Who Are These Guys?

[Curled Finger]

If you have a chance check out the wiki regarding Lord Commanders of the Night's Watch. 13 are listed in the Historical Commanders section.   Among them are the Hightower who aimed to leave command of the Night's Watch to his son and the Night's King.  You can read this illustrious group's accomplishments all in a single tidy place.   What's bugging me is the descriptions.   Three LCs, Robin Hill, Tristen Mudd and Marq Rankenfell are all described as quote: "who nearly destroyed the watch when they forgot their vows in favor of their pride and ambition."  Night's King isn't even described as nearly destroying the Watch with human sacrifices and a dead chick hanging around.   There is a Rodrick Flynt who thought to make himself King Beyond The Wall along with Sleepy Jack who was late for the battle of Long Lake in being unprepared.   The point is there were some terrible LCs over the thousands of years since the NW was established.   There were some great ones, too, but they aren't bugging me.    There is no other mention of these 3 LCs.   Mudd may be an extinct house, we got nothing on bastards from the Westerlands and Rankenfell is just like my 2nd knight in the storming of the dragon pit--only mentioned this time and no tracing him anywhere from the name alone.   It's not like we have a new chapter to discuss so let's put some old mysteries to rest--or something!   What do you think of the exact description for all 3?    Is it possible they could be the Mad Axe, The Thing In the Night and/or The Rat Cook?   Is Rankenfell a football player?   Always look forward to your wild and interesting possibilities.  

[elder brother jonothor dar]

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post

 

Pride and ambition and forgetting their vows suggests it's to do with inheritance lands and titles

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

If you have a chance check out the wiki regarding Lord Commanders of the Night's Watch. 13 are listed in the Historical Commanders section.   Among them are the Hightower who aimed to leave command of the Night's Watch to his son and the Night's King.  You can read this illustrious group's accomplishments all in a single tidy place.   What's bugging me is the descriptions.   Three LCs, Robin Hill, Tristen Mudd and Marq Rankenfell are all described as quote: "who nearly destroyed the watch when they forgot their vows in favor of their pride and ambition."

 

That's merely the wiki. Written, essentially, by us, and not substantially more credible than any random post on the forum. In the books, the phrase "over the centuries certain Lords Commander, more proud than wise, forgot their vows and near destroyed us all with their ambitions" doesn't refer exclusively to those three mentioned.

If the article from the wiki bugs you, feel free to rewrite it so it reflects on the books more accurately.

[Curled Finger]

17 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post

 

Pride and ambition and forgetting their vows suggests it's to do with inheritance lands and titles

Oh sure.   TBH I grow weary of all the ambiguity.   These men are listed right along with Bloodraven and the Night's King.   I realize it's only a list of probably the only LCs mentioned.   It's just odd that they are mentioned in precisely the same way with precisely the same wording.  What is the point?   We are told about the Hoare who forsook his brother's battles to keep his station at the NW most particularly not meddling in the Southron affairs.   I will give some more thought to your rather thoughtful reply and thank you kindly for the direction. 

[Curled Finger]

13 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

 

That's merely the wiki. Written, essentially, by us, and not substantially more credible than any random post on the forum. In the books, the phrase "over the centuries certain Lords Commander, more proud than wise, forgot their vows and near destroyed us all with their ambitions" doesn't refer exclusively to those three mentioned.

If the article from the wiki bugs you, feel free to rewrite it so it reflects on the books more accurately.

Can you say "merely the wiki"?   Who knows more about this stinking story than us, brother?   I tried to search the text for exact wording to compare to the wiki, but alas, I am unable to search that wonderful tool.    Man am I having the worst time with the web lately. 

I do wish I could read the passage you pointed out.   Care to toss a book/chapter to a bugged reader?    Maybe I can gain some perspective from the book directly.   It's not the article or writing in the wiki that bugs me.   It's not knowing what these bozos did that appears to be worse than the Night's King that bugs me.  For all it's worth, I have a lot of respect for the fans and scholars who dedicate their time and talent to assembling the wiki.   

However, I do appreciate you taking the time to point it out to me.   Thankee, Sai.  

[Prof. Cecily]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Spoiler

Can you say "merely the wiki"?   Who knows more about this stinking story than us, brother?   I tried to search the text for exact wording to compare to the wiki, but alas, I am unable to search that wonderful tool.    Man am I having the worst time with the web lately.

 

I do wish I could read the passage you pointed out.   Care to toss a book/chapter to a bugged reader?    Maybe I can gain some perspective from the book directly.   It's not the article or writing in the wiki that bugs me.   It's not knowing what these bozos did that appears to be worse than the Night's King that bugs me.  For all it's worth, I have a lot of respect for the fans and scholars who dedicate their time and talent to assembling the wiki.   

However, I do appreciate you taking the time to point it out to me.   Thankee, Sai.  

You might try this resource for finding texts from ASoIaF

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Can you say "merely the wiki"?   Who knows more about this stinking story than us, brother?   I tried to search the text for exact wording to compare to the wiki, but alas, I am unable to search that wonderful tool.    Man am I having the worst time with the web lately. 

I do wish I could read the passage you pointed out.   Care to toss a book/chapter to a bugged reader?

Well, there's the neat A Search Of Ice And Fire tool. This passage, specifically, I found using one of the names as query.

The first time he had seen Castle Black with his own eyes, Jon had wondered why anyone would be so foolish as to build a castle without walls. How could it be defended?

"It can't," his uncle told him. "That is the point. The Night's Watch is pledged to take no part in the quarrels of the realm. Yet over the centuries certain Lords Commander, more proud than wise, forgot their vows and near destroyed us all with their ambitions. Lord Commander Runcel Hightower tried to bequeathe the Watch to his bastard son. Lord Commander Rodrik Flint thought to make himself King-beyond-the-Wall. Tristan Mudd, Mad Marq Rankenfell, Robin Hill . . . did you know that six hundred years ago, the commanders at Snowgate and the Nightfort went to war against each other? And when the Lord Commander tried to stop them, they joined forces to murder him? The Stark in Winterfell had to take a hand . . . and both their heads. Which he did easily, because their strongholds were not defensible. The Night's Watch had nine hundred and ninety-six Lords Commander before Jeor Mormont, most of them men of courage and honor . . . but we have had cowards and fools as well, our tyrants and our madmen. We survive because the lords and kings of the Seven Kingdoms know that we pose no threat to them, no matter who should lead us. Our only foes are to the north, and to the north we have the Wall."

 

 

And it is the one and only appearance of Marq Rankenfell in the series. (And Robin Hill and Tristan Mudd, too).

[White Ravens]

52 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

You might try this resource for finding texts from ASoIaF

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

 

A Search of Ice and Fire is a great resource.  Unfortunately, it stopped working on my computer, which is a PC running Firefox.  It does however work on my iPod running iOS but it isn't as easy to use.    Can anyone suggest why it would stop working on one device but still work another?

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, White Ravens said:

A Search of Ice and Fire is a great resource.  Unfortunately, it stopped working on my computer, which is a PC running Firefox.  It does however work on my iPod running iOS but it isn't as easy to use.    Can anyone suggest why it would stop working on one device but still work another?

I've been unable to use asearchoficeandfire on any computer or my phone for about a week.  Bummer.  Please let me know if you find out what the problem is.  I've tried in both Internet Explorer and Google but I can't get it to do anything.

[Prof. Cecily]

6 hours ago, White Ravens said:

A Search of Ice and Fire is a great resource.  Unfortunately, it stopped working on my computer, which is a PC running Firefox.  It does however work on my iPod running iOS but it isn't as easy to use.    Can anyone suggest why it would stop working on one device but still work another?

I have no problem with search and I use a PC with Firefox.

I wish I could help you- pm me any searches you need til you figure out your web woes.

[Clegane'sPup]

On 6/20/2017 at 0:15 AM, Curled Finger said:

It's not like we have a new chapter to discuss so let's put some old mysteries to rest--or something!

Har. True dat. How bout I try to spin ya some old new tinny foil bout the LC's.

What attracts me is the LC’s chain of Bloodraven ---- Qorgyle --- Mormont.

If a reader was not into Martin’s ASOIAF the reader would not know about Martin’s short stories pertaining to ASOIAF.

In the ASOIAF proper it is revealed that Brynden Rivers (BR) at the end of DwD is the name of Bran’s three eyed crow.

Maester Aemon, who is revealed as a Targ gives a couple references about BR, but there are multiple references to Qorgyle. Possibly some tinfoil as to who Halfhand is.

Five frekking books! My thought is the average person is not going to go out of their way to buy miscellaneous material so that they can make sense of Martin’s story.

This reader, me, would verra much like for Martin to finish his tale without me needing to buy complimentary merchandise.

That being said, the proof is in the pudding so to speak. Think of it this way, the non obsessive ASOIAF reader is going to attempt to read Martin's ambiguous mistake ridden books and ask WTF is going on.

When and if Martin ever releases his next two or three door stoppers  ---- I just need to STFU but I ain’t.

Let’s say I did not read Martin’s ASOIAF short stories. Clear it all from my mind.

Bloodraven is mentioned 3 times, once in Sam II FfC and twice in DwD. Brynden Rivers is mentioned once in FfC and once in DwD.

If I hadn’t read the supplementary information I would not know that BR, Brynden Rivers, is approximately 125 years of age when Bran and his companions finally reach the CotF cave.

What about Qorgyle who replaced Brynden Rivers as LC?  

Jon and Mance talk.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon I   "Very good! Yes, that was the first time. You were just a boy, and I was all in black, one of a dozen riding escort to old Lord Commander Qorgyle when he came down to see your father at Winterfell.

Gossip between Mance and Jon.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon III "When do these patrols go out? How often?"  Jon shrugged. "It changes. I've heard that Lord Commander Qorgyle used to send them out every third day from Castle Black to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, and every second day from Castle Black to the Shadow Tower.

Pod speaking to Tyrion.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion V     "Three black spiders?"     "They're scorpions, ser. House Qorgyle of Sandstone, three scorpions black on red."

Sam trying to influence the vote for Jon. Supposedly Qorgyle was chosen after BR’s disappearance.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Samwell V    This time Sam was ready. "Might you for someone else? If it was someone more suitable?"     Ser Denys considered a moment. "I have never desired the honor for its own sake. At the last choosing, I stepped aside gratefully when Lord Mormont's name was offered, just as I had for Lord Qorgyle at the choosing before that.

When Jon Snow was chosen.

 

Quote

Storm of Swords - Jon XII   "Lord Snow," said Cotter Pyke, "if you muck this up, I'm going to rip your liver out and eat it raw with onions."  Ser Denys Mallister was more courteous. "It was a hard thing young Samwell asked of me," the old knight confessed. "When Lord Qorgyle was chosen, I told myself, 'No matter, he has been longer on the Wall than you have, your time will come.' When it was Lord Mormont, I thought, 'He is strong and fierce, but he is old, your time may yet come.' But you are half a boy, Lord Snow, and now I must return to the Shadow Tower knowing that my time will never come." He smiled a tired smile. "Do not make me die regretful. Your uncle was a great man. Your lord father and his father as well. I shall expect full as much of you."

I see that the oldtimers were around when Qorgyle was chosen. I assume the oldtimers were youngsters when Bloodraven was chosen. Yet, in the five ASOIAF books Bloodraven remains a mystery.

Is Martin gonna splain alla dat ^ in a supplement? Is it relevant to ASOIAF?

Thanks for shaking some of the cobwebs loose in my befuddled confudicated mind. I thought the Qorgyle of Sandstone with its three black scorpions black on red was rather interesting considering Oberyn was fostered there.

 

[Curled Finger]

I have missed you @Clegane'sPup!   Methinks there is nothing befuddled or confudicated in your bright mind.  

I promise you Pup, there will be tons of supplemental material.    Can't wait to see what you come up with then.    Hope with me that this forum then continues to provide an invaluable resource for our studies into this amazing fantasy.  

Maybe everything is relevant to ASOIAF.  Your Qorgyle findings are so worth looking into.   I wouldn't mind hearing about Bloodraven's stint as LC from Dunk or Egg or maybe even someone from the Raven's Teeth.   Yes!   You have me sort of giddy about the whole fostering thing.   Jon Arryn's influence is apparent in Ned and Robert definitely respected the man.   TBH, I though Tywin would have been the best thing in the world for Lysa's bratty kid.   Grow that little monster up real quick.   Speaking of monsters, Sam is fostering Dalla's boy in a way.    Yronwood fostered Quentyn so this connection between Oberyn and the Qorgyles is very interesting.   Did Stannis foster Edric Storm?   These 2nd fathers impacted their wards beyond traditional primary parents.   Did Hoster Tully make Petyr Baelish this icky Little Finger?   Oh gads, tell me Mel isn't fostering Davos' son!   Rickon is being fostered somewhere--I sure hope we get to see his foster family.    We know the north clansmen provided wet nurses for Gilly's boy, but who has the care of him?   Sorry, you made me digress.  

There are plenty of mysteries that need to be solved in the material we have.   Still it will be excellent to get a little more information so we can quit speculating and get down to real solutions.   Rock on with your bad self, Pup.  

 

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I have no problem with search and I use a PC with Firefox.

I wish I could help you- pm me any searches you need til you figure out your web woes.

Do you happen to know how we can contact the webmaster at asearchoficeandfire?    I had some major problems here of all places and Ran was great helping sort it all out.   If we can get hold of this person I'm sure he/she can tell us what our problems are.   Can't donate if we can't access, right?  

[Curled Finger]

16 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Well, there's the neat A Search Of Ice And Fire tool. This passage, specifically, I found using one of the names as query.

The first time he had seen Castle Black with his own eyes, Jon had wondered why anyone would be so foolish as to build a castle without walls. How could it be defended?

"It can't," his uncle told him. "That is the point. The Night's Watch is pledged to take no part in the quarrels of the realm. Yet over the centuries certain Lords Commander, more proud than wise, forgot their vows and near destroyed us all with their ambitions. Lord Commander Runcel Hightower tried to bequeathe the Watch to his bastard son. Lord Commander Rodrik Flint thought to make himself King-beyond-the-Wall. Tristan Mudd, Mad Marq Rankenfell, Robin Hill . . . did you know that six hundred years ago, the commanders at Snowgate and the Nightfort went to war against each other? And when the Lord Commander tried to stop them, they joined forces to murder him? The Stark in Winterfell had to take a hand . . . and both their heads. Which he did easily, because their strongholds were not defensible. The Night's Watch had nine hundred and ninety-six Lords Commander before Jeor Mormont, most of them men of courage and honor . . . but we have had cowards and fools as well, our tyrants and our madmen. We survive because the lords and kings of the Seven Kingdoms know that we pose no threat to them, no matter who should lead us. Our only foes are to the north, and to the north we have the Wall."

 

 

And it is the one and only appearance of Marq Rankenfell in the series. (And Robin Hill and Tristan Mudd, too).

This is why I hate using my phone for this!   I replied to you 7 or 8 hours ago and apologize that it didn't come through.   Stupid phone.    Thank you so much for providing the text.    It really puts this concern into perspective.   You have to hand it to whomever it was authored that wiki entry--s/he stayed true to the text.   Very nice indeed!   You rock, brother.

[Prof. Cecily]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Do you happen to know how we can contact the webmaster at asearchoficeandfire?    I had some major problems here of all places and Ran was great helping sort it all out.   If we can get hold of this person I'm sure he/she can tell us what our problems are.   Can't donate if we can't access, right?  

I spoke too soon.

I can't enter asearchoficeandfire now, either!

Help!

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Do you happen to know how we can contact the webmaster at asearchoficeandfire?    I had some major problems here of all places and Ran was great helping sort it all out.   If we can get hold of this person I'm sure he/she can tell us what our problems are.   Can't donate if we can't access, right?  

Below the search results, a tiny, barely visible footer appears, with contact information:
https://www.reddit.com/user/mrdziuban
[email protected]

[Curled Finger]

@Ferocious Veldt Roarerthanks so much for the leads.  I seem to have forgotten my reddit password, but I was able to send an email off to the gmail address.   You've been a great help here.    Let's hope the webmaster reads the mail and fixes the site so we can all quote like bosses!    Again, thank you!

[Curled Finger]

21 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I spoke too soon.

I can't enter asearchoficeandfire now, either!

Help!

 

Send a letter to him.    That's all it took with Ran and he got back to me right away.    I told the webmaster I'm not the only one having the problems so hopefully they can throw a switch and fix whatever is preventing us from utilizing this most invaluable tool.  

[gregg22]

When you read the quote, it's actually not clear that those men were Lords Commander. When he mentions their names he begins talking about the commanders from the Snow gate and the Nightfort that went to war with each other. (Though it seems the Mudd line may have gone extinct during the Andal Invasion thousands of years before those  commanders fought.)

 

Also, Benjen identified the first two LCs he mentioned with the Lord Commander title, but not those three. 

[Prof. Cecily]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Send a letter to him.    That's all it took with Ran and he got back to me right away.    I told the webmaster I'm not the only one having the problems so hopefully they can throw a switch and fix whatever is preventing us from utilizing this most invaluable tool.  

Good advice. Thanks!