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King's Landing: Why does it suck so much?


Lord Vance II

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The fact that the city was founded hundreds if not thousands of years after the other main ports in Westeros indicates that it probably does not have great "location fundamentals" (to use a technical term). 

Its relative success (i.e. size) would then be due entirely to the fact that it was chosen as the capital of Westeros combined with successive economies of scale locking it in as an important trade center. But the fact that it did not arise naturally as an important settlement before is very telling.

Add this to the fact that large cities, including modern ones,  tend to have big pockets of poverty for a variety of reasons and you have a pretty complete explanation of why it "sucks" so muc.

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King's Landing has precisely two neighbourhoods: the Red Keep and Flea Bottom.

The total lack of any merchants or industry just shows how little The George cares about verisimilitude. He's too busy making a point about how much this society sucks. 

Good call on the Washington DC parallel! 

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3 minutes ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

King's Landing has precisely two neighbourhoods: the Red Keep and Flea Bottom.

The total lack of any merchants or industry just shows how little The George cares about verisimilitude. He's too busy making a point about how much this society sucks. 

Good call on the Washington DC parallel! 

What?  He's pretty clear that there are plenty of merchants and artisans.  The Antler Men are all middle-class, but lowborn, citizens.  Obviously there is a thriving armory/blacksmithing district, because Ned visits a whole bunch of them.  Cersei thinks about how Margaery gives custom to a ton of seamstresses in the city at one point.

GRRM hasn't fleshed it out any more than that for a bunch of reasons.  One, he isn't doing an ethnographic or socioeconomic study of his fictional city.  He's telling a story; we can infer that King's Landing has all the component parts of a large medieval city because that's the setting.  For storytelling purposes, all that matters is there are a couple very nice districts (Red Keep, the Great Sept), some ruined areas (the Dragonpit) and some shitty areas (Flea Bottom).  Why explore way more of the city when it isn't necessary?  Moreover, it gets to a larger theme of the story, which is that most of the nobility of the Seven Kingdoms has forgotten their social obligations to their lessers; lords and royals feast and party while their smallfolk starve.  That is why the contrast between Flea Bottom and the Red Keep is there,a nd to further explore the city wouldn't add to that narrative.

And for what it's worth, many cities throughout history have been the same.  Ancient Rome was gorgeous if you were on one of the hilltops, where the mansions and temples were, and a disgusting, dangerous, malarial swamp if you lived in the valleys in between.

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38 minutes ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

King's Landing has precisely two neighbourhoods: the Red Keep and Flea Bottom.

The total lack of any merchants or industry just shows how little The George cares about verisimilitude. He's too busy making a point about how much this society sucks. 

Good call on the Washington DC parallel! 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/King's_Landing#Layout

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43 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

One big think I gleaned from that map (which I referenced a ton when pondering my issues with KL) is that the port seems terrible. They just have piers sticking out into the Blackwater Rush without so much as a slight alcove? I'm pretty sure that's the exact opposite of what you want in a major port. I know it's not canon and I'm talking out of my ass about optimal port locations, but it stuck out to me as weird. 

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20 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

That pretty much ignores the canon description of White Harbor and Oldtown. KL is obviously a trash heap. I don't believe we know about Gulltown or Lannisport, though I'd imagine Lannisport is similar to Oldtown.

Look, it's canon!
 

In White Habour and Old Town we so far only visited the wealthy parts of the city, while we know about the slums in King's Landing. Different perspectives. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

GRRM hasn't fleshed it out any more than that for a bunch of reasons.  One, he isn't doing an ethnographic or socioeconomic study of his fictional city.  He's telling a story; we can infer that King's Landing has all the component parts of a large medieval city because that's the setting.  For storytelling purposes, all that matters is there are a couple very nice districts (Red Keep, the Great Sept), some ruined areas (the Dragonpit) and some shitty areas (Flea Bottom).  Why explore way more of the city when it isn't necessary?  Moreover, it gets to a larger theme of the story, which is that most of the nobility of the Seven Kingdoms has forgotten their social obligations to their lessers; lords and royals feast and party while their smallfolk starve.  That is why the contrast between Flea Bottom and the Red Keep is there,a nd to further explore the city wouldn't add to that narrative.

Precisely my point! I agree that in his mind, there is surely a perfectly adequate merchant class, with all the cobblers, tanners, and tinsmiths you would need for a functioning city. Well, maybe not adequate... probably corrupt, oppressed, and barely functioning. What with the theme of the city, as we've seen. 

Also, it's important to note that many of our POV characters (Davos is one obvious exception) are high nobles from rural and semi-rural castles. To them, a city of many tens of thousands would indeed look like a trash heap, and smell to high heaven. But some of that is perspective. 

Again, all supporting the message that The George is driving home about KL being a silly place. 

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3 hours ago, John Doe said:

Look, it's canon!

In White Habour and Old Town we so far only visited the wealthy parts of the city, while we know about the slums in King's Landing. Different perspectives. 

Sure, why not:

“Back in his smuggling days, the Eel had been renowned for offering the oldest whores and vilest wine in White Harbor, along with meat pies full of lard and gristle that were inedible on their best days and poisonous on their worst. With fare like that, most locals shunned the place, leaving it for sailors who did not know any better. You never saw a city guardsman down in the Lazy Eel, or a customs officer.”

Man that's gotta be the wealthiest part of a city that has cobbled streets and doesn't smell like ass. Wealth! We see nice parts of KL as well. Street of Silk, armorers alley (or whatever). The worst parts of KL are far worse than the worst parts of Oldtown and White harbor.

But what do we know about Oldtown, you ask?

“Pate had never seen King’s Landing, but he knew it was a daub-and-wattle city, a sprawl of mud streets, thatched roofs, and wooden hovels. Oldtown was built in stone, and all its streets were cobbled, down to the meanest alley. The city was never more beautiful than at break of day.”

Like I said, canon. It's easy to take my word for it. It's in the books!

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2 hours ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

Precisely my point! I agree that in his mind, there is surely a perfectly adequate merchant class, with all the cobblers, tanners, and tinsmiths you would need for a functioning city. Well, maybe not adequate... probably corrupt, oppressed, and barely functioning. What with the theme of the city, as we've seen. 

Also, it's important to note that many of our POV characters (Davos is one obvious exception) are high nobles from rural and semi-rural castles. To them, a city of many tens of thousands would indeed look like a trash heap, and smell to high heaven. But some of that is perspective. 

Again, all supporting the message that The George is driving home about KL being a silly place. 

The fact that Tyrion thinks the city is a shit pile and he was in charge of cleaning the drains at CR kind of undermines that point. You're also omitting that most of when we see KL is when it's packed to the gills for the Hand's tourney or with soldiers from an army or it's been starving and under siege. 

Practically the only time we see it in normal conditions is near the end of ADWD

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3 hours ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

Precisely my point! I agree that in his mind, there is surely a perfectly adequate merchant class, with all the cobblers, tanners, and tinsmiths you would need for a functioning city. Well, maybe not adequate... probably corrupt, oppressed, and barely functioning. What with the theme of the city, as we've seen. 

Also, it's important to note that many of our POV characters (Davos is one obvious exception) are high nobles from rural and semi-rural castles. To them, a city of many tens of thousands would indeed look like a trash heap, and smell to high heaven. But some of that is perspective. 

Again, all supporting the message that The George is driving home about KL being a silly place. 

Well, it wasn't my point.  GRRM is pretty good about fleshing out his fantasy settings.  We see a wide range of places in Kings Landing, and hear about yet more.

The fact that the Red Keep and Flea Bottom/Pisswater Bend are mentioned the most is to drive home the point GRRM is making about social structures.  But he mentions plenty of affluent, non-noble citizens, plenty of people who aren't part of a starving mob (before the WOT5K) and plenty of places that aren't explicitly royal or explicitly a disgusting cesspool.

It's not a silly place.  It seems to be a pretty normal city, by the standards that existed before modern urban planning.

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5 minutes ago, Aegon1FanBoy said:

Honestly even Modern Cities smell awful (yea new york smells like piss i do hate going some times) i do agree he does seem to stress KL being Trash i guess that is what he wanted. Hell Lys sounds some what like a paradise along with Quarth.

... aside from the rampant slavery.

Honestly, I think this has more to do with places like Oldtown not being properly fleshed out and visited.  I imagine that with Sam's POVs we'll get some more info on this stuff.  Kings Landing sounds like a real city, Oldtown sounds like a fantasy city.

White Harbor has a very small population, so it's not surprising it's not as dirty; my guess would be a higher proportion of White Harbor is oriented around trade and servicing seafarers (and the Merman's Court) than in King's Landing.

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6 hours ago, syrinx said:

technology and institutions

Technology permits Oldtown and White Harbour, along with Lannisport and Gulltown.

It could have permitted a number of smaller towns. It is institutions that are behind lack of such.

Whose business, precisely, is it to cobble small streets of Oldtown and White Harbour?

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50 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

I dont think it is especially more dirty then any other place i just think it is emphazised to set the tone of coruption that goes on there and the stench isnt mentioned in other places.

I´m sure it is. At least two witnesses specifically call it dirtier by comparison. Davos as a nosewitness, and Pate who reports what must be judgment of witnesses who had experienced both Oldtown and King´s Landing.

So... who are keeping up the urban infrastructure of the few cities Westeros has?

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1 hour ago, Jaak said:

I´m sure it is. At least two witnesses specifically call it dirtier by comparison. Davos as a nosewitness, and Pate who reports what must be judgment of witnesses who had experienced both Oldtown and King´s Landing.

So... who are keeping up the urban infrastructure of the few cities Westeros has?

Probably the ruling house of the cities.

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7 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Probably the ruling house of the cities.

Likely.

But they have other businesses. Like defending the countryside.

So they need actual officials. Probably appointed rather than elected by citizens... but nevertheless officials with charge to keep the city in good order, and budget/influence to do so.

In King´s Landing, City Watch has gold cloaks... but their Lord Commander is not an ex officio member of Small Council, like Lord Commander of Kingsguard is. And their commander... Jon Arryn appointed Janos Slynt to command 2000 men and neglected to knight Janos!

The duties of Gold Cloaks are military/police ones. 2000 men had sufficed for centuries. Joffrey expanded it to 6000, but this was expensive, so Tywin declined to make up losses over 4400 men.

If King´s Landing could afford to hire 4400 men and just 2000 are needed for police, King´s Landing would rather need men to do dirty work. Say, hire 2400 men to haul out waste from the streets, build drains, cobble the side streets et cetera.

Chances are that this is just what Oldtown does. And for some reason, none of the good rulers of King´s Landing have done as yet. Not Aegon V with his concern for smallfolk, not Tywin with his flow of gold AND example of how Lannisport was run smelling better.

Had Tywin cobbled the side alleys of Flea Bottom, the wartime famine and masses of refugees may have piled up waste on cobbled roads as the normal waste clearance broke down and the men joined Watch for better wages... but the streets would not have ceased their cobbled state in a few months. So evidence that the problems were of long standing.

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