sweetsunray Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 43 minutes ago, WSmith84 said: Making alliances with other houses is not treason. The King has no right to stop legitimate marriages. Hell, Aerys had several opportunities to sabotage an alliance by becoming part of it. Engage Edmure or Benjen to Rhaenys and invite him to court, invite Rickard to sit on your council (far away from his troops and lords) etc. Murdering your lords because they're building alliances (which is what lords do) is wrong and, above all, just lazy and stupid. Just because the king is mad, doesn't mean that seeking elligible marriage partners amongst the children of other lords of similar political is suddenly illegal, let alone treasonous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 326 Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 1 hour ago, sweetsunray said: Where does the machine gun comes from all of a sudden. Because a whole bunch of knigths ride with their swords to KL? That's their right, no? No it's not their right to threaten the crown prince and demand that he be punished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 1 hour ago, WSmith84 said: Making alliances with other houses is not treason. The King has no right to stop legitimate marriages. Hell, Aerys had several opportunities to sabotage an alliance by becoming part of it. Engage Edmure or Benjen to Rhaenys and invite him to court, invite Rickard to sit on your council (far away from his troops and lords) etc. Murdering your lords because they're building alliances (which is what lords do) is wrong and, above all, just lazy and stupid. The king has a right to deny them those alliances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HallowedMarcus Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Agent 326 said: Brandon committed treason. Image if 5 guys went to the White House with loaded Machine Guns and demanded that on of the presidents children die and their spouse be returned to them. They would likely get shot on the spo Brandon Stark demanded justice because his sister had been abducted and raped (presumed by him) by Prince Rhaegar. And Lyanna Stark was betrothed to Robert Baratheon. A Sire is supposed to make justice in his domain/realm. There was no treason, he did not demand the Prince to be killed. He demanded direct combat to death with Prince Rhaegar. Don`t forget that Rhaegar was a very good swordsman and won the Harrenhal Tournament. A trial by combat is any Lord's right. Even the crazed delusional assassin Lysa Arryn (Tully) allowed the Imp a trial by combat to decide his fate. The King or the Prince could also have chosen one of the Kingsguard to fight in his stead. Also, I have to agree there is another side of the coin. If Lyanna Stark went willingly with Rhaegar and with the consent of King married, then Brandon's demand was not just but he did not know that. The King should have him arrested, called his father Rickard Stark to King's Landing, which he did, told him what happened and had Brandon arrested for some time or keep him as a hostage. But no he declared them traitors for defending their sister/daughters integrity for being kidnapped and raped. Unbelievable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 3 hours ago, Brandon Baratheon said: Aerys took Jaime and Elia as "captives" against Tywin and Doran. But Brandon alive could be more important: Ned Stark couldn't take action to gather troops in North quickly. Stark-Tully alliance couldn't rise so easily since wedding was cancelled. Aerys killed Brandon to make sure Ned was a main character in the first book. Brandon was far more important dead than alive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSmith84 Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 35 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said: The king has a right to deny them those alliances. Really? Got a quote demonstrating the right of a King to break marriage alliances other lords have made? Obviously, one can circumvent a betrothal, but I see no evidence that the King can simply demand it stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 326 Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 23 minutes ago, HallowedMarcus said: A trial by combat is any Lord's right. Brandon wasn't a lord, he was the son of a lord. Also in the real world they would've been killed on the spot. And demand combat to the death is threatening the crown prince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 57 minutes ago, Agent 326 said: No it's not their right to threaten the crown prince and demand that he be punished. It is his right to seek redress to someone breaking the king's peace. Feudalism is not absolute power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 4 minutes ago, Agent 326 said: Brandon wasn't a lord, he was the son of a lord. Also in the real world they would've been killed on the spot. And demand combat to the death is threatening the crown prince. Tyrion wasn't a lord. He could still demand trial by combat. In fact a hedge knight with not a drop of noble blood can demand trial by combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 53 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said: The king has a right to deny them those alliances. Aerys behaved and acted as if he believed that his political system was one of absolute despotism in a system that isn't legally despotic without even having the actual means to even enforce that type of despotism (no personal standing army, no WMDs, dependant on alliances with his subjects). He can't legally order who marries whom or not marries. He can't forbid a certain family from marrying into another family.His subjects aren't his slaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 3 hours ago, Wolf of The Wall said: Because Aerys II is a nutjob who seeks excuse to burn people alive. You don't expect him to make rational decisions right? 1 hour ago, Brandon Baratheon said: Who wanted to keep his son's wife captive? Here comes the "mad king" part. You take one decision of Aerys that you interpret as rational and argue that therefore all his decisions were rational. No. Aerys II was mad. Unpredictable. Erratic. Madness doesn't preclude some lucid moments, but conversely a lucid moment or two doesn't disprove insanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 326 Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said: Tyrion wasn't a lord. He could still demand trial by combat. In fact a hedge knight with not a drop of noble blood can demand trial by combat. Still you said it was a lord's right. 13 minutes ago, sweetsunray said: It is his right to seek redress to someone breaking the king's peace. Feudalism is not absolute power. Yes but well keep in mind that the person who broke the King's Peace is the crown prince. It is treason to threaten a member of the royal family last time I checked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 2 hours ago, sweetsunray said: It is a COURT room, where audiences are held for people to petition if someone else broke the king's peace. When Rhaegar plucked Lyanna from the road, he broke the king's peace, and her family is within their rights to ride to the king's court, swords on their hips at galopping pace, and charge Rhaegar. It isn't our living room. It's a bunch of guys with swords riding into a castle with dozen times a number of knights, houseguards, kingsgards, city guards, ... and they all carry the same pointy weapon. Exactly! It's a situation where the king obviously isn't in any danger. A handful of men w/ swords, surrounded by hundreds of skilled guards not to mention the KG. It's not a machine gun scenario where one person could possibly inflict a lot of harm on many, including the king. And let's not forget that the king also had, at least in theory, the responsibility to keep the peace, to administer justice and to uphold the law. Aerys failed in all, and quite spectacularly. The other lords must have felt a bit apprehensive. After all, since the king seems incapable of fulfilling his duty, who's to say that they won't be the next ones facing House Targaryen's "champion"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 16 minutes ago, Agent 326 said: Brandon wasn't a lord, he was the son of a lord. Also in the real world they would've been killed on the spot. And demand combat to the death is threatening the crown prince. Don't invest too much into defending Aerys II's actions. Whatever Brandon's crime might have been, the Mad King didn't stop with him, but also murdered: Jeffory Mallister, Kyle Royce, Elbert Arryn. And their fathers. And Rickard Stark. Which destroys the "Aerys was justified" argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 326 Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 1 minute ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said: Don't invest too much into defending Aerys II's actions. Whatever Brandon's crime might have been, the Mad King didn't stop with him, but also murdered: Jeffory Mallister, Kyle Royce, Elbert Arryn. And their fathers. And Rickard Stark. Which destroys the "Aerys was justified" argument. By law Brandon did commit treason and so did his companions. They threatened the crown prince, which last I checked threatening a crown prince anywhere is considered treason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 4 minutes ago, Agent 326 said: By law Brandon did commit treason and so did his companions. They threatened the crown prince, which last I checked threatening a crown prince anywhere is considered treason. He challenged him to a duel. That ain't treason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 326 Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Just now, sweetsunray said: No he challenged him to a duel. He demanded Prince Rhaegar come out and die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 1 minute ago, Agent 326 said: He demanded Prince Rhaegar come out and die. Which is a duel challenge. It's not something you ask nicely or politely. It traditionally comes with challenges and insults, so that the challenged party cannot refuse without coming off as a coward and without honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 5 minutes ago, Agent 326 said: By law Brandon did commit treason and so did his companions. They threatened the crown prince, which last I checked threatening a crown prince anywhere is considered treason. Bullshit. You can pin that accusation on Brandon, it's very difficult to pin it on the people who just kept him company, and simply mad to try to pin it on their fathers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 10 minutes ago, Agent 326 said: By law Brandon did commit treason and so did his companions. They threatened the crown prince, which last I checked threatening a crown prince anywhere is considered treason. No. By law Brandon should have had a trial. And the same goes to Rickard. And don't even think to say that Rickard had one. A Game of Thrones - Tyrion V Lady Lysa rose from her weirwood throne. "I will not be made mock of. You have had your little jape, Imp. I trust you enjoyed it. Ser Vardis, take him back to the dungeon … but this time find him a smaller cell, with a floor more sharply sloped." "Is this how justice is done in the Vale?" Tyrion roared, so loudly that Ser Vardis froze for an instant. "Does honor stop at the Bloody Gate? You accuse me of crimes, I deny them, so you throw me into an open cell to freeze and starve." He lifted his head, to give them all a good look at the bruises Mord had left on his face. "Where is the king's justice? Is the Eyrie not part of the Seven Kingdoms? I stand accused, you say. Very well. I demand a trial! Let me speak, and let my truth or falsehood be judged openly, in the sight of gods and men." A low murmuring filled the High Hall. He had her, Tyrion knew. He was highborn, the son of the most powerful lord in the realm, the brother of the queen. He could not be denied a trial. Guardsmen in sky-blue cloaks had started toward Tyrion, but Ser Vardis bid them halt and looked to Lady Lysa. ETA: as @sweetsunray has brought up already! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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