Heresy 200 The bicentennial edition

[Black Crow]

Well it certainly moved after that interview, so thank you for all who have contributed to the bicentennial whether by writing essays or simply joining in the debate. 

Time now to continue on Heresy 201, which is open and ready for business 

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

If anything, that's why comparisons to a Sauron-like figure don't really apply--to repeat the comparison I made a few pages ago, he's a sword without a hilt, a personification of winter and death. He's not a tyrant who has seized power and is unveiling his grand plan, he's just fulfilling his programming. Put another way, it might be more fair to compare him to the dragons than a human villain; he's one of the show's threats of Ice and Fire that's looming over Westeros.

Which also causes me to suspect that the important question here remains the same: why are the Others back now?

The Others, and to a lesser extent the dragons, are weapons,  in some ways metaphores for nuclear weapons.   They aren't written as characters with complex motives.  They really aren't evil, as they really aren't making choices.

I'd like to see more about what is going on with the Others.   Jaremy Rykker was successfully assassinated and Moromont was attempted.  Why are the wildlings looking for the horn now that the Others are back?  I believe Craster is a slave (and a crow said he was) who's slave is he?  Where is Benjen?  I think there is a lot hidden in the text that hasn't been discussed yet.

[LynnS]

7 minutes ago, LordBlakeney said:

I agree that he can be Jon Targaryen without being the central character.

I question it because the assumption is that Jon must have the blood of the dragon to be said hero and we've been told a story about Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna.  The prophecy that the PwiP will come from Aerys' line is decidedly male centered.  While I think there is something to this prophecy in producing Dany; I think it is the female bloodline that carries the required genes beginning with Aegon V and Betha Blackwood.  The female line shouldn't be discounted in producing the Prince.  The Baratheon line traces the dragon blood back to Aegon as well.

Shireen manifests her dragon blood in the form of greyscale; half her face is scaled like a dragon's egg.  As unpopular as it is; I'm still on Wolfmaid's bench.   Jon may take after is maternal great-great grandmother with his dark hair and dark eyes.

[LordBlakeney]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Jon may take after is maternal great-great grandmother with his dark hair and dark eyes.

I believe the secret surrounding Jon Snow's ancestry will be much more immediate in his family tree. Going back multiple generations to find out why he's special misses the mark: GRRM left his parentage a mystery; if anything is special about him, it will be because of those two people, not some distant ancestor.

[LynnS]

Just now, LordBlakeney said:

I believe the secret surrounding Jon Snow's ancestry will be much more immediate in his family tree. Going back multiple generations to find out why he's special misses the mark: GRRM left his parentage a mystery; if anything is special about him, it will be because of those two people, not some distant ancestor.

Baloney. 

[LordBlakeney]

@LynnS of course I don't mean to say that the ancestry is irrelevant; bloodlines are obviously important in this world, and his ancestors will matter. Just that the more immediate cause of what sets him apart will be his parents.

[LordBlakeney]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Baloney.

Should have added this to my first post:

Just now, LordBlakeney said:

@LynnS of course I don't mean to say that the ancestry is irrelevant; bloodlines are obviously important in this world, and his ancestors will matter. Just that the more immediate cause of what sets him apart will be his parents.

I mean that a central mystery of the series. It is constantly referenced across many POVs.

The ancestry thing gets kind of circular. I mean yeah his ancestors matter but they only matter because of who his parents are. If the mystery gets revealed the "A-HA!" moment for readers will not be "Of course! It's because his 5th great grandparent is a Royce!" or something along those lines. It will be his parents that make him special.

[ravenous reader]

9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

dark eyes

He doesn't have blue eyes.  Give up on Schmobert!  

[ravenous reader]

Cheesy trope or not, the fact remains that some people are just more heroic than others, because they choose the 'right' moral route, even under difficult circumstances, and at extreme cost to themselves, when most others would capitulate and take the easy way out.  For example, Jon in his essential kindness, generosity and focus on 'the greater good', is just simply more heroic than Sansa with all her weaselisms, understandable self-defense mechanisms though they may be.

Certain individuals are just more willing to sacrifice themselves for others, so we admire them and call them heroes:

Quote

Mandela Rejects S. African Terms for Prison Release

February 11, 1985|MICHAEL PARKS | Times Staff Writer, LA Times

SOWETO, South Africa — Nelson Mandela, the imprisoned leader of the African National Congress, on Sunday firmly rejected the South African government's offer of conditional freedom and instead set forth his own terms for negotiations between his outlawed organization and the nation's white regime.

"I cannot sell my birthright nor am I prepared to sell the birthright of the people to be free," Mandela, 66, declared in a message from his prison cell in Cape Town, where he is serving a life sentence imposed in 1964 after his conviction on charges of sabotage and plotting revolution.

"I cannot and will not give any undertaking at a time when I and you, the people, are not free," he said. "Your freedom and mine cannot be separated."

South African President Pieter W. Botha, in a gesture meant to demonstrate his government's commitment to reform, had offered to free Mandela and other black nationalist leaders if they renounced violence as a means of fighting apartheid (institutionalized separation of the races) and agreed to obey the country's strict internal security laws.

 

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

He doesn't have blue eyes.  Give up on Schmobert!  

He doesn't have purple eyes either.  RLJ is fan fiction.  The line of succession goes to the male in a male dominated society; the importance of the female bloodline is dismissed except for breeding purposes which should underscore it's importance.

[ravenous reader]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

He doesn't have purple eyes either.  RLJ is fan fiction.  The line of succession goes to the male in a male dominated society; the importance of the female bloodline is dismissed except for breeding purposes which should underscore it's importance.

Robert Baratheon slept with a great many different women, often when inebriated, ensuring a suitably random selection in terms of genetic recombination.  Regardless of whom he succeeded in impregnating, however, none of the progeny has anything other than blue eyes.  

[Brad Stark]

41 minutes ago, LordBlakeney said:

Should have added this to my first post:

I mean that a central mystery of the series. It is constantly referenced across many POVs.

The ancestry thing gets kind of circular. I mean yeah his ancestors matter but they only matter because of who his parents are. If the mystery gets revealed the "A-HA!" moment for readers will not be "Of course! It's because his 5th great grandparent is a Royce!" or something along those lines. It will be his parents that make him special.

I think bloodlines are important for 2 reasons.  If someone's ancestor did something of consequence, they are tied to that.  I think we will see a Targaryan ancestor either create, bind or become a dragon, thereafter all their descendants inherit affinity to dragons.

We also have hints that Children and men married.  I think we will see Bran and other greenseers, skinchangers and such have Children for ancestors.

So ancestry is not circular, some people are special so their descendents are special.

[Lady Dyanna]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

A bit more about this.  

Snowfyre pointed me to an ASOIAF passage a while ago and asked me what I thought of it.  The passage was this:

Just a few notes...

1. The Chronicles of Prydain, a post-Tolkien fantasy series from the sixties, features as its protagonist a teen boy who is an "assistant pig-keeper."

2. The series ends like this: And thus did an Assistant Pig-Keeper become High King of Prydain. 

3. GRRM not only says pig boys never fare so well, but by the end of that chapter, his character Pate is dead, murdered by a Faceless Man.

If you want to read the above as GRRM's in-canon mockery of those who expect ASOIAF to turn out like the Prydain books, I certainly won't tell you you're wrong.    

Hmm.... Maybe. But then how would you explain Sam. Seems to me that he might be the quintessential "Pig Boy." 

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

In particular, I'm keeping in mind that there was a Night's King in the text, a man who lost his soul, and later bound his brothers with sorcery and sacrificed to the Others--perhaps D&D have invented pure show-only fan fiction from that tale, or perhaps that tale is in the text in the first place because it contains important hints.

Well, let's go ahead and assume (while admitting it's just an assumption) that most of his tales/myths contain important hints.

Even so, the canonical Night's King is this sort of entity:

• A human being

• Who is never said to become a Popsicle

• Who is the Lord Commander of the Watch

• Who has a wife (of some sort...)

• Who lived thousands of years ago (if he lived at all -- we don't know)

If there ever were to be a stage version of ASOIAF in which this mythical character were adapted, I would expect him to be quite different.  Perhaps something like this:

• Not a human being

• Definitely established to have become a Popsicle

• Definitely not the Lord Commander of the Watch

• Romantically single as far as the groundlings watching the play can detect

• Who exists in the current tale, and is never said to have any ancient precedent

In other words, the stage version would be such an incredibly corrupted distortion of the original, it would suggest that the playwrights simply took one look at the character's title, said to themselves "Aha, that's a good name for the Dark Lord our simplistic play demands," and went about creating a near-opposite of the canonical original.

Of course, there's no way to know for sure.  Not without asking these imaginary playwrights in Essos and finding out.

[JNR]

13 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

But then how would you explain Sam. Seems to me that he might be the quintessential "Pig Boy." 

It could happen.  If he eventually becomes the King of Westeros after defeating a Dark Lord and fulfilling an ancient prophecy, I'll agree.  

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Robert Baratheon slept with a great many different women, often when inebriated, ensuring a suitably random selection in terms of genetic recombination.  Regardless of whom he succeeded in impregnating, however, none of the progeny has anything other than blue eyes.  

Yes, the blue-eyed wall of death argument... Jon should have purple eyes if he is Jon Targaryen.  The argument against is that the egg is stronger than the seed.   The seed is strong refers to the characteristics of strength handed down to Jon.  Jon is the true steel, not likely to shatter like iron.

Once again Robert's nuanced death bed scene and Ned who has hidden the truth, lied to Robert.  There is a sub-context here.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII

"Robert …" Joffrey is not your son, he wanted to say, but the words would not come. The agony was written too plainly across Robert's face; he could not hurt him more. So Ned bent his head and wrote, but where the king had said "my son Joffrey," he scrawled "my heir" instead. The deceit made him feel soiled. The lies we tell for love, he thought. May the gods forgive me. "What else would you have me say?”

 

 

Up until Robert's death; Ned was preparing to tell him the truth about Cersei's offspring.  He wasn't going to hide that truth.  What truth is he hiding?

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII

"Serve the boar at my funeral feast," Robert rasped. "Apple in its mouth, skin seared crisp. Eat the bastard. Don't care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned."

"I promise." Promise me, Ned, Lyanna's voice echoed.

"The girl," the king said. "Daenerys. Let her live. If you can, if it … not too late … talk to them … Varys, Littlefinger … don't let them kill her. And help my son, Ned. Make him be … better than me." He winced. "Gods have mercy."

 

Why does Martin connect Ned's promises to Lyanna's and his promise to Robert to help his son?  Ned certainly isn't thinking about Joffrey or Gendry in relation to Lyanna.

So perhaps Jon is the "promised prince" through the Baratheon bloodline.  The lies we tell for love.

Not only do we have a boar that kills Robert; we have skinchanger and his boar who show up in a menacing fashion at the end of Dance.   Followed by Jon's death.

[Lady Dyanna]

14 minutes ago, JNR said:

It could happen.  If he eventually becomes the King of Westeros after defeating a Dark Lord and fulfilling an ancient prophecy, I'll agree.  

You never know... He has already slated a ww and slept with Craster's daughter. Not many men can brag of those exploits.  

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

He doesn't have purple eyes either.  RLJ is fan fiction.  The line of succession goes to the male in a male dominated society; the importance of the female bloodline is dismissed except for breeding purposes which should underscore it's importance.

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Robert Baratheon slept with a great many different women, often when inebriated, ensuring a suitably random selection in terms of genetic recombination.  Regardless of whom he succeeded in impregnating, however, none of the progeny has anything other than blue eyes.  

You mean other than Jon? 

[Lady Dyanna]

19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Up until Robert's death; Ned was preparing to tell him the truth about Cersei's offspring.  He wasn't going to hide that truth.  What truth is he hiding?

Not to mention that I believe there is no mention of "broken promises" until Ned is in the black cells. Why all of a sudden is the promise broken? What else happened that could have done that other than Robert dying?

[LynnS]

30 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

You never know... He has already slated a ww and slept with Craster's daughter. Not many men can brag of those exploits.  

You mean other than Jon? 

We only know of some of Robert's bastards, so who can say.

 

[Lady Dyanna]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

We only know of some of Robert's bastards, so who can say.

 

 

I was thinking that exact same thing. According to Cersei's prophesy he has a lot more than the handful that we have met. Besides. GRRM isn't all that great at eyes, is he? What color are Renly's eyes again?