks, or months could pass before he comes back. If not, well, then they should do it rather quickly or he is going to smell when he comes back.

The longer Jon's spirit is going to remain in Ghost the more of his humanity Jon is going to lose. This has been established in ADwD, too. Skinchanging affects your personality and humanity in any case (which we learned from Jojen and Bran) but it is really a tough thing if you begin your second life. You essentially become the animal over a shorter or longer period of time. And Jon is not prepared for this whole thing at all. He neither accepted nor honed his skinchanger abilities. Being Ghost the entire time is going to affect him greatly.

The man that returns to proper human life might thus be mentally much more like a wolf than we expect him to be. He could be very feral, eating raw meet, having the urge to kill his food himself, refusing to sleep in bed, not keen to wear clothes, etc. And we have no idea whether such changes will be reversible or permanent. 

In light of all that I'm reasonable certain that Jon is up for a major change in careers and plot after his return from the dead.

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28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You are not dense.

The idea is that Jon Snow's body was killed, and he begins his second life after his death as Varamyr did. I life that's going to take place in Ghost. In that sense Jon never died and is not going to be resurrected in the same sense as Beric and Catelyn were.

Thank you, I appreciate your kindness. BUT, I can be rather dense. Thank you for explaining your ideas.

I understand what is said in the prologue of DwD’s. When the body dies the warg and or skinchanger can enter into the being of the animal. Problem is the person dies. When the person dies the body dies. The body dies and the warg or skinchanger is stuck in the animal until the memory dies.

Besides I can’t debate you, you can talk circles around me KOing me in the first round.

AND the thread is about whether LC Jon Snow has a POV in WoW. I think Jon gets six with Daenerys weighing in at 11. :grouphug:

 

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