Why Aerys killed Brandon?

[WSmith84]

39 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

"Brandon.  Yes, Brandon would know what to do.  He always did.  It was all meant for Brandon.  Winterfell, you, everything.  He was born to be a king's hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

p. 60, AGOT.

It sems to me that Rickard Stark and Robert Baratheon were plotting their treason for years.  The pregnant lady that Bran saw, that could have been the mother of Rickard seeking revenge against the Targaryens. 

What does this quote have to do with anything? It's Ned lamenting that he was never brought up to rule, Brandon was. Nothing more. Again, what actual evidence do you have that Robert and Rickard were plotting treason?

The woman could be Rickard's mother. But it's impossible to say.

[Moiraine Sedai]

6 hours ago, Brandon Baratheon said:

Aerys took Jaime and Elia as "captives" against Tywin and Doran. But Brandon alive could be more important:

• Ned Stark couldn't take action to gather troops in North quickly.
• Stark-Tully alliance couldn't rise so easily since wedding was cancelled.

Edit: Compare it to Ned's execution and how Tywin and Tyrion reacted to it.

Brandon could be used as a hostage.  But it was better to use him as bait to lure Rickard Stark to the capital and execute him.  Brandon outlived his usefulness as soon as Rickard presented himself before the throne.  Brandon was expendable at that point and given the treatment that he deserved.

What do you all think would happen if a pack of armed men entered the White House and made threats against the president's family?  The dummy and his friends would be shot on the spot by the Secret Service.  Aerys owned Brandon's life and it was Aerys' to take as soon as Brandon made those murderous threats.  Brandon was responsible for his own and his companions' death.

[WSmith84]

17 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

What do you all think would happen if a pack of armed men entered the White House and made threats against the president's family?  The dummy and his friends would be shot on the spot by the Secret Service.  Aerys owned Brandon's life and it was Aerys' to take as soon as Brandon made those murderous threats.  Brandon was responsible for his own and his companions' death.

An imperfect analogy to say the least. One, it is perfectly acceptable to be in the presence of a King while armed. To bare steel is not, but we've no indication that that happened. Two, Brandon's challenge could be interpreted as a challenge to a duel, which is perfectly legal in Westeros. Three, Rhaegar had, to the eyes of many, committed a crime or at the very least broken the King's peace. Four, even if you think guilt by association makes Brandon's friends guilty, it in no way makes their fathers guilty.

Oh, and, no, those people wouldn't be shot on the spot, unless they were actually pointing weapons at people. They'd have guns drawn on them and they'd be tackled to the ground and arrested (which presumably happened to Brandon and co.) and then they'd be put on trial.

Finally, even if Aerys' actions were completely legal (I'd say that they were almost certainly not) that doesn't make them wise or moral. In fact, they were both despicable and stupid. Aerys had a fantastic opportunity to cover his son's own crime (as many would see it), remove the Starks as a threat (without killing them), demonstrate that he was a strong, just but merciful monarch and probably secure himself some new hostages, loyalty and respect. But he wasted it, because he was a paranoid nutjob.

[sweetsunray]

27 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

What do you all think would happen if a pack of armed men entered the White House and made threats against the president's family?  The dummy and his friends would be shot on the spot by the Secret Service. 

Different situation, different weapons. No guns, no potential bomb packed around the waist. The president isn't a judge. The White House isn't the court to ask for justice.

In our society, an angry brother of a kidnapped girl would go make a ruckus at the police station. Police would overpower him and put him in a cell to cool off for a night.

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

Also the legal scenario couldn't be more different. Anyone who thinks the analogy is valid is woefully ignorant of medieval society. 

Or in this case, a moderately fleshed-out fantasy version of medieval society. 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, Agent 326 said:

Challenge accepted

• Stannis
• Varys
• Ned
• Does Jon Arryn count?
• Pycelle (maybe, or he maybe let Jon Arryn die because he knew Cersei needed him to die, and not from him knowing Cersei and Jaime's little secret)
• Loras and Renly
• Littlefinger
• Illyrio? (Saying this because he was told by Varys and it seems as though they are familiar with this topic so who knows, maybe they visited each other more often then we think)

LF seems to know but it's not confirmed (and he doesn't care). Varys knows. I was thinking Arryn, Stannis, and Ned. Pycelle doesn't know, at least definitely not before Stannis sent the letter. Illyrio had no idea or doesn't care, most likely the former. Loras and Renly give literally no indication they know or believe it. Go find some textual proof for anyone else. The majority of the small council did not know that Robert's children were illegitimate. You can hardly preface your statements with "so many characters know", especially when the ones who know die real quickly and none of the rest can prove it.

[Universal Sword Donor]

56 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Different situation, different weapons. No guns, no potential bomb packed around the waist. The president isn't a judge. The White House isn't the court to ask for justice.

In our society, an angry brother of a kidnapped girl would go make a ruckus at the police station. Police would overpower him and put him in a cell to cool off for a night.

They might even, ya know, ask why he thought she was kidnapped and who she might be with. Perhaps open an investigation

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, WSmith84 said:

An imperfect analogy to say the least. One, it is perfectly acceptable to be in the presence of a King while armed. To bare steel is not, but we've no indication that that happened. Two, Brandon's challenge could be interpreted as a challenge to a duel, which is perfectly legal in Westeros. Three, Rhaegar had, to the eyes of many, committed a crime or at the very least broken the King's peace. Four, even if you think guilt by association makes Brandon's friends guilty, it in no way makes their fathers guilty.

Oh, and, no, those people wouldn't be shot on the spot, unless they were actually pointing weapons at people. They'd have guns drawn on them and they'd be tackled to the ground and arrested (which presumably happened to Brandon and co.) and then they'd be put on trial.

Finally, even if Aerys' actions were completely legal (I'd say that they were almost certainly not) that doesn't make them wise or moral. In fact, they were both despicable and stupid. Aerys had a fantastic opportunity to cover his son's own crime (as many would see it), remove the Starks as a threat (without killing them), demonstrate that he was a strong, just but merciful monarch and probably secure himself some new hostages, loyalty and respect. But he wasted it, because he was a paranoid nutjob.

1) they weren't even in the presence of the king. I only point that out because no one but his KG was permitted to be armed around Aerys II at that point IIRC

2) It very well could, but even as reasonable as it seems I'd expect it to land him in jail (temporarily). Challenging the crown prince to a duel and threatening him are two sides of the same coin. Most of us here would agree with that.

3) Ties in with #2. I agree that is worth investigating. Should have just kept Brandon and company close at hand until he could confirm Rhaegar left with Lyanna. But, ya know, him being insane and all.

4) 100% on point from here out

[sweetsunray]

51 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Two, Brandon's challenge could be interpreted as a challenge to a duel, which is perfectly legal in Westeros. Three, Rhaegar had, to the eyes of many, committed a crime or at the very least broken the King's peace. Four, even if you think guilt by association makes Brandon's friends guilty, it in no way makes their fathers guilty.

This discussion in this thread has actually made me reconsider the idea that Brandon was actually all that "foolish". Hoster calls him "gallant fool" and Littlefinger thinks it hilarious, but for some reason Ned still considers Brandon as the one who it was all meant for and who'd know what to do. Surely Ned knows about Brandon riding for KL and challenging Rhaegar to come out and die. So, why does he still feel beholden to Brandon and consider him the wiser one, deserving of a statue like a Lord of WF in the crypts?

Well, from a certain perspective, Brandon's challenge could have solved the whole abduction issue.

1. He words the challenge so that if Rhaegar had been in KL, Rhaegar could not but have given in and duel against Brandon.
2. In the case that Rhaegar dies. Fine, they have Lyanna back, her honor completely saved and likely the alliance with Robert Baratheon, and Brandon still gets to marry Catelyn Tully.
3. In the case that Brandon dies in the duel, Rhaegar can keep Lyanna as mistress, without her and her family being dishonored. Brandon still fougth for her, and the realm would see her as being taken against her family's will, and it effectively would prevent war.

Lyanna's abduction could not have gone unanswered. Rickard would lose all credibility with his vassals if he simply allows his daughter, betrothed to an LP of the Stormlands to be a crown prince's mistress. This would have led to rebellion talk. But if Brandon moves ahead of Rickard and Northern Lords hearing of it and dies in a duel defending his siter's honor, he smartly created a situation where Rickard can mourn his eldest son, make Ned Stark heir and marry him to Catelyn, while no Northern lord is gonna bother Rickard anymore with rebelious war talk. It would have saved everyone's face. 

And the more witnesses Brandon has with him to tell the Northerners and the lords in the Vale, including Robert Baratheon, how Brandon fought, lost and died, the smoother everybody else can move on. That's why he brings that many important heirs and men with him. So they can tell the tale of Brandon defending his sister's honor. Sad story, but there it would have ended.

This would have made it a self sacrificing act to avoid war by Brandon. And in fact, the executions seem to point to this attitude with Brandon. Rickard was burned, for Brandon to watch, to try and save his father by self-sacrifice. Why set the execution up this way, if it was not known to those in KL that's exactly what Brandon tried to do - keep the rest of the North, his family and his father out of it. Ethan Glover was the man to relate this to Ned Stark. And Ned Stark erects a statue for Brandon, because he knows that Brandon wasn't actually hotheadedly foolish, but thinking like a warden on how to solve it. 

If that was Brandon's political intention - have it all end with a one-on-one combat instead of war - then he would have sent a courier or a raven to WF before he stormed off to KL ASAP, and this would explain Rickard's rather passive response, and not doing anything, until he receives a summons to appear at court to answer for his son's "crimes".

[sweetsunray]

32 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Pycelle doesn't know, at least definitely not before Stannis sent the letter.

He knew, because he confesses to Tyrion that he stopped Coleman from purging Jon Arryn, while Pycelle knew and recognized the signs that Arryn was poisoned by tears of Lys. Pycelle did that, because he believed that Cersei wanted Jon Arryn dead for "knowing that ..." (George's ellypsis). Tyrion doesn't allow Pycelle to finish his sentence in front of Timett and Shagga, because he doesn't want them to know, but Tyrion and Pycelle understand one another right there and then. Pycelle knew at least around the time that Jon Arryn was poisoned. Pycelle didn't care, because he's totally 100% pro Lannister (especially Tywin). Anything for Tywin to be hand of the king or even king himself. If it would take a twincest Lannister bastard ont he throne, so be it.

[sweetsunray]

33 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

They might even, ya know, ask why he thought she was kidnapped and who she might be with. Perhaps open an investigation

[WSmith84]

34 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

1) they weren't even in the presence of the king. I only point that out because no one but his KG was permitted to be armed around Aerys II at that point IIRC

2) It very well could, but even as reasonable as it seems I'd expect it to land him in jail (temporarily). Challenging the crown prince to a duel and threatening him are two sides of the same coin. Most of us here would agree with that.

3) Ties in with #2. I agree that is worth investigating. Should have just kept Brandon and company close at hand until he could confirm Rhaegar left with Lyanna. But, ya know, him being insane and all.

4) 100% on point from here out

1) Hadn't thought about that. Interesting point.

2) Oh I'd certainly expect Brandon to end up imprisoned. I mentioned in another post, but Aerys seeing Brandon's actions as treasonous doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me. Aerys' handling of the situation on the other hand...

[HallowedMarcus]

15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, from a certain perspective, Brandon's challenge could have solved the whole abduction issue.

   You presume she was abducted. She might have gone willingly.

   You presume he took her as a mistress. You forget that the Targaryens could have more than one wife. The King had that right and any male Targaryen with the consent of the King.Lyanna Stark was touched by Rhaegar's song, some even say that she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. If it is shown later on in the books that she went willingly and that they were married by a Septon (or High Septon) with the consent of the King then they would be husband and wife. The Starks would have been somehow dishonored (Lyanna broke her betrothal) but at the end, Rickard Stark would have been happy his grandson would be a Targaryen. If that is true then the Mad King is really totally insane and instead of just telling them the truth chose to get them and their fathers killed.

[snow is the man]

Brandon rode in and demanded that the king hand over rheagar to be killed. Sorry but this was a dumb move on so many levels. First he didn't know anything besides she went with him. He doesn't know if it was willingly or by force. Second even a normal king couldn't have let that go.

[snow is the man]

The real question is why did he kill rickard stark. Rickard stark didn't do anything as far as I know except come when the king summoned him. This was aery's being insane.

[WSmith84]

6 minutes ago, HallowedMarcus said:

   You presume she was abducted. She might have gone willingly.

   You presume he took her as a mistress. You forget that the Targaryens could have more than one wife. The King had that right and any male Targaryen with the consent of the King.Lyanna Stark was touched by Rhaegar's song, some even say that she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. If it is shown later on in the books that she went willingly and that they were married by a Septon (or High Septon) with the consent of the King then they would be husband and wife. The Starks would have been somehow dishonored (Lyanna broke her betrothal) but at the end, Rickard Stark would have been happy his grandson would be a Targaryen. If that is true then the Mad King is really totally insane and instead of just telling them the truth chose to get them and their fathers killed.

In a Westerosi context, I'm not sure it would have mattered all that much if Lyanna went willingly or not. Many would have seen it as an affront to Stark honour (whether they were pleased by that or not). Secondly, polygamy might have been legal for the Targaryens but the only ones who were ever successful were Kings; all Princes that tried it were denied it, and I doubt (given the relationship between Rhaegar and Aerys) that Aerys' support would have been forthcoming. Also, just because Rhaegar could do it legally, it doesn't mean that the lords of Westeros would have accepted it. Next, Rickard would still have to deal with his damaged honour, Robert's fury and his own lords' disdain. And having future Prince Targaryens as grandchildren is nice, but they'd inherit diddly-squat. Having future Baratheons as grandchildren means that Rickard's family would control the North, Riverlands and Stormlands; seems a better deal to me.

[The Frosted King]

Because Aerys was insane?

A smart ruler would've summoned the fathers there, and perhaps either punished their Houses financially, or more drastically, sentenced all the hotheads to the Wall. 

The realm would grumble, but the pot wouldn't boil over.

Aerys was king yes, but Westeros isn't an absolute monarchy in the sense that the lords have no power.

Mess with the wrong name, and you might find yourself toppled.

Rhaegar knew this, as did his secret council. Aerys, did not.

[HallowedMarcus]

11 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

And having future Prince Targaryens as grandchildren is nice, but they'd inherit diddly-squat.

   They inherit directly Dragonstone, Summerhall and indirectly (rule) Westeros.

   And the Vale's children would be Arryns and he Riverrun's Tullys.

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, HallowedMarcus said:

   They inherit directly Dragonstone, Summerhall and indirectly (rule) Westeros.

   And the Vale's children would be Arryns and he Riverrun's Tullys.

Why Dragonstone? that is Aegon's and Aegon's son's. 

Summerhall is just ruins. There is no Summerhall to inherit. 

Lyanna's son does not have land to inherit. 

The best will be that Aegon can give her son some land like Daeron towards Daemon Blackfyre (unlikely considering what Lyanna and Rhaegar did against Elia). 

Normally Lyanna's son will be just like Daemon Targaryen, who had to marry Lady Rhea because she has land to inherit. 

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, HallowedMarcus said:

   They inherit directly Dragonstone, Summerhall and indirectly (rule) Westeros.

   And the Vale's children would be Arryns and he Riverrun's Tullys.

and since when king's half brother can indirectly rule Westeros? 

Not to mention many people will still think Lyanna as glorified mistress even if Rhaegar somehow pulled polygamy and announced her as second wife. Her children will be called bastards by many people.