Why Aerys killed Brandon?

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

From all we know she could be right. It's quite possibly that Brandon was forced to marry Cat.

Well he scratched LF very badly over Cat, and when Cat asked him to spare LF's life, he did so. Cat was a beautiful girl with spirit. It's why Jaime remembers he was far more interested in Cat himself than Lysa, when he visited RR in his youth. Seems to me Brandon was in it with Dustin for the nookie, because she wanted to give it. His actions regarding Cat suggest that his words to Barbrey were just wind.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well he scratched LF very badly over Cat, and when Cat asked him to spare LF's life, he did so. Cat was a beautiful girl with spirit. It's why Jaime remembers he was far more interested in Cat himself than Lysa, when he visited RR in his youth. Seems to me Brandon was in it with Dustin for the nookie, because she wanted to give it. His actions regarding Cat suggest that his words to Barbrey were just wind.

Cat was going to be his wife and his honor was at stake. Even if Rickard had dragged him to be married and he loathed Cat he was forced to fight for his and hers honor. I see no reason why we should think that he wanted Cat more than he wanted Lady Dustin.

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Cat was going to be his wife and his honor was at stake. Even if Rickard had dragged him to be married and he loathed Cat he was forced to fight for his and hers honor. I see no reason why we should think that he wanted Cat more than he wanted Lady Dustin.

If he had fought LF for his own pride and male macho honor alone, he'd have killed LF, not spare hm as Cat asked to.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

If he had fought LF for his own pride and male macho honor alone, he'd have killed LF, not spare hm as Cat asked to.

*Male macho honor* it would had been in 21st century. In Medieval it would had been more than that. By allowing Petyr to live he proved to be just but also strong and generous. He wouldn’t had something to gain from a dead LF but a living LF would had been an example of what happens when you cross the next Lord of WF.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

*Male macho honor* it would had been in 21st century. In Medieval it would had been more than that. By allowing Petyr to live he proved to be just but also strong and companionate. He wouldn’t had something to gain from a dead LF but a living LF would had been an example of what happens when you cross the next Lord of WF.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. To me Dustin sounds like the mistress who actually believes her ex-lover's excuses on why he cano't choose her and has to marry someone else. Dustin is not an unbiased source, not if she's still hung up over it 17 years later, and someone should send her the book "he's just not that into you". 

[Yucef Menaerys]

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And as @sweetsunray pointed out upthread, Brandon had every right to challenge Rhaegar to a duel. Could he have gone about in a much more intelligent way? Absolutely. Still doesn't change the fact that Brandon calling Rhaegar to "come out and die" was totally within his rights.  

And the bold... this is something that intrigues me enormously. By all accounts, Rhaegar was an intelligent and sensible man, with a profound sense of duty. And we get this from many different characters: Selmy, Ned, Jaime etc. The only person to ever speak poorly of Rhaegar is Robert. How then, did he [apparently] make quite a few spectacularly stupid mistakes? 

But Brandon didn't challenge Rhaegar to a duel, he demanded his death, that's not thesame as demanding a fair trial by combat, instead of going to the court to seek redress like a calm and civilised man he went to the red keep and demanded to kill the heir to the iron throne! I call that treason, and as we all know treason is punishable by death, imagine someone coming to your house and demanding to kill your son, any rational person will kill him before he tries to do that. Brandon's foolishness was what started a war, if Brandon hadn't rashly done what he did then Aerys would not have demanded the heads of Ned and Robert as he would have no reason to suspect them, but Brandon's action showed that the Starks were now a threat to the crown hence why Aerys demanded Ned and his potential conspirator Robert be arrested.

What mistakes? Running off with Lyanna Stark?  What if i told you she went willingly with him.

[kissdbyfire]

29 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

But Brandon didn't challenge Rhaegar to a duel, he demanded his death, that's not thesame as demanding a fair trial by combat, instead of going to the court to seeking redress like a calm and civilised man he went to the red keep and demanded to kill the heir to the iron throne! I call that treason, and as we all know treason is punishable by death, imagine someone coming to your house and demanding to kill your son, any rational person will kill him before he tries to do that. Brandon's foolishness was what started a war, if Brandon hadn't rashly done what he did then Aerys would not have demanded the heads of Ned and Robert as he would have no reason to suspect them, but Brandon's action showed that the Starks were now a threat to the crown hence why Aerys demanded Ned and his potential conspirator Robert be arrested.

What mistakes? Running of with Lyanna Stark?  What if i told you she went willingly with him.

Brandon calling Rhaegar to "come out and die" is a challenge to a duel. Or do you actually think that by saying "come out and die" Brandon expected Rhaegar to come out and chop his own head off or something? Trial by combat has fuck all to do with Brandon/Rhaegar; trial by combat was what Rickard demanded, as was his right. And then the batshit crazy pyromaniac paranoid rapist sadistic Aerys "granted" him one, with fire as his champion. And the argument of someone coming into my home and demanding the death of my son is so preposterous I won't even bother.

And no, Brandon's foolishness didn't start the war. What started the war was batshit crazy pyromaniac paranoid rapist sadistic Aerys demanding Jon Arryn deliver him the heads of both Ned and Robert.

I actually think Lyanna went with Rhaegar of her own free will. That doesn't mean many stupid mistakes weren't made. 

[Yucef Menaerys]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Brandon calling Rhaegar to "come out and die" is a challenge to a duel. Or do you actually think that by saying "come out and die" Brandon expected Rhaegar to come out and chop his own head off or something? Trial by combat has fuck all to do with Brandon/Rhaegar; trial by combat was what Rickard demanded, as was his right. And then the batshit crazy pyromaniac paranoid rapist sadistic Aerys "granted" him one, with fire as his champion. And the argument of someone coming into my home and demanding the death of my son is so preposterous I won't even bother.

And no, Brandon's foolishness didn't start the war. What started the war was batshit crazy pyromaniac paranoid rapist sadistic Aerys demanding Jon Arryn deliver him the heads of both Ned and Robert.

I actually think Lyanna went with Rhaegar of her own free will. That doesn't mean many stupid mistakes weren't made. 

That's not a proper way to claim trial by combat, this isin't how it works, he did not lay out any charges, it wasn't even a proper trial, he didn't even wait to see what Rhaegar had to say heck he wasn't even 100% sure of the charge he was laying against Rhaegar, rhaegar could just as easily come out and ask Brandon to prove that he kidnapped his sister, he would look utterly foolish then and it would be within Rhaegar's right to arrest him and maybe even execute him there and then since he couldn't prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Rhaegar kidnapped his sister.

Actually Brandon somehow did start the war, he made the first provocation against the Crown by demanding to kill the crown prince, the Targaryens didn't make the first hostile act, thing is Aerys demanding Ned and Robert's head was a direct result of the extremely hostile acts perpitrated by memebers of house stark against the crown. Brandon knew Aerys was mad and he agitated the paranoid king by unceremoniously barging into the red keep and demanding to kill Aerys' son and heir.

I understand that you are trying to  entirely white wash the Starks but they are not without their own faults.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Yucef Menaerys said:

That's not a proper way to claim trial by combat, this isin't how it works, he did not lay out any charges, it wasn't even a proper trial, he didn't even wait to see what Rhaegar had to say heck he wasn't even 100% sure of the charge he was laying against Rhaegar, rhaegar could just as easily come out and ask Brandon to prove that he kidnapped his sister, he would look utterly foolish then and it would be within Rhaegar's right to arrest him and maybe even execute him there and then since he couldn't prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Rhaegar kidnapped his sister.

Actually Brandon somehow did start the war, he made the first provocation against the Crown by demanding to kill the crown prince, the Targaryens didn't make the first hostile act, thing is Aerys demanding Ned and Robert's head was a direct result of the extremely hostile acts perpitrated by memebers of house stark against the crown. Brandon knew Aerys was mad and he agitated the paranoid king by unceremoniously barging into the red keep and demanding to kill Aerys' son and heir.

I understand that you are trying to  entirely white wash the Starks but they are not without their own faults.

I don't know how to put this in simpler terms so I'll repeat what I said before: trial by combat has fuck all to do with Brandon/Rhaegar. And what are you on about with proof beyond a reasonable doubt? This isn't some 21st century real world courtroom or an episode of Law and Order. 

And again, no. Brandon challenged Rhaegar to a duel - that is, if events actually happened the way we're told by a very drunken captive Jaime, which we simply can't be 100% sure at this point. The war started when Aerys demanded Ned and Robert's heads, and Jon Arryn called his banners in rebellion. And if you want a trigger for the whole mess, then that trigger is Lyanna's disappearance. 

And lastly, no, you most definitely cannot claim to understand my trying to whitewash the Starks b/c that's not what I'm doing. But go right ahead with your assumptions and see if I care. Spoiler alert: 

Spoiler

I don't.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

18 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

That's not a proper way to claim trial by combat, this isin't how it works, he did not lay out any charges, it wasn't even a proper trial, he didn't even wait to see what Rhaegar had to say heck he wasn't even 100% sure of the charge he was laying against Rhaegar, rhaegar could just as easily come out and ask Brandon to prove that he kidnapped his sister, he would look utterly foolish then and it would be within Rhaegar's right to arrest him and maybe even execute him there and then since he couldn't prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Rhaegar kidnapped his sister.

Actually Brandon somehow did start the war, he made the first provocation against the Crown by demanding to kill the crown prince, the Targaryens didn't make the first hostile act, thing is Aerys demanding Ned and Robert's head was a direct result of the extremely hostile acts perpitrated by memebers of house stark against the crown. Brandon knew Aerys was mad and he agitated the paranoid king by unceremoniously barging into the red keep and demanding to kill Aerys' son and heir.

I understand that you are trying to  entirely white wash the Starks but they are not without their own faults.

Wow. You are making a lot of "solid" judgements based on broken up pieces of memory. Does that mean you think the tower of joy events as we know them are literal as well?

Trial by combat does not have any established method that we have seen. It can be called at anytime by the defendant or the accuser, and can also morph into a trial by seven during the process. It is an excuse to fight without repercussions between two, or fourteen, angry men, with maybe the trial by seven supposedly being judged by the gods instead.

If Aerys was so mad that he is agitated by words, even though his experiences should tell him better, then maybe this isn't such the great king you are making him out to be. He is dangerous and volatile.

[Yucef Menaerys]

49 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't know how to put this in simpler terms so I'll repeat what I said before: trial by combat has fuck all to do with Brandon/Rhaegar. And what are you on about with proof beyond a reasonable doubt? This isn't some 21st century real world courtroom or an episode of Law and Order. 

And again, no. Brandon challenged Rhaegar to a duel - that is, if events actually happened the way we're told by a very drunken captive Jaime, which we simply can't be 100% sure at this point. The war started when Aerys demanded Ned and Robert's heads, and Jon Arryn called his banners in rebellion. And if you want a trigger for the whole mess, then that trigger is Lyanna's disappearance. 

And lastly, no, you most definitely cannot claim to understand my trying to whitewash the Starks b/c that's not what I'm doing. But go right ahead with your assumptions and see if I care. Spoiler alert: 

  Reveal hidden contents

I don't.

 

It's very simple, Brandon was laying an accusation against Rhaegar on something he has no proof of, his sister disappeared and all of a sudden he decides without carrying out any investigation that Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar, that was a very rash decision to make and to do that against the heir to the realm could be dangerous as well, at least first make sure that Rhaegar was responsible for the kidnapping, and as I've said, how is it a trial when you just go to some random stranger and ask him for a duel? He didn't accuse Rhaegar of anything which makes him look really stupid.

Speaking of the main causative of the war you have to go back before Job arryn called his banners, why did Aerys demand Ned and Robert's head? Because there families were challenging the authority of the crown by attempting to kill the crown prince based on unfounded charges and by making alliances that could destabilise the realm and make them even more powerful than the king. Any king would take this as a threat, not to mention they (Arryn, Brandon, Rickard) know that Aerys was an unstable person prone to rash and illogical decisions, Brandon must have known the king was insane and very paranoid and then he went right up and threatened the paranoid king's son and heir, Rickard as well knew the about the madness of the king and yet he went to KL to try to rescue Brandon, a cautious man would stay behind in winterfell and try to negotiate Brandon's release instead of making himself vulnerable and appearing unprotected to a king that was obviously mad.

[Yucef Menaerys]

40 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Wow. You are making a lot of "solid" judgements based on broken up pieces of memory. Does that mean you think the tower of joy events as we know them are literal as well?

Trial by combat does not have any established method that we have seen. It can be called at anytime by the defendant or the accuser, and can also morph into a trial by seven during the process. It is an excuse to fight without repercussions between two, or fourteen, angry men, with maybe the trial by seven supposedly being judged by the gods instead.

If Aerys was so mad that he is agitated by words, even though his experiences should tell him better, then maybe this isn't such the great king you are making him out to be. He is dangerous and volatile.

Are speaking of Jaime's recounting of the events surrounding the rebellion, if so I think Jaime is a pretty reliable narrator, he has no reason to lie to Brienne, and there's nothing to show that those pieces of memoris are broken up, it seems like Jaime vividly remembers the events to me, or has anything that Jaime says or remembers about the rebellion been proven as wrong?

As I've said, that wasn't a proper trial.

I never claimed to tried to make out Aerys as a great king, he was a great man before the madness, he wanted to bring water to Dorne, build a new wall and a new capital city as well, he had every intention of being a good king, he wanted to be known as Aerys the Wise, but sadly he was taken over by a mental Iless, it's the reason why I don't like criticizing Aerys for some of the bad things he did, because I know the real young Aerys would never do that, Aerys is a victim of his own madness. And the rebels only had to wait for some little time for Rhaegar to finally carry out his coup but they couldn't wait, they should have demanded Rhaegar depose his father because everyone knows him as a great man, instead of trying to completely depose the Targaryen dynasty.

[The Fattest Leech]

47 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

Are speaking of Jaime's recounting of the events surrounding the rebellion, if so I think Jaime is a pretty reliable narrator, he has no reason to lie to Brienne, and there's nothing to show that those pieces of memoris are broken up, it seems like Jaime vividly remembers the events to me, or has anything that Jaime says or remembers about the rebellion been proven as wrong?

As I've said, that wasn't a proper trial.

I never claimed to tried to make out Aerys as a great king, he was a great man before the madness, he wanted to bring water to Dorne, build a new wall and a new capital city as well, he had every intention of being a good king, he wanted to be known as Aerys the Wise, but sadly he was taken over by a mental Iless, it's the reason why I don't like criticizing Aerys for some of the bad things he did, because I know the real young Aerys would never do that, Aerys is a victim of his own madness. And the rebels only had to wait for some little time for Rhaegar to finally carry out his coup but they couldn't wait, they should have demanded Rhaegar depose his father because everyone knows him as a great man, instead of trying to completely depose the Targaryen dynasty.

Aerys is a victim of Targ madness, which is most likely due to the dragon blood mixing, which means his coin was going to flip at any minute, and when that coin flips he is not fit to rule because he becomes a tyrant.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

It's very simple, Brandon was laying an accusation against Rhaegar on something he has no proof of, his sister disappeared and all of a sudden he decides without carrying out any investigation that Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar, that was a very rash decision to make and to do that against the heir to the realm could be dangerous as well, at least first make sure that Rhaegar was responsible for the kidnapping, and as I've said, how is it a trial when you just go to some random stranger and ask him for a duel? He didn't accuse Rhaegar of anything which makes him look really stupid.

Speaking of the main causative of the war you have to go back before Job arryn called his banners, why did Aerys demand Ned and Robert's head? Because there families were challenging the authority of the crown by attempting to kill the crown prince based on unfounded charges and by making alliances that could destabilise the realm and make them even more powerful than the king. Any king would take this as a threat, not to mention they (Arryn, Brandon, Rickard) know that Aerys was an unstable person prone to rash and illogical decisions, Brandon must have known the king was insane and very paranoid and then he went right up and threatened the paranoid king's son and heir, Rickard as well knew the about the madness of the king and yet he went to KL to try to rescue Brandon, a cautious man would stay behind in winterfell and try to negotiate Brandon's release instead of making himself vulnerable and appearing unprotected to a king that was obviously mad.

I stopped reading when I saw "trial" again in relation to Brandon and Rhaegar. Really, third strike and I'm done because clearly this isn't going anywhere. You're either deliberately misunderstanding what I've said - 3 times already - or you simply can't understand it. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. To me Dustin sounds like the mistress who actually believes her ex-lover's excuses on why he cano't choose her and has to marry someone else. Dustin is not an unbiased source, not if she's still hung up over it 17 years later, and someone should send her the book "he's just not that into you". 

I do agree that she wasn't unbiased, I am just saying that we don't know if he wanted her or not.

@The Fattest Leech and @kissdbyfire serious question guys. Why do you bother? Can't you see that is a hater and there is no way of a reasoned talk about causes and facts. The only fact is that we don't know what really happened and we only know what Jaime claimed that happened.

[Yucef Menaerys]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I stopped reading when I saw "trial" again in relation to Brandon and Rhaegar. Really, third strike and I'm done because clearly this isn't going anywhere. You're either deliberately misunderstanding what I've said - 3 times already - or you simply can't understand it. 

My apologies, I  went back and re-read what you've said it seems I've misunderstood a major point you were repeatedly making which I just ignored because I didn't understand it, so let me ask you about it, what exactly did you mean when you said "trial by combat has fuck all to do with Brandon/Rhaegar" I don't quite get it.

[Yucef Menaerys]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Aerys is a victim of Targ madness, which is most likely due to the dragon blood mixing, which means his coin was going to flip at any minute, and when that coin flips he is not fit to rule because he becomes a tyrant.

Absolutely, but I still belive that the Targaryens should continue the incest because the major reason why the dragonlords practiced incest in the first place was because they wanted to make their blood purer thereby making it easier for them and their children to bond with and ride dragon. If the Targaryens had stopped practicing incest after coming to Westeros then future Targaryens might otherwise not have been able to ride dragons due to their blood being to diluted, then the dragons will be useless since there will be no one to ride them. There's a reason Targs are different from others.

I think when Dany finally manages to take the throne she should enact laws barring any of her future descendants from sitting the throne if they are found to be insane, thus preventinh another potential Aerys 2.0 and Robert's Rebellion 2.0 as well.

[WSmith84]

4 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

I never claimed to tried to make out Aerys as a great king, he was a great man before the madness, he wanted to bring water to Dorne, build a new wall and a new capital city as well, he had every intention of being a good king, he wanted to be known as Aerys the Wise, but sadly he was taken over by a mental Iless, it's the reason why I don't like criticizing Aerys for some of the bad things he did, because I know the real young Aerys would never do that, Aerys is a victim of his own madness. And the rebels only had to wait for some little time for Rhaegar to finally carry out his coup but they couldn't wait, they should have demanded Rhaegar depose his father because everyone knows him as a great man, instead of trying to completely depose the Targaryen dynasty.

You know, I've seen you mention this before. I think you're confusing what we as readers know with what the rebels knew. The rebels knew this: Rhaegar disappeared with Lyanna, Rickard Stark's daughter and Robert's betrothed, after publicly declaring her Queen of Love and Beauty at the tournament of Harrenhal. That is an enormous slap in the face to both Houses; it's downright antagonistic. Aerys then kills Brandon (who is seeking recompense) and Rickard (who, as far as we know, is innocent of any crime). That looks like Aerys and Rhaegar are supporting each other. We as readers know that they were seriously estranged, but anyone who wasn't at court likely did not. Then, Rhaegar remains absent for the majority of the war (the war lasted around a year!) and when he finally does appear Rhaegar is fighting for his father, presumably confirming their earlier beliefs.

[Texas Hold Em]

On 6/19/2017 at 0:28 PM, Brandon Baratheon said:

Aerys took Jaime and Elia as "captives" against Tywin and Doran. But Brandon alive could be more important:

• Ned Stark couldn't take action to gather troops in North quickly.
• Stark-Tully alliance couldn't rise so easily since wedding was cancelled.

Edit: Compare it to Ned's execution and how Tywin and Tyrion reacted to it.

Rickard was already in custody.  There was no need to hold hostages.  Besides it was more entertaining to watch Brandon fight with the Lys strangulation device. 

Brandon was killed because he tried to murder a member of the ruling family.  That's all the reason needed in Westeros.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

My apologies, I  went back and re-read what you've said it seems I've misunderstood a major point you were repeatedly making which I just ignored because I didn't understand it, so let me ask you about it, what exactly did you mean when you said "trial by combat has fuck all to do with Brandon/Rhaegar" I don't quite get it.

Ok. Let's start over. Go back and read my previous replies to you and replace "fuck all" with "nothing". Hope it will become clearer now.