aventador577

Why did the Tully's betray the Tagaryen?

32 posts in this topic

You should never remind anyone of what they have done for you or the debt you owe, it is much wiser to tell them what you will do for them.

 

The Targs offered instability and not much else, while the North and Vale offered political unions as well as the threat of imminent invasion, so in that context it was a simple choice; ungreatful and maybe short sighted but simple.

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7 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

You should never remind anyone of what they have done for you or the debt you owe, it is much wiser to tell them what you will do for them.

 

Are you kidding all lords high or low demand complicity from their vassals no matter how unreasonable they are. A lot of times its not even because their vassals owe their lords a debt for their power and privileges but simply because they've sworn an oath to them. Look at how Robb threatened to execute the Greatjon when he initially refused to go to war with him after Robb had called the banners, or how Cat tried to remind Walder Frey of his oath to her father. I guess to the Tullys, expectation of leal service and loyalty only apply to THEIR vassals and not to themselves. Nevertheless now that their house is all but ruined with them stripped of their lands, wealth and power and bannerman abandoning them, do you think Dany or Aegon have any reason to give the Tullys a second chance given that they require such mercentilist incentives to stay loyal rather than out of a sense of duty, honor and gratitude?

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1 hour ago, Kaibaman said:

Are you kidding all lords high or low demand complicity from their vassals no matter how unreasonable they are. A lot of times its not even because their vassals owe their lords a debt for their power and privileges but simply because they've sworn an oath to them. Look at how Robb threatened to execute the Greatjon when he initially refused to go to war with him after Robb had called the banners, or how Cat tried to remind Walder Frey of his oath to her father. I guess to the Tullys, expectation of leal service and loyalty only apply to THEIR vassals and not to themselves. Nevertheless now that their house is all but ruined with them stripped of their lands, wealth and power and bannerman abandoning them, do you think Dany or Aegon have any reason to give the Tullys a second chance given that they require such mercentilist incentives to stay loyal rather than out of a sense of duty, honor and gratitude?

 

The thing is, Hoster Tully never gave his vassals a reason to mistrust his rule. By all accounts, he was an able ruler who maintained his lands and people.

Aerys on the other hand, shattered and shat upon the two way bonds of fealty. He murdered not just Brandon, but his companions, and their fathers.

You can't reason with insanity.

Staying loyal to a madman, solely because he's king, is a fine way to burn the realm to the ground. Rhaegar via his actions clearly wasn't an ideal replacement either, so it fell to Robert, in the line of succession, and righteous in cause to boot.

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5 minutes ago, The Frosted King said:

 

The thing is, Hoster Tully never gave his vassals a reason to mistrust his rule. By all accounts, he was an able ruler who maintained his lands and people.

Aerys on the other hand, shattered and shat upon the two way bonds of fealty. He murdered not just Brandon, but his companions, and their fathers.

You can't reason with insanity.

Staying loyal to a madman, solely because he's king, is a fine way to burn the realm to the ground. Rhaegar via his actions clearly wasn't an ideal replacement either, so it fell to Robert, in the line of succession, and righteous in cause to boot.

For the last three centuries, the Tullys and generations of their family had enjoyed the bounty of Targaryen rule. They were raised up to high office and immense power not through their own deeds or merits but because the Targaryens handed it to them. Hoster like all his predecessors had sworn fealty to House Targaryen. Yet when the time came to put his fealty into practice, instead of upholding his rightful sovereign, he colluded with rebels and usurpers to overthrow the very dynasty that had given him and his family so much. If this isn't proof of their ingratitude then I don't know what is.

Every man knows to repay their benefactors but the Tullys are ingrates. Do you honestly believe that Dany would even consider restoring them to their former glory after just how unreliable they have proven themselves to be?

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2 minutes ago, Kaibaman said:

For the last three centuries, the Tullys and generations of their family had enjoyed the bounty of Targaryen rule. They were raised up to high office and immense power not through their own deeds or merits but because the Targaryens handed it to them. Hoster like all his predecessors had sworn fealty to House Targaryen. Yet when the time came to put his fealty into practice, instead of upholding his rightful sovereign, he colluded with rebels and usurpers to overthrow the very dynasty that had given him and his family so much. If this isn't proof of their ingratitude then I don't know what is.

Every man knows to repay their benefactors but the Tullys are ingrates. Do you honestly believe that Dany would even consider restoring them to their former glory after just how unreliable they have proven themselves to be?

 

For the last three centuries, the Targaryens and generations of the family had enjoyed the bounty of the Riverlands fealty. They were held up and honored as kings, not through the own deeds and merits but because the Tully's honored their rulers. Aerys like all his predecessors had taken the oaths of fealty from House Tully, promising them fair rule and justice in return for homage and taxes. Yet when the time came to put justice in action, instead of the fair hand of the king towards his subjects, he summoned the noble father's of errant sons, and murdered them without trial, letting the realm know that there was no stable hand of justice in the realm.

Do i honestly think Dany should have a say in the ruling of the seven kingdoms, after the former rulers of her house shat the rug? 

Thank you for asking and my answer is.......................nope.

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5 minutes ago, The Frosted King said:

 

For the last three centuries, the Targaryens and generations of the family had enjoyed the bounty of the Riverlands fealty. They were held up and honored as kings, not through the own deeds and merits but because the Tully's honored their rulers. Aerys like all his predecessors had taken the oaths of fealty from House Tully, promising them fair rule and justice in return for homage and taxes. Yet when the time came to put justice in action, instead of the fair hand of the king towards his subjects, he summoned the noble father's of errant sons, and murdered them without trial, letting the realm know that there was no stable hand of justice in the realm.

Do i honestly think Dany should have a say in the ruling of the seven kingdoms, after the former rulers of her house shat the rug? 

Thank you for asking and my answer is.......................nope.

Have you forgotten that it was the Targaryens who drove the Ironborn from the Riverlands after virtually being begged by the Riverlords to save them from the brutal rule of Harren the Balck? If it wasn't for Aegon and his sisters the Riverlands may still be at the mercy of the Ironborn or worse. Plus their descendants had kept the peace in the Riverlands far better than anyone before or since. I mean the Blackfish himself even commented that “under the Targaryens the Riverlands knew a peace we haven’t had for centuries, if ever”. In other words the Tullys didn't do squat to earn their position or even to keep the peace. They simply reaped the benefits of living under the Targaryen umbrella because unlike the rulers of the Trident that came before, they were not required to constantly fight their neighbors and could focus on trade and growing their province. And exactly what did the Tullys do would make people look back and say this is why they rule the Riverlands? I mean sure Edmyn Tully may have led the Riverlords into rebellion against Harren the Black, but even then it was Aegon and his sisters who did all the heavy lifting. He burnt Harrenhal to the ground, wiped out the hated Hoare line and was proclaimed king by the Riverlords, all the while Edmyn just sat by watched and then kissed the dragon's ring afterwords to become the new overlord of the Trident.

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The Tullys never did get anything from the Baratheon reign. They had no place or sway in court during Robert's reign just a few marriages that could have been pulled off without aligning themselves to the rebels. 

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On 6/18/2017 at 2:38 AM, aventador577 said:

Why did the Tully's betray the Tagaryen?

Because the Maesters convinced them it was a good idea.

The better question is "Why did the Maesters want the Tullys to betray the Targaryens." But that's fairly easy, the Maesters have been undermining the Targaryens from the start. A more interesting question: "Why did the Maesters want to breed Starks and Tullys?"

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8 hours ago, Kaibaman said:

Are you kidding all lords high or low demand complicity from their vassals no matter how unreasonable they are. A lot of times its not even because their vassals owe their lords a debt for their power and privileges but simply because they've sworn an oath to them. Look at how Robb threatened to execute the Greatjon when he initially refused to go to war with him after Robb had called the banners, or how Cat tried to remind Walder Frey of his oath to her father.

Great examples

What would have happened to Greatjon?  He was isolated in the north Starks have provided stable rule in the north for milenia (not quite but long enough) when the wildlings attack in numbers the Starks come to save the day, so by your logic Umbers owe the Starks almost as much as the Tully/Targs.

 

Now look at Frey they too where duty bound to answer the call of their LP to muster in RR  (before Robert died) and slow to respond as usual.  Now fast forward to the north camped outside with Its army.  Frey is duty bound to the crown which is contested, and to his overlords the Tullys which isn't.  Frey has the choice like the Umbers and many other vassals before them, obey their Lord or stay loyal to the crown.  He arguably had more loyalty to the Lannisters and was given more by the Lannisters than the Tullys, but Robb offered more than Tywin, so Frey forgot about his debt/loyalty and went for the best offer on the table.

 

So yes demand complicity all day long, but you need to be able to enforce it, by iron or gold.  And if the other side are at hand offering both do not be surprised if loyal bannermen jumped sides.

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11 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Because the Maesters convinced them it was a good idea.

The better question is "Why did the Maesters want the Tullys to betray the Targaryens." But that's fairly easy, the Maesters have been undermining the Targaryens from the start. A more interesting question: "Why did the Maesters want to breed Starks and Tullys?"

This is absurd.

The real question is why did anyone defend  the Targaryens?

Aerys slew Jeffory Mallister, one of Hoster's primary vassal's heirs, for literally no reason.  Hoster Tully has a duty to defend his vassals as a condition of their obedience; if he does nothing, his vassals can rightly assume he won't protect their rights, and will be perfectly justified in throwing off their obedience to him.

More importantly, Aerys forfeited any feudal right to rule when he slew Rickard and Brandon, and then called for Robert/Ned's heads. Hoster Tully has seen his king executing the highest lords in the land for no reason at all; why should he think he's safe?  The Baratheons were the Targaryens closest supporters under Steffon, and yet Aerys calls for Robert's head, merely because he was betrothed to Lyanna. Why wouldn't Hoster think that Catelyn is going to be next due to her engagement to Brandon?  Or his whole family, for that matter?

Aerys was an psychopath and devoid of reason.  If Hoster, or ANY noble, allows him to get away with his gross breaches of justice and the feudal contract, then they could be next.

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14 hours ago, Kaibaman said:

Have you forgotten that it was the Targaryens who drove the Ironborn from the Riverlands after virtually being begged by the Riverlords to save them from the brutal rule of Harren the Balck? If it wasn't for Aegon and his sisters the Riverlands may still be at the mercy of the Ironborn or worse. Plus their descendants had kept the peace in the Riverlands far better than anyone before or since. I mean the Blackfish himself even commented that “under the Targaryens the Riverlands knew a peace we haven’t had for centuries, if ever”. In other words the Tullys didn't do squat to earn their position or even to keep the peace. They simply reaped the benefits of living under the Targaryen umbrella because unlike the rulers of the Trident that came before, they were not required to constantly fight their neighbors and could focus on trade and growing their province. And exactly what did the Tullys do would make people look back and say this is why they rule the Riverlands? I mean sure Edmyn Tully may have led the Riverlords into rebellion against Harren the Black, but even then it was Aegon and his sisters who did all the heavy lifting. He burnt Harrenhal to the ground, wiped out the hated Hoare line and was proclaimed king by the Riverlords, all the while Edmyn just sat by watched and then kissed the dragon's ring afterwords to become the new overlord of the Trident.

The Tullys were considered one of the strongest houses of the Riverlands for centuries before Aegon and his sisters arrived in Westeros, they witnessed River kings come and go and new houses rise and old houses be completely wiped out. The Tullys are the strongest house in the Riverlands at the time of Aegons conquest and Edmyn Tully rallied the riverlords to Aegons side not Aegon rallied the Riverlords so credit is due. For Edmyn Tullys help gathering the Riverlords and because house Tully was already known amongst their peers to be one of if not the strongest of the Riverlords he was givin the title of LP, you make it seem like the Tullys were just some up jumped stewards like the Tyrells lol. The Riverlords gladly accepted the Tully rule and benefited from it for the most part for the next 300 years. 

 

Also a side not unrelated to this.......

 

Edmure Tully defeated Tywin Lannister in the battle of the stone mill........

 

Not even Stannis can claim such a thing and Stannis is the Chuck Norris of Westeros IMO. 

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Saw a chance to get better than they had i guess. I mean last time the Tully's were in good Grace\s was when Egg wanted his daughter to marry in them (we all know how that turned out). With this they had a chance to be apart of two great houses. But the Tully's are known for this like many said. Look how they backed aegon and aenys, yet they left aneys heir out to dry. Then left Maegor for Jaehearys. Honestly as many have said its was karma for all of them. The targs got theirs during the rebellion and now all the houses that raised against them are suffering now.

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