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Why Aerys killed Brandon?


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10 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

I have thought for some time that Martin has engaged in some misdirection where Brandon is concerned.  We have only a few disparaging remarks about him from unreliable people, and Ned seemed to think highly of him.  @sweetsunray may have the right of it; that Brandon decided to seek redress personally, leaving his father with two other heirs and the ability to declare war or sue for peace.

Jaime's drunken tale to Catelyn is something else that I have serious doubts about anymore.  He claims that Brandon was shouting for Rhaegar to "come out and die", but never said that he was there or actually heard what Brandon said when he arrived in Kings Landing.  Perhaps Brandon sought redress in a calm and legal manner.  Jaime did tell Cat that Brandon was more like him than his own brother Ned, perhaps he was projecting how he would of reacted had someone kidnapped Cersei.

After all, we don't know how Brandon found out about the abduction, or why Ethan Glover was spared.

 

Lady Dustin seems reliable to me. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Gabbie Roxas said:

Lady Dustin seems reliable to me. 

 

Possibly, but, either she is lying to Theon, which makes her story unreliable, or she is still nursing a grievance against the Starks seventeen years later to the point that she wants to desecrate a man's bones, which IMHO, makes her story unreliable.

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46 minutes ago, Gabbie Roxas said:

Why did Aerys execute Brandon?

Because Brandon committed an intolerable and inexcusable crime.  He rode into the Red Keep and threatened to kill the current Prince of Dragonstone.  I also suspect the Starks were already treasonous by that time.  They were plotting with the Baratheons to take down the Targaryens.  Obviously, if you believe the Starks are innocent of "southron ambitions" you and I will disagree.  Because I believe the Starks were already in bed with the Baratheons to take down the Targaryens Aerys had a right to treat Brandon and Rickard any way he pleases.  Fuck trial by combat.  Brandon threatened to kill Rhaegar in public.  No need for further fact finding.  I am sure Varys already compiled some evidence and the king's torturers got every drop of information they needed from Brandon. 1

Executing Brandon by strangulation and Rickard by roasting is no worse than Stannis burning his own men for eating their dead on a march he forced them to take.  What Aerys did was perfectly fine considering the Starks were guilty of treason.  All Stannis' men did was eat the dead to keep from starvation.  2

It is very reasonable to see why Aerys would want to kill Robert and Eddard.  Brandon admitted under questioning that they too were part of the plan.  The only mistake Aerys made was sending a raven to Jon Arryn.  He should have invited all of the Starks and Robert to KL and executed them all. 3

1 - I've said before, but Aerys executing Brandon may have been a legally correct decision, regardless of whether it was stupid or not (there's discussion whether Brandon's call was meant to be a challenge to a duel - which is a right he had). But Brandon's behaviour is not sufficient reason to execute his father, or his companions, or indeed their fathers. Second, Southron Ambitions is soooooooo vague that it's impossible to draw any conclusions from what it means. Could it mean treason? Yes. Could it mean that Rickard wanted to improve trade relations with the South? Also yes. Without further evidence. it's a meaningless piece of information. Also, torture anyone and they'll confess to whatever you want; see the Blue Bard. So any information that Aerys extracted from torture is pretty much meaningless.

2 - Again, you don't actually have any evidence that the Starks committed treason. That you believe it to be so is fine, but it's not going to convince anyone.

3 - Well, let's see. We have several chapters inside Ned Stark's head and yet there's not a hint he was involved in any kind of conspiracy against the Targaryens. Indeed, given his attitude to oaths and loyalty it would be completely against Ned's character to plot against his King.

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15 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

1 - I've said before, but Aerys executing Brandon may have been a legally correct decision, regardless of whether it was stupid or not (there's discussion whether Brandon's call was meant to be a challenge to a duel - which is a right he had). But Brandon's behaviour is not sufficient reason to execute his father, or his companions, or indeed their fathers. Second, Southron Ambitions is soooooooo vague that it's impossible to draw any conclusions from what it means. Could it mean treason? Yes. Could it mean that Rickard wanted to improve trade relations with the South? Also yes. Without further evidence. it's a meaningless piece of information. Also, torture anyone and they'll confess to whatever you want; see the Blue Bard. So any information that Aerys extracted from torture is pretty much meaningless.

Aerys has the right to refuse trial by combat.  The facts are not in question and there were witnesses that Brandon was threatening Rheagar.  Aerys could correctly refuse to honor any requests for combat by Brandon and Rickard.

2 - Again, you don't actually have any evidence that the Starks committed treason. That you believe it to be so is fine, but it's not going to convince anyone.

I also believe Barbrey Dustin is correct.  She's sharp and she seems to really know a great deal about the Starks.  

3 - Well, let's see. We have several chapters inside Ned Stark's head and yet there's not a hint he was involved in any kind of conspiracy against the Targaryens. Indeed, given his attitude to oaths and loyalty it would be completely against Ned's character to plot against his King.

Consider Stannis.  He knew it was wrong to rebel against Aerys.  Yet he did because he chose blood over honor.  Maybe Ned was a shit head in his youth and he chose his family over his loyalty to the king of the realm.

 

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33 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

1 - I've said before, but Aerys executing Brandon may have been a legally correct decision, regardless of whether it was stupid or not (there's discussion whether Brandon's call was meant to be a challenge to a duel - which is a right he had). But Brandon's behaviour is not sufficient reason to execute his father, or his companions, or indeed their fathers. Second, Southron Ambitions is soooooooo vague that it's impossible to draw any conclusions from what it means. Could it mean treason? Yes. Could it mean that Rickard wanted to improve trade relations with the South? Also yes. Without further evidence. it's a meaningless piece of information. Also, torture anyone and they'll confess to whatever you want; see the Blue Bard. So any information that Aerys extracted from torture is pretty much meaningless.

2 - Again, you don't actually have any evidence that the Starks committed treason. That you believe it to be so is fine, but it's not going to convince anyone.

3 - Well, let's see. We have several chapters inside Ned Stark's head and yet there's not a hint he was involved in any kind of conspiracy against the Targaryens. Indeed, given his attitude to oaths and loyalty it would be completely against Ned's character to plot against his King.

I think that brandon commited treason and if aery's killed him but let his father live there would be anger but no rebeliion. But killing rickard stark was completly unnecesary and illegal. Ned had to rebel after that. I mean how could he go to see aery's when he couldn't trust him not to kill him.  I don't think  the starks commited treason

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4 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

Ned seemed to think highly of him.

Yes, while we go on Hoster Tully's comments to Catelyn about the gallant fool, and Jaime's story, it's so easy to forget Ned's words and actions that reveal how highly he thought of Brandon. Even if Ned's judgment is partially clouded by the love for a sibling, he still thinks that Brandon was the one made to be a Hand of the King, not himself, and I wouldn't just chalk that off as "he's only speaking in terms of Brandon being firstborn" too quickly.

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2 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Aerys has the right to refuse trial by combat.  The facts are not in question and there were witnesses that Brandon was threatening Rheagar.  Aerys could correctly refuse to honor any requests for combat by Brandon and Rickard.

Actually no, legally he cannot refuse trial by combat. If Aerys does that, he's condemnign and executing Brandon illegally.

Quote

"You have another choice, though," Prince Baelor said quietly. "Whether it is a better choice or a worse one, I cannot say, but I remind you that any knight accused of a crime has the right to demand trial by combat. [...]" (The Hedge Knight)

Loads of witnesses saw Dunk strike at Prince Aerion, and Dunk doesn't even deny he did. But even then Dunk is still to be regarded as an "accused" and can demand trial by combat.

The facts of striking Prince Aerion were not in question, and there were witnesses that Dunk threatened Aerion. And yet legally speaking Dunk was an 'accused" (not condemned man) and he could demand trial by combat. If someone can legally demand something, then that means the demand cannot be refused. That's the difference between "demand" or "request"

3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I also believe Barbrey Dustin is correct.  She's sharp and she seems to really know a great deal about the Starks.

She's sharp and knows some things about the Starks, and yet she also believes that Brandon didn't want to marry Catelyn, that he truly wanted her - which sounds like a woman who's telling herself a lie for the past 17-18 years about Brandon. 

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, while we go on Hoster Tully's comments to Catelyn about the gallant fool, and Jaime's story, it's so easy to forget Ned's words and actions that reveal how highly he thought of Brandon. Even if Ned's judgment is partially clouded by the love for a sibling, he still thinks that Brandon was the one made to be a Hand of the King, not himself, and I wouldn't just chalk that off as "he's only speaking in terms of Brandon being firstborn" too quickly.

Ned told Arya that Brandon had more than a touch of the wolf's blood and it led him to an early grave. Not sure if that's really an endorsement of Brandon's actions. I think Ned can't quite shake off 'second son syndrome' and maybe his comments are as much about his own insecurities as Brandon's capabilities. Brandon was definitely the one raised to be lord, though.

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2 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

Ned told Arya that Brandon had more than a touch of the wolf's blood and it led him to an early grave.

Sure, but he still refers to him as the one who should be Hand anyway.

Ned could regard Brandon's actions as having more than a touch of wolf's blood (as in extremely bold), but nevertheless still recognize it as strategic. And regardless of strategic intent, Brandon went into an early grave, because Rhaegar wasn't actually there to answer the challenge, and Aerys was mad.

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6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Sure, but he still refers to him as the one who should be Hand anyway.

Ned could regard Brandon's actions as having more than a touch of wolf's blood (as in extremely bold), but nevertheless still recognize it as strategic. And regardless of strategic intent, Brandon went into an early grave, because Rhaegar wasn't actually there to answer the challenge, and Aerys was mad.

Fair point. Still, it might have been more strategic to inquire if Rhaegar was actually in the Red Keep before calling for him to come out and die! Reconnaissance obviously wasn't one of Brandon's skills.

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On Invalid Date at 6:54 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Brandon and his thugs rode in and threatened Rhaegar.  If a bunch of rough looking, angry men came in with their weapons and entered your living room, what would you do?  Many people in the U.S. would shoot them down.  

It's not really an unexpected or necessarily unwarranted action if I kidnapped one of their sisters.

 

On Invalid Date at 7:01 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Even more so.  Brandon did not humbly seek an audience, he demanded Rhaegar to come out and threatened his life.  Would you expect to threaten a judge in his court room and get away with it?

If the judge kidnapped my sister.

 

Aerys had Brandon and Rickard killed because he was a paranoid psycho who thought that a "show of force" would force the other lords of the land back into line and prevent the uprising he was convinced was imminent. That's my opinion anyways.

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Aerys suffered from paranoia. He also had a knack in having great ideas only to ruin them with his overreaction.  The way he handled Brandon is a classic example of it. By arresting Brandon and by forcing his father to answer for his son’s crime, Aerys secured an opportunity of sorting this issue once and for all on friendly soil before in degenerated into a civil war. Ideally Rickard and Aerys would sort their issues, with Aerys helping Rickard in finding his daughter which would nip Rhaegar’s plans of rebellion to its bud. However, if that didn’t occurred, the crown would now be in possession of two prestigious hostages that would have crippled Robert’s rebellion before it even started. It’s a shame that Aerys didn’t see it that way.


However its incorrect to attribute everything over Aerys. Prior to Lyanna’s kidnap, the Targeryan dynasty was still grieving Aerys grandfather’s wise rule. Egg was a great king who spent years trying to reform the kingdom making it a fairer place to live in. His wardens & LP didn’t allow that to happen, forcing Egg to resort to magic to try and resurrect the only power on earth capable to of forcing these powerful lords to kneel.  Summerhall stripped the Targeryan dynasty of a great king and his heir ie Aerys grandfather and uncle.  Such incident changed Aerys life forever as his father, now king, forced him to marry his sister.


Aerys experience with his Lords was hardly great either. He was taken as hostage in Duskendale, were his closest friend urged the rest to storm the city because ‘after all we’ve got a better king in Rhaegar’. Later on someone close to Rhaegar had organized the tourney of Harrenhal which, according to Varys, was planned to become a recruitment ground to a possible rebellion lead by his own son. 


So imagine how Aerys must have felt when this impudent Stark came to KL openly challenging the crown. He must have seen him as the personification of this open rebellion against the Targeryan rule that had been brewing for many years and had costed him his grandfather, his uncle and nearly his life. What better opportunity to show all Westeros that the Targs don’t need dragons to make an example out of this rebel and his family? As said it’s a shame that Aerys didn’t went past his rage. The Starks, the Tullys and the Baratheons could have easily became allies to the crown if only Aerys directed them against their common ‘enemy’ ie Rhaegar, Once Rhaegar was sent to the wall, the mad king would have had a good opportunity to sort things with his old friend by suggesting a marriage between the new crown prince Viserys and Cersei.
 

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23 minutes ago, devilish said:

Aerys suffered from paranoia. He also had a knack in having great ideas only to ruin them with his overreaction.  The way he handled Brandon is a classic example of it. By arresting Brandon and by forcing his father to answer for his son’s crime, Aerys secured an opportunity of sorting this issue once and for all on friendly soil before in degenerated into a civil war. Ideally Rickard and Aerys would sort their issues, with Aerys helping Rickard in finding his daughter which would nip Rhaegar’s plans of rebellion to its bud. However, if that didn’t occurred, the crown would now be in possession of two prestigious hostages that would have crippled Robert’s rebellion before it even started. It’s a shame that Aerys didn’t see it that way.


However its incorrect to attribute everything over Aerys. Prior to Lyanna’s kidnap, the Targeryan dynasty was still grieving Aerys grandfather’s wise rule. Egg was a great king who spent years trying to reform the kingdom making it a fairer place to live in. His wardens & LP didn’t allow that to happen, forcing Egg to resort to magic to try and resurrect the only power on earth capable to of forcing these powerful lords to kneel.  Summerhall stripped the Targeryan dynasty of a great king and his heir ie Aerys grandfather and uncle.  Such incident changed Aerys life forever as his father, now king, forced him to marry his sister.


Aerys experience with his Lords was hardly great either. He was taken as hostage in Duskendale, were his closest friend urged the rest to storm the city because ‘after all we’ve got a better king in Rhaegar’. Later on someone close to Rhaegar had organized the tourney of Harrenhal which, according to Varys, was planned to become a recruitment ground to a possible rebellion lead by his own son. 


So imagine how Aerys must have felt when this impudent Stark came to KL openly challenging the crown. He must have seen him as the personification of this open rebellion against the Targeryan rule that had been brewing for many years and had costed him his grandfather, his uncle and nearly his life. What better opportunity to show all Westeros that the Targs don’t need dragons to make an example out of this rebel and his family? As said it’s a shame that Aerys didn’t went past his rage. The Starks, the Tullys and the Baratheons could have easily became allies to the crown if only Aerys directed them against their common ‘enemy’ ie Rhaegar, Once Rhaegar was sent to the wall, the mad king would have had a good opportunity to sort things with his old friend by suggesting a marriage between the new crown prince Viserys and Cersei.
 

Egg was still king when Aerys and Rhaella were forced to marry. A pregnant Rhaella was rescued from the flames at Summerhall and gave birth to Rhaegar on the spot. Hence Rhaegar's fascination with the place.

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1 minute ago, Wall Flower said:

Egg was still king when Aerys and Rhaella were forced to marry. A pregnant Rhaella was rescued from the flames at Summerhall and gave birth to Rhaegar on the spot. Hence Rhaegar's fascination with the place.

my mistake on that part. The rest is still relevant though

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7 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Fair point. Still, it might have been more strategic to inquire if Rhaegar was actually in the Red Keep before calling for him to come out and die! Reconnaissance obviously wasn't one of Brandon's skills.

How clear-sighted of you to see that.

i wonder what was in the message that spurred poor Brandon on the path that would lead to that hideous travesty of a trial by combat.

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14 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

 

1 - Again, even if we accept that Brandon was definitely guilty (which for the sake of the argument I am doing) that does not mean that Rickard is guilty of anything. Rickard is entitled to a trial for any crime that Aerys accuses him of, and Aerys is not entitled to deny him a trial by combat. Plus, as Sweetsunray already pointed out, Dunk was allowed a trial by combat (and it couldn't be denied him) even though he struck a Prince in full view of a crowd; he was undeniably guilty, yet he still got a trial!

2 - Again, all Barbrey Dustin says is that Rickard had 'Southron Ambitions' - which is evidence of ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. It might mean that Rickard wanted to overthrow Aerys. Or it might mean that Rickard wanted closer ties with southern houses, or that he had an interest in new trade deals, or that he wanted a Stark on the Small Council etc. etc. Southron Ambitions is too vague to use as evidence for treason. You might as well say 'Rickard looked at Aerys funny once, he clearly hated him and wanted him dead.'

3 - Well, if Ned was a shit head when he was young it would be nice to have some evidence to suggest this. Robert says to Ned 'you were never the boy you were' which suggests that Ned hasn't changed much from his youth. Also, we have no hints from Ned's chapters about a plot to overthrow the Targaryens when he was young. Indeed, when he is trying to convince Robert to leave Daenerys alone he asks 'Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?' Does that sound like Ned was plotting to remove Aerys from the start? Also, you say Ned maybe chose his family over honour, like Stannis, but Ned had no option to remain loyal - Aerys had demanded that he die. Well, I suppose he could have cut off his own head, but anyone who suggests that that would have been the right thing for Ned to do is clearly deluded. Then there's the fact that Ned called for Jaime to be sent to the Wall for killing Aerys (that would be a tad hypocritical if Ned had been a traitor) and that he demanded Tywin be punished for killing Elia and her children. All of Ned's actions during the war suggest that he was basically the same man we meet in AGoT, albeit slightly more cynical and world-weary.

I'm not saying that the Starks were definitely innocent, but I'd like some actual evidence before making the conclusion that they weren't. And no, SOUTHRON AMBITIONS IS NOT EVIDENCE OF TREASON. It is evidence, however, of having ambitions. In the south.

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14 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

and yet she also believes that Brandon didn't want to marry Catelyn, that he truly wanted her

From all we know she could be right. It's quite possibly that Brandon was forced to marry Cat.

3 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

I'm not saying that the Starks were definitely innocent, but I'd like some actual evidence before making the conclusion that they weren't. And no, SOUTHRON AMBITIONS IS NOT EVIDENCE OF TREASON. It is evidence, however, of having ambitions. In the south.

Obviously someone cannot have ambitions about making his family stronger through marriage something that has happened since the dawn of time, it has to be treason.

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5 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

I'm not saying that the Starks were definitely innocent, but I'd like some actual evidence before making the conclusion that they weren't. And no, SOUTHRON AMBITIONS IS NOT EVIDENCE OF TREASON. It is evidence, however, of having ambitions. In the south.

They're pretty innocent.  Yes, Brandon might have been rash when he "threatened" Rhaegar, but as many characters say, words are wind, and Rhaegar had, in his mind, committed a very grievous crime.

And Aerys executes him because he's a psychopath, no more, no less.  You might ask why he also wants to execute Ned and Robert.  Or why he executes all the other lordlings riding with Brandon Stark.

He dooms his own dynasty, and Rhaegar doesn't help by fighting to keep him on the throne.

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15 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Brandon might have been rash when he "threatened" Rhaegar

*Might* is the magic word. It is much more likely that it never happened. Because if it did happened either Jaime was with Brandon when he said it or Aerys allowed to Brandon coming in the Red Keep with his swords. Somehow I cannot see it.

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9 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

They're pretty innocent.  Yes, Brandon might have been rash when he "threatened" Rhaegar, but as many characters say, words are wind, and Rhaegar had, in his mind, committed a very grievous crime.

And Aerys executes him because he's a psychopath, no more, no less.  You might ask why he also wants to execute Ned and Robert.  Or why he executes all the other lordlings riding with Brandon Stark.

He dooms his own dynasty, and Rhaegar doesn't help by fighting to keep him on the throne.

:agree:

And as @sweetsunray pointed out upthread, Brandon had every right to challenge Rhaegar to a duel. Could he have gone about in a much more intelligent way? Absolutely. Still doesn't change the fact that Brandon calling Rhaegar to "come out and die" was totally within his rights.  

And the bold... this is something that intrigues me enormously. By all accounts, Rhaegar was an intelligent and sensible man, with a profound sense of duty. And we get this from many different characters: Selmy, Ned, Jaime etc. The only person to ever speak poorly of Rhaegar is Robert. How then, did he [apparently] make quite a few spectacularly stupid mistakes? 

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