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NBA Draft 2017: Sixers, Celtics and Will LaVar Ball Lose His Shit on National Television Edition


Manhole Eunuchsbane

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2 hours ago, briantw said:

Why couldn't they get both?  Trade Love for George, and then get Melo when he's bought out.  George plays the two, Melo plays the four to replace Love.  

I don't understand how this became an either/or situation.  No one is talking about trading Love for Melo.  That would be moronic. 

Neither was I. It was made a Melo vs George discussion. I said the same a you a few pages back. Love for George and get Melo as a FA. 

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7 hours ago, Triskan said:

Melo is such an enigma.  He is a straight killer in the Olympics and yet he's been a borderline cancer in the NBA.  Anyone explain?  His game is unreal.  

Much weaker opposition in the Olympics?

Let's be honest here, USA beat Serbia in the finals by 30-40 points without even breaking a sweat, really. It wouldn't have taken significant effort to turn it into a 60 point margin. As much as I hate to admit it, USA dominates the Olympics with such ease that they could win gold with their second or even third team.

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32 minutes ago, baxus said:

Much weaker opposition in the Olympics?

Let's be honest here, USA beat Serbia in the finals by 30-40 points without even breaking a sweat, really. It wouldn't have taken significant effort to turn it into a 60 point margin. As much as I hate to admit it, USA dominates the Olympics with such ease that they could win gold with their second or even third team.

i really enjoyed the period where they kept fucking up at the world championships and at the 2004 olympics, it was great watching a bunch of brats get put in their place. 

Talking through the various trade scenario's, is there any realistic trade that gets anyone even close to even money with GSW right now?

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23 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

i really enjoyed the period where they kept fucking up at the world championships and at the 2004 olympics, it was great watching a bunch of brats get put in their place. 

You didn't enjoy it nearly as much as I did, considering that it was my national team that knocked them out in the world championship in Indianapolis in 2002 to go on and win the tournament. ;) 

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8 hours ago, briantw said:

Why couldn't they get both?  Trade Love for George, and then get Melo when he's bought out.  George plays the two, Melo plays the four to replace Love.  

I don't understand how this became an either/or situation.  No one is talking about trading Love for Melo.  That would be moronic. 

This! It makes no sense to suggest that you can only get Melo if you keep Love. And even if the scenario is Love and Melo or George, you take George. Adding George addresses a couple of weaknesses versus the Warriors while simply adding Melo would be a redundancy. 

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@Trebla,

Excellent post. There were two things you brought up that I'd like to discuss. First, the trade. It would have been a fair trade if you got a healthy LaVine and kept your pick, but as such, you got fleeced. Second, Thibs' minutes. The only reservation I had about him taking over was the minutes, and midway through last season LaVine lead the league in minutes played, Wiggins was third and Towns was in the top 15. If that continues, I fear for the longevity of this team. 

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The Chris Paul trade seems like a really awkward fit from an outside perspective.

Chris Paul joins up with, all of people, James Harden? 

And yet from individual angles, the trade makes sense:

Clipper angle: Have been told on Tuesday that Chris Paul has no faith in them anymore, doesn't even like their plans. They manage to trade him for a whole glut of useful players. Beverly and Lou Williams have been very useful contributors for the Rockets. Themn also Harrell. And Dekker. That's a haul.

Paul angle: Still gets a massive payday. Gets to play with the guy he really wanted to play with. Gets to play in a better team ( at least before they lost most of their bench in this trade). Sees a chance at championships in his future which he rightfully did not see in Clipperland. Of course this all depends on if they can also get Carmelo or even Paul George, which they are very clearly angling for. Did Paul have more desirable options? He certainly prefered Harden over the Spurs, from what we're told. He might have liked the Cavs, but there isn't any room there.

Rockets: As awkward as the fit seems, you're still adding a top level player who adds real class to your team. Hard to say no to this if you really want to find a way to winning. Their idea is Paul, and then George or Melo as well. Maybe then it starts to make sense.

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1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

Talking through the various trade scenario's, is there any realistic trade that gets anyone even close to even money with GSW right now?

Probably not.  The best teams in the league to challenge GSW next year are CLE and SA.  Boston and Minnesota are the next closest, and they're at least a year away, probably more. 

San Antonio doesn't have a lot of room to grow since a lot of their talent is old (Gasol, Parker, Ginobili) and Aldridge is underachieving.  I don't want to count out Pop, but it's hard to see how this team dramatically improves, since they don't have a lot to trade and they aren't getting better organically.  Chris Paul was a great fit for them, and he's in Houston now.  The best available players at this point are Paul George (via trade) and Gordon Haywood.  Either one would help, but neither guy puts San Antonio over the top.

That leaves Cleveland.  They don't really have any cap space, so they can't sign anyone noteworthy without also shipping someone out.  If they could finagle a Thompson for George trade, then they'd have a chance against GSW.  I doubt Indiana would take that.  Love for George would improve Cleveland, but not enough to close the gap.  People in this thread are talking about Love for George + Anthony in free agency, but it is hard to believe; Anthony is going to be very hard to make that work from a salary cap perspective.  And if we're being honest, while Love for George is a decent return for Indiana, they might prefer getting some draft picks and young guys from Boston vs one star.  Love is just good enough to keep Indiana on the mediocrity treadmill of either just barely making or just missing the playoffs. 

So the short answer is, if they stay healthy, nobody is going to challenge GSW next year. 

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

@Trebla,

Excellent post. There were two things you brought up that I'd like to discuss. First, the trade. It would have been a fair trade if you got a healthy LaVine and kept your pick, but as such, you got fleeced. Second, Thibs' minutes. The only reservation I had about him taking over was the minutes, and midway through last season LaVine lead the league in minutes played, Wiggins was third and Towns was in the top 15. If that continues, I fear for the longevity of this team. 

Oh I agree the Bulls got fleeced. Again what I keep hearing is that fans and the Bulls thought they should be able to get multiple 1st round picks for Butler but the league as a whole didn't believe he was worth that. Was Minnesota's offer the best they could get? I've heard it was. Now was that the best offer they have ever gotten, compared to last off-season and the trade deadline? That's the real question. My biggest beef with Bulls' management is that they have not had a real plan with this team the past few seasons. They have seemed content to build a mediocre team and sell out the United Center every night instead of wanting to build a championship team. Last off-season they said they wanted to get younger and more athletic and they promptly signed Wade and Rondo enroute to a .500 season and a first round exit. That's the epitome of NBA Hell.

Again, I agree they got fleeced and they are about be be REALLY bad. Hopefully Gar Forman gets fired and a new GM can rebuild this team over the next 3-5 seasons. 

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2 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

 

Talking through the various trade scenario's, is there any realistic trade that gets anyone even close to even money with GSW right now?

Only Cleveland has a chance, by either keeping the current team intact and strengthen the bench, or trading for George.

I think they are close enough that with George in the team, they'd be really close to GSW.

The Spurs are not equipped for it as currently constructed and with Paul to Houston and no other big thing seemingly imminent for them, I don't see them anywhere near that league. Parker is really well past his prime and injury prone, they want to get rid of Aldridge and Danny Green, Gasol is 37.

Houston would be interesting if they get Paul George. I'd still put them below Golden state but at least that creates a third contender. Right now the NBA only has 2.

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2 hours ago, Calibandar said:

Rockets: As awkward as the fit seems, you're still adding a top level player who adds real class to your team. Hard to say no to this if you really want to find a way to winning. Their idea is Paul, and then George or Melo as well. Maybe then it starts to make sense.

Darryl Morey's stated MO is to acquire as much talent as possible and worry about fit later. And it's worked out pretty well for him. He rebuilt, without bottoming out, from McGrady/Yao to this current consistent 50+ win era with Harden. Talent is an asset and if the fit is bad, just move it for another. Can't argue with him its worked out great. Just can't compete with a Spurs team that has fit, let alone a Warriors team that has both talent and fit.

The only thing that pisses me off is that Chris Paul was maybe the biggest chip on the market that could've gone to, say, San Antonio and built a real challenger to the Warriors. Or be really bold and go to Minnesota and make a younger superteam there.

Because the fit is so much less clean in Houston, think his abilities are somewhat wasted in the sense they're duplicative...in a similar way to when Lebron and Wade joined up and they ended up taking turns in those early years of who runs the offense while the other guy watches.

The only game-changing chips still out there are Paul George and Gordon Heyward. If Cleveland gets George or Boston gets both think things get interesting in 2018. Melo alone getting bought out and ending up on Cleveland doesn't move the needle enough. 

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1 hour ago, Relic said:

Not even close,  buddy. See the Knicks, Nets,  and Kings please. 

Well, what I mean about that is that teams like the Bulls, Hawks, maybe even the Trailblazers are in a position that they are no way good enough to win a tittle but not bad enough to be in position to be in the lottery. Yeah, I do imagine it also sucks to be bad every year yet not get a superstar in the lottery. Or to actually get a superstar yet still be bad like the Pelicans. I know all to well that I may regret this Bulls rebuild in 2022 where they keep spinning their wheel drafting shitty players in the lottery.

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6 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

This! It makes no sense to suggest that you can only get Melo if you keep Love. And even if the scenario is Love and Melo or George, you take George. Adding George addresses a couple of weaknesses versus the Warriors while simply adding Melo would be a redundancy. 

But even if George were off the table and they could get Melo for free, that's not something you scoff at.  Melo for free is a great bargain.  He's not much older than LeBron and still a capable scorer, and he can even defend adequately when he actually tries, which presumably he would do on a team captained by LeBron James.

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9 minutes ago, briantw said:

But even if George were off the table and they could get Melo for free, that's not something you scoff at.  Melo for free is a great bargain.  He's not much older than LeBron and still a capable scorer, and he can even defend adequately when he actually tries, which presumably he would do on a team captained by LeBron James.

 Sure, but I'd have to guess that this possibility is off the table now that Jackson has been fired, right? The Knicks aren't going to buy him out at this point.

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30 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 Sure, but I'd have to guess that this possibility is off the table now that Jackson has been fired, right? The Knicks aren't going to buy him out at this point.

Sounds like they want to try to trade him first (lol good luck), but from what I've read they still think his time in New York is done.  Honestly, I think they fired Jackson more because he was sabotaging their relationship with KP than because of the Melo buyout.  I think they want to deal with Melo privately, and from various accounts Melo was about to become publicly unruly with his buyout demand.  By firing Jackson, they bought themselves some time to try to repair the relationship a bit, attempt a trade, and then quietly buy him out if that doesn't happen.  They've also shown KP that they consider him a franchise player and that his happiness was more important to them than keeping Jackson.

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1 hour ago, briantw said:

But even if George were off the table and they could get Melo for free, that's not something you scoff at.  Melo for free is a great bargain.  He's not much older than LeBron and still a capable scorer, and he can even defend adequately when he actually tries, which presumably he would do on a team captained by LeBron James.

You're right, it's nothing to scoff at. I just don't think it helps them all that much against the Warriors. I've played with a few different lineups, and while they'd have a ton of firepower, they'd also have a ton of mismatches that the Warriors could exploit. If the Cavs add Melo, it must be primarily as a 6th man. That way LeBron can get some freaking rest. They can't win with him having to play 45+ minutes and be guarding Durant the entire time. He was so worn down by the end of the games in the Finals. And that's why I think they need George more than anyone else. And if they can't get George, they'll have to grab a guy or two from this list, which seems entirely possible:

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-free-agency-2017-breaking-down-the-best-3-and-d-guys-on-the-free-agent-market/

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15 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

You're right, it's nothing to scoff at. I just don't think it helps them all that much against the Warriors. I've played with a few different lineups, and while they'd have a ton of firepower, they'd also have a ton of mismatches that the Warriors could exploit. If the Cavs add Melo, it must be primarily as a 6th man. That way LeBron can get some freaking rest. They can't win with him having to play 45+ minutes and be guarding Durant the entire time. He was so worn down by the end of the games in the Finals. And that's why I think they need George more than anyone else. And if they can't get George, they'll have to grab a guy or two from this list, which seems entirely possible:

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-free-agency-2017-breaking-down-the-best-3-and-d-guys-on-the-free-agent-market/

I think having Melo would create just as many mismatches for the Warriors as it would for the Cavs defensively.  As I've mentioned in the past, if you're running a line-up of Kyrie/LeBron/Melo/Love, Golden State can't hide Curry on anyone.  Curry can't guard any of those four and they could pick him apart with screens even worse than they already can.  

And honestly, forcing Curry to actually work on defense is, I think, the key to beating the Warriors.  It's just that most teams don't have enough great players to do that.  Most teams have at least one weak link at the 1-3.

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