Kitten of the Canals

What will happen to Stannis in TWOW?

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15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

So Dany may not be able to slay the lie by becoming AAR herself. But still, she doesn't have to kill Stannis.

This is where it gets complicated Mel is a foreigner and does not know her way around so she thinks Stannis is her man, but he seems to be a path, find Stannis and find Azor Ahai, now is Jon Azor Ahai or he is the path to Dany? Although Dany should have been easier to find for Mel than the other 2 in the first place /shrug.

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On 8/13/2017 at 9:44 AM, kissdbyfire said:

Stannis moved on Renly b/c Renly betrayed him by crowning himself ahead of his elder living brother. 

Renly's crowning of himself had nothing to do with the line of succession.

The only person Renly betrayed was Joffrey, and he had a good reason to do so.

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On 6/18/2017 at 4:44 PM, Sondre said:

I believe our friends from White Harbour will deal with the Freys alongside the Mannis. From there on in it's the battle for the north and Riverlands. Mel burns Shireen to save Jon, Stannis executes Mel. This will start Stannis down a path were he loses faith. I want to say that he will be killed while stubbornly refusing to yield to a power hungry and relentless Dany. Fields of fire style. He is but a side character after all. 

makes perfect sense

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On 8/13/2017 at 1:23 PM, The Drunkard said:

I don't see why the Starks would need to be involved or why we should assume that they would be given the series we're reading. The Starks didn't get their vengeance against Joffrey or Tywin or Balon, so Roose being taken down by someone else isn't unlikely. 

I also don't see a feasible way for Jon to do that. Stannis has already rallied the northmen willing to openly defy Roose, and if he fails at Winterfell they will all die, given the weather makes any sort of successful retreat impossible. They also can't wait, given how drastic the food situation is already. (and having Jon repeat what Stannis did in ADWD is just pointless)

Agreed on all counts here.  I would be very upset if an already too long series made us waste another 1000 pages on Jon being resurrected and then doing the same thing Stannis just did by marching to Winterfell.  While I see the Starks playing an important role in the politics of the north and eventual war for dawn I don't feel it necessarily needs to be exclusive with Stannis taking Winterfell.  I am very curious how Littlefinger/Sansa/the Vale will react if and when Stannis defeats the Boltons.

Total new speculation on my part that I haven't seen a theory on before, but it is possible that Rickon will end up being burned by Melisandre, alongside Shireen.  If I recall correctly (on my phone now so can't use a search of ice and fire) there is something important about the blood of two kings being needed to wake the stone dragon.  Drogo and Rhaego could be considered evidence of this.  While Jon is dead / warged into Ghost and people at the wall think Stannis is defeated is when Davos will arrive with Rickon at the wall.  If Stannis wins, only to have Melisandre undo that good will by burning the last known surviving Stark along with his own heir, that would be an incredibly ironic way for him to go out.  Especially if the burning is connected to Jon's resurrection.

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15 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Agreed on all counts here.  I would be very upset if an already too long series made us waste another 1000 pages on Jon being resurrected and then doing the same thing Stannis just did by marching to Winterfell.  While I see the Starks playing an important role in the politics of the north and eventual war for dawn I don't feel it necessarily needs to be exclusive with Stannis taking Winterfell.  I am very curious how Littlefinger/Sansa/the Vale will react if and when Stannis defeats the Boltons.

Total new speculation on my part that I haven't seen a theory on before, but it is possible that Rickon will end up being burned by Melisandre, alongside Shireen.  If I recall correctly (on my phone now so can't use a search of ice and fire) there is something important about the blood of two kings being needed to wake the stone dragon.  Drogo and Rhaego could be considered evidence of this.  While Jon is dead / warged into Ghost and people at the wall think Stannis is defeated is when Davos will arrive with Rickon at the wall.  If Stannis wins, only to have Melisandre undo that good will by burning the last known surviving Stark along with his own heir, that would be an incredibly ironic way for him to go out.  Especially if the burning is connected to Jon's resurrection.

It's Mel who says it, Jon hears it from one of the Queen's Men.

ADwD, Jon I

“Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen’s men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds. Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking. Aemon had demurred. “There is power in a king’s blood,” the old maester had warned, “and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this.” The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.”

And maester Aemon agrees, apparently. And maybe his line, "better men than Stannis have done worse things than this" is about Egg. :crying:

So, I don't think it applies w/ Rickon and Shireen. 

Also, regarding Drogo and Rhaego it doesn't quite work because Rhaego died before Drogo. 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It's Mel who says it, Jon hears it from one of the Queen's Men.

ADwD, Jon I

“Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen’s men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds. Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking. Aemon had demurred. “There is power in a king’s blood,” the old maester had warned, “and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this.” The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.”

And maester Aemon agrees, apparently. And maybe his line, "better men than Stannis have done worse things than this" is about Egg. :crying:

So, I don't think it applies w/ Rickon and Shireen. 

Also, regarding Drogo and Rhaego it doesn't quite work because Rhaego died before Drogo. 

Whewwwww thanks @kissdbyfire I did not like where my mind was heading there.  Of course it would be very Mel like to somehow screw this up.

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1 minute ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Whewwwww thanks @kissdbyfire I did not like where my mind was heading there.  Of course it would be very Mel like to somehow screw this up.

I did not like where your mind was going either! :P

 

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I don't know if that "two kings to wake the dragon" even comes from Melisandre. It's never been a part of the prophecy up until that point, as a king's bastard apparently would have qualified back on Dragonstone (where Melisandre was less powerful). Plus, assuming Stannis was still convinced, they could have gone through with it almost immediately upon arriving at Castle Black, but they instead chose to use Mance for a kidnapping/rescue mission. Plus plus, I doubt some random footman would be aware of the private discussions between Mel and Stannis regarding kings blood, given the only people aware on Dragonstone were the members of Stannis' inner council. 

I always assumed it was a result of the queen's men being too fervent in their desire for a burning, and an indication that the reputations of Stannis and Melisandre precede them. They do the same thing on the march to Winterfell when they start believing that burning Asha will end the storm and solve their problems. 

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He burns Shireen and he loses his forces as they lose faith in him. His story ends with him either riding an ice dragon or becoming an ice dragon, then losing to Jon in the very end of the series. Getting between those two points is murky.

Possibly he takes the black, the last lawful honourable thing he does for his realm, stepping aside lawfully when he no longer has anyone's support or even a fighting chance so that Jon who has the backing of the north and wildlings can lead.

After he burns Shireen he begins a downward spiral. Jon is a new Robert and Renly, winning all those things that rightfully belonged to Stannis. Jealousy and the injustice of it all eventually gets the better of him. He gets desperate and starts to play out his bitterness.

Possibly he sends for Edric and burns him too.

Stannis takes Mel under him because he's decided to back winning horses. Possibly he decides ice is the winning force and turns to it. Possibly Selyse gets pregnant and tries to escape him and he freezes her with child in the womb in the wall.

Possibly Mel loses faith and so her fire becomes ice. Possibly he takes her again for another shadow baby but dies in the act and lives on as shadow Stannis, trapped in the wall.

Eventually he will rise the ice dragon from the ice of the broken and fallen wall. Possibly an Other will raise him.

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Stannis will most likely continue to be completely different in the books and will survive most of TWOW if not early into ADOS.  He will win the Battle of Winterfell and will rally the north against the Others.  However, I believe he will die fighting the Others at some point. I feel like Stannis will fullfill almost all the Azor Ahai checkmarks and then take on the Great Other beyond the Wall where he will fail (oh so close). Before he dies, he will have made Jon a Stark and Edric Storm a Baratheon.

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@chrisdaw, I don't even know where to start replying to your post. 

Where is any of it coming from? 

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7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

@chrisdaw, I don't even know where to start replying to your post. 

Where is any of it coming from? 

Taking it for granted and trying to clear the road between A and Z would be the most useful place to both start and end.

A) is a widely theorised possibility confirmed outside the text.

Z) Stannis is a blue eyed king who cast no shadow. An ice dragon is pale blue eyed with translucent wings. Shadows are a product of the fire, Stannis's fires burn so low Mel dare not try another shadow baby. Such shadows as Mel brings forth at the wall will be terrible.

 

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GRRM likes to create as much pain and chaos for his characters as possible.  

I therefore have serious doubts that Stannis will consider the Manderlys as his allies.  More likely, he will regard them as enemies, and attack first, ask questions later.  As for Davos and Rickon, they aren't showing up any time soon.  Personally, I am of the belief that Davos ends up at Hardhome, and goes North from there.

I believe that Stannis is one of the lies that Daenerys must slay.  While I don't think she necessarily has to kill him in person, I do think he will still be around when she arrives.  That means that the battle with the Boltons will end up as, at worst, a stalemate.  Neither side can withstand a siege.  Bolton has too many men inside the castle, and not enough supplies.  Stannis simply doesn't have enough of anything.  One possibility would be for the Boltons to lay waste to Winterfell (again) and make a run for the Dreadfort.  If they can make it to the Dreadfort, they will likely be secure for awhile.  I discount any suggestion of Stannis being able to use his own troops disguised as Karstarks or some other such ruse.   The Boltons are familiar with such tactics and would be on the lookout for them.

Ultimately, I expect the possibility of a stalemate, with the Others' attack coming at a really bad time for everybody.

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On 8/13/2017 at 0:03 AM, Aegon1FanBoy said:

I do see him beating the Bolton's but dying whats with this burnign Shireen? Is what happened in the show a fact :huh:

You need to not talk about show-happenings on the General forum bro 

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On 17.8.2017 at 1:10 AM, Nevets said:

I believe that Stannis is one of the lies that Daenerys must slay.  While I don't think she necessarily has to kill him in person, I do think he will still be around when she arrives.

Why? News about her finally reaching the North would accomplish that. Davos has already heard rumors about her dragons and her exploits. Once Mel/Stannis learn about it, the lie will be well and truly slain.

On 17.8.2017 at 1:10 AM, Nevets said:

Ultimately, I expect the possibility of a stalemate, with the Others' attack coming at a really bad time for everybody.

I expect a pyrrhic victory - Stannis takes WF via subtrefuge, but it turns out that the Others are already in the North and they get busy changing all the corpses created during the fighting into wights. Very soon, he and his forces are penned in WF while the Others use snow storms to slaughter everybody who dares to venture outside.

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Stannis will lose against the Boltons. No one knows the North more then a Northerner and Roose has got the experience + the troops to take Stannis down. 

Edited by devilish

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On 8/14/2017 at 5:12 AM, elder brother jonothor dar said:

This is where it gets complicated Mel is a foreigner and does not know her way around so she thinks Stannis is her man, but he seems to be a path, find Stannis and find Azor Ahai, now is Jon Azor Ahai or he is the path to Dany? Although Dany should have been easier to find for Mel than the other 2 in the first place /shrug.

All I know is GRRM said Mel has her own agenda. The red priests in general seem to think Dany is AAR. Thoros doesn't seem to care one way or another. For some reason Mel thinks that AAR is Westerosi, and maybe missed the fact that Dany was born on Dragonstone?

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On 18/08/2017 at 2:13 PM, devilish said:

Stannis will lose against the Boltons. No one knows the North more then a Northerner and Roose has got the experience + the troops to take Stannis down. 

Arguably, Stannis has the real Northmen in the shape of mountain clans and the remains of Robb's and Cassels men. Stannis also has the luxury of commanding men who sound very ready to die.

Roose has dispatched the Freys who are from the Riverlands and are not of the North. The only Northmen he's sent are Manderly's who's allegiance is highly questionable. The reader should be expecting Manderly to turn on the Frey's once they're in the Wolf's Wood. Manderly has already invited death with open arms by serving those bloody pies and openly insulting the Freys. His intention will be to create as much damage as he can with zero intention of self preservation.  Roose can count on his Dreadfort men and it looks like the Rhyswells have thrown in with him but these forces are within WF where they're under constant psychological assault from just outside their own walls. 

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Stannis most likely will defeat the Boltons or probably already has. As to who wrote the Pink Letter, I always found it puzzling that Mel was aware of the impending bad news with her look to the skies remark to Jon. And then she appears briefly in the Shieldhall but makes no attempt to communicate with Jon inspite of knowing the savior she predicted was just declared dead. It's almost as if she knew the contents of the letter. I'm not suggesting she wrote it or Stannis did. I still think Ramsay wrote it but he is clueless about his men getting defeated by Stannis.

I don't see who else can defeat the Boltons in the next book. A resurrected Jon? I don't think so. There is Sansa in the Vale but what would motivate her to take back WF or why would the Vale fight for Sansa who to them is still Alaynne. 

I don't think Stannis will ever go back South or sit the Iron Throne (although GRRM did say many will before the end). He will even probably unite the North to fight the WWs. I think the threat of certain doom posed by the WWs will probably cause Stannis to do the thing he did to Shireen in the show.

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