Heresy 200 The bicentennial edition

[JNR]

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But the Red Viper of Dorne was back on his feet, his long spear in hand. "Elia," he called at Ser Gregor. "You raped her. You murdered her. You killed her children. Now say her name."

The Mountain whirled. Helm, shield, sword, surcoat; he was spattered with gore from head to heels. "No I didn't," he grumbled. "That's just fake news created by the liberal media."

"Oh," said Oberyn Martell, startled. "Well! In that case, perhaps we should let bygones be bygones and set up a joint working group to investigate who really did it."

"Good idea," said Clegane with a smirk.  The two of them shook hands politely.

"It could have been the Ironborn or the free folk or the Asshai'i," said Martell, musing thoughtfully. "It could have been a four hundred pound guy lying on his bed in White Harbor."

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, MaesterSam said:

I forgot that Bran has blue eyes, good point. However, the rest of the vision has the blue-eyed king holding a glowing sword, and the king casts no shadow. Both of those fit Stannis perfectly, while so far at least not directly applying to Euron or Bran

In the dark, Bran casts no shadows.  Specifically, this is what we are told:

"Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow."

'Glowing' as a descriptor brings this passage to mind:

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A Clash of Kings - Davos II

There was no answer but a soft rustling. And then a light bloomed amidst the darkness.

Davos raised a hand to shield his eyes, and his breath caught in his throat. Melisandre had thrown back her cowl and shrugged out of the smothering robe. Beneath, she was naked, and huge with child. Swollen breasts hung heavy against her chest, and her belly bulged as if near to bursting. "Gods preserve us," he whispered, and heard her answering laugh, deep and throaty. Her eyes were hot coals, and the sweat that dappled her skin seemed to glow with a light of its own. Melisandre shone.

 

 

So I wonder if the Red Sword, glowing like sunset and the allusion to the act of being raised; has something to do with raising someone from the dead. Not as a shadow baby; but as the Red Sword of sunset as opposed to the White Sword of sunrise.

Stannis still casts a shadow after Melisandre uses his seed and his life force to make shadow-Stannis:
 

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

But most came on. Behind them was only cold and death. Ahead was hope. They came on, clutching their scraps of wood until the time came to feed them to the flames. R'hllor was a jealous deity, ever hungry. So the new god devoured the corpse of the old, and cast gigantic shadows of Stannis and Melisandre upon the Wall, black against the ruddy red reflections on the ice.

 

What Melisandre takes from Stannis is part of his life-force to augment her own when she uses sorcery.  There can be no dark without light.  The price Stannis pays for sorcery is his own life force, his light.   

[Frey family reunion]

49 minutes ago, JNR said:

Cause for the grudge is certainly there.  

But I question why, if such a thing were an option, this collective consciousness would have waited so incredibly long to take action.  

In particular, following the Andal invasion multiple thousands of years before, in which the CotF were slaughtered en masse and the weirwoods of holy High Heart reduced to stumps, it's conspicuous that the epic response from the collective consciousness was... uh... nothing..

Perhaps they adhere to the old adage that revenge is a dish best served Cold.  After all the first Long Night occurs some time after the First Men migrated and began their own cutting down of Weirwoods.  Such a cataclysm event probably takes a bit of time, patience and preparation.  It may also be that they need outside help as well.  So until they/it can recruit the necessarily allies, they must wait and brood.  Of course for trees, a few thousand years may not seem like much time at all.

Another possibility is that it was the introduction of man into the Weirnet that may have first introduced the notion of revenge into the collective consciousness.  Do we know how long that has been?  

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She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well.  It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad.  Men would be wroth.  Men would hate and swear and a swear a bloody vengeance.  The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

 

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

I don't think this means that Dany will literally slay Stannis (or whoever the king is), but that she will slay the lie - the lie that he is AA, come to defeat the darkness. She will expose him as the fraud that he is, and she will do the same to the mummer's dragon. She may not even do so on purpose; her mere existence as the mother of dragons casts serious doubts on other potential champions of fire. It's hard to compete with dragons.

I would say that Dany exposing the others as "lies" isn't even contingent upon her being a true Azor Ahai, or that a "true" Azor Ahai Reborn/flame champion/whatever even exists--as you say, the 'salvation' Stannis ostensibly offers will pale before the dragons. Stannis and his sword are "light without heat."

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Stannis still casts a shadow after Melisandre uses his seed...

While this is true in a literal sense, it still fits Stannis figuratively to a greater degree than it fits any of the other blue eyed kings--perhaps the vision is meant to reflect Stannis at the time of Renly's murder, or perhaps it's just a general metaphor for the effect of Melisandre's magic on his vitality and soul.

Furthermore, the distinction you make between the sunset glow of the sword in the vision, and, say, the sunrise glow that might be evoked by Dawn(?) is a good one, but I'd say that "glowing like sunset" is once again evocative of Stannis' fake Lightbringer--a fading glow that will disappear with the coming of the Long Night.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

Furthermore, the distinction you make between the sunset glow of the sword in the vision, and, say, the sunrise glow that might be evoked by Dawn(?) is a good one, but I'd say that "glowing like sunset" is once again evocative of Stannis' fake Lightbringer--a fading glow that will disappear with the coming of the Long Night.

Melisandre does give us the mummer's version of Lightbringer.  She maintains the fiction that Stannis is the 'chosen one' even as she casts her eye on Jon Snow.  She's a little slow to get the message about R'hllor's designs on Jon although she sees him repeatedly in her fires.

I'm not convinced that the Red Sword is a sword specifically, but rather a dragon, both a serpent and a fiery sword.  A hero can only wield that kind of sword if he or she is chosen and can become one with the sword (to paraphrase Syrio Forell's lesson).  To that end, I agree with Frey Family Reunion that Melisandre is after a specific bloodline; someone who can be forged into the instrument of her god and become one with the god-head.  Stannis isn't true steel and likely to shatter in the forging.
 

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A Clash of Kings - Jon I

"And his brothers?" Jon asked.

The armorer considered that a moment. "Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day."

 

 

 

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Perhaps they adhere to the old adage that revenge is a dish best served Cold.  After all the first Long Night occurs some time after the First Men migrated and began their own cutting down of Weirwoods.  Such a cataclysm event probably takes a bit of time, patience and preparation.  It may also be that they need outside help as well.  So until they/it can recruit the necessarily allies, they must wait and brood.  Of course for trees, a few thousand years may not seem like much time at all.

Another possibility is that it was the introduction of man into the Weirnet that may have first introduced the notion of revenge into the collective consciousness.  Do we know how long that has been?  

 

As to the first paragraph I agree. The Red Lot are clearly mad bad and dedicated to the destruction of mankind as we know it, but pray as they might to R'hllor they have been waiting centuries, if not millennia, for their champion to arise and do the dirty work. Conversely if we identify the other lot with the unburnt weirwood, they too might be working hard at their own version of destruction but likewise need someone who is in the world, and while I'm not entirely convinced about that someone being Bran, as Maester Sam has pointed out the language used in the cave suggests that he might be.

As to the second point; the trees on the Isle of Faces were given faces when the Pact was agreed

[JNR]

On 7/8/2017 at 10:40 AM, Frey family reunion said:

After all the first Long Night occurs some time after the First Men migrated and began their own cutting down of Weirwoods.  Such a cataclysm event probably takes a bit of time, patience and preparation.

Well, yes, four thousand years (in the conventional timeline) would certainly be quite a bit of time.    

But in this scenario -- basically "the CotF orchestrated the Long Night" -- it's strange that the CotF did not then leverage their power to regain control of their continent.   You'd think that would have been the whole point.

On 7/8/2017 at 10:40 AM, Frey family reunion said:

Another possibility is that it was the introduction of man into the Weirnet that may have first introduced the notion of revenge into the collective consciousness.  Do we know how long that has been?

Interesting idea.  GRRM may know, but I sure don't.  

I actually couldn't even say with confidence that it was after the Pact!  Because...

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The histories say the crannogmen grew close to the children of the forest in the days when the greenseers tried to bring the hammer of the waters down upon the Neck. It may be that they have secret knowledge.

And Jojen suggests the same, that the crannogmen know things others have forgotten.  One wonders.

I also find that idea (that human beings changed the nature of the collective consciousness) appropriate on another level -- that it resembles what happens in the skinchanging bond, in which both parties are affected, including the skinchanger.  Just writ large.

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Well, yes, four thousand years (in the conventional timeline) would certainly be quite a bit of time.    

But in this scenario -- basically "the CotF orchestrated the Long Night" -- it's strange that the CotF did not then leverage their power to regain control of their continent.   You'd think that would have been the whole point.

It is possible the children brought about the long night a part of a war and then lost the war.

 The story of the last hero suggests the childen won and men beg the children to help them.  My theory is that and after we have a few generations of peace and then men turned on the children again, almost wiping them out.

If the children are behind the white walkers return,  they are in no hurry.  I still think it was men who later learned to create or control white walkersthat brought about the current ones.  I don't think they are waiting for a leader, I think they are building a large enough army, and they may have a goal other than killing everyone. 

[TheButcherCrow]

What's up guys ?  Happy 200th to Heresy, I had to pop back in for this   Fantastic essays btw, the wheel of time one in particular has gone right up my flagpole, I am saluting that one for sure.

2 hours ago, JNR said:

I also find that idea (that human beings changed the nature of the collective consciousness) appropriate on another level -- that it resembles what happens in the skinchanging bond, in which both parties are affected, including the skinchanger.  Just writ large.

This is something I've been saying for years.  Whatever the circumstances, when humans gained the ability to access the weirnet the nature of that "godhead" changed.  Why?  Because:

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Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

Bran III - A Dance With Dragons

 

[Black Crow]

19 minutes ago, TheButcherCrow said:

What's up guys ?  Happy 200th to Heresy, I had to pop back in for this   Fantastic essays btw, the wheel of time one in particular has gone right up my flagpole, I am saluting that one for sure.

This is something I've been saying for years.  Whatever the circumstances, when humans gained the ability to access the weirnet the nature of that "godhead" changed.  Why?  Because:

 

Good to hear from you again. Stick around 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

It is possible the children brought about the long night a part of a war and then lost the war.

 The story of the last hero suggests the childen won and men beg the children to help them.  My theory is that and after we have a few generations of peace and then men turned on the children again, almost wiping them out.

If the children are behind the white walkers return,  they are in no hurry.  I still think it was men who later learned to create or control white walkersthat brought about the current ones.  I don't think they are waiting for a leader, I think they are building a large enough army, and they may have a goal other than killing everyone. 

Up to a point. If we combine the war and the Long Night, then quite a lot drops into place. That early period is referred to as the Dawn Age so it isn't too much of a stretch to see it as the Battle for the Dawn. If the Long Night the leads to the Pact rather than preceding it then we know that the price was to give faces to the trees and to take up the gods of the wood and the human sacrifices associated with them, until the Andals arrived and freed men from that bondage - as I've said before the massacres of the tree-huggers associated therewith couldn't be accomplished without the active assistance and participation of the population at large.

As to the white walkers though I have to disagree. All the accounts going back to the Long Night speak of their number being few, they are not themselves an army but rather lead armies of the slain. Like the red lot, they are awaiting a leader not an army.

[alienarea]

I guess I left a year ago (?) assuming you'd be at Heresy 200 before Winds of Winter were to be finished/published. 

Before I leave again I have to quote some of John Fogerty's lyrics:

" ... you better learn it young, because someday never comes"

[Black Crow]

Alas, too true, here's Heresy 200 but where's Winds of Winter? 

Good to hear from you old friend 

[alienarea]

8 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Alas, too true, here's Heresy 200 but where's Winds of Winter? 

Good to hear from you old friend 

Thank you

I guess it's "Gone with the Wind". As the Ferengi say, 'greed is eternal'.

Right now I'm just curious how the show will end, and expectations are very low.

 

[Black Crow]

51 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Thank you

I guess it's "Gone with the Wind". As the Ferengi say, 'greed is eternal'.

Right now I'm just curious how the show will end, and expectations are very low.

 

Agreed, judging by the previous series of the mummers version and hints of the one to come, it looks to be fan fiction rather than GRRM and as he himself has said something quite different from the book.

[JNR]

5 hours ago, TheButcherCrow said:

Whatever the circumstances, when humans gained the ability to access the weirnet the nature of that "godhead" changed.  Why?  Because

It may have changed, but I don't think it changed enough for the CotF to have been secretly planning the destruction of men in Westeros for thousands of years.

We know from Leaf, immediately prior to that passage, that they expect to vanish as a species, just as the lions already have, and the giants and direwolves soon will:

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That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well.

How many direwolves are there?  Not very many, that's for sure (though the Wolfswood is a Britain-sized, aptly-named, and underpopulated place).

It's the CotF's confident expectation of their forthcoming extinction that makes Bran notice how far from bloodthirsty for vengeance they are.  He's right; they aren't like men. 

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

All the accounts going back to the Long Night speak of their number being few, they are not themselves an army but rather lead armies of the slain.

That's true, but if we're going by "all the accounts" we're going to have to drop about half the ideas in Heresy.  

For instance, all the accounts say that the Andals slaughtered the CotF in their invasion, but no accounts say the First Men joined them in that slaughter.  

The First Men... we're told in all the accounts... more than had their hands full trying desperately to hang onto their kingdoms, which one by one were overcome by the Andals except in the North. 

[MaesterSam]

10 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, yes, four thousand years (in the conventional timeline) would certainly be quite a bit of time.    

But in this scenario -- basically "the CotF orchestrated the Long Night" -- it's strange that the CotF did not then leverage their power to regain control of their continent.   You'd think that would have been the whole point.

Interesting idea.  GRRM may know, but I sure don't.  

I actually couldn't even say with confidence that it was after the Pact!  Because...

And Jojen suggests the same, that the crannogmen know things others have forgotten.  One wonders.

I also find that idea (that human beings changed the nature of the collective consciousness) appropriate on another level -- that it resembles what happens in the skinchanging bond, in which both parties are affected, including the skinchanger.  Just writ large.

Very interesting ideas! This goes well with the foreshadowing in Bran's observation that Men would not
be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where
men would fight and kill. (Bran, ADWD)

I agree with the idea that the weirnet fundamentally changed when humans were incorporated into it. Before this, it was shaped entirely by the peaceful COTF. Then men were added in, and suddenly, the vibe of the weirnet was altered. 

As for where this fits in the timeline, of course we don't know for sure, but I would bet it was during the formation of the Pact itself. After all, this is when the green men were put in charge of the weirwoods on the Isle of Faces- an event that also marked the beginning of the First Men accepting the Old Gods as their own. It would make sense that the First Men would be more inclined to accept a religion in which they, too, have representatives, rather than worshipping someone else's collective consciousness.

However, I'm not sure it's critically important to know exactly who the first human greenseer was. Rather, the fact that over millennia, more and more human greenseers joined the collective is what resulted in a gradual change in the weirnet, IMO. 

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, JNR said:

For instance, all the accounts say that the Andals slaughtered the CotF in their invasion, but no accounts say the First Men joined them in that slaughter.  

The First Men... we're told in all the accounts... more than had their hands full trying desperately to hang onto their kingdoms, which one by one were overcome by the Andals except in the North. 

As we've discussed before in these here parts, that depends on whether they were simply the first men or were the FIRST men as in the aristos, which is what tends to happen throughout the invasions. We know the Andals were few in number and we know that they won by taking over rather than wiping out the indigenous pop, whether by war or marriage.

[Brad Stark]

By all accounts, the Children were long gone by the time the Andals arrived.  

I've tried theories moving timelines around such that the Andals cause the Long Night, but that goe against a lot of what we know.  Of course, everything we know could be wrong.

BR is connected to the wiernet, but not on the same side as whowever controls the white walkers.   If there is a malicious presence in the wiernet, it isn't throughout everything. 

[JNR]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

We know the Andals were few in number and we know that they won by taking over rather than wiping out the indigenous pop, whether by war or marriage.

Certainly at the very start of the invasion they were few.  

But once they controlled the Vale of Arryn and used it as a staging operation for an ongoing invasion that took centuries, as they proceeded west, their numbers would have increased swiftly.  Compare to the westward progress and population of European settlers in America, from about 1600 to the current day.

The Popsicle headcount, similarly, seems a bit unclear.  They are said to have led hosts of wights, but we don't really have a ratio of their leadership.  

If 5,000 Popsicles led a host of 500,000 wights, does that mean there were few Popsicles?  It depends on whether you see 5,000 as a large number in its own right, or a small number relative to the wight army. 

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

By all accounts, the Children were long gone by the time the Andals arrived.

Well, actually, here's Luwin's account:

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The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the Seven over the old gods. So the children fled north—

And here's Jeor Mormont's account:

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"The children of the forest are all dead," said Mormont. "The First Men killed half of them with bronze blades, and the Andals finished the job with iron."

And if you think of the World book as canon, there's this:

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In this same era one Andal, remembered in legend as Erreg the Kinslayer, came across the great hill of High Heart. There, while under the protection of the kings of the First Men, the children of the forest had tended to the mighty carved weirwoods that crowned it (thirty-one, according to Archmaester Laurent in his manuscript Old Places of the Trident). When Erreg's warriors sought to cut down the trees, the First Men are said to have fought beside the children, but the might of the Andals was too great. Though the children and First Men made a valiant effort to defend their holy grove, all were slain. 

So the presence of the CotF in the south when the Andals showed up is repeatedly stated.  It's also strongly implied in the Pact terms, of course... since the south had "deep woods" and those were given to the CotF in the Pact.

Of course we also have to consider the length of time involved since these events, and the fact that science has yet to be invented in this world, so there's no certainty about any of this.  The authorities, such as they are, aren't very authoritative and so we're ultimately just making common sense guesses.  

As a rule of thumb, I like the old Heretical notion that the major events happened, and in the given sequence, but the associated dates may be a bit fuzzy.