Black Crow

Heresy 200 The bicentennial edition

451 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

So far as we know the red priests aren't skinchangers but they certainly raise the dead and use glamours which appear to require a part of the soul.

As to fire generally, the direwolf-Stark link appears to be mirrored by the Targaryen-dragon one

I disagree, from what we have heard about ancient targs they trained their dragons like how we train dogs for example. Even Dany can t give orders to the dragons, not even drogo which she is more connected while either bran or jon can have their wolves do what they ask them.

Then we have seen red priests raising the dead but turn them back into living creatures when the ww simply control their bodies. It is completly diferent... with the ww the soul doesn t retrun to the body of the target.

And you have danny's ability to resist heat which isn t mirrored by any wildling skinchanger we have seen so far,  however here I am actually undecided if the power of warging can decrease the body temperature because the ww are basically super mega skinchangers and are extremelly cold, maybe as your power develops your temperature falls...

AH! There is also jon bursts of super strenght which migh also be magical. However here I have no idea if it is related to his warg abilities (ww are suposed to be faster and stronger and they are wargs) or his targaryien heritage ( the "wake the dragon" might actually refer to some berserk ability targaryens used to have...

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4 hours ago, JNR said:

I see in the last thread Professor Cecily wrote:

This is something I agree with Feather about, so I'm going to explain why.

First, we have to take a look at Aemon's mind.  As we all know, he firmly believes Dany is the Prince that was Promised, even though "prince" has a male ring to it, and Dany is definitely not -- even in Heresy -- male.

So he needs to explain this apparent contradiction to himself, and this is how he does it.  He begins by acknowledging the problem:

Simple enough.  Then to justify his position he says this:

What translation?  Well, though he doesn't spell this out, it appears the prophecy that discusses tPtwP was not, originally, in Common.  We don't know the original language of the prophecy (though many fans are sure it was Valyrian).  We also don't know how many times it was translated before it was rendered in Common.

Then he says:

OK, what has this stuff about dragons got to do with princes or princesses?   What's the connection?  Because clearly there must be a connection in Aemon's mind or he wouldn't have brought this up.  

IMO this means... though again, Aemon doesn't spell this out... that the original language of the prophecy uses the term dragon.  Not prince.  It apparently says something roughly like this:

And because this blah blah blah stuff sounded like human behavior, this was translated into something like:

...because, of course, the translators were sexist people who thought powerful humans (lords) were always men.

That was, in Aemon's mind, the "error creeping in through the translation."  Aemon also knows from Barth that dragons can change their sex -- so the dragon that was promised might be either male or female (like Dany).  So this is why he says:

This is also why the Targs, reading this prophecy about the dragon prince that was promised, became very interested: they are dragon princes.  They have been ever since Aegon I.   And the blah blah blah is apparently very important stuff.

One last point.  Fans sometimes think the above means the original language of the prophecy has gendered nouns, like German ("das Boot").  Maybe, but if so, that's not the idea Aemon is getting at, IMO.  He is talking about the connection between dragons and princes and how translation errors led from the one to the other.

An interesting explanation and thanks for posting!

I understand that the terms princess/princess are also genderless.Also 'the dragon that was promised'  refers to a Targ prince/princess- for which that  incestuous union between Rhaella and her brother Aerys was enforced. 

Anyway, may  disagreements always be so courteous!

This community is a precious mosaic of many opinions and POVs. I never enter the site without learning something new!

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3 hours ago, divica said:

Ok I might be influenced by the show here, but the faceless man don thave their spirit enter another body. To me it sounds almost the inverse of skinchanging as the faceless absorb the bodies without spirits and can assume their form.

In regards to R'hollor, when you say that there is evidence that the red priests have the same powers of greenseers are you refering to having visions through fire? because we have seen the red priests being able to do a wide sort of magic from ilusions, shadows or strange healings and greenseers don't have that sort of powers.

 

If you want to find a common origin for all these powers it can't be the ability to skinchange, at present the best I can think is the ability to manipulate your spirit (soul). Then peopel with diferent training can use their spirit to do diferent things...

To clarify,i am not saying the Faceless man actually mingle their spirits with the ones they take Arya of course is the exception to the rule.Absorbing the body and taking on the physical likeness  of said person is just another way of saying they skinchanged the individual.Its just semantics.

Also, and to clarify i am saying the Red Priests rituals are being hijacked by greenseers. They are tapping into their powers.Hence the similarity of seeing the skeletal one eyed man across three different faiths.The powers they are using aren't their own.

1. Red Priest see through fire/Bloodraven and Bran see through the trees.

2. Illusions Theon seeing the WF Heart tree's face morph into Bran's.

3. Strange healings?????? I am at a loss as to what that is. What strange healings?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Prof. Cecily said:

An interesting explanation and thanks for posting!

I understand that the terms princess/princess are also genderless.Also 'the dragon that was promised'  refers to a Targ prince/princess- for which that  incestuous union between Rhaella and her brother Aerys was enforced. 

Anyway, may  disagreements always be so courteous!

This community is a precious mosaic of many opinions and POVs. I never enter the site without learning something new!

Or someone with Targ blood.They don't necessarily have to be Targ.

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Posted (edited)

26 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

To clarify,i am not saying the Faceless man actually mingle their spirits with the ones they take Arya of course is the exception to the rule.Absorbing the body and taking on the physical likeness  of said person is just another way of saying they skinchanged the individual.Its just semantics.

Also, and to clarify i am saying the Red Priests rituals are being hijacked by greenseers. They are tapping into their powers.Hence the similarity of seeing the skeletal one eyed man across three different faiths.The powers they are using aren't their own.

1. Red Priest see through fire/Bloodraven and Bran see through the trees.

2. Illusions Theon seeing the WF Heart tree's face morph into Bran's.

3. Strange healings?????? I am at a loss as to what that is. What strange healings?

 

 

Oh... They skincange, but it completly diferent from the northerns... with the northerns it is a matter of bonding/dominating the spirit of another creature. With the faceless men they just focus on the flesh and their spirit doesn t leave their bodies. those 2 steps make all the diference! Makes it 2 complete diferent magics.

 

Then, we have no proof that the faces in the trees don´t actually morph! The people looking at the tree simply don t believe it does because they don t believe it is possible! Otherwise it would be weird for theon to imagine bran...

I don t understand what you mean by the red priest rituals being hijacked. From what I remember at most mel uses chemicals in her flames to enhance her visions and BR/bran use the trees. If you said that the red pries could hijack the weirwoodnet I would think it is possible and interesting. Use the flames to bend the whatever in the trees sound good.

By strange healing I mean victarions black hand. And you can add jon spurts of super strenght to the magical abitlities.

Edited by divica

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Posted (edited)

On Invalid Date at 1:19 AM, Black Crow said:

I don't really think so. Obviously somebody has to do the deed, but the maesters don't include women, wise or not - unless you count Sarella who is in disguise.

It's an interesting idea.  Perhaps the ancient First Men culture mirrored the Dothraki culture.  The men were the warriors, hunters, plunderers, while the women were the healers, shaman, and priests.  They would be the ones who would make the sacrifice to the Weirwoods.

Do we know if the Maesters came about with the Andals?  It would make a certain amount of sense, since they are referred to as "knights of the mind" and their order excludes women.  Perhaps the Andal influence made the First Men set aside the Maegi for Maesters.  

But I don't really see the Maester as "saviors" of humankind.  After all, the First Men weren't in danger of dying off from their sacrifices.  But losing the sacrifices probably also severed the First Men's ties to the Weirwoods and the Children.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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1 hour ago, divica said:

Oh... They skincange, but it completly diferent from the northerns... with the northerns it is a matter of bonding/dominating the spirit of another creature. With the faceless men they just focus on the flesh and their spirit doesn t leave their bodies. those 2 steps make all the diference! Makes it 2 complete diferent magics.

 

Then, we have no proof that the faces in the trees don´t actually morph! The people looking at the tree simply don t believe it does because they don t believe it is possible! Otherwise it would be weird for theon to imagine bran...

I don t understand what you mean by the red priest rituals being hijacked. From what I remember at most mel uses chemicals in her flames to enhance her visions and BR/bran use the trees. If you said that the red pries could hijack the weirwoodnet I would think it is possible and interesting. Use the flames to bend the whatever in the trees sound good.

By strange healing I mean victarions black hand. And you can add jon spurts of super strenght to the magical abitlities.

I will answer you more  in a bit but have a look at these two threads

No One : The Trickster gods of asoiaf

Greenseers are the instruments of the Many Faced God   By @Maester Sam

1.Fact is they do skinchange.....The concept is the same

2.You will see the quotes from Theon in the essay where he sees Jon in the WF tree.

Mel uses powders to do many things,However,i missed using it to see.From her chapter she didn't seem to need powders for that.

3. "A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly."

Victarian is basically dead

4. Jon's strength has nothing to do with Mel. His strength predated him meeting Mel.

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, JNR said:

I see in the last thread Professor Cecily wrote:

This is something I agree with Feather about, so I'm going to explain why.

First, we have to take a look at Aemon's mind.  As we all know, he firmly believes Dany is the Prince that was Promised, even though "prince" has a male ring to it, and Dany is definitely not -- even in Heresy -- male.

So he needs to explain this apparent contradiction to himself, and this is how he does it.  He begins by acknowledging the problem:

Simple enough.  Then to justify his position he says this:

What translation?  Well, though he doesn't spell this out, it appears the prophecy that discusses tPtwP was not, originally, in Common.  We don't know the original language of the prophecy (though many fans are sure it was Valyrian).  We also don't know how many times it was translated before it was rendered in Common.

Then he says:

OK, what has this stuff about dragons got to do with princes or princesses?   What's the connection?  Because clearly there must be a connection in Aemon's mind or he wouldn't have brought this up.  

IMO this means... though again, Aemon doesn't spell this out... that the original language of the prophecy uses the term dragon.  Not prince.  It apparently says something roughly like this:

And because this blah blah blah stuff sounded like human behavior, this was translated into something like:

...because, of course, the translators were sexist people who thought powerful humans (lords) were always men.

That was, in Aemon's mind, the "error creeping in through the translation."  Aemon also knows from Barth that dragons can change their sex -- so the dragon that was promised might be either male or female (like Dany).  So this is why he says:

This is also why the Targs, reading this prophecy about the dragon prince that was promised, became very interested: they are dragon princes.  They have been ever since Aegon I.   And the blah blah blah is apparently very important stuff.

One last point.  Fans sometimes think the above means the original language of the prophecy has gendered nouns, like German ("das Boot").  Maybe, but if so, that's not the idea Aemon is getting at, IMO.  He is talking about the connection between dragons and princes and how translation errors led from the one to the other.

I think this is over complicating things a bit.  After all why would princes be confused for dragons in a translation.  I think the confusion he refers to is very simple.  They translated the prophecy from the original language to be the Prince that Was Promised.  Working on this idea, they were certain that a male had to be the one to fulfill the role.  Thus Aemon is kicking himself for ignoring the females that could have been eligible to fulfill this role.  

As for the original language, my initial thought was that it was Rhoynish, because their highest soveigrn was a prince, and it would make sense that they would be in need for a savior considering their losing battles with the Targaryens.  But it occurred to me that the "language" that would cause the most difficulty in translation would be the runes of the First Men.  

If the Prince that was Promised was supposed to be a dragon with a human consciousness (hence Aemon's strange segue to Septon Barthl's discussion of dragon gender) it might make sense that the First Men who were familiar with wargs and the transfer of consciousness would have  come up with this prophecy.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I will answer you more  in a bit but have a look at these two threads

No One : The Trickster gods of asoiaf

Greenseers are the instruments of the Many Faced God   By @Maester Sam

1.Fact is they do skinchange.....The concept is the same

2.You will see the quotes from Theon in the essay where he sees Jon in the WF tree.

Mel uses powders to do many things,However,i missed using it to see.From her chapter she didn't seem to need powders for that.

3. "A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly."

Victarian is basically dead

4. Jon's strength has nothing to do with Mel. His strength predated him meeting Mel.

There were a some interesting facts like greenseers and faceless having a similar role in their religion and that the greenseers answer prayers instead of the old gods (had never thought of it). However there are some things pretty forced and kind of untrue. The faceless deliver death for a payment... it doesn t really sound like a religion. And the "no one" paralelism is just forced and don t even mean the same thing. For the greenseers it was used when they wanted to keep a secret and the faceless to express the are an individual anymore... not related at all!

 

You can say they skinchange, but the magic used is completly diferent. You can t tell me you see a semblance between sending your spirit out of your body and interact with other creature's spirit with absorbing someone's body...

 

I didn t see those theon quotes seeing jon in the trees.

 

there isn t any prof victarion is dead at the moment. Besides we just had a pov from him and he was still himself and not a marionette.

 

I didn t say it was related to mel. just that it was yet another form of magic (this one I can accept that might be related to warging because of the ww but it can be because he is a targ...)

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3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I

Spoiler

 

think this is over complicating things a bit.  After all why would princes be confused for dragons in a translation.  I think the confusion he refers to is very simple.  They translated the prophecy from the original language to be the Prince that Was Promised.  Working on this idea, they were certain that a male had to be the one to fulfill the role.  Thus Aemon is kicking himself for ignoring the females that could have been eligible to fulfill this role.  

As for the original language, my initial thought was that it was Rhoynish, because their highest soveigrn was a prince, and it would make sense that they would be in need for a savior considering their losing battles with the Targaryens.  But it occurred to me that the "language" that would cause the most difficulty in translation would be the runes of the First Men.  

 

If the Prince that was Promised was supposed to be a dragon with a human consciousness (hence Aemon's strange segue to Septon Barthl's discussion of dragon gender) it might make sense that the First Men who were familiar with wargs and the transfer of consciousness would have  come up with this prophecy.

Ah, now that's an interesting thought!

I'd assumed that segue was to underline the lack of importance of the gender of the prince/princess. It seemed much in line with what I understand to be GRRM's defense of feminist values.

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5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's an interesting idea.  Perhaps the ancient First Men culture mirrored the Dothraki culture.  The men were the warriors, hunters, plunderers, while the women were the healers, shaken, and priests.  They would be the ones who would make the sacrifice to the Weirwoods.

Do we know if the Maesters came about with the Andals?  It would make a certain amount of sense, since they are referred to as "knights of the mind" and their order excludes women.  Perhaps the Andal influence made the First Men set aside the Maegi for Maesters.  

But I don't really see the Maester as "saviors" of humankind.  After all, the First Men weren't in danger of dying off from their sacrifices.  But losing the sacrifices probably also severed the First Men's ties to the Weirwoods and the Children.

As to the first, I'd also add a twist in questioning what was really going on at Craster's. We've discussed before whether it may actually have been driven by at least some of the women; whether there might be any significance to Craster's mother coming from Whitetree, and then of course we have the white lady who led the Nights King astray and latterly the mysterious Val.

As to the Maesters and the Andals I don't know of any textual connection and on the contrary there seems to be a rivalry or at least a clear distinction between the maesters and the septons

As to the last, I wouldn't say "saviours", but rather defenders. They certainly appear bent on protecting mankind from magicks, whether of ice or fire

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, divica said:

I disagree, from what we have heard about ancient targs they trained their dragons like how we train dogs for example. Even Dany can t give orders to the dragons, not even drogo which she is more connected while either bran or jon can have their wolves do what they ask them.

Then we have seen red priests raising the dead but turn them back into living creatures when the ww simply control their bodies. It is completly diferent... with the ww the soul doesn t retrun to the body of the target.

And you have danny's ability to resist heat which isn t mirrored by any wildling skinchanger we have seen so far,  however here I am actually undecided if the power of warging can decrease the body temperature because the ww are basically super mega skinchangers and are extremelly cold, maybe as your power develops your temperature falls...

AH! There is also jon bursts of super strenght which migh also be magical. However here I have no idea if it is related to his warg abilities (ww are suposed to be faster and stronger and they are wargs) or his targaryien heritage ( the "wake the dragon" might actually refer to some berserk ability targaryens used to have...

As to the first - we very clearly see the link between Danaerys the Dragonlord and her pets though its very much up in the air as to who is really controlling who and only those with blood of the dragon have that connection.

The red priests raise the dead, but as we see in Beric Dondarion's deterioration its questionable whether they are truly living, and the same goes for Victarion who is certainly not healed, while neither Mel nor Moqorro appear to be truly human any more and are certainly hiding behind a glamour

As to Jon's beserk rages, the best we've come up with over the years is that Ghost is warging him at the time - which is why he's oblivious to what's happening.

Edited by Black Crow

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The wiki describes the different buildings at the Citadel:

Scribe's Hearth

Just inside the gates of the Citadel lies the Scribe's Hearth. Here, the citizens of Oldtown come to hire scribes, usually acolytes, to write and read letters for them. The scribes wait in open stalls for their custom. Other stalls situated at the Scribe's Hearth include those where books are bought and sold. Others offer maps]

Weeping Dock

From this dock one can get a boat for a short voyage to the Bloody Isle. (Does anybody have any insight as to what's on the Bloody Isle?)

Seneschal's Court

Outside the Seneschal's Court lies where acolytes and novices are punished for minor crimes, such as petty thievery. Inside the doors is a hall with a stone floor and high, arched windows. At the far end of the hall there is a raised dais where a gatekeeper greets all those who wish to make an appointment to see the Seneschal.

Isle of Ravens

The Isle of Ravens is linked to the eastern bank of the Honeywine by a weathered wooden drawbridge. On the island is located the Ravenry, the oldest building of the Citadel. The walls of the Ravenry are covered in moss and vines and within its yard sits a weirwood tree on which the ravens like to perch. The white raven rookery is located in the west tower. (So not only do the maesters study magic and try to light a glass candle, they have access to a weirwood tree.)

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Ah, now that's an interesting thought!

I'd assumed that segue was to underline the lack of importance of the gender of the prince/princess. It seemed much in line with what I understand to be GRRM's defense of feminist values.

That could be the explanation, it's just such an odd way to express it.  Now you could chalk it up to Aemon's current mental/physical state at the time.  But another explanation is that he is directly linking TPTWP prophecy to the genetics of dragons.  When he says the "sphinx is the riddle not the riddler", this equally odd statement could also be explained for the same reason.  There are Valyrian sphinxes at the Citadel.  These are statues with the body of a dragon and the head of a human.  (We see them again on Illyrio and Tyrion's ride to the Rhoyne).  The riddle of TPTWP prophecy is how do we get a human consciousness into the body of a dragon.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

That could be the explanation, it's just such an odd way to express it.  Now you could chalk it up to Aemon's current mental/physical state at the time.  But another explanation is that he is directly linking TPTWP prophecy to the genetics of dragons.  When he says the "sphinx is the riddle not the riddler", this equally odd statement could also be explained for the same reason.  There are Valyrian sphinxes at the Citadel.  These are statues with the body of a dragon and the head of a human.  (We see them again on Illyrio and Tyrion's ride to the Rhoyne).  The riddle of TPTWP prophecy is how do we get a human consciousness into the body of a dragon.

This might have something to do with Valyrian worship of dragon gods and the ability to warg dragons in the Targaryen bloodline.  I maintain that R'hllor is such a god with the distinction that the soul of the dragon is a human/dragon second life soul translation.  Melisandre maintains that R'hllor exists in the real world and is male.  I suspect that the great red temple is actually a dragon pit and Dany's wake the dragon dream where she is transformed into a dragon and flies; warging or bonding with R'hllor rather than Drogon.  

R'hllor... R'haegar, R'haella, R'haenys...  I think you pointed this nomenclature at one time.  Something (or someone) else lost in translation?  LOL

Edited by LynnS

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10 hours ago, divica said:

There were a some interesting facts like greenseers and faceless having a similar role in their religion and that the greenseers answer prayers instead of the old gods (had never thought of it). However there are some things pretty forced and kind of untrue. The faceless deliver death for a payment... it doesn t really sound like a religion. And the "no one" paralelism is just forced and don t even mean the same thing. For the greenseers it was used when they wanted to keep a secret and the faceless to express the are an individual anymore... not related at all!

 

You can say they skinchange, but the magic used is completly diferent. You can t tell me you see a semblance between sending your spirit out of your body and interact with other creature's spirit with absorbing someone's body...

 

I didn t see those theon quotes seeing jon in the trees.

 

there isn t any prof victarion is dead at the moment. Besides we just had a pov from him and he was still himself and not a marionette.

 

I didn t say it was related to mel. just that it was yet another form of magic (this one I can accept that might be related to warging because of the ww but it can be because he is a targ...)

I think you are missing concept big time; trying to make things line up to every detail.They don't have to be nor should they be given that the different factions has areas of uniqueness based on what magic they are adept at.But the underlining theme and concept is the same which is the point.

Some of the things you are pointing out i didn't even mention as proof or point of proof so i am not sure why they were brought up.E.g.

Quote

However there are some things pretty forced and kind of untrue. The faceless deliver death for a payment... it doesn t really sound like a religion.

????? Not a point but you are still incorrect about this.The Faceless man is a religion because well its self explanatory but ok

1.They have a god The many faced god

2.They have a central place of worship The House of Black and White.

3. They have worshipers who bring their petitions before him

4.They have disciples who carryout what they believe their god's purpose.

that the prayers in the form of money is received doesn't make them any less a religion.Even some of our own religions receive payment for prayers.

Quote

You can say they skinchange, but the magic used is completly diferent. You can t tell me you see a semblance between sending your spirit out of your body and interact with other creature's spirit with absorbing someone's body...

Dude why are you hung up on if one sends his spirit into another or not? They both wear the forms of others.It doesn't matter HOW they perform it.Force or consensual.It matters that they do.

If i use blood magic to skinchange and you use spirit mingling to accomplish wearing another form it just means we used different means to accomplish the same thing.

Quote

And the "no one" paralelism is just forced and don t even mean the same thing. For the greenseers it was used when they wanted to keep a secret and the faceless to express the are an individual anymore... not related at all!

Again you are missing the nuanced and overt.It is about fluid identity.Not having a fixed one,but one that is ever changing for the purpose of subterfuge and concealment.

The greenseers as skinchangers can become anything and anyone.Their purpose is to look,to spy to dabble without anyone being the wiser on who they were.

The Faceless man the same thing they can be anyone for the purpose of keeping themselves hidden.It makes for a good assassin.You do see the purpose for that do you? Why you would kill someone with another's face? 

In being the No-ones can be anyone because their identity is not limited to one form.

Quote

 

I didn t see those theon quotes seeing jon in the trees.


 

 

 

That was a typo from me...It was Bran.If you read to quotes it would have been plainly obvious that 'hey she meant Bran' but i will put it for you.

Quote

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. “… Bran,” the tree murmured. They know. The gods know. They saw what I did. And for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Bran’s face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad. Bran’s ghost, he thought, but that was madness. Why should Bran want to haunt him? - ADWD, A Ghost in Winterfell

 

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there isn t any prof victarion is dead at the moment. Besides we just had a pov from him and he was still himself and not a marionette.

 

Quote

A corpse at the prow of a ship, with bright eyes and grey lips, smiling sadly

 

Quote

 

"You saw my death?”

“That, and more.”

“Where? When? Will I die in battle?” His good hand opened and closed. “If you lie to me, I will split your head open like a melon and let the monkeys eat your brains.”

“Your death is with us now, my lord. Give me your hand.”

 

 

Victarian doesn't know it yet but he's dead.He was just changed .Plus him having his own thoughts doesn't exclude him.You heard of Coldhand's. Or Beric Dondarrion right?

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As to the first - we very clearly see the link between Danaerys the Dragonlord and her pets though its very much up in the air as to who is really controlling who and only those with blood of the dragon have that connection.

The red priests raise the dead, but as we see in Beric Dondarion's deterioration its questionable whether they are truly living, and the same goes for Victarion who is certainly not healed, while neither Mel nor Moqorro appear to be truly human any more and are certainly hiding behind a glamour

As to Jon's beserk rages, the best we've come up with over the years is that Ghost is warging him at the time - which is why he's oblivious to what's happening.

Really? He would be aware of that he's never had an issue knowing if its Ghost.

Quote

I didn t say it was related to mel. just that it was yet another form of magic (this one I can accept that might be related to warging because of the ww but it can be because he is a targ...)

Again for what purpose was this brought up anyway?

Or genetics as we have no indication that warging the wolves gave the Stark bunch super human strength. You say Targ i say Baratheon as Targs aren't known for their strength.

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7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As to the first - we very clearly see the link between Danaerys the Dragonlord and her pets though its very much up in the air as to who is really controlling who and only those with blood of the dragon have that connection.

The red priests raise the dead, but as we see in Beric Dondarion's deterioration its questionable whether they are truly living, and the same goes for Victarion who is certainly not healed, while neither Mel nor Moqorro appear to be truly human any more and are certainly hiding behind a glamour

As to Jon's beserk rages, the best we've come up with over the years is that Ghost is warging him at the time - which is why he's oblivious to what's happening.

She has a connection, but a dog owner also has a conection to the dog. There isn t evidence that they have a mental connection and if we take victarion horn into consideration we have evidence that probably the targs don t connect in that way naturally with the dragons.

 

And ghost warging jon? I prefer the idea he can siphon  ghost strenght and with it comes some of the wolf mentality or it is a targ thing because they think of themselves as dragons and the phrase "wake the dragon" can be and indication they used to have a berserk stage when they behave like "dragons" (augmentation of phisical abilities and rage). However you should take into acount that he is only oblivious to what is happening in 1 ocasion and he was hit in the head and thinking about the past... Besides it is unlickly that he wouldn t feel ghost entering him, from what we know the target always knows when he is being warged.

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15 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I think you are missing concept big time; trying to make things line up to every detail.They don't have to be nor should they be given that the different factions has areas of uniqueness based on what magic they are adept at.But the underlining theme and concept is the same which is the point.

Some of the things you are pointing out i didn't even mention as proof or point of proof so i am not sure why they were brought up.E.g.

????? Not a point but you are still incorrect about this.The Faceless man is a religion because well its self explanatory but ok

1.They have a god The many faced god

2.They have a central place of worship The House of Black and White.

3. They have worshipers who bring their petitions before him

4.They have disciples who carryout what they believe their god's purpose.

that the prayers in the form of money is received doesn't make them any less a religion.Even some of our own religions receive payment for prayers.

Dude why are you hung up on if one sends his spirit into another or not? They both wear the forms of others.It doesn't matter HOW they perform it.Force or consensual.It matters that they do.

If i use blood magic to skinchange and you use spirit mingling to accomplish wearing another form it just means we used different means to accomplish the same thing.

Again you are missing the nuanced and overt.It is about fluid identity.Not having a fixed one,but one that is ever changing for the purpose of subterfuge and concealment.

The greenseers as skinchangers can become anything and anyone.Their purpose is to look,to spy to dabble without anyone being the wiser on who they were.

The Faceless man the same thing they can be anyone for the purpose of keeping themselves hidden.It makes for a good assassin.You do see the purpose for that do you? Why you would kill someone with another's face? 

In being the No-ones can be anyone because their identity is not limited to one form.

 

That was a typo from me...It was Bran.If you read to quotes it would have been plainly obvious that 'hey she meant Bran' but i will put it for you.

 

 

 

 

Victarian doesn't know it yet but he's dead.He was just changed .Plus him having his own thoughts doesn't exclude him.You heard of Coldhand's. Or Beric Dondarrion right?

Really? He would be aware of that he's never had an issue knowing if its Ghost.

Again for what purpose was this brought up anyway?

Or genetics as we have no indication that warging the wolves gave the Stark bunch super human strength. You say Targ i say Baratheon as Targs aren't known for their strength.

If Victarion is dead there should be something in the text about him not breathing or being cold as it happens whith cold hands. Honestly I have no idea if it is written anything about those 2 conditions. The other quotes you used about him can just be a literary way of saying is death is certain (like he is a dead man walking) because moqorro is using a scheme to make him die when he uses the horn. If you think about it, the red priests think of danny as her saviur. The one chosen to convert her won t help someone steal her dragons... He will use it to prove his value!

 

I brought it up because it isn t a magic that greenseers have and it exists! That was about when you said greenseers are the base of all magic and I have been guiving exemples of magic that greenseers don t have. So they are just another form of magic instead of its root...

And while we have no indication that warging the wolves gave the Stark bunch super human strength we know that the white walkers are faster and stronger than men and they are suposed to be wargs... I talked about targ because the most accepted theory about jon and could explain the setence " don t wake the dragon" and even prove that there is a bit of dragon inside each targ...

ps. I suposed that if baratheons have magic it would be related to blacksmithing.

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38 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This might have something to do with Valyrian worship of dragon gods and the ability to warg dragons in the Targaryen bloodline.  I maintain that R'hllor is such a god with the distinction that the soul of the dragon is a human/dragon second life soul translation.  Melisandre maintains that R'hllor exists in the real world and is male.  I suspect that the great red temple is actually a dragon pit and Dany's wake the dragon dream where she is transformed into a dragon and flies; warging or bonding with R'hllor rather than Drogon.  

R'hllor... R'haegar, R'haella, R'haenys...  I think you pointed this nomenclature at one time.  Something (or someone) else lost in translation?  LOL

Aren t you overcomplicating with the dragons that transform into humans?

We know that targs consider themselves dragons, so when talking about the prince that was promised it might have just said in the text that a dragon will will be born that... and afterwards used the pronoun he  for "and he will do something". So when translating people refer to tptwp as a male. At the limit, as tptwp is suposed to be a warrior people always thought he would be a man even if the profecy uses the word dragon no one ever thought abut it...

So whoever wrote the profecy might just have wanted to say that the ptwp would be a targ...

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Posted (edited)

11 minutes ago, divica said:

Aren t you overcomplicating with the dragons that transform into humans?

 

No.

Touching on something you've said earlier... dragons are not domesticated animals and neither are direwolves.  They are dangerous and wild.  Dragons are not trained with food reward, but controlled with whips like lions. They are also controlled to some extent through the warg/animal bond, a shared soul in other words.  Varamyr is a good example of how much control a warg has over his animals.  Some are easier to control than others and if the warg bond is broken, they revert to their natural state. 

It's entirely possible that a dragon can bond with a specific valyrian bloodline in the same way that the Starks have a history with direwolves.   What I'm saying is that it's possible and likely that Dany and others of the old valyrian bloodline are able to bond, warg their dragons, share a soul with them and have a second life in the body of their dragon.  Although it would be rare as is the case with skinchangers, wargs and greenseers.

Dragons and direwolves don't transform into humans; but the human soul can be contained within the body of their bonded dragon or direwolf.  I think this is the riddle of the sphinx, the dragon with a human head in other words.  the dragon that has a human consciousness; a dragon god if you like.

Edited by LynnS

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