Heresy 200 The bicentennial edition

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, MaesterSam said:

We have another character who thought he could survive an inferno, and that the sacrifice of burning a city would turn him into a dragon. The reader is led to assume this character is mad, but was he? Or did King Aerys have the same dream as Dany, and Jaime prevented him from "waking the dragon" by killing him before he could burn his offerings?

Yes definately mad, but subject to dragon dreams and transforming into a dragon.  Although, not the 'chosen one' of R'hllor.  It's seems to be a Targ obsession and the origin of the words to 'wake the dragon'.

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A Clash of Kings - Jon I

Aerion the Monstrous?" Jon knew that name. "The Prince Who Thought He Was a Dragon" was one of Old Nan's more gruesome tales. His little brother Bran had loved it.

 

 

[MaesterSam]

On 2017-6-24 at 11:40 AM, Frey family reunion said:

So it really makes perfect sense, that the Prince that was Promised is a line from the Song of Ice and Fire directly dealing with the war for the dawn, sung by the Children and recorded by runes from the First Men.

WOW. Hahaha, what a fool was I who thought myself so wise? Am I the only one who never even considered the possibility that the Song of Ice and Fire is actually a song?? And there is power in songs.... just ask GRRM, who wrote a whole book about the idea of a song - a song called The Armageddon Rag - having the power to bring about Armageddon by triggering its hippie audience to start a civil war. The song essentially induces a trance-like state, allowing the band to lead a hundred thousand people in a march on a nearby city. (This is a slight simplification, and there is a cool twist that I'm leaving out. It's worth reading, but you have to fight yourself through the first half, which is incredibly slow. I will point out that the lead singer was an albino...)

The idea that tens of thousands of people - one could say a whole host - can be controlled by a small group of special individuals singing a particular song is of course very intriguing. A host needing a controller immediately comes to mind, and the question of who the singers are literally answers itself. Or does it? They say they sing the song of Earth, not of Ice and Fire. Rhaegar seems to think the PTWP will sing it ... but regardless of who ends up singing it, I would bet that its purpose is to somehow end the Long Night:

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Lomas Longstrider, in his Wonders Made by Man, recounts meeting descendants of the Rhoynar in the ruins of the festival city of Chroyane who have tales of a darkness that made the Rhoyne dwindle and disappear, her waters frozen as far south as the joining of the Selhoru. According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne’s many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

- The World of Ice and Fire

 

[wolfmaid7]

On 7/1/2017 at 5:35 AM, Black Crow said:

As I've just said, I don't think Val is central enough to the story, but that's not to rule out her playing the white lady to Melisandre's red one.

I don't know if its a matter of central vs purpose.She sure seems to have been at the heart of certain things happening.

1.Bringing Tourmond to Jon.

2.Weird eye color and clothing change.

On 7/1/2017 at 1:54 PM, MaesterSam said:

Ah, it's great to be back. And just in time for Heresy 200!!! Don't mind if I jump right in, as I've been thinking about crows quite a bit myself lately. 

Just in case we missed it, Bran kindly points it out for us: a three-eyed crow should have three eyes. Three. BR is not even close- he has one real eye, and even if we add the "third" eye, that still only makes two. There is even a saying about his number of eyes, with the response always being  "A thousand and one" - which also doesn't add up to three. It seems to me that GRRM is really going out of his way to emphasize that this guy doesn't have three eyes.

On a related note... does BR even refer to using the greensight as opening the third eye? (This is a real question, I can't remember for sure). If he doesn't (in person), then that would also speak against him being the 3EC. Along with his flat-out denial of being a crow, regardless of eye number.

I do think it's interesting how his eye situation parallels Euron somewhat. Here, BR's eye is described as a pool of blood, while Euron's eye is called his blood eye by Aeron. BR only has the one eye, whereas Euron has two but only uses one at a time, keeping the other beneath an eye patch. So they both are "missing" one real eye, but have the third eye open. Euron even calls himself the Crow's Eye. 

And this is where I like to ease myself into the rabbit hole, and wonder which crow's eye Euron thinks he is. Just any random crow? A crow of the Night's Watch? Or the three-eyed crow? (with the last two not necessarily being mutually exclusive)

He is the eye of the crow. The crow. Who are we talking about here? And why would Euron be its eye? He seems to be ok with this, proud of it even, as if it is an honor or an accomplishment to be the Crow's Eye. Presumably, this is a position which helps "the crow" see in some way, quite possibly via the third eye. So "Crow's Eye" could be a title for someone who works for "the crow", using greensight to allow the crow, via the Crow's Eye's third eye, to see virtually everything.  I am tempted to go out on a limb here and suggest that potential Crow's Eyes are marked with red eyes (sometimes just one red eye), and that real greenseers have green eyes (as the name very much implies!! Think about it, why greensight? What is green about it? ). Leaf was rather nonchalant in explaining that those with the gift are marked with green or red eyes, as if the two are interchangeable. But they are not; green marks greenseers, and red is for crow's eyes. 

Now for the real crackpot. If a person can be the crow's eye, then would he likely be the only eye of a one-eyed crow? Probably not, right? So probably an eye of a two-eyed crow. Which begs the question: who is the second eye? BR seems like a great candidate. But now, of course, we have created a "crow" character who is immensely powerful and who would encourage potential Eyes to open their third eye so he could see through them. Which we have of course already witnessed in Bran's dream. But that crow had three eyes...

So presumably there is a third Crow's Eye out there somewhere. The fun question then becomes: Is there an actual Crow character who sees via these three almost-greenseers, or, my preferred option - are the three Eyes together the 3EC? You know, the way the dragon has three heads, the crow has three Eyes..

Ok, that's enough tinfoil for my first post back.... time to keep reading!

 

 

 

I for one don't think BR is the 3eyed raven for several reasons previously discussed.However,I would like to reinforce something I touched upon via a piece of text.

I proposed a while a back that Bran was picked because while he was chosen by BR he was not selected by nature.

I also pointed out that it was to the wolves we must look in this cycle to see who was selected.Imo, The one with green eyes-Shaggy dog(Rickon).The one with red eyes-Ghost(Jon).Per the sign of those with the gift.

I say all this to point out that I believe it is as the children say a mark of those with the gift.

To the second , if we are dealing with an entity or a few people with the gift that make up the 3eyed raven.

I have to say I think we are dealing with communal psychic energy that has been made manifest as the 3eyed Raven.. 

 

On 7/1/2017 at 2:50 PM, MaesterSam said:

Yes, that was a good one! 

I am torn on this one, b/c on the one hand, Mel's powers increase at the Wall, suggesting that this Ice structure amplifies Fire magic - thereby supporting the idea that all magics take power from the same source. However, the Ghost of High Heart tells Thoros that his fire magic will not work around the weirwood stumps, b/c the place still belongs to the old gods. Which, if nothing else, seems to suggest that the Wall is not an "Old Gods" structure (in other words, it probably was not built by, or with the help of, the COTF). Not sure where to take it from there...

We also have a skeletal figure in Stannis, whose skull bones are said to be visible beneath his skin now. He still has two eyes, but that could change at any time. It almost seems as if over-use of magic drains a person, leaving them a hollow shell with a scarecrow-like appearance.

 

Yeah,pretty much what it comes down to is that its all the same magic.Its the individual ways of wielding it that's different.And I think that difference is the manipulation.

Mel opens a fire portal and looks for Srannis and BR is staring back at her through the portal "she" opens.

How then can she be assured that what she is seeing is because if her or because she was allowed to.

I think what confuses the matter is the labels.Who or what are the Old gods? in  truth all they are,are remarkable people and I think we can't lose sight of that. We are dealing with people who can skinchange nature,but they are still people.

I think across the board the reocurrance of the visual of this figure is the author's way of saying its remarkable people playing at being gods.And that there's no difference except what they want individual factors to see.But in the end R'hollor is the Old gods and the Old gods is/are whoever is sitting in a weir wood.

Its not going to go down well if people find out when they said their deepest darkest secret before a weir wood a 10 yr old was on the other end at one point.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I don't know if its a matter of central vs purpose.She sure seems to have been at the heart of certain things happening.

1.Bringing Tourmond to Jon.

2.Weird eye color and clothing change.

 

Val may well turn out to be an agent of influence but that aint the same as being one of the principals.

[JNR]

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

She sure seems to have been at the heart of certain things happening.

1.Bringing Tourmond to Jon.

2.Weird eye color and clothing change.

3. Inspiring Jon's compass pointer to point straight at her.  

While it may seem to the casual reader that it really points at something on the far side of her, this is clearly not the case because he can walk in a circle around her, and yet his pointer always points in the same direction.

[wolfmaid7]

14 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Val may well turn out to be an agent of influence but that aint the same as being one of the principals.

Does one have to be one of the principals to be QOW?And that's if there is even going to be such a prevent figure in this series .

Mel is certainly not a principal character yet she though hot has revised the Queen of night role with Stannis.

The QON figure was(even though she may have been influencing him) the woman behind the man.

No more than Mel with Stannis.Val was trying to set herself up as the woman beside Jon.Mel was trying to do the same.

This is not to say that Sansa can't be such a figure on her own.But I see that exclusive of Jon.

I know what the letter said and the story then could have gone that way with Arya.

But in this story even though Sansa and Jon aren't close the idea of them being siblings is to engrained in them. I don't see anything romantic having time to develop on that front.

13 hours ago, JNR said:

3. Inspiring Jon's compass pointer to point straight at her.  

While it may seem to the casual reader that it really points at something on the far side of her, this is clearly not the case because he can walk in a circle around her, and yet his pointer always points in the same direction.

That seems to be the case.And we also have to look at where these characters are in the story in relation to each other.Sure, some of them may be reunited at some point.Ultimately,they have their parts to play.

GRRM didn't just pull Val out the hat to be insignificant to Jon.She'll possibly give Jon the son to hold in his arms before he sits his icy throne beneath some hill/The black gate.

 

[Frey family reunion]

17 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I don't know if its a matter of central vs purpose.She sure seems to have been at the heart of certain things happening.

1.Bringing Tourmond to Jon.

2.Weird eye color and clothing change.

 

 

14 hours ago, JNR said:

3. Inspiring Jon's compass pointer to point straight at her.  

While it may seem to the casual reader that it really points at something on the far side of her, this is clearly not the case because he can walk in a circle around her, and yet his pointer always points in the same direction.

Yea, I agree.  In a lot of ways, she reminds me a bit of Qyburn.  Two characters who's eyes change colors mysteriously and have a weird Svengali affect on other characters.  Val with Jon and Qyburn with Cersei.  

[LynnS]

18 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

 

Yea, I agree.  In a lot of ways, she reminds me a bit of Qyburn.  Two characters who's eyes change colors mysteriously and have a weird Svengali affect on other characters.  Val with Jon and Qyburn with Cersei.  

Qyburn's eyes change colors?  Where does that happen?

[Frey family reunion]

24 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Qyburn's eyes change colors?  Where does that happen?

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Qyburn did not look a monster, Jaime thought. He was spare and soft-spoken, with warm brown eyes.

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“His face was vaguely familiar, though Cersei could not place him. Old, but not so old as Pycelle. This one has some strength in him still. He was tall, though slightly stooped, with crinkles around his bold blue eyes. His throat is naked. “You wear no maester’s chain.”

“It was taken from me. My name is Qyburn, if it please Your Grace. I treated your brother’s hand.”

 

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

“His face was vaguely familiar, though Cersei could not place him. Old, but not so old as Pycelle. This one has some strength in him still. He was tall, though slightly stooped, with crinkles around his bold blue eyes.

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Barristan is tall and has blue eyes which some consider to be sad.^[4][5] He is an older man, with white hair and lined features. Some consider him handsome, at least for his age. Despite his advanced age, he looks strong and graceful and every bit the skilled knight he was in his youth. Like other members of the Kingsguard, his armor, cloak, and shield are all in white. His enameled scales have silver chasings and clasps

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A Feast for Crows - Cersei IV

"I have informers sniffing after the Imp everywhere, Your Grace," said Qyburn. He had garbed himself in something very like maester's robes, but white instead of grey, immaculate as the cloaks of the Kingsguard. Whorls of gold decorated his hem, sleeves, and stiff high collar, and a golden sash was tied about his waist. "Oldtown, Gulltown, Dorne, even the Free Cities. Wheresoever he might run, my whisperers will find him."

 

[SFDanny]

Congratulations on the 200th thread @Black Crow, and all the regulars here. My apologies for not having read them all!

[Black Crow]

1 minute ago, SFDanny said:

Congratulations on the 200th thread @Black Crow, and all the regulars here. My apologies for not having read them all!

Thank you - and please feel free to at least dip in occasionally

[SFDanny]

Just now, Black Crow said:

Thank you - and please feel free to at least dip in occasionally

I do, at least to read posts from you and some of the others here. Time is my major problem in participating more than the very little I have in these threads. Please don't take a lack of posting as a lack of respect for the work and contributions you make. We may disagree on many things, BC, but the respect for what you have done here is real.

[wolfmaid7]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

 

Was this one of those errors GRRM made? Nevertheless Cersie and Jamie seemed to take something different from their encounters with him.

For Jamie he was soft-spoken with warm brown eyes.To Cersie he was strong with bold blue eyes.

It could be be Cersie and Jamie were projecting or Qyburn himself could have been.

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Does one have to be one of the principals to be QOW?And that's if there is even going to be such a prevent figure in this series .

Mel is certainly not a principal character yet she though hot has revised the Queen of night role with Stannis.

The QON figure was(even though she may have been influencing him) the woman behind the man.

No more than Mel with Stannis.Val was trying to set herself up as the woman beside Jon.Mel was trying to do the same.

This is not to say that Sansa can't be such a figure on her own.But I see that exclusive of Jon.

I know what the letter said and the story then could have gone that way with Arya.

But in this story even though Sansa and Jon aren't close the idea of them being siblings is to engrained in them. I don't see anything romantic having time to develop on that front.

That seems to be the case.And we also have to look at where these characters are in the story in relation to each other.Sure, some of them may be reunited at some point.Ultimately,they have their parts to play.

GRRM didn't just pull Val out the hat to be insignificant to Jon.She'll possibly give Jon the son to hold in his arms before he sits his icy throne beneath some hill/The black gate.

 

I lean towards thinking Jon is dead and that it's necessary for him to be dead in order to become the Nights King and lead the army of the dead. In Old Nan's story the Lord Commander gave the Other is seed, which likely is referring to the sacrifice of a child, so I don't think Jon will ever father children.

[Black Crow]

34 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I lean towards thinking Jon is dead and that it's necessary for him to be dead in order to become the Nights King and lead the army of the dead. In Old Nan's story the Lord Commander gave the Other is seed, which likely is referring to the sacrifice of a child, so I don't think Jon will ever father children.

I'm inclined to go with this. We're always being told how magic has its consequences and one of the things I dislike about the mummers' version is the casual nature of resurrection and seeming lack of consequences that has followed.

Jon's fate is thus far ambiguous; on the one hand he looks a little bit dead, but GRRM has hinted he may not be.

We are therefore faced with two outcomes. Either he's damaged, but alive and will live to be Lord of Winterfell, or he's dead but will be resurrected to fulfill some terrible destiny.

[Brad Stark]

I've always seen the story as being about Jon, tpwwp, the hero prophesied to save the world in the most cliche way - except the twist is the good guys killed him first.  So The Nights King is about to destroy everything while unJon runs around making a bigger mess of things.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Was this one of those errors GRRM made? Nevertheless Cersie and Jamie seemed to take something different from their encounters with him.

For Jamie he was soft-spoken with warm brown eyes.To Cersie he was strong with bold blue eyes.

It could be be Cersie and Jamie were projecting or Qyburn himself could have been.

"Blue as the eyes of death" comes to mind.  Qyburn seems to assess the character of Jaime and Cersei and present an image that will appeal to each of them as though reading their minds, to quote Cersei.  Svengali is not far of the mark.  With Jaime he must presents himself as humble and non-threatening; with Cersei, he borrows from the appearance of Barristan the Bold to get inside her psyche.  How much of it is suggestion and mummery.  What is the significance of blue-eyed Val dressed in white and blue-eyed Qyburn dressed in white?

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, LynnS said:

"Blue as the eyes of death" comes to mind.  Qyburn seems to assess the character of Jaime and Cersei and present an image that will appeal to each of them as though reading their minds, to quote Cersei.  Svengali is not far of the mark.  With Jaime he must presents himself as humble and non-threatening; with Cersei, he borrows from the appearance of Barristan the Bold to get inside her psyche.  How much of it is suggestion and mummery.  What is the significance of blue-eyed Val dressed in white and blue-eyed Qyburn dressed in white?

 

 

The parallels to Barristan are very interesting, I never picked up on that before.  I'm curious if there are any clues in the text as to a time or place where Qyburn would have met up with Barristan.  Of course Barristan was perhaps the most famous knight in the land, and Qyburn could have viewed him in any of the tourneys around Oldtown.  We also have another parallel, Qyburn was expelled from the Citadel and Barristan was expelled from the Kingsguard.  If this was a conscious decision by Qyburn to alter his appearance to more closely resemble Barristan, it is an interesting choice.  The only time I can recall Cersei speaking about Barristan was to Tyrion :

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"His grace has a unique way of winning the hearts of his subjects," Tyrion said with a crooked smile.  "Was it Joffrey's wish to dismiss Ser Barristan Selmy from his Kingsguard too?"

Cersei sighed.  "Joff wanted someone to blame for Robert's death.  Varys suggested Ser Barristan.  Why not?  It gave Jaime command of the Kingsguard and a seat on the small council, and allowed Joff to throw a bone to his dog.  He is very fond of Sandor Clegane.  We were prepared to offer Selmy some land and a towerhouse, more than the useless old fool deserved."

"I hear that useless old fool slew two of Slynt's gold cloaks when they tried to seize him at the Mud Gate."

His sister looked very unhappy.  "Janos should have sent more men.  He is not as competent as might be wished."

"Sir Barristan was the Lord Commander of Robert Baratheon's Kingsguard," Tyrion reminded her pointedly.  "He and Jaime are the only survivors of Aerys Targaryen's seven.  The smallfolk talk of him in the same way they talk of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight.  What do you imagine they'll think when they see Barristan the Bold riding beside Robb Stark or Stannis Baratheon?

Cersei glanced away.  "I had not considered that."

"Father did."  said Tyrion.  "That is why he sent me.  To put an end to these follies and bring your son to heel."

 

[wolfmaid7]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I lean towards thinking Jon is dead and that it's necessary for him to be dead in order to become the Nights King and lead the army of the dead. In Old Nan's story the Lord Commander gave the Other is seed, which likely is referring to the sacrifice of a child, so I don't think Jon will ever father children.

I believe Jon will wrest control of the army of the dead,but I don't think he needs to be dead to do it.Him dying and being brought back is one of those things I don't buy.I am of the school of thought that he will be in grave condition,requiring healing not resurrection.

We don't know what powers the NK had or didn't have let alone raising the dead.He could have been a Skinchanger or he could have just been like Stannis.Who also gave his seed to a strange woman.What I am trying to say is I don't see him being NK adverse to him fathering a son( which is just a possibility) not a theory.If he is supposedly going to get in one of his "not sister's" or anyone's knickers in the end there must be a point to that.

48 minutes ago, LynnS said:

"Blue as the eyes of death" comes to mind.  Qyburn seems to assess the character of Jaime and Cersei and present an image that will appeal to each of them as though reading their minds, to quote Cersei.  Svengali is not far of the mark.  With Jaime he must presents himself as humble and non-threatening; with Cersei, he borrows from the appearance of Barristan the Bold to get inside her psyche.  How much of it is suggestion and mummery.  What is the significance of blue-eyed Val dressed in white and blue-eyed Qyburn dressed in white?

 

 

This could work.