Jump to content

Why Aerys killed Brandon?


Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

You presume she was abducted. She might have gone willingly.

   You presume he took her as a mistress. You forget that the Targaryens could have more than one wife.

I presume nothing, except that from Brandon's perspective and pretty much everyone else, she was abducted.

And even if she went willingily it might legally still be regarded as an abduction as she was taken from her guardians who tend to be the ones who must "consent". Depending on the laws she might have been "raped" even if she totally had the hots for him, because "rape" used to mean "taken without her guardian's consent" (the guardian being father/brother/husband or son of a widow). All we know is that a woman is supposed to be able to consent to marriage, minor or adult, but even the cloaking ritual suggests that culturally a woman is seen to be under guardianship at all times (either her house's or her husband's).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have only heard about Lyanna's supposed abduction as a motive for Brandon's behaviour that then triggered Aerys' murder of Brandon. However I wonder if the Ashara-dishonor at Harrenhal may also have played a role here as a backdrop of some sort of longstanding grievance or slow-burning anger between the two men that was then exacerbated by the Lyanna incident.

This of course is only possible if either Aerys or Rhaegar or Brandon were the guy who 'dishonored' Ashara and fathered that still-born child.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Hell, Aerys had several opportunities to sabotage an alliance by becoming part of it. Engage Edmure or Benjen to Rhaenys and invite him to court, invite Rickard to sit on your council (far away from his troops and lords) etc.

There's one problem with this. A king can certainly arrange betrothals between anyone, and certainly for the children of his children as well. But this would only serve to cause estrangement between the family members, even if the king was on his right.

That's why a king has never arranged betrothals for the children of his children. Aegon V couldn't do anything when Jaehaerys II decided to marry Aerys with Rhaella, and Aegon clearly did not want this to happen, he hated incest.

Aegon IV hated Daeron II, but he never dared to use Daeron's children, because it would make things even more worse than they already were.

With that said, Aerys and Rhaegar's relationship was bad enough already, and Rhaegar took Elia to Dragonstone when they married. There he raised his family, far from the eyes of Aerys

Aerys wouldn't be able to use Rhaenys for his political purposes(even if he had any), because this would only serve to make things even more worse between Rhaegar and Aerys. In the end, it would be for Rhaegar to decide with who Rhaenys would marry, as is the right of any father in Westeros.

What Aerys could do, is to offer Viserys's hand in marriage. Tywin himself wanted Cersei to marry Viserys after the match with Rhaegar did not work. Aerys could have arranged a betrothal between Viserys and Lysa Tully, or with Janna Tyrell or Mina Tyrell, since Jon Arryn did not have a daughter and Lyanna Stark was already betrothed.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

What does this quote have to do with anything? It's Ned lamenting that he was never brought up to rule, Brandon was. Nothing more. Again, what actual evidence do you have that Robert and Rickard were plotting treason?

The woman could be Rickard's mother. But it's impossible to say.

The phrase, "it was all meant for Brandon" and "he was born to be a king's hand"  are very suspicious.  This combined with Lady Dustin's conversation with Theon are enough to cast suspicion on Rickard Stark's motives.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Not to mention many people will still think Lyanna as glorified mistress even if Rhaegar somehow pulled polygamy and announced her as second wife. Her children will be called bastards by many people

   Aegon I Targaryen, known as Aegon the Conquerer had two wives. Did anyone call them bastards? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

   They inherit directly Dragonstone, Summerhall and indirectly (rule) Westeros.

   And the Vale's children would be Arryns and he Riverrun's Tullys. :)

Elia's children would inherit Dragonstone, the ruins of Summerhall and rule Westeros. Lyanna's children would inherit nothing. Maybe the Stark-Targaryens would inherit someday (say if Elia's children were to meet an unpleasant accident) but there was no guarantee.

And yes, the Riverlands children would be Tullys and the Stormlands would be Baratheons, but they'd have Stark blood, which is a very nice status point and, supposedly, means that the North can count on both the Riverlands and Stormlands in time of war.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, HallowedMarcus said:

   Aegon I Targaryen, known as Aegon the Conquerer had two wives. Did anyone call them bastards? 

No, but Maegor was forbidden two marry two women while a Prince, as was at least one other Targaryen Prince (I forget who). It may not have been illegal for Targaryens to commit polygamy, but that doesn't mean that the lords of Westeros would accept the marriage as valid, or that they wouldn't regard the children as bastards regardless of their titles. The Targaryens didn't exactly hold the same sway that they did when Aegon landed.

4 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The phrase, "it was all meant for Brandon" and "he was born to be a king's hand"  are very suspicious.  This combined with Lady Dustin's conversation with Theon are enough to cast suspicion on Rickard Stark's motives.  

Not really. Ned is being offered the position of Hand of the King. If Brandon were still alive, it might be him receiving that offer i.e. the one who was raised to be a lord, instead of Ned. Besides, Ned's own inner thoughts show a complete absence of any plot to overthrow the Targaryens.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

   Aegon I Targaryen, known as Aegon the Conquerer had two wives. Did anyone call them bastards? 

Aegon married them simultaneously at dragonstone by following Valyria tradition before Targ switched to faith. I did not see much problem there. 

Rhaegar eloped and secretly "married" Lyanna after he married Elia for around three years,  obviously without approval from either king or Faith. Targ already followed faith for hundreds of years (Faith is obviously against polygamy). His king father, as mad as he is, has done a shame walk and swore to god that he would be loyal to his wife. So we know monogamy is quite serious even for a Targ king. Otherwise he can just marry multiple women. 

To be brief, how people thought about Anne Boylen, how people would think about Lyanna. 

Sure some people will proudly hail "princess Lyanna", but many people would still call her "northern whore of Rhaegar". 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

There's one problem with this. A king can certainly arrange betrothals between anyone, and certainly for the children of his children as well. But this would only serve to cause estrangement between the family members, even if the king was on his right.

That's why a king has never arranged betrothals for the children of his children. Aegon V couldn't do anything when Jaehaerys II decided to marry Aerys with Rhaella, and Aegon clearly did not want this to happen, he hated incest.

Aegon IV hated Daeron II, but he never dared to use Daeron's children, because it would make things even more worse than they already were.

With that said, Aerys and Rhaegar's relationship was bad enough already, and Rhaegar took Elia to Dragonstone when they married. There he raised his family, far from the eyes of Aerys

Aerys wouldn't be able to use Rhaenys for his political purposes(even if he had any), because this would only serve to make things even more worse between Rhaegar and Aerys. In the end, it would be for Rhaegar to decide with who Rhaenys would marry, as is the right of any father in Westeros.

What Aerys could do, is to offer Viserys's hand in marriage. Tywin himself wanted Cersei to marry Viserys after the match with Rhaegar did not work. Aerys could have arranged a betrothal between Viserys and Lysa Tully, or with Janna Tyrell or Mina Tyrell, since Jon Arryn did not have a daughter and Lyanna Stark was already betrothed.

 

Baelor arranged the marriage of his cousin Daeron and Mariah Martell.  So Kings have in the past arranged marriages for other family members outside of their children. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/19/2017 at 3:40 PM, HallowedMarcus said:

   Brandon Stark demanded justice because his sister had been abducted and raped (presumed by him) by Prince Rhaegar. And Lyanna Stark was betrothed to Robert Baratheon. A Sire is supposed to make justice in his domain/realm. There was no treason, he did not demand the Prince to be killed. He demanded direct combat to death with Prince Rhaegar. Don`t forget that Rhaegar was a very good swordsman and won the Harrenhal Tournament. A trial by combat is any Lord's right. Even the crazed delusional assassin Lysa Arryn (Tully) allowed the Imp a trial by combat to decide his fate. 

   The King or the Prince could also have chosen one of the Kingsguard to fight in his stead.

   Also, I have to agree there is another side of the coin. If Lyanna Stark went willingly with Rhaegar and with the consent of King married, then Brandon's demand was not just but he did not know that. The King should have him arrested, called his father Rickard Stark to King's Landing, which he did, told him what happened and had Brandon arrested for some time or keep him as a hostage. But no he declared them traitors for defending their sister/daughters integrity for being kidnapped and raped. Unbelievable!

No I am sorry but going to the king and demanding he present the prince to be brought and killed (he did intend to kill the prince if he could) was treason. Furthermore he had no proof that she didn't go willingly. Now when aery's killed rickard stark that was stupid and had no justification. So killing brandon did make sense but killing his father made none.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/19/2017 at 4:28 PM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Don't invest too much into defending Aerys II's actions. Whatever Brandon's crime might have been, the Mad King didn't stop with him, but also murdered: Jeffory Mallister, Kyle Royce, Elbert Arryn. And their fathers. And Rickard Stark. Which destroys the "Aerys was justified" argument.

yes but as for killing brandon stark it was justified which is what the thread asks. Killing brandon was completly justified but killing his father and the fathers of his companions was not and in reality what started the war. If someone had pulled that with king robert or tywin they still would have killed brandon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 20/06/2017 at 4:53 PM, WSmith84 said:

And yes, the Riverlands children would be Tullys and the Stormlands would be Baratheons, but they'd have Stark blood, which is a very nice status point and, supposedly, means that the North can count on both the Riverlands and Stormlands in time of war.

 

God point!

 

On 20/06/2017 at 5:03 PM, WSmith84 said:

No, but Maegor was forbidden two marry two women while a Prince

 

   Yes, Maegor was forbidden to take a second wife. But was not forgiven because he was a Prince and a Prince did not have the right to do so. He did not marry again because the King forbade him.

   Had the King allowed he would. :)

   A Targaryen King could take more than one wife and any male Targaryen could act the same way if the King allowed it. Therefore if the Mad King did allow or not is important.

   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, HallowedMarcus said:

A Targaryen King could take more than one wife and any male Targaryen could act the same way if the King allowed it. Therefore if the Mad King did allow or not is important.

Indeed, it is, but considering the very poor terms that Aerys and Rhaegar were on (Aerys thought Rhaegar was plotting to overthrow him) I find it highly unlikely that Aerys would give Rhaegar his blessing. He would probably have seen it as proof that the Starks were plotting with Rhaegar to overthrow him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, HallowedMarcus said:

   Yes, Maegor was forbidden to take a second wife. But was not forgiven because he was a Prince and a Prince did not have the right to do so. He did not marry again because the King forbade him.

   Had the King allowed he would. :)

   A Targaryen King could take more than one wife and any male Targaryen could act the same way if the King allowed it. Therefore if the Mad King did allow or not is important.

   

Maegor was forbidden a second wife by himself? Did Aegon or Aenys rule on that from beyond the grave?

Would explain a lot tbh

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why did Aerys execute Brandon?

Because Brandon committed an intolerable and inexcusable crime.  He rode into the Red Keep and threatened to kill the current Prince of Dragonstone.  I also suspect the Starks were already treasonous by that time.  They were plotting with the Baratheons to take down the Targaryens.  Obviously, if you believe the Starks are innocent of "southron ambitions" you and I will disagree.  Because I believe the Starks were already in bed with the Baratheons to take down the Targaryens Aerys had a right to treat Brandon and Rickard any way he pleases.  Fuck trial by combat.  Brandon threatened to kill Rhaegar in public.  No need for further fact finding.  I am sure Varys already compiled some evidence and the king's torturers got every drop of information they needed from Brandon. 

Executing Brandon by strangulation and Rickard by roasting is no worse than Stannis burning his own men for eating their dead on a march he forced them to take.  What Aerys did was perfectly fine considering the Starks were guilty of treason.  All Stannis' men did was eat the dead to keep from starvation. 

It is very reasonable to see why Aerys would want to kill Robert and Eddard.  Brandon admitted under questioning that they too were part of the plan.  The only mistake Aerys made was sending a raven to Jon Arryn.  He should have invited all of the Starks and Robert to KL and executed them all. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have thought for some time that Martin has engaged in some misdirection where Brandon is concerned.  We have only a few disparaging remarks about him from unreliable people, and Ned seemed to think highly of him.  @sweetsunray may have the right of it; that Brandon decided to seek redress personally, leaving his father with two other heirs and the ability to declare war or sue for peace.

Jaime's drunken tale to Catelyn is something else that I have serious doubts about anymore.  He claims that Brandon was shouting for Rhaegar to "come out and die", but never said that he was there or actually heard what Brandon said when he arrived in Kings Landing.  Perhaps Brandon sought redress in a calm and legal manner.  Jaime did tell Cat that Brandon was more like him than his own brother Ned, perhaps he was projecting how he would of reacted had someone kidnapped Cersei.

After all, we don't know how Brandon found out about the abduction, or why Ethan Glover was spared.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...