Heresy 200 The bicentennial edition

[LordBlakeney]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

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I just wish I could see @JNR's face when GRRM publishes Jon Targaryen slaying the dark lord the Night King

Uh huh.  I wish you could have seen my face when I read that sentence.  

It's not every day someone writes a line capable of making me laugh out loud.  Even in inadvertent cases, it's an achievement of sorts.

Full quote for context, bolded for the word you missed:

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I just wish I could see @JNR's face when GRRM publishes Jon Targaryen slaying the dark lord the Night King, taking the Iron Throne with Dany as his wife and Tyrion as his Hand, and setting the realm to rights. (facetious, but call me old fashioned, I do believe Good is going to beat Evil in these books)

I wish I could see your face when you find out what facetious means.

 

[JNR]

On the subject of whether ASOIAF has a protagonist, here's an interesting remark in the new Time interview:

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I had a number of meetings long before David and Dan, with people who said this is the next Lord of the Rings franchise. But they couldn’t get a handle on the size of the material, the very thing that I set out to do. I had all these meetings saying, “There’s too many characters, it’s too big — Jon Snow is the central character. We’ll eliminate all the other characters and we’ll make it about Jon Snow.” Or “Daenerys is the central character. We’ll eliminate everyone else and make the movie about Daenerys.” And I turned down all those deals. 

I think GRRM is unusually plain-spoken here.

You see much the same thinking in his 1993 summary:

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All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players.

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Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. 

There's not even a faint whiff of the idea that he designed this series around a single protagonist/hero.  

Instead the series is, in his mind at that time at least, a "complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view" and has "five central characters."

That's not to say none of them are sympathetic.  Of course they are.  I think GRRM expects most of us to like and root for Jon, and Dany, and Tyrion (though he might be shocked at some of the comments about Dany and Tyrion in the forums).

But they aren't protagonists, either.  These books are not titled Jon Snow and the Daughterfucking Wildling, or Dany Targaryen and the Bay Full of Slavery, and there is no character from whose POV most of the action takes place.  

ASOIAF is instead what he said it would be in 1993: a complex mosaic of intercutting POVs.  And so is GOT, although D&D are not remotely as adept as GRRM.

[Black Crow]

lets ease off a little please, remember All that we ask in heresy is that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour. Its kept us going through 200 iterations of this thread, so lets keep it that way

[Black Crow]

4 minutes ago, JNR said:

On the subject of whether ASOIAF has a protagonist, here's an interesting remark in the new Time interview:

I think GRRM is unusually plain-spoken here.

You see much the same thinking in his 1993 summary:

There's not even a faint whiff of the idea that he designed this series around a single protagonist/hero.  

Instead the series is, in his mind at that time at least, a "complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view" and has "five central characters."

That's not to say none of them are sympathetic.  Of course they are.  I think GRRM expects most of us to like and root for Jon, and Dany, and Tyrion (though he might be shocked at some of the comments about Dany and Tyrion in the forums).

But they aren't protagonists, either.  These books are not titled Jon Snow and the Daughterfucking Wildling, or Dany Targaryen and the Bay Full of Slavery, and there is no character from whose POV most of the action takes place.  

ASOIAF is instead what he said it would be in 1993: a complex mosaic of intercutting POVs.  And so is GOT, although D&D are not remotely as adept as GRRM.

Which is also of course why its not The Mystery of Jon Snow.

There is a mystery of course, but its not one which the whole story revolves around

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Which is also of course why its not The Mystery of Jon Snow.

There is a mystery of course, but its not one which the whole story revolves around

It's more like the mystery of Jon Snow, the mystery of Danaearys, the mystery of the White Walkers, the mystery of Bloodraven, the mystery of Illyrio and Varys, the mystery of Dorne, the mystery of Littlefinger, the mystery of Braavos,  the mystery of Gendry, the mystery of Brienne ect ect.

But the biggest mystery of all is how he's going to wrap all of this up into a cohesive narrative.  Which I think explains the six plus year delay for WOW.

[Melifeather]

10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I saw that interview. I read this as show only info, otherwise, George is spoiling his own books because Jon has only just been stabbed and we are supposed to still wonder what is happening (bookwise). And the show only has Mel there. No other options and no answers for the wights besides show Night King raising them. I guess I am now curious if other people think George was talking book info here. 

The interview was about how the show and books are different, but I took his comments about Beric as applying to the books. I don't believe the show has stressed how many times Beric was resurrected...I could be wrong though. And if it is about the show, then they haven't shown how Jon is now different, so I think GRRM was talking about his version.

9 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

Ooooh I love it!!!! 

The fact that the Others appear to consider the NW their primary opponent (judging by the effort they have spent on it, as you explained so well) is evidence in itself that they possess intelligence. They don't just go after anything with hot blood in its veins; if they did, they would be gorging themselves on wildlings, and wouldn't look twice at the NW until their human supply ran out in the far North.  Instead, they are clearly aware that the Wall and NW are standing between them and most of Westeros, and they are working on trying to find a way to get across.

It's also interesting that, unlike in the mummer's version, the Others do not appear to be actively building a large army of the dead North of the Wall (aside from, of course, the wights that will automatically be raised when someone dies). Their main goal is not to kill as many people as possible. Instead, they dueled Ser Waymar, sent trojan wights into Castle Black to attack the Lord Commander, attacked a well armed, well trained opponent who had the high ground rather than the extremely vulnerable wildlings nearby, and didn't even move in for the kill after the battle at the Wall, when the wildlings were trapped with their backs to the Wall- literally!, and with no means of escape. 

I remember various discussions, here and elsewhere, in which the idea was floated that the Others seemed to be herding the wildlings to the Wall deliberately. I don't think I remember anyone suggesting that they are doing it so the wildlings will attack the Wall for them though, and that fits so very well!! They harassed them just enough to get them to unite under Mance and then herded them to the Wall, essentially forcing them to attack it. Maybe they hoped that Mance would find the Horn of Joramun, but even without that, if the tunnel were breached, who knows.... 

Old Nan told us that the Others can't pass the Wall as long as the men of the NW are true - so what happens if the last NW brother is killed off?

I still lean towards thinking that the white walkers are leading or acting as vanguard for the wildlings, but I also lean towards the wildlings as being responsible for collecting Craster's sons and completing the ritual sacrifices necessary to create white walkers. Craster does say that Mance stopped and talked to him. Craster may have been sacrificing for years, because he says he's a godly man. It's only recently that the sacrifice has been working. That's how Craster can sacrifice so many sons and  then only have a small handful of white walkers.

 

8 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

The messed up thing is there are several characters not named Jon who can fill this role.

I agree with you about Jon.But I think he doesn't have to start out dead.

I still seem to be the only one who don't see the Others action in the book as evil.The show hell yeah ,but they took some licence with how a lot of those scenes went down.Again it seems a matter of perception.

1.Waymar issued a challange it was answered.

2.Paul decided to come after Ser Crackles with an axe;Crackles responded.Ser Crackles left his back open to two opponents(I don't know who thought him to do that) a fat man stabbed him in the back.

3.If you believe they are Crasters sons they are  rescued babies dumped by their human parent.

How are they evil?

Beric wouldn't be the same as a white walker though.White walkers aren't dead.They are the no product of  enchanting ice and snow.

Beric is as you say more along the Coldhands route.

Is he speaking show wise? Its what I get .Big spoiler calling Beric a eight raised through fire medium.I would love it to be so because it adds more credence to there being just a two faced want to be god.

The Watch doesn't seem to know much about anything do they.One of the silliest contradictions.They know to blow the horn (3) times when they see "Others" but completely forgot what kills them.

What were they going to use had Jon not found Obsidian which Sam could use later...Harsh language?

How do you forget a thing like that.An Obsidian dagger should be hanging in the hall with a caption

"One eyed Willy killed Popsicle in The Great War for the Dawn."

As for intelligence of the Wights.I pointed this out as part of my greater The Cold entity theory.In instances where wights were close and personal we get a telling description about some of their eyes "They see" as if someone was behind them looking.

Still say the intelligence we are looking at is an uber Skinchanger.

Well the tune about r+l=j being subtle is no longer the case.When its lack in subtly has been pointed out;the  new rebuttal is its not about the lack of subtly but about what happened.

I agree with you though.You know who I blame for this...lol.We are preprogrammed to look at a story that seems to have all the elements to form a pattern done a hundred times.

And I get it, I could understand the conclusion.But to go back to the scene in the crypt.That was the moment I believe GRRM laid two bricks.

One brick was the beginning of "Red Herring Highway". The other was "Answer Hidden in Plainsight Avenue."

I took the interview as GRRM comparing his intentions with regards to Beric and Lady Stoneheart. He is jumping back and forth, but if you look at what he says about Lady Stoneheart you can count on it being about the books since she's not a character on the show. And as I mentioned to Leach above the show hasn't shown how Jon is different now at all. No comparison, no parallel to Beric demonstrated, so I think he was talking about the books.

[LordBlakeney]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

There's not even a faint whiff of the idea that he designed this series around a single protagonist/hero.  

Instead the series is, in his mind at that time at least, a "complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view" and has "five central characters."

That's not to say none of them are sympathetic.  Of course they are.  I think GRRM expects most of us to like and root for Jon, and Dany, and Tyrion (though he might be shocked at some of the comments about Dany and Tyrion in the forums).

But they aren't protagonists, either.  These books are not titled Jon Snow and the Daughterfucking Wildling, or Dany Targaryen and the Bay Full of Slavery, and there is no character from whose POV most of the action takes place.

I never said there has to be a single protagonist/antagonist. Your writing betrays your ignorance of the literary notion of a "protagonist." A story is not required to have only one central, heroic character in order to have a protagonist. A story can have multiple, and multiple antagonists as well! Romeo and Juliet is a famous and simple example of a story with two protagonists, and Macbeth is a great story whose protagonist is definitely not a hero.

A protagonist is more something you define with hindsight. Stephen Koch defined it this way: "The protagonist is the character whose fate matters most to the story."

If you thought by saying the story will have a protagonist I meant that Jon Snow or Daenerys will wind up being the ultimate hero I apologize (though I do believe that is most likely). Frodo is pretty clearly the protagonist of the Lord of the Rings (many argue it is actually Sam) even though Aragorn gets the Kingdom, the Girl, and the "happily ever after."

Someone or someones will wind up being our story's protagonist, likely Bran, or maybe whomever the "three heads of the dragon" are.

[The Fattest Leech]

35 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The interview was about how the show and books are different, but I took his comments about Beric as applying to the books. I don't believe the show has stressed how many times Beric was resurrected...I could be wrong though. And if it is about the show, then they haven't shown how Jon is now different, so I think GRRM was talking about his version.

~snipped~

I took the interview as GRRM comparing his intentions with regards to Beric and Lady Stoneheart. He is jumping back and forth, but if you look at what he says about Lady Stoneheart you can count on it being about the books since she's not a character on the show. And as I mentioned to Leach above the show hasn't shown how Jon is different now at all. No comparison, no parallel to Beric demonstrated, so I think he was talking about the books.

Haha. Thanks. I should learn better before trying to decipher George before coffee. It was the jumping back and forth that got me

[LynnS]

38 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Haha. Thanks. I should learn better before trying to decipher George before coffee. It was the jumping back and forth that got me

LOL, You're not the only one who suffers from George's helmet of confusion spell.

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

the biggest mystery of all is how he's going to wrap all of this up into a cohesive narrative.  Which I think explains the six plus year delay for WOW.

As good a theory as any.  

I'm not sure; I've seen him say things like "I should have just kept going after I finished ADWD," which suggest to me he did not keep going, but instead took much too long off and lost his sense of making regular progress.

Well, it happens.  The fix is to realize it, get off the couch, and get going again.  If he hands the book in this year, and it's good, and it appears that it really does cover half the remaining story, then all will be forgiven -- at least in this household.  

But at that point, I may also send him a telegram...

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YOU SHOULD KEEP GOING STOP NO WAIT DON'T STOP STOP THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEANT STOP I'M SAYING DEFINITELY DON'T STOP STOP.

 

[MaesterSam]

9 hours ago, Matthew. said:

The problem I see with this is the fate of the wildlings that were lead to Hardhome:

Melisandre I, ADWD:
 

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Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained.

The bolded, IMO, is specifically meant to imply the presence of white walkers.

I agree that this looks bad. No way around it. LOL

 However, Cotter Pyke's letter (below) actually seems to suggest the Others didn't wipe out the entire colony in one night, as there are still many living wildlings around when he sends the letter.

9 hours ago, Matthew. said:

In addition, from Jon XII:

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At Hardhome, with six ships. Wild seas. Blackbird lost with all hands, two Lyseni ships driven aground on Skane, Talon taking water. Very bad here. Wildlings eating their own dead. Dead things in the woods. Braavosi captains will only take women, children on their ships. Witch women call us slavers. Attempt to take Storm Crow defeated, six crew dead, many wildlings. Eight ravens left. Dead things in the water. Send help by land, seas wracked by storms. From Talon, by hand of Maester Harmune.

The letter sounds very ominous but really the problems are caused by the Braavosi captains not wanting to take men, by the wildling witches not trusting the NW, and at one point wildlings even trying to take over a ship. Additionally, Pyke has lost several ships to severe storms in the Narrow Sea, and the wildlings ran out of food some time ago. None of this has anything to do with the Others, and the "dead things in the woods/water" don't receive any special mention - they are one of many problems. Still, Pyke seems to think if Jon came by land, having to face the dead things, this would be safer than facing the stormy seas. And the wildlings think it's safer to stay than get on the NW's ships. Neither of these make me think that the wights are high on anyone's list of concerns. 

 

7 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Ah! I was tempted earlier to say that the Night King can't possibly be a dark lord, because he isn't the Sauron of the story--he's the Witch King; weirnet is the Sauron of the story.

But if it's the weirnet sending the Long Night, that wouldn't make it a dark lord b/c it's motive wouldn't be "evil"- it would most likely be self defense.

We've established that the COTF are apparently nearing extinction. We also know that when they die, they go into the weirnet, where they can live forever as a collective of sorts. It also seems likely that, in order for all those dead COTF to continue their afterlife, at least some weirwoods need to remain alive in the world. Ok, so if you were the last handful of COTF and you knew your days were numbered, wouldn't you try to put in place a safeguard to forever protect the weirwood trees, even after all COTF are gone from the world? And how better to do this than a winter that never ends, where everything dies except the weirwoods which will live forever regardless of the season. Fire consumes, but ice preserves. A frozen-over Westeros would protect the weirnet indefinitely, and allow the COTF a long, undisturbed afterlife. 

 

[alienarea]

If (book-) Jon is a fire wight, he will not sit the iron throne in the end, in case its still there.

So GRRM is spoiling his future books, kind of.

Which I take as an indication that he isn't really planning on writing them anymore.

"Do or don't, there is no try."

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

I agree that this looks bad. No way around it. LOL

It do, but while Cotter Pike's letter does offer a caveat, we don't know whether the vision is necessarily in real time or something yet to come or might never be

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Haha. Thanks. I should learn better before trying to decipher George before coffee. It was the jumping back and forth that got me

The jumping back and forth certainly didn't help, context is everything and the whole interview from start to finish was a big disclaimer in which he told us straight out that the book is going to be very different from the mummers' version. One of the other things I found interesting was his referencing the Santa Fe meeting, where he filled them in on his who lives who dies intentions [as of that time]* and how long ago that was - and that he has had no input since then into what is in effect an exercise in fan-fiction.

*it was also interesting to read his re-iteration as to how flexible he still is in where his character arcs go.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

If (book-) Jon is a fire wight, he will not sit the iron throne in the end, in case its still there.

So GRRM is spoiling his future books, kind of.

Which I take as an indication that he isn't really planning on writing them anymore.

"Do or don't, there is no try."

And Jon Snow, too, is drained by the experience of coming back from the dead on the show.

Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing.

http://time.com/4791258/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-interview/

Although the question about Jon Snow was an interjection while GRRM was talking about Beric and Lady Stoneheart, we can't ignore how Beric "was set up as the foreshadowing of all this" and that thereby "we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing."

I think therefore that there's no doubt GRRM was indeed including our [book] Jon's fate, but at the same time I think that it opens up some exciting possibilities from a literary point of view. As Son of Coldhands it no longer matters if whether he was the son of Rhaegar Targaryen or should be sitting on the Iron Throne - but as a major POV character he is going to have to deal with his altered state and everything that flows from that; we've had glimpses of it from Beric and from Coldhands, but I'm really looking forward to this one and of course it also has had its foreshadowing long before Beric in the shape of his dog being called Ghost; which in retrospect is a clue as subtle as the proverbial train crash.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

And Jon Snow, too, is drained by the experience of coming back from the dead on the show.

Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing.

http://time.com/4791258/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-interview/

Although the question about Jon Snow was an interjection while GRRM was talking about Beric and Lady Stoneheart, we can't ignore how Beric "was set up as the foreshadowing of all this" and that thereby "we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing."

I think therefore that there's no doubt GRRM was indeed including our [book] Jon's fate, but at the same time I think that it opens up some exciting possibilities from a literary point of view. As Son of Coldhands it no longer matters if whether he was the son of Rhaegar Targaryen or should be sitting on the Iron Throne - but as a major POV character he is going to have to deal with his altered state and everything that flows from that; we've had glimpses of it from Beric and from Coldhands, but I'm really looking forward to this one and of course it also has had its foreshadowing long before Beric in the shape of his dog being called Ghost; which in retrospect is a clue as subtle as the proverbial train crash.

Yes, the wierwood dog, with no voice, offering Jon the cold hand of Jafr would seem to point in that direction.   Then again we have Jon fighting off the cold hand offered by Othor and placing his own hand in the fire.  R'hllor's instrument in other words.  I'm not expecting anything as straight forward as Jon transformed into a fire wight or and ice wight.  I expect he will be put together with crooked stitching into some combination of both.  The soul of fire that burns against the night encased in ice.  Frozen fire, a wight that can draw on both the power of ice and fire. 

[Black Crow]

Just now, LynnS said:

Yes, the wierwood dog, with no voice, offering Jon the cold hand of Jafr would seem to point in that direction.   Then again we have Jon fighting off the cold hand offered by Othor and placing his own hand in the fire.  R'hllor's instrument in other words.  I'm not expecting anything as straight forward as Jon transformed into a fire wight or and ice wight.  I expect he will be put together with crooked stitching into some combination of both.  The soul of fire that burns against the night encased in ice.  Frozen fire in other words; a wight that can draw on both the power of ice and fire. 

While Beric was certainly re-animated by fire and passed on the same "gift" to the late Catelyn Tully, Coldhands although otherwise indistinguishable is at one with the Old Gods, which would suggest that the same magic can be accessed by both sides and that while Jon might be re-animated by Fire he need not be in thrall to it.

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

While Beric was certainly re-animated by fire and passed on the same "gift" to the late Catelyn Tully, Coldhands although otherwise indistinguishable is at one with the Old Gods, which would suggest that the same magic can be accessed by both sides and that while Jon might be re-animated by Fire he need not be in thrall to it.

I can see Melisandre forcing Jon's soul out of Ghost as suggested by LML in the manner of Orel and his eagle; I'm just not sure that the kiss of fire is enough.  Beric wasn't a skinchanger.   There is the salt and smoke prophecy:
 

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

"I have made mistakes, I have admitted as much, but—"

"A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady. Where is Stannis? What of Rattleshirt and his spearwives? Where is my sister?"

 

That's slightly different than what Mel says to Jon:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon X

"He is not dead. Stannis is the Lord's chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark. I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt."

 

Dragonstone isn't the only place of smoke and salt:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV

Wick Whittlestick wore the keys on a ring about his neck. They all looked alike to Jon, yet somehow Wick found the right one for every door. Once inside, he would take a fist-sized chunk of chalk from his pouch and mark each cask and sack and barrel as he counted them while Marsh compared the new count to the old.

In the granaries were oats and wheat and barley, and barrels of coarse ground flour. In the root cellars strings of onions and garlic dangled from the rafters, and bags of carrots, parsnips, radishes, and white and yellow turnips filled the shelves. One storeroom held wheels of cheese so large it took two men to move them. In the next, casks of salt beef, salt pork, salt mutton, and salt cod were stacked ten feet high. Three hundred hams and three thousand long black sausages hung from ceiling beams below the smokehouse. In the spice locker they found peppercorns, cloves, and cinnamon, mustard seeds, coriander, sage and clary sage and parsley, blocks of salt. Elsewhere were casks of apples and pears, dried peas, dried figs, bags of walnuts, bags of chestnuts, bags of almonds, planks of dry smoked salmon, clay jars packed with olives in oil and sealed with wax. One storeroom offered potted hare, haunch of deer in honey, pickled cabbage, pickled beets, pickled onions, pickled eggs, and pickled herring.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon X

They were well provided with salt, Bowen Marsh had told him, but the last of the butter would be gone within a moon's turn.

 

The place of salt and smoke located beneath the Wall:

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As they moved from one vault to another, the wormways seemed to grow colder. Before long Jon could see their breath frosting in the lantern light. "We're beneath the Wall."

"And soon inside it," said Marsh. "The meat won't spoil in the cold. For long storage, it's better than salting."

 

I don't see a scenario for Bran where he is reborn amidst salt tears and smoke to wake dragons out of stone unless he wakes Jon from 'stone' in some fashion. 

Another slight variation on the prophecie(s):
 

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger."

 

I'd say the language used to describe the prophecy continues to mislead.  Dany does appear to be the one born amidst salt tears and smoke to wake dragons from stone in the aftermath of MMD's ritual:

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo's copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.

"… want to wake the dragon …"

 

The child in her womb is consumed by fire and Dany's tears steam off her face when they touch her skin.

I would argue that Dany is reborn amidst salt tears and smoke.  The same conditions exist for Jon.
 

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

 

Whether the cold is the killing cold or not is another question since presumably Jon is protected by the Wall.  There also seems to be a pre-condition that the chosen one is born in a place of salt and smoke and then reborn amidst salt tears and smoke.

I wonder about the enigmatic Borroq who takes up a place in the lichyard by the crypts as if waiting to receive a body.
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

"You'd best go on. We are about to close the gate."

"You do that," Borroq said. "You close it good and tight. They're coming, crow." He smiled as ugly a smile as Jon had ever seen and made his way to the gate. The boar stalked after him. The falling snow covered up their tracks behind them.

 

On first reading, it seems that Borroq is warning about a threat beyond the Wall; but I think he has knowledge of the threat to Jon.  In other words, the assassins are coming.

 

[Black Crow]

13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

There is the salt and smoke prophecy:
 

I think that particular prophecy needs some care and once again question whether Azor Ahai [reborn amidst smoke and salt] and the Prince that was Promised really are one and the same, or whether one [the Prince] is to dish the other.

Smoke and salt need a bit of twisting to fit Jon as Azor Ahai, especially when we already do have Danaerys the Dragonlord, born on the smoking island in the salt sea and currently possessed of three large dragons woken from stone. Conversely, although Bran isn't registering much in the way of smoke and salt, he is repeatedly referred to as a prince, and is the winged wolf awakened from stone chains.

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Black Crow said:

I think that particular prophecy needs some care and once again question whether Azor Ahai [reborn amidst smoke and salt] and the Prince that was Promised really are one and the same, or whether one [the Prince] is to dish the other.

Smoke and salt need a bit of twisting to fit Jon as Azor Ahai, especially when we already do have Danaerys the Dragonlord, born on the smoking island in the salt sea and currently possessed of three large dragons woken from stone. Conversely, although Bran isn't registering much in the way of smoke and salt, he is repeatedly referred to as a prince, and is the winged wolf awakened from stone chains.

Yes, I suppose it depends on whether Jon is the ice dragon; someone who can draw from the power of the Wall as Mel suggest.  It could be said that Jon is reborn in a place of smoke and salt, as well as amidst salt tears and smoking blood.  Bran has already begun the waking process with Jon when he appears as the weirBran to touch Jon's third eye.