aventador577

Why did the Tully's betray the Tagaryen?

62 posts in this topic

I mean they basically owe them everything.

It was the Targaryen who liberated them from the Ironborn.

It was Aegon, who gave the Tully's the riverlands.

It was the Tagaryas who kept the peace more or less. If it is a kingdom who desperately needs peace in westeros, it's the riverland.

So in conclusion, I think that it's difficult to find a house and a region that has profited more from the Targaryens than them.

And I do not really believe, that killing the betrothed from Cat is a good enough reason.

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1 hour ago, aventador577 said:

Tagaryas who kept the peace more or less

That is hilarious! The Targs have created more chaos than any other house in less than 300 years. They had created one civil war because the brother hated the sister, Dance of the Dragons, five Blackfyre Rebellions because the siblings hated each other, two wars with Dorne and a conquest because they felt that they had the right to attack and take other people houses and freedom, one war with the Faith because even if they were pretending to follow the Seven they were only lying and keep committing their incestuous abomination marriages and children, one war that the Stepstones because they wanted more money and one war because the Crown prince thought that it was ok to elope with his cousin’s betrothed and abandon his wife and children at the hands of his lunatic father.  They have created 12 wars in less than 300 years. No the Targs had not kept the peace.

There was no reason why the Tully of any other house should have supported them. The Targs have never paid the price for the support of the majority of the Great Houses and the houses that have supported them, Baratheons and Martells, have only been lose out.

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First of all they had no reason to remain loyal to Aerys. Second Hoster Tully wed his daugthers to Ned Stark and Jon Arryn , which was a good deal for Hoster. 

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'Cos Aerys II went batshit insane and started murdering nobles left and right (riverlanders not excluded)?... Maybe that was some reason. Just a thought.

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2 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

That is hilarious! The Targs have created more chaos than any other house in less than 300 years. They had created one civil war because the brother hated the sister, Dance of the Dragons, five Blackfyre Rebellions because the siblings hated each other, two wars with Dorne and a conquest because they felt that they had the right to attack and take other people houses and freedom, one war with the Faith because even if they were pretending to follow the Seven they were only lying and keep committing their incestuous abomination marriages and children, one war that the Stepstones because they wanted more money and one war because the Crown prince thought that it was ok to elope with his cousin’s betrothed and abandon his wife and children at the hands of his lunatic father.  They have created 12 wars in less than 300 years. No the Targs had not kept the peace.

There was no reason why the Tully of any other house should have supported them. The Targs have never paid the price for the support of the majority of the Great Houses and the houses that have supported them, Baratheons and Martells, have only been lose out.

Thank you sincerely. I don't  know where people get the idea of Targaryens brought peace to a chaotic Westeros. Targaryen conquest didn't change anything for smallfolk or nobles alike. There were wars before conquest too but borders remains more or less same. And if you read the Tales of Dunk and Egg you will know there is still fights between lesser lords and the Crown doesn't even care about these conflicts. They didn't even create a juidicial system for the realm they claim united. They levy taxes but there is no magistrates, sheriffs, constables or any other form of law enforcement constitution. Only thing they've done in 300 years is the Kingsroad.

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5 hours ago, aventador577 said:

I mean they basically owe them everything.

It was the Targaryen who liberated them from the Ironborn.

It was Aegon, who gave the Tully's the riverlands.

It was the Tagaryas who kept the peace more or less. If it is a kingdom who desperately needs peace in westeros, it's the riverland.

So in conclusion, I think that it's difficult to find a house and a region that has profited more from the Targaryens than them.

And I do not really believe, that killing the betrothed from Cat is a good enough reason.

I second this. The Tullys are nothing more but a bunch of backstabbing opportunists with Hoster being the worst of them all. If you look at their history, they seriously have a bad habit when it comes to betraying their higher ups from the Mudds, Teagues, Hoares and just recently the Targaryens and Baratheons. With the Targaryens it was an especially bitter betrayal since it was they who enfeoffed the Tullys to rule the Riverlands in the first place. And out of all the Seven Kingdoms, the Riverlands had enjoyed the bounty of Targaryen rule the most with peace and plenty that has never been seen before or since, and the Tullys got the sweeter end of the deal when they were raised up to the same station as the former kings. The way I see it the Tullys are a house of ingrates, more ambitious than the Tyrells (at least they didn't betray their benefactors). Hoster was a vulture who not only bit the hand that had fed him and several generations of his family, but was also willing to pick the flesh from their bones as he profited significantly from the war at their expense.

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The Tullys show that they are not that different from the Freys when they join Aegon and then later Robert.

Hoster's decision may in part be influenced by the memory of the Targaryen betrayal in the canceled Jaehaerys-Celia betrothal but I actually think the main reason was that three rebel armies - the remnants of Robert's host, the Arryn host, and the Stark army - had invaded his territory. It could have gone very bad for him had he decided to stick to the Targaryens. And when his demands were met he even got something out of the deal.

The idea that a man like Hoster Tully cared all that much about Aerys' state of mind or the fact that Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon is not convincing to me. Hoster was an ambitious man. He only grew sentimental in old age.

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The Tullys have a history of rebellion and faithless oppertunism for at the very least the last three hundred years or so. And they probably have the worst record, alongside the Greyjoys, when it comes to their relation to the Iron Throne. Despite that the Tullys has their esteemed position to thank the Iron Throne for.

When Aegon came the Tullys raised their banners against Harren.

When Aenys and Maegor ruled the Tullys were with them, until Maegor started to slip, at which point they went over to Jaehaerys' side.

At the Dance Lord Grover Tully wanted to fight for Aegon II, but his, I presume, son more or less conducted a coup in order to isolate the old Lord Tully until he'd died and his son could join Riverrun to the Blacks.

Don't know who were went with the Blackfyre but I would presume that for once they managed to keep things straight, and we don't know how well or bad that they went with Aegon V's reforms.

Robert's Rebellion, turned rebel for a price of status-filled marriages

War of Five Kings, turned traitor against the Iron Throne, not just the Baratheon-Lannister reign but against the whole idea of a unified Westeros, when they joined the Starks in separatism

It seems like more or less every chance they get, the Tullys rebel or practice some shenanigans. If it had just been one or two of these things I would have not thought much of it, but its a common theme that shows up time and again with the Lords of Riverrun. And given that Tommen has now stripped Riverrun from them I think it was only a matter of time before the Tullys would have turned rebel one time to many and the whole thing blew up in their face with a failed rebellion that they attached themselves to.

And to be honest given their history and current problems with a unified Westeros, I have a hard time seeing any man on the Iron Throne, Baratheon, Targaryen or even Greyjoy, who would be eager to give back the Riverlands to House Tully as opposed to make a new Lord Paramount. If the Tullys ends with Riverrun back in their hands they should count themselves lucky.

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8 hours ago, aventador577 said:

I mean they basically owe them everything.

It was the Targaryen who liberated them from the Ironborn.

It was Aegon, who gave the Tully's the riverlands.

It was the Tagaryas who kept the peace more or less. If it is a kingdom who desperately needs peace in westeros, it's the riverland.

So in conclusion, I think that it's difficult to find a house and a region that has profited more from the Targaryens than them.

And I do not really believe, that killing the betrothed from Cat is a good enough reason.

Hoster Tully didn't join the rebels for principles.  He joined because he needed to get rid of a daughter that lost her social value and was never going to have a chance to marry into another high ranking family.  Hoster Tully was a Grade A snob.  He thought his soiled daughter too good to marry less than a son from a High House.  Jon Arryn desperately needed his help and he took advantage and required Jon Arryn to marry Lysa.  Lysa lost her cherry to Petyr and Hoster forced her to have an abortion. 

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7 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

That is hilarious! The Targs have created more chaos than any other house in less than 300 years. They had created one civil war because the brother hated the sister, Dance of the Dragons, five Blackfyre Rebellions because the siblings hated each other, two wars with Dorne and a conquest because they felt that they had the right to attack and take other people houses and freedom, one war with the Faith because even if they were pretending to follow the Seven they were only lying and keep committing their incestuous abomination marriages and children, one war that the Stepstones because they wanted more money and one war because the Crown prince thought that it was ok to elope with his cousin’s betrothed and abandon his wife and children at the hands of his lunatic father.  They have created 12 wars in less than 300 years. No the Targs had not kept the peace.

I beg to differ; the Riverlands are smack in the middle of Westeros, which means that any army who has to go to their enemies will almost certainly have to cross the Riverlands to get to them. We are also told in the history of the Riverlands that barely a generation would go by without two, sometimes three, of the kingdoms being at war with one another. The Targaryen dynasty of Westeros put an end to royal houses fighting over territory (the biggest motivator for war) and instead reduced the fighting to between the Targaryens, which admittedly, there was not that much of. The World Book also tells us that the Targaryen rule has, compared to prior to their rule, been the most peaceful time in recorded Westerosi history.

And 12 wars in 300 years is actually not a lot, considering Westeros' massive size (that's actually a lot fewer wars than U.S. has been in since its founding)

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Hoster Tully was bound by tradition of marriage alliance to the starks, since the wild Brand died without and living child it meant that he's younger brother will have to marry the wife he left behind. that was done to protect the honor of widow and her family, since by the old tradition of marriage alliance comes first before any other alliance as explained in the history and lore videos about Robert rebellion catelyn stark.

And river lands would have been in the middle of three Robert armies  he vale to the east, the north from the neck and the stomlands from the west in which the river lands would have suffer more if the joined the mad king than if the joined Robert rebellion.    

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Several reasons, I expect. One, Aerys had just murdered a Lord Paramount and his son, then demanded the deaths of two more LPs (both innocent of any crime). That is a direct attack on the position and institution of Lord Paramount; if Aerys can execute Ned Stark and Robert Barathen without justification, he can certainly execute someone like Hoster Tully (if he so chooses). Secondly, Hoster did not have the luxury of staying neutral; soon, both the Northern and Vale armies would be entering his territory (and the Royal armies might do so also) so he had to choose a side. Thirdly, some of the men Aerys 'executed' were Riverlands men; siding with Aerys might have angered those lords who had lost relatives. Next, the Rebels offered tangible benefits to the Tullys. Another reason is that Hoster might not have wanted to definitely alienate his favourite daughter by siding with the people who murdered her betrothed (a man she seemed quite fond of). And lastly, maybe Hoster just thought that Aerys was in the wrong and that Ned and Robert didn't deserve to die? It's a possibility.

Overall, I'd say it was a mix of practical and political reasons.

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6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

The Tullys have a history of rebellion and faithless oppertunism for at the very least the last three hundred years or so. And they probably have the worst record, alongside the Greyjoys, when it comes to their relation to the Iron Throne. Despite that the Tullys has their esteemed position to thank the Iron Throne for.

When Aegon came the Tullys raised their banners against Harren.

When Aenys and Maegor ruled the Tullys were with them, until Maegor started to slip, at which point they went over to Jaehaerys' side.

At the Dance Lord Grover Tully wanted to fight for Aegon II, but his, I presume, son more or less conducted a coup in order to isolate the old Lord Tully until he'd died and his son could join Riverrun to the Blacks.

Don't know who were went with the Blackfyre but I would presume that for once they managed to keep things straight, and we don't know how well or bad that they went with Aegon V's reforms.

Robert's Rebellion, turned rebel for a price of status-filled marriages

War of Five Kings, turned traitor against the Iron Throne, not just the Baratheon-Lannister reign but against the whole idea of a unified Westeros, when they joined the Starks in separatism

It seems like more or less every chance they get, the Tullys rebel or practice some shenanigans. If it had just been one or two of these things I would have not thought much of it, but its a common theme that shows up time and again with the Lords of Riverrun. And given that Tommen has now stripped Riverrun from them I think it was only a matter of time before the Tullys would have turned rebel one time to many and the whole thing blew up in their face with a failed rebellion that they attached themselves to.

And to be honest given their history and current problems with a unified Westeros, I have a hard time seeing any man on the Iron Throne, Baratheon, Targaryen or even Greyjoy, who would be eager to give back the Riverlands to House Tully as opposed to make a new Lord Paramount. If the Tullys ends with Riverrun back in their hands they should count themselves lucky.

Call me crazy, but I actually have a lot more sympathy for the Greyjoys, and the Iron Islands in general. That's an incredibly unpopular opinion, I know, but I view the Iron Islands as a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Their isolation from the rest of Westeros is what fed the Old Way, and yet from what we've learned thus far, the Crown never did anything to try to strengthen ties between them and the mainland. Hell, most of the time they're not even acknowledged as one of the seven kingdoms; that honor goes to Dorne, despite the Iron Islands having been largely loyal in the years leading up to Dorne joining with the Iron Throne (if I remember  correctly, the Red Kraken was the only one to rebel during this period, and even that began under Rhaenyra's orders). Even if they're a predominantly independent kingdom, that sort of alienation has consequences. 

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Yes peace needs burning people alive for no reason from time to time. Even today some individuals do this aren't they? 

"Killing the bethroted wasn't a good enough reason".

Peace=burned people.

Rebellion against the nutcase burning people=disturbing the peace.

"A peaceful land-a burning people."

 

 

 

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I think it's a reasonable guess that the marriages of the Tully girls to the Starks and the Arryns was partly a plan by their respective Maesters, and that Hoster was happy to participate in plans suggested to him that enlarged his influence, whether he cared about their underlying motives or not. And that it was Maesters who laid a lot of the seeds for the rebellion.

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7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Call me crazy, but I actually have a lot more sympathy for the Greyjoys, and the Iron Islands in general. That's an incredibly unpopular opinion, I know, but I view the Iron Islands as a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Their isolation from the rest of Westeros is what fed the Old Way, and yet from what we've learned thus far, the Crown never did anything to try to strengthen ties between them and the mainland. Hell, most of the time they're not even acknowledged as one of the seven kingdoms; that honor goes to Dorne, despite the Iron Islands having been largely loyal in the years leading up to Dorne joining with the Iron Throne (if I remember  correctly, the Red Kraken was the only one to rebel during this period, and even that began under Rhaenyra's orders). Even if they're a predominantly independent kingdom, that sort of alienation has consequences. 

I will agree that its an unpopular opinion and one that I don't share but I think that you have many good points. There's a reason as to why the potentially poorest and most isolated region turns to reaving, being cursed with poor soil and a position opposite the Narrow Sea where they could, if they had been there, particioned in the sea trade. And that up to Dalton and then Dagon, the Greyjoys were loyal to the Iron Throne without getting anything from it. Its no small wonder that the magic of the Targaryens wore off and they Ironmen tried to take with rebellion what loyalty would evidently not given them. So you are entirely correct in that alienation has a price, although I would add that its seems to be a two-way street with many Ironmen not being to thrilled to be part of the greater realm either, most notably the influential Drowned Men.

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The Tullys are the weakest LPs in Westeros. Their lands can't be defended and they barely have the support of all their banner men. With the North and the Vale rebelling and the Westerlands waiting for its chance to jump into the fray, Lord Tully had a choice between joining the rebellion or seeing his lands being laid to waste. There's no way the Riverlands could resist an invasion from both the North and the Vale especially with shifty Walder luring at the shadows.

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Isn't one of the themes of the whole series how honor and duty is all well and good and paid lip service to until it can be abandoned for gain or gets you killed? 

I think the Tully's were right to stand up to a corrupt and deteriorating rule. The way I see it is Hoster thinking "You made us chief among our peers 3 centuries ago, but what have you done for me lately? Less than the Starks and Arryns."

And I totally agree with those who say the Targs are overrated. And believe Dany will bring nothing but bad things for the common folks of Westeros, for that matter. 

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Hoster would never have betrayed the Targs if it wasnt for Aerys insane actions of killing nobles for no reason without trials and then ordering the heads of Robert and Ned which was the last straw for everyone of the rebels, Hostet was faced with a decision stay loyal to a mad man or join the Rebels and get STRONG mariages out of them for your daughters. Also people tend to forget the RL is in smack in the middle of the North, Vale, and Stormlands if Hoster didnt agree to join the rebels his lands would be attacked from ALL sides and with Tywin staying neutral who was Hoster counting on to save them???? The Iron born??? I think not lol. 

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4 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Hoster would never have betrayed the Targs if it wasnt for Aerys insane actions of killing nobles for no reason without trials and then ordering the heads of Robert and Ned which was the last straw for everyone of the rebels, Hostet was faced with a decision stay loyal to a mad man or join the Rebels and get STRONG mariages out of them for your daughters. Also people tend to forget the RL is in smack in the middle of the North, Vale, and Stormlands if Hoster didnt agree to join the rebels his lands would be attacked from ALL sides and with Tywin staying neutral who was Hoster counting on to save them???? The Iron born??? I think not lol. 

What Aerys did was unforgivable. One can argue that Brandon saw it coming and he deserved to be executed. However Rickard, Robert and Ned were innocent. He couldn’t expect them to pay for a crime they didn’t commit especially since he allowed Rhaegar to kidnap Rickard’s daughter and Robert’s future wife and get away with it. Its only fair for Lords to ask whether they wanted to be ruled by a ruling family who commit such horrible acts and get away with it. Who knows, maybe next time, it would be Tully’s turn to receive Aerys ‘judgement’

Returning to Hoster, he was a great negotiator but nothing more. Under his command the Riverlands were weak. He couldn’t get support from all his banner men, his future son in law got threatened under his roof which resulted into a duel and his daughter was despoiled by that same lord inside Riverrun. Hoster milked the rebellion to the last drop, by forcing the Starks and the Arryns to marry a Tully but in reality he had no choice but to join the rebellion. There was no way they could resist an invasion from both the North and the Vale especially since Hoster couldn’t rely on the Freys to hold their ground and keep the North busy while the rest of the Riverlands could deal with the Vale. Not to forget that the Westerlands and the Iron islands could join the fray at any moment.

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