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Lord Tyrell and Lord Butterwell


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Re-Reading some random chapters from ASOS and I noticed something I thought interesting.

Lady Olenna 1st compares her son to a puff fish and says

"My son ought to take the puff fish for his sigil, if truth be told. He could put a crown on it, the way the Baratheons do their stag, mayhap that would make him happy. We should have stayed well out of all this bloody foolishness if you ask me, but once the cow's been milked there's no squirting the cream back up her udder. After Lord Puff Fish put that crown on Renly's head, we were into the pudding up to our knees"

For me this immediately brought to mind Lord Butterwell because of the cow reference and their efforts in crowning a new king. While I recognize the many differences such as Butterwell did not have a daughter end up marrying into the royal family and I suppose Daemon had a (somewhat) better claim than Renly but both are really ridiculous and just envious. 

But then I looked at the similarities, both Tyrell and Butterwell were hand of the kings despite being incapable and overall "oafs" and both decided to crown a king that was "Gallant, charming, very clean and knew how to smile" and overall just made fast friends easily. 

So I guess in this situation Mace Tyrell would be Butterwell and Renly would be Daeron. I'm not trying to blow anyone's mind obviously I just thought that was interesting and I'm more worried for the Tyrells as a whole than ever before.

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2 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Re-Reading some random chapters from ASOS and I noticed something I thought interesting.

Lady Olenna 1st compares her son to a puff fish and says

"My son ought to take the puff fish for his sigil, if truth be told. He could put a crown on it, the way the Baratheons do their stag, mayhap that would make him happy. We should have stayed well out of all this bloody foolishness if you ask me, but once the cow's been milked there's no squirting the cream back up her udder. After Lord Puff Fish put that crown on Renly's head, we were into the pudding up to our knees"

For me this immediately brought to mind Lord Butterwell because of the cow reference and their efforts in crowning a new king. While I recognize the many differences such as Butterwell did not have a daughter end up marrying into the royal family and I suppose Daemon had a (somewhat) better claim than Renly but both are really ridiculous and just envious. 

But then I looked at the similarities, both Tyrell and Butterwell were hand of the kings despite being incapable and overall "oafs" and both decided to crown a king that was "Gallant, charming, very clean and knew how to smile" and overall just made fast friends easily. 

So I guess in this situation Mace Tyrell would be Butterwell and Renly would be Daeron. I'm not trying to blow anyone's mind obviously I just thought that was interesting and I'm more worried for the Tyrells as a whole than ever before.

I would venture to say that the Tyrells are more insulated than the Butterwell's were. But there are some superficial similarities between Daemon II Blackfyre and Renly... they both appeared to prefer men sexually, and they both are stereotypical dandies. Daemon seemed to be on the crueler side (in typical Targaryen fashion) while Renly was either legitimately charming and kind... or capable of appearing that way to achieve his goals. But Tyrells have the resources and levies to recover from any faux pas they happen to make. If you're rooting for Tyrells I'd be more worried about Iron Islanders invading than Cersei managing to strike any lasting blow.

I'm not sure if I'm more worried for or worried about Tyrells, but it all depends on who you care about surviving.

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17 minutes ago, Traverys said:

and they both are stereotypical dandies.

How was Renly practically a stereotypical dandy besides the fact that he liked nice clothes?  Something that was hardly unique to him as even Tywin made sure he dressed fancy and so forth.

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On June 18, 2017 at 0:01 AM, Traverys said:

I would venture to say that the Tyrells are more insulated than the Butterwell's were. But there are some superficial similarities between Daemon II Blackfyre and Renly... they both appeared to prefer men sexually, and they both are stereotypical dandies. Daemon seemed to be on the crueler side (in typical Targaryen fashion) while Renly was either legitimately charming and kind... or capable of appearing that way to achieve his goals. But Tyrells have the resources and levies to recover from any faux pas they happen to make. If you're rooting for Tyrells I'd be more worried about Iron Islanders invading than Cersei managing to strike any lasting blow.

I'm not sure if I'm more worried for or worried about Tyrells, but it all depends on who you care about surviving.

It's been awhile since I read it but I don't remember Daemon ever being particularly cruel. He could have (possibly) known of some of the cruel actions of Peake and Heddle, but I just can't remember he himself showing the Targ cruelness. 

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47 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

It's been awhile since I read it but I don't remember Daemon ever being particularly cruel. He could have (possibly) known of some of the cruel actions of Peake and Heddle, but I just can't remember he himself showing the Targ cruelness. 

That's true. IIRC Daemon was really uninterested in doing anything other than playing music and flirting with Dunk.

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30 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

That's true. IIRC Daemon was really uninterested in doing anything other than playing music and flirting with Dunk.

He was even hopping down from his horse and lending a hand to help up all of the foes he "defeated"

He also had no idea (at least not the full extent) of the Glendon Flowers torture. And overall was fairly graceful while his underlings did the dirty work.

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3 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

It's been awhile since I read it but I don't remember Daemon ever being particularly cruel. He could have (possibly) known of some of the cruel actions of Peake and Heddle, but I just can't remember he himself showing the Targ cruelness. 

I mostly mentioned it based on his treatment of Alyn Cockshaw, who had unreciprocated love for Daemon II. My interpretation of their relationship was that, at the very least, Daemon led Alyn on until a more intriguing prospect (was Dunc considered Handsome? I don't recall...) came along for him to entertain himself with.

“I wept when Bittersteel carried him off to exile, and again when Lord Peake told me he was coming home. But then he saw you upon the road, and forgot that I existed.”

So, if Alyn's quote has any truth to it, Daemon used him to stroke his ego (and maybe other things). Regardless, considering Alyn is Daemon's only friend (as we use the word today), it seems cruel to me. Not because he doesn't return the feelings, but that he doesn't seem to have given a firm no (like Daenerys did with Jorah).

 

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1 minute ago, Traverys said:

I mostly mentioned it based on his treatment of Alyn Cockshaw, who had unreciprocated love for Daemon II. My interpretation of their relationship was that, at the very least, Daemon led Alyn on until a more intriguing prospect (was Dunc considered Handsome? I don't recall...) came along for him to entertain himself with.

“I wept when Bittersteel carried him off to exile, and again when Lord Peake told me he was coming home. But then he saw you upon the road, and forgot that I existed.”

So, if Alyn's quote has any truth to it, Daemon used him to stroke his ego (and maybe other things). Regardless, considering Alyn is Daemon's only friend (as we use the word today), it seems cruel to me.

 

I didn't see it quite like that. My interpretation was always that Daemon still considered Alyn to be a friend but did not love him back (and I always believed he didn't even notice) and had become distracted by Dunk. I don't think he was leading Alyn along, at least not intentionally, just being oblivious. I'd take Alyn's quote with a grain of salt. He's biased and talking to the person he perceived to be stealing his love interest.

Daemon's older brothers Aegon and Aemon fit the bill for 'typical' Targ cruelty so much better than Daemon, as does Bittersteel, Maelys and possibly Haegon

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3 hours ago, Traverys said:

I mostly mentioned it based on his treatment of Alyn Cockshaw, who had unreciprocated love for Daemon II. My interpretation of their relationship was that, at the very least, Daemon led Alyn on until a more intriguing prospect (was Dunc considered Handsome? I don't recall...) came along for him to entertain himself with.

“I wept when Bittersteel carried him off to exile, and again when Lord Peake told me he was coming home. But then he saw you upon the road, and forgot that I existed.”

So, if Alyn's quote has any truth to it, Daemon used him to stroke his ego (and maybe other things). Regardless, considering Alyn is Daemon's only friend (as we use the word today), it seems cruel to me. Not because he doesn't return the feelings, but that he doesn't seem to have given a firm no (like Daenerys did with Jorah).

 

interesting but I can't say is call that Targ madness... That shit is no joke. Daemon was just not nearly as cruel

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5 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

I didn't see it quite like that. My interpretation was always that Daemon still considered Alyn to be a friend but did not love him back (and I always believed he didn't even notice) and had become distracted by Dunk. I don't think he was leading Alyn along, at least not intentionally, just being oblivious. I'd take Alyn's quote with a grain of salt. He's biased and talking to the person he perceived to be stealing his love interest.

Daemon's older brothers Aegon and Aemon fit the bill for 'typical' Targ cruelty so much better than Daemon, as does Bittersteel, Maelys and possibly Haegon

I see your point, but my interpretation differs. Daemon II didn't seem like a person that would balk when he needed to draw a line in the sand. He didn't balk revealing his (politically staining) sexuality to Dunk and certainly didn't balk at the idea of staging a rebellion. Let's not forget Alyn was Lord Alyn, though we'll likely never know how many swords he could have contributed to his cause. But it's more swords than Daemon brought with him. Daemon knew what he was doing.

Alyn seemed quite a bit unhinged towards the end, but the stories are third person limited, not third person omniscient. We don't really know his thoughts, experiences, personality. Or even the real history between them. It's ambiguous. And if you take his quote with a grain of salt you end up having to salt every other quote in the text, so not sure you would really want to go that route. It would mean everything Daemon says is not worthy of trust, thus was know absolutely nothing about him. And thus this topic would be moot because there is no certainty.

I'll address this below too, but I wasn't accusing him of being mad.

2 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

interesting but I can't say is call that Targ madness... That shit is no joke. Daemon was just not nearly as cruel

I wouldn't call it madness at all. He seemed fairly sane to me. But even "nice" Targaryens have been shown to be capable of a cruel streak (e.g., Daenerys). Of course, I'd readily accept that historical Targaryens tend to be best remembered for the bad things they've done (as any leader is) rather than the good. But then you also have to accept that important cultural figures like Baelor the Blessed have bad things about them swept under the rug since his is a "saint" (so to speak) of the Faith.

Remember Targaryens are often (with exceptions) raised to believe that they are above men and gods. That's why they practiced incest (relatively) unchallenged: (1) Beautiful dragons such as ourselves do not rut with dirty mortal Andals and First Men, and (2) we're Targaryens, we do not bend the knee to gods.

 

Anyways, this all seems like a major detraction from the topic. Me noting Targaryens were prone to seeing themselves as higher than men and thus predisposed toward cruel acts was in parentheses, for the record.

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