Heresy 200 The bicentennial edition

[Brad Stark]

So if the Others aren't controlled by a Night King type leader, what is controlling or motivating them?  They dueled in a 1 on 1 fashion, when they could have attacked at once.  They seem to be BRs enemy, but don't attack the weirwoods.  They aren't marching South, at least not yet.

[Black Crow]

Another way of looking at this business is to take the magic out of the story for a moment and look at the Game of Thrones. We have two great families at war; the Starks and the Lannisters, and then from the east comes the last scion of a third family, House Targaryen. All of them are deeply rounded characters whose innermost thoughts, motivations and characters are made known to us, either by observation or through their POVs, and their supporters are equally real and often memorable, even if doomed to remain in the second rank or die or both. They and the story all hang together, but then we bring the magic back in and what happens?

For the Red lot its relatively straightforward, we have Danaerys the Dragonlord and a variety of second tier characters; most notably the enigmatic Melisandre, but for the Ice its a different matter. We [may] have the dead man in the tree of course, but he's second tier; at best he's the cold Melisandre and that's why we need to seek an Icy equivalent to Danaerys among the Starks, rather than the cardboard cut-out presented by the mummers

And that, as I've said, is where we're going find the real difference between between the true story and the mummers' version. 

[Black Crow]

40 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

So if the Others aren't controlled by a Night King type leader, what is controlling or motivating them?  They dueled in a 1 on 1 fashion, when they could have attacked at once.  They seem to be BRs enemy, but don't attack the weirwoods.  They aren't marching South, at least not yet.

In the mummers version we have an army of the damned advancing on the Wall, slaying and enslaving everything they meet; they need a leader here and now, hence the guy with the weirwood face.

In the book, so far we have seen no more than six or seven of them [and the wights] which is a totally different ball-game.

 

[Brad Stark]

7 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

In the mummers version we have an army of the damned advancing on the Wall, slaying and enslaving everything they meet; they need a leader here and now, hence the guy with the weirwood face.

In the book, so far we have seen no more than six or seven of them [and the wights] which is a totally different ball-game.

 

We have seen no more than 7.  If you believe Craster's son create a ww each, there are a lot more. 

[Brad Stark]

14 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Another way of looking at this business is to take the magic out of the story for a moment and look at the Game of Thrones. We have two great families at war; the Starks and the Lannisters, and then from the east comes the last scion of a third family, House Targaryen. All of them are deeply rounded characters whose innermost thoughts, motivations and characters are made known to us, either by observation or through their POVs, and their supporters are equally real and often memorable, even if doomed to remain in the second rank or die or both. They and the story all hang together, but then we bring the magic back in and what happens?

For the Red lot its relatively straightforward, we have Danaerys the Dragonlord and a variety of second tier characters; most notably the enigmatic Melisandre, but for the Ice its a different matter. We [may] have the dead man in the tree of course, but he's second tier; at best he's the cold Melisandre and that's why we need to seek an Icy equivalent to Danaerys among the Starks, rather than the cardboard cut-out presented by the mummers

And that, as I've said, is where we're going find the real difference between between the true story and the mummers' version. 

So far, ice and fire appear each fragmented.  We don't have any evidence Melisandra and Dany will end up on the same side.   BR and the Others appear to be on opposing sides.

So we might see each side unified behind a single leader, and a big war between each side.  Or we might see everything stay fragmented,  with ice nd fire elements sometimes on the same side. 

[Matthew.]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Returning to the Nights King created by the mummers, we don't get this, because their play is necessarily designed for watchers not readers, what is subtle is made obvious; it is a caricature, but the danger is that this caricature is likely to influence perceptions of reality, when in fact the walkers are likely to be very different, far more complex and ultimately perhaps far more closely related to certain people we know

My question remains the same: in what way is the show's NK acting in contradiction to what has been established in the text with regards to the Others? What makes him a dark lord? What specific actions has he taken that are "more evil" than GRRM's Others?

Perhaps this just comes down to subjective interpretation, but it was my take away that we're not meant to read him as a "lord" who is following personal ambition, he's just another "sword without a hilt," a thing made by sorcery; he represents winter and death, because that is the nature that was forced into him by the CotF's ritual.

In that regard, looking for a "real master" for the Others might be a mistake; just because someone may have played a role in reawakening the Others, that doesn't necessarily mean they're in control of the ensuing chaos--only that they hope to capitalize upon it. For a parallel, think of Illyrio and Varys' conversation between the Red Keep: we know they intend to use Stark and Lannister hostilities to their advantage, but that doesn't mean they can micromanage what subsequently unfolds.

[Black Crow]

13 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

My question remains the same: in what way is the show's NK acting in contradiction to what has been established in the text with regards to the Others? What makes him a dark lord? What specific actions has he taken that are "more evil" than GRRM's Others?
 

In so far as he's a lord leading the army of the damned and seemingly intent on conquering the world. Gregor Clegane is mad bad and has slain too many to count but I'd never describe him as a dark lord, cos leaving aside the fact of his demise he's a ultimately sidekick.

Conversely Tywin Lannister may have behaved in some ways like a dark lord, but escapes that epithet in the roundness and indeed richness of his character, quite unlike the guy with the weirwood face.

 

[Matthew.]

17 hours ago, JNR said:

They presumably know there is life in the cave system, and they know of the ward that blocks their access, and they may even know there are CotF living there, but that's not really the same thing as thinking "Let's chop down weirwoods to inhibit the capabilities of CotF greenseers, since there might theoretically be some."

Their strategic powers also seem a little dicey in general.  If they could analyze and plan very skillfully, surely they would create boats of some sort to float around the Wall, rendering it essentially a frozen Maginot Line.  Or perhaps they will, and we just haven't seen that happen yet...

Sure, which is why I'm not going to give too much weight to the fact that the Others aren't destroying the heart trees--merely observing that it's the sort of thing that might turn out to be foreshadowing.

I've had mixed feelings about their capacity to strategize, as they've performed several actions that I believe could be read as demonstrating intellect: in attacking Royce's group (a nobleman's son, accompanied by two veterans) and allowing one veteran to escape, the Others have created a situation that was too troubling for Mormont to ignore, which is why the First Ranger is set to the job.

Subsequently, the First Ranger also goes missing, and his two companions are discovered, dead with blue eyes (playing possum?), one of whom later makes a beeline for Mormont in the dead of the night. All of this prompts the Great Ranging, taking a threadbare Night's Watch into the far north--where they're most vulnerable.

Finally, given the choice between the massive, tempting concentration of life that Mance's army must surely represent, the Others choose instead to attack the NW in force. IMO, the restraint the Others show with regards to Mance's army at least demonstrates that they don't mindlessly throw themselves at everything with warm blood.

Now, this could just be basic survival, if they don't believe they yet have the numbers to overwhelm Mance's army, but it could also be strategy--let Mance throw himself against the Wall and further weaken what's left of the Watch, then come in and resurrect what is left in their wake.

While I'm far from certain that all of this actually represents a pattern, it does strike me that, if the Others consider the NW their primary obstacle, then what we see unfolding might be a successful strategy to weaken the Watch and the Wall.

[Black Crow]

37 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

We have seen no more than 7.  If you believe Craster's son create a ww each, there are a lot more. 

There may or may not be more that seven. Thirteen sounds like a good number to pluck out of the air, but the point is that in the book they are and remain an enigma.

[Matthew.]

2 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

In so far as he's a lord leading the army of the damned and seemingly intent on conquering the world.

Well, this is where subjective interpretation comes in. Is he trying to conquer the world? If so, what leads us to believe that? Is the evidence for that somehow new and different from what we've already seen the Others doing within the books--systematically slaughtering tribes and villages, and bringing them into their army of the dead? Why do we say the NK of the show wants to conquer the world, but the Others of the books do not?

It really does seem to be the case that my hunch on the previous page was correct: that, to many readers, the Others are not cliché so long as they don't have an internal hierarchy.

[Matthew.]

To go briefly off topic, here's a new(ish) interview with GRRM that some might find to be of interest:

http://time.com/4791258/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-interview/

I'd like to single out this quote in particular:
 

Quote

...poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing.

It's not entirely revelatory, but the fact GRRM doesn't consider Beric to be truly living may be notable--it had been my assumption that the fire resurrected were obviously paying a price for their return, but were essentially "alive," that they were physically vital, yet that doesn't seem to be the case.

[LordBlakeney]

22 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Well, this is where subjective interpretation comes in. Is he trying to conquer the world? If so, what leads us to believe that? Is the evidence for that somehow new and different from what we've already seen the Others doing within the books--systematically slaughtering tribes and villages, and bringing them into their army of the dead? Why do we say the NK of the show wants to conquer the world, but the Others of the books do not?

It really does seem to be the case that my hunch on the previous page was correct: that, to many readers, the Others are not cliché so long as they don't have an internal hierarchy.

I think you're absolutely right. It seems as though detractors of the show are criticizing an idea of the Others that isn't necessarily what the show is portraying. Rather unfairly, they ascribe motives and ideas to the Others in the show and then criticize those motives, but let's remember that we hardly know any more about the Others in the show than we do in the books. 

The show hasn't told us what's motivating them, what their goal is, why they are back, why they attack what they attack, what the extent of their magical powers is, how they raise the dead, what their connection to weirwoods is, or really how they tie into the titular "Game of Thrones."

The books leave us with the same questions. The only difference seems to be aesthetically, some complain they don't "look right," and the introduction of a leader of the Other's of some kind who Bran refers to as the Night King. Aesthetically, boo hoo, that's TV get over it. As far as the Night King character goes, we don't know anything about him, and there's nothing in his behavior that contradicts the behavior of the Others in the books. 

Remember that in the books and the show, we are only in the middle of the story! No one assumes we've found out as much as we're going to find out about the Others in the books, we shouldn't expect that the show will leave us hanging either. It seems pretty clear to me that the show has signaled we will found out more and more about their motives and who they are. To criticize a barely introduced character (NK) because you don't know more about him when there are still two seasons left seems rash. The recalcitrance in this thread is exhausting sometimes.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Yes

and this distinction will take on more significance once I wrap up the Trees essay - at ToHh, the rose that should have been honored was the starry false one; instead the "true" rose of spring was given the honor.  This was a mistake.

it will all make sense after the next essay.

This makes me wonder then if Rhaegar's choice was a bit of misdirection? IF there was some bed-sharing going on between him, Elia, and Ashara...maybe he didn't want to draw attention to it?

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

So if the Others aren't controlled by a Night King type leader, what is controlling or motivating them?  They dueled in a 1 on 1 fashion, when they could have attacked at once.  They seem to be BRs enemy, but don't attack the weirwoods.  They aren't marching South, at least not yet.

If what Pretty Pig says ends up being true that Dany's flowering triggered a rebirth of magic on the ice side, then the white walkers may be a bit aimless, but a threat none the less.

18 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

To go briefly off topic, here's a new(ish) interview with GRRM that some might find to be of interest:

http://time.com/4791258/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-interview/

I'd like to single out this quote in particular:
 

It's not entirely revelatory, but the fact GRRM doesn't consider Beric to be truly living may be notable--it had been my assumption that the fire resurrected were obviously paying a price for their return, but were essentially "alive," that they were physically vital, yet that doesn't seem to be the case.

This is quite a revelation in my book anyways. I too thought Beric and Catelyn were resurrected and not just undead like Coldhands. So maybe Coldhands was actually resurrected by fire also?

[Black Crow]

49 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

To go briefly off topic, here's a new(ish) interview with GRRM that some might find to be of interest:

http://time.com/4791258/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-interview/

I'd like to single out this quote in particular:
 

It's not entirely revelatory, but the fact GRRM doesn't consider Beric to be truly living may be notable--it had been my assumption that the fire resurrected were obviously paying a price for their return, but were essentially "alive," that they were physically vital, yet that doesn't seem to be the case.

And what's of more interest is and indeed is revalatory is what Beric was set up to foreshadow

[Black Crow]

And I did enjoy this relevant bit

You want the reader to care about your characters — if they don’t, then there’s no emotional involvement. But at the same time, I want my characters to be nuanced, to be gray, to be human beings. I think human beings are all nuanced. There’s this tendency to want to make people into heroes and villains. And I think there are villains in real life and there are heroes in real life. But even the greatest heroes have flaws and do bad things, and even the greatest heroes are capable of love and pain and occasionally have moments where you can feel sympathetic for them. As much as I love science fiction and fantasy and imaginative stuff, you always have to go back to real life as your touchstone and say, What is the truth?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

There may or may not be more that seven. Thirteen sounds like a good number to pluck out of the air, but the point is that in the book they are and remain an enigma.

I have to go with nine given the number of swords in the kings of winter's crown and the number of weirwoods in the grove where Jon takes his vow.  The remaining three represented by the sword, shield and horn of the vow itself and Ghost makes 13.

It seems more likely to me that the White Walkers are transformed wildlings who regard the Night's Watch and those beyond the Wall as their enemy and their gaolers.  Whether or not they can exercise some control over the wights is another question.  This may be the purpose of the broken horn; perhaps another kind of binding horn.  

If there is a dark lord emerging; I'd have to go with Euron.

[PrettyPig]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I have to go with nine given the number of swords in the kings of winter's crown and the number of weirwoods in the grove where Jon takes his vow.  

I'll go with this since the Others are basically the Nazgul - bit instead of Ringwraiths, they'll be Swordwraiths or some such.

[LynnS]

20 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

I'll go with this since the Others are basically the Nazgul - bit instead of Ringwraiths, they'll be Swordwraiths or some such.

Now we are two.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Jon VI

Perhaps it was all in the knowing. They had ridden past the end of the world; somehow that changed everything. Every shadow seemed darker, every sound more ominous. The trees pressed close and shut out the light of the setting sun. A thin crust of snow cracked beneath the hooves of their horses, with a sound like breaking bones. When the wind set the leaves to rustling, it was like a chilly finger tracing a path up Jon's spine. The Wall was at their backs, and only the gods knew what lay ahead.

The sun was sinking below the trees when they reached their destination, a small clearing in the deep of the wood where nine weirwoods grew in a rough circle. Jon drew in a breath, and he saw Sam Tarly staring. Even in the wolfswood, you never found more than two or three of the white trees growing together; a grove of nine was unheard of. The forest floor was carpeted with fallen leaves, bloodred on top, black rot beneath. The wide smooth trunks were bone pale, and nine faces stared inward. The dried sap that crusted in the eyes was red and hard as ruby. Bowen Marsh commanded them to leave their horses outside the circle. "This is a sacred place, we will not defile it."

When they entered the grove, Samwell Tarly turned slowly looking at each face in turn. No two were quite alike. "They're watching us," he whispered. "The old gods."

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn I

Her son's crown was fresh from the forge, and it seemed to Catelyn Stark that the weight of it pressed heavy on Robb's head.

The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror when Torrhen Stark knelt in submission. What Aegon had done with it no man could say. Lord Hoster's smith had done his work well, and Robb's crown looked much as the other was said to have looked in the tales told of the Stark kings of old; an open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black iron spikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold.

 

 

 

 

[Black Crow]

I'm [naughtily] reminded of the 13 who set out on that Parsifal quest to find the three-fingered tree-huggers

[alienarea]

Obviously the dark lord to emerge will be Bran. 

Jaime had the chance to end it but messed up.

And, going by the latest GRRM Quote, Jon is dead but moves. Fits the acting.