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Euron Greyjoy needs a army


LordImp

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3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Haven't looked into Euron much yet in that regard.

But thinking about the "krakens, dragons and sphinxes"... A sphinx asks riddles. So, the combo of the three "animals" is a type of riddle. Isn't there someone nicknamed the sphinx? And a "sphinx" is a lion with a human head and breasts if female. You could regard Cersei as a sphinx.

Some altogether new things to consider.  You're still the best ever.  Thanks!  

It appears we may have a riddle on our hands here.  I've long thought these deformed Targ babies may be sphinxes.  If we have reanimated corpses of humans and beasts, roaming spirits of the kings of winter and resurrected dead in the riverlands why not an army of long dead (?) never born sphinxes?

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15 hours ago, LordImp said:

Euron is Euron , there is no one like him . He is mad and evil and in the Forsaken chapter he pictures himself as a god . And who knows what he truly wants? I will not be suprised if he actually wants the long night . 

How he will deal with the Others. I think Euron wants to become the new god . But he is of course going to fail at some point and I 'm pretty sure he is dead when the Others starts to conquer. How the Others fits into his  plan I have  no idea . 

Euron is the kind of guy who would love a world in chaos. So it's not so crazy to think that he wants everything to burn. 

That's exactly what I think he's striving for as well, to become a god. I for one don't think he's mad, I mean this is a story set in a fantasy world where gods could exist. Don't get me wrong I still think in a lot of ways Euron is off his rocker but there does seem to be a method to his madness, and if he could pull it off then maybe he will ascent to godhood or use whatever arcane magic he knows to conquer the Seven Kingdoms. I think maybe his diabolical plan is to help the Others get through the Wall and kill virtually everyone in the Seven Kingdoms. Maybe he is in league with them and wants to become one of them like the Night King, or he actually has a way of defeating them which they will put into action once they've softened up the kingdoms enough to make them easy pickings for his meager force. It could involve getting himself a dragon, who knows.

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10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

mythical" creatures

I have also tought about Euron commanding actual mythical creatures. But what creatures? Real sphinxes , I just dont see that happening. 

 

6 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Unsullied

I have tought of this aswell. If the krakens , dragons and sphinxes are metaphors for armies then the unsullied can fit the dragon part.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Hightowers

The Hightowers is a good bet. As you said the Hightowers will rather join Euron than risk loosing wealth.

If the Euron-Dany thing does not happen then Cersei and the Hightowers are indeed Eurons best hope. 

With the wealth of Hightower , Arbor and Cersei he can afford some sellswords aswell. Though how many companies are left to hire? Everyone is with either Dany , Aegon or Stannis. 

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If Euron's role was planned from the start - or at least from the time when Dany had her visions in the House of the Undying in Book 2 - then one would think that his role would be significant enough to at least warrant a vision alongside the Mummer's Dragon and the King with the Blue Eyes who Casts No Shadow.

So I'm thinking that if Euron's sub-plot was not a last minute contrivance from George, then he might be represented by the Stone Beast Rising from the Smoking Tower Breathing Shadow Fire. The fact that Euron's plot seems to be moving towards Oldtown, with a focus on the magic contained in the Hightower, seems to bolster this idea somewhat. Might he unlock some type of magic that awakens something of great power for him after he has attacked Oldtown?

He needs something, else he really doesn't warrant the page time that is spent on him. One of Dany's juvenile dragons really won't cut it. He either needs a fully grown ancient Dragon, or else some other kind of power to change the equation for him.

Frankly, the idea of him still marrying Cersei, engaging in all kinds of mainland warfare in alliance with the Lannister forces, engaging Dany's fleet on the way to Westeros and all of that BEFORE Dany lands in King's Landing seems to not fit into the remaining timeline of the books. Not if we are only talking about three more books. Let alone just two more books.

What about all the other plotlines that need to be covered in those books? Dany's campaign through Essos to Volantis, Aegon's rise, Sansa's arc, Arya's return, the Jaime/Brienne story, let alone the entire Northern arc involving Bran, Jon, Stannis, Rickon and the like. And all of that before the Others actually start invading, which will require an entire book in itself to resolve.

I just don't see time for intricate shenanigans involving Euron and Cersei. He needs to reach his apex after the Oldtown raid. There is no further time for buildup for him involving allying and marrying Cersei.

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17 minutes ago, Kaibaman said:

That's exactly what I think he's striving for as well, to become a god. I for one don't think he's mad, I mean this is a story set in a fantasy world where gods could exist. Don't get me wrong I still think in a lot of ways Euron is off his rocker but there does seem to be a method to his madness, and if he could pull it off then maybe he will ascent to godhood or use whatever arcane magic he knows to conquer the Seven Kingdoms. I think maybe his diabolical plan is to help the Others get through the Wall and kill virtually everyone in the Seven Kingdoms. Maybe he is in league with them and wants to become one of them like the Night King, or he actually has a way of defeating them which they will put into action once they've softened up the kingdoms enough to make them easy pickings for his meager force. It could involve getting himself a dragon, who knows.

Again, George has repeatedly said that gods are not going to show up in this series.

Euron has magical powers but there is no hint whatsoever that you can become a god in a series where there are no gods. At least not as characters.

And there is also no hint that Euron is in league with the Others. There are hints that Euron is a failed or twisted skinchanger but that's something different. And sure, considering Euron's powers he might be able to challenge the Others and deal them some rather severe blows if his magics are strong. We will see the scope of his powers when he deals with the Redwyne fleet.

21 minutes ago, LordImp said:

The Hightowers is a good bet. As you said the Hightowers will rather join Euron than risk loosing wealth.

If the Euron-Dany thing does not happen then Cersei and the Hightowers are indeed Eurons best hope. 

It could be both, depending how Dany's stories unfold. All the ideas of people to ally with her - Doran, Aegon, Euron - are now either completely dead or an option for the distant future. Daenerys Targaryen is in the Dothraki Sea, not on her way to Westeros. And the people fighting for supremacy there have to make their alliances now, not in the next year.

And this is doubly true for Euron. He has begun his campaign with the intention to go to Slaver's Bay. That didn't happen. Now it is quite clear that Victarion is also not going to bring Dany to him. Euron's enemies are regrouping and he has to continue his war or risk losing everything. If cannot make new alliances he won't get what he wants.

And if Cersei is done and Dany willing to become his husband after all when she finally comes to Westeros he could still marry. A very unlikely scenario in my opinion but not impossible.

21 minutes ago, LordImp said:

With the wealth of Hightower , Arbor and Cersei he can afford some sellswords aswell. Though how many companies are left to hire? Everyone is with either Dany , Aegon or Stannis. 

There are about forty free companies in the Disputed Lands. We know hardly a dozen by name. There are many men he could recruit. Stannis might take some who might be in the vicinity of Braavos and Pentos. People usually forget or don't realize that the Yunkish envoys only got as far as Volantis. They did not push on to the Disputed Lands, the heartlands of the sellsword companies. The companies that are now in Slaver's Bay are either there because they already were there (Second Sons and Stormcrows) or because they were in the Volantis area and hired there by the Yunkish envoys (Long Lances, Company of the Cat, Windblown).

Euron is also very likely to win the allegiance of most of the independent pirates in the Stepstones after he deals with the Redwynes. He is a pirate himself, he knows how to deal with such men. Aurane Waters is very likely to join him as well.

14 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So I'm thinking that if Euron's sub-plot was not a last minute contrivance from George, then he might be represented by the Stone Beast Rising from the Smoking Tower Breathing Shadow Fire. The fact that Euron's plot seems to be moving towards Oldtown, with a focus on the magic contained in the Hightower, seems to bolster this idea somewhat. Might he unlock some type of magic that awakens something of great power for him after he has attacked Oldtown?

There are no hints in that direction. Euron has no personal interest in Oldtown. He only hangs out where he is right now because his foolish Ironborn didn't want to follow him to Slaver's Bay. And his objective is quite clear - the Iron Throne and absolute power over everybody in Westeros.

He has no need of magical artifacts aside from the ones he already has. He is a sorcerer himself and apparently knows how to work a very powerful spell based on blood magic. That's what he prepares in 'The Forsaken'.

14 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

He needs something, else he really doesn't warrant the page time that is spent on him. One of Dany's juvenile dragons really won't cut it. He either needs a fully grown ancient Dragon, or else some other kind of power to change the equation for him.

Not really. He has Valyrian armor. He doesn't need anything else. If there is a character capable of killing a dragon it is Euron. And he most likely will do that or at least try to do that when Dany and her dragons do not join him. 

He isn't after an ancient dragon or a huge dragon. He is aware that a marriage with the Mother of Dragons and controlling one or more dragons is all he needs to take the Iron Throne. He can be both charming and ruthless and with the help of Daenerys he could have gotten many Targaryen loyalists on his side.

That is not going to work now, especially not since Aegon is there and Dany not yet coming. So he has to try something else.

14 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Frankly, the idea of him still marrying Cersei, engaging in all kinds of mainland warfare in alliance with the Lannister forces, engaging Dany's fleet on the way to Westeros and all of that BEFORE Dany lands in King's Landing seems to not fit into the remaining timeline of the books. Not if we are only talking about three more books. Let alone just two more books.

The number of books are irrelevant. The story counts. And in the story George is writing we will now see a war in Westeros involving Euron, Aegon, Cersei, the Tyrells, and possibly even the Vale, the Riverlands, etc. That should be the main topic of TWoW, and possibly even the book following that since the story is not exactly going to progress all that far in light of the fact that there are so many POVs. There is no reason to believe Euron is not set up as a major antagonist for the good guys, especially Daenerys, and to work as such he has to acquire a significant amount of power. He is a main character of this series, and has been build up as such since ACoK.

14 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

What about all the other plotlines that need to be covered in those books? Dany's campaign through Essos to Volantis, Aegon's rise, Sansa's arc, Arya's return, the Jaime/Brienne story, let alone the entire Northern arc involving Bran, Jon, Stannis, Rickon and the like. And all of that before the Others actually start invading, which will require an entire book in itself to resolve.

Sure, that will have to be covered, too. Which is the main reason why there can't be just two books. This won't be wrapped up as clumsily as the show.

14 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I just don't see time for intricate shenanigans involving Euron and Cersei. He needs to reach his apex after the Oldtown raid. There is no further time for buildup for him involving allying and marrying Cersei.

There is no reason to believe there will be an Oldtown raid. And even if there is one that is not going to prevent him from striking a deal with Cersei. The enemy of your enemy is your friend. And Euron is going to be the enemy of both the Tyrells and Aegon (and even Daenerys, if she doesn't marry him). Cersei is his natural ally. 

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Thank you @Deepbollywood Motte for answering Alleras (aka Sarella Sand) is referred to as a sphinx. I knew it was someone in the prologue of aFfF in Oldtown, but not sure anymore whether it was Alleras or Lazy Leo out of the top of my head. There you go: Sarella-Alleras: a riddle.

38 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

It appears we may have a riddle on our hands here.  I've long thought these deformed Targ babies may be sphinxes.  If we have reanimated corpses of humans and beasts, roaming spirits of the kings of winter and resurrected dead in the riverlands why not an army of long dead (?) never born sphinxes?

Did a quick search on sphinxes:

The first sphinxes mentioned are Valyrian sphinxes at the doors of the small council. Eddard, Sansa and Tyrion notice them. Tyrion rest his hand on one of them at some point.

Then you've got the prologue in aFfC with Alleras the Sphinx, nicknamed so by Lazy Leo (see I knew Leo came into it somehow).

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It had been Lazy Leo who dubbed Alleras "the Sphinx." A sphinx is a bit of this, a bit of that: a human face, the body of a lion, the wings of a hawk. Alleras was the same: his father was a Dornishman, his mother a black-skinned Summer Islander. His own skin was dark as teak. And like the green marble sphinxes that flanked the Citadel's main gate, Alleras had eyes of onyx.

Overall, the Prologue imo serves to introduce Alleras to us, who later turns out to be one of the Sand Snakes. Pate describes Alleras quite a lot, and plenty of characters ask Alleras's opinion on stuff. The chapters immediately following the prologue are the Prophet (Aerion's chapter where he calls for the Kingsmoot that will end up making his abuser brother Euron king), and then Hotah's chapter with Doran and the introduction of the other Sand Snakes.

Anyway, the prologue is where the riddle-speak begins.

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"Is this a riddle?" Roone wanted to know. "Sphinxes always speak in riddles in the tales."

In one of Samwell's later chapters we learn that in one of his ramblings, Aemon says that the sphinx isn't the riddler, but the riddle.

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Even when he did recall, his talk was all a jumble. He spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer, of a glass candle that could not be lit and eggs that would not hatch. He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant. (aFfC, Samwell IV)

This seems to be Aemon correcting Roone. Where Roone serves to remind us of the association between sphinxes and riddles, Aemon clarifies that we should not necessarily be trying to figure out what Alleras means or says, but who he is and what his significance may be. This "riddle" is important, because when Sam meets Alleras we get several repeats of the same words.

 
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"An acolyte. Alleras, by some called Sphinx."
The name gave Sam a jolt. "The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler," he blurted. "Do you know what that means?"
"No. Is it a riddle?"[...]
[...] The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler. Could Maester Aemon have meant this Sphinx? (aFfC, Samwell V)

 

 
So thrice we get "the sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler". Just so we readers don't forget that one ;) and don't mistake sphinxes for riddlers. Sam ends up telling all about what happened at the Wall and beyond to Alleras, except meeting Bran and helping him through the Black Gate and the baby swap, including the last days with Aemon (a dragon) and "she" ends up taking him to Marwyn. Aemon talked about how the dragon needs 3 heads, and he's too old, and glass candles and sphinxes being the riddle, not the riddler. In the prologue they talked about the rumors of Dany and her 3 dragons, Alleras saying "the dragon has 3 heads" (that's when the riddle talk comes up), and Lazy Leo saying the glass candles are burning.
 
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Alleras listened intently. He blinked from time to time, but he never laughed and never interrupted. When Sam was done he touched him lightly on the forearm with a slim brown hand and said, "Save your penny, Sam. Theobald will not believe half of that, but there are those who might. Will you come with me?" [...]
[...]Leo laughed, but before he could reply the door behind him opened. "Get in here, Slayer," growled the man in the doorway. "And you, Sphinx. Now."
"Sam," said Alleras, "this is Archmaester Marwyn." (aFfC, Samwell V)

 

 
Alleras metaphorically "opens doors" for Sam in the chapter. She leads him to the right person and ensures that both the SLayer and Marywn are introduced. Now the first association we had in the series about sphinxes was not "the riddle" but as guardians of the door in the room of the Small Council. What guards the gates of the Citadel? Sphinxes!
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The gates of the Citadel were flanked by a pair of towering green sphinxes with the bodies of lions, the wings of eagles, and the tails of serpents. One had a man's face, one a woman's. (aFfC, Samwell V)

In that same chapter, we also learn how Ironborn have tried to use deception to burn the port once they were inside the gates of Oldtown. They conquered a Tyroshi trader, used the dyes to dye their beards green and purple, but they met with an Oldtown ship whose oarmaster's wife is Tyroshi and so he spoke to them in Tyroshi, to which the Ironborn could say nothing, and thus were caught.

 
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The captain of the Huntress was a tall man in a smoke-grey cloak with a border of red satin flames. He brought his galley in alongside the Cinnamon Wind, raised his oars, and shouted that he was coming aboard. As his crossbowmen and Kojja Mo's archers eyed each other across the narrow span of water, he crossed over with half a dozen knights, gave Quhuru Mo a nod, and asked to see his holds. Father and daughter conferred briefly, then agreed.
"My apologies," the captain said when his inspection was complete. "It grieves me that honest men must suffer such discourtesy, but sooner that than ironmen in Oldtown. Only a fortnight ago some of those bloody bastards captured a Tyroshi merchantman in the straits. They killed her crew, donned their clothes, and used the dyes they found to color their whiskers half a hundred colors. Once inside the walls they meant to set the port ablaze and open a gate from within whilst we fought the fire. Might have worked, but they ran afoul of the Lady of the Tower, and her oarsmaster has a Tyroshi wife. When he saw all the green and purple beards he hailed them in the tongue of Tyrosh, and not one of them had the words to hail him back."
Sam was aghast. "They cannot mean to raid Oldtown." (aFfC, Samwell V)

 

 
What is Euron seeking in Oldtown? Sure for the Ironborn he can just say it's military strategy and for plunder, but he's a collector of stuff (including sphinxes)
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Euron had seduced them with his glib tongue and smiling eye and bound them to his cause with the plunder of half a hundred distant lands; gold and silver, ornate armor, curved swords with gilded pommels, daggers of Valyrian steel, striped tiger pelts and the skins of spotted cats, jade manticores and ancient Valyrian sphinxes [...] (aFfC, The Reaver)

I'd say Euron wants to get into the Citadel and acquire himself a glass candle. Looking into fires and drinking the shade of the evening is all well and good, especially for visions of what may come to pass, but it doesn't seem as if the seer has much control over it. Meanwhile Qauithe's warning about the ones coming to Dany (to seek and lust for dragons) and at the time she gives it, suggests that glass candles give you an enormous vision and likely control of where and who you watch, but always in the present. That's why she ends up warning Dany about JonCon and Aegon coming imo - she doesn't know they will go no farther than Volantis and then sail for Westeros. She only knows that they mean to unite with her and at the time of her warning are starting going downstream on the Rhoyne. Apparently Marwyn was overheard the conversation Sam had with Alleras, but he fears he might have missed some bits and pieces there.

 
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The archmaester peeled a sourleaf off a bale, shoved it in his mouth, and began to chew it. "Tell me all you told our Dornish sphinx. I know much of it and more, but some small parts may have escaped my notice."
He was not a man to be refused. Sam hesitated a moment, then told his tale again as Marywn, Alleras, and the other novice listened. (aFfC, Samwell V)

 

 
So, I'd say glass candles give you the power to look what is happening somewhere in Essos or watch any person you're curious after, but only in "real time" (the present when watching). And Euron wants one (or two or three). But for that he needs to get beyond the Citadel's gates. And Alleras/Sarella I think will be an important guardian of the glass candles, especially because sourleaf is a bad omen imo of the character's fate: several sourleaf eaters have died (such as Yoren and Mistress Heddle of the Crossroads Inn). The red sourleaf smile is the smile of death, parallel to Robert's bloody red smile on his deathbed). Emmon Frey is a sourleaf eater, and the more confident speculation and hints suggest a retaking of Riverrun (and thus Emmon dying). And one of the Second Sons that Tyrion sees is another sourleaf eater. I don't think Marwyn will get far. I wouldn't be surprised if Euron catches himself a Swan ship.
 
We also have seen how Euron uses people. Lazy Leo is one of Marwyn's students,but obviously not one of the most trusted acolytes there. Leo is a mean spirited, malicious guy who openly says the glass candles are burning. He's staring into a candle flame when Sam arrives at the rookery, with the Sphinx asking him whether he's looking into the fire to know his destiny or his death. Leo quips he's looking at "naked women". Imo he doesn't see anything in the real candle, but he knows Alleras's secret through the glass candle. He's definitely set up to be a betrayer. Oh and his father is the commander of the City Watch of Oldtown, and they're Tyrells of a secondary branch. And we just know how nasty guys from a secondary branch can be selfish opportunists for power, which is exactly what Euron used with the bastard daughter on the Shield Islands.
 
Now notice that the guardian sphinxes of the Citadel gates are of a different gender: a male and a female. And then in aDwD, we get this in Andalos while Tyrion rides with Illyrio on the Valyrian road.
 
 
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The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragon's body and a woman's face.
"A dragon queen," said Tyrion. "A pleasant omen."
"Her king is missing." Illyrio pointed out the smooth stone plinth on which the second sphinx once stood, now grown over with moss and flowering vines. "The horselords built wooden wheels beneath him and dragged him back to Vaes Dothrak."
That is an omen too, thought Tyrion, but not as hopeful. (aDwD, Tyrion II)

 

 

Ok, so it's not a lion's body, but a dragon's body here, and it has much more to do with an allusion to Viserys having been taken to Vaes Dothrak and die there, with only the dragon queen remaining, and how Aegon doesn't unite with Dany later in the book. But it might also be linked to a male and female guardian in general, with Alleras actually being the female sphinx. If Marwyn does get taken by Euron and get killed, I'd say the sole guardian of the glass candle left, who'd want it not to fall in the wrong hands is Alleras. So, going back to Euron needing "sphinxes"... he needs the sphinxes of the gates of the Citadel to open the doors for him.

 

 

 

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While I was reading your posts, I had a vision where George died before finishing Winds and we spended our entire lives talking here about this.

I really like Euron, I hope him to marry Dany, though I know it's unlikely. Some theories on this topic are pretty good, but since I have no idea what Euron is going to do, I will just pray for Winds of Winter this year or the next.

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Euron does indeed need military support.... Once he has crushed the Redwyne fleet he will take the Arbor and an insane amount of wealth. ... the Hightowers bend the knee.

But Euron's natural ally is Cercei.  If she is not going to die she must look for other allies. Lady of Casterly Rock, the richest person in Westeros who still commands a vast army of men if somebody gets around to marshal them.

And if Tommen and Myrcella happen to die soon She will want to see the world burn as much as Euron,  They would be the ideal couple.

Yeah, this is what i saw in answer to, "where is all this cercei business going?"  - - Lost her cool navy upgrade to defection, ....is crazy..... will need anti- Aegon bolstering / rescue,  would want to get magic on her side for a change, complains about the lack of real men in the capital / jilted by Jaime.

8 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

 a "sphinx" is a lion with a human head and breasts if female. You could regard Cersei as a sphinx.

I think the swing to cercei comes after Euron has first "faithfully" given Daenerys a try and she shoots him down, having too recently done the sham marriage song and dance, and she sees through Euron with Vic's help, whether he makes it out of the east alive or not.  Of course, with it costing all parties including a broken arrow dragon theft as part of the madness there.

I see the kraken dragon sphinx arrangement as Hers ultimately, plus dragonstone.  The Asha ironborn will purge themselves of Euron , Sam will somehow rekindle sanity within the citadel.   Aegon gets KL?  Why not.  Sets him up as a solid competitor, better drama.

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3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

In that same chapter, we also learn how Ironborn have tried to use deception to burn the port once they were inside the gates of Oldtown. They conquered a Tyroshi trader, used the dyes to dye their beards green and purple, but they met with an Oldtown ship whose oarmaster's wife is Tyroshi and so he spoke to them in Tyroshi, to which the Ironborn could say nothing, and thus were caught.

That's the Ironborn passing the time and provoking the Hightowers. They cannot really hope to take the city with just some men on a ship sneaking into the harbor. Oldtown is the second largest city of the Seven Kingdoms, it's City Watch alone might consist of half or a third of Euron's entire forces and those are not all the armed House Hightower commands.

Euron may still be able to sack Oldtown but he could never hope to hold and he would lose thousands of men in such an attempt, men he needs to keep his campaign alive. Losing so many men is too high a price for some magical trinkets.

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What is Euron seeking in Oldtown? Sure for the Ironborn he can just say it's military strategy and for plunder, but he's a collector of stuff (including sphinxes).
I'd say Euron wants to get into the Citadel and acquire himself a glass candle. Looking into fires and drinking the shade of the evening is all well and good, especially for visions of what may come to pass, but it doesn't seem as if the seer has much control over it. Meanwhile Qauithe's warning about the ones coming to Dany (to seek and lust for dragons) and at the time she gives it, suggests that glass candles give you an enormous vision and likely control of where and who you watch, but always in the present. That's why she ends up warning Dany about JonCon and Aegon coming imo - she doesn't know they will go no farther than Volantis and then sail for Westeros. She only knows that they mean to unite with her and at the time of her warning are starting going downstream on the Rhoyne. Apparently Marwyn was overheard the conversation Sam had with Alleras, but he fears he might have missed some bits and pieces there.

Euron doesn't search for anything in Oldtown. That is implicitly confirmed in 'The Forsaken' when Euron told Aeron that they were on the way to his dragon queen. That was when the Reader had not yet forced Euron to cancel that mission and Euron had not sent Victarion off to Slaver's Bay.

Oldtown is no priority of Euron's. And if the man has Valyrian armor he can also have some glass candles. The warlocks could have had some. In fact, there are very subtle clues in ADwD that Euron might be influencing Daenerys' dreams with a glass candle. Remember that dream she has of having sex with Hizdahr which doesn't go all that well?

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We also have seen how Euron uses people. Lazy Leo is one of Marwyn's students,but obviously not one of the most trusted acolytes there. Leo is a mean spirited, malicious guy who openly says the glass candles are burning. He's staring into a candle flame when Sam arrives at the rookery, with the Sphinx asking him whether he's looking into the fire to know his destiny or his death. Leo quips he's looking at "naked women". Imo he doesn't see anything in the real candle, but he knows Alleras's secret through the glass candle. He's definitely set up to be a betrayer. Oh and his father is the commander of the City Watch of Oldtown, and they're Tyrells of a secondary branch. And we just know how nasty guys from a secondary branch can be selfish opportunists for power, which is exactly what Euron used with the bastard daughter on the Shield Islands.

Lazy Leo has no reason to betray anyone. If Euron wanted to steal himself some glass candles he would send the Faceless Man he used to murder Balon. We don't know who or where this guy is but it is quite clear that you don't get away from Euron Greyjoy. And if there is a betrayer of sorts among Sam's new gang it is Jaqen-Pate, another Faceless Man, not Leo Tyrell.

Leo and his father Ser Moryn Tyrell are part of the ruling class of Oldtown. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose if they ally themselves with Euron. He is not going to make them the Lords of Oldtown and even if he did - Oldtown is a city, and the Lords of the Reach would quickly put them down after Euron has gone.

Not to mention that the Tyrell clan seems to be both pretty close and friendly with each other. And from Yandel we know that this extends to their in-laws and peers. Lord Hightower is Mace's father in law.

1 hour ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Yeah, this is what i saw in answer to, "where is all this cercei business going?"  - - Lost her cool navy upgrade to defection, ....is crazy..... will need anti- Aegon bolstering / rescue,  would want to get magic on her side for a change, complains about the lack of real men in the capital / jilted by Jaime.

Cersei is either going to die soon or she will flee the capital and hook up with Euron. An escape overland back to Casterly Rock is essentially impossible. She would have to cross the Riverlands (which are full of rebels) and Mace would always have the time and resources to send men to pursue and drag her back. She can't escape that way. She has to go by ship. And even if she did not intend to ally with Euron she is certainly not going to get to Lannisport. She has to pass the Arbor and the waters controlled by the Ironborn. And she is smart enough to know that the enemy of her enemy can be her friend.

She is a woman and alone, without friends or family. That is a very bad situation in that world. She cannot even count on her Lannister cousins in Casterly Rock or the Lords of the West. Would they be so keen to begin another campaign against the Tyrells just because she commands it? It is possible but one would not want to bet on that. But if she comes to Lannisport with a new royal husband and a large armada of her own things should go very different.

And keep in mind how devastating, destructive, and terrible Qyburn and Euron could be if they work together. That will be a sight to behold...

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28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That's the Ironborn passing the time and provoking the Hightowers. They cannot really hope to take the city with just some men on a ship sneaking into the harbor. Oldtown is the second largest city of the Seven Kingdoms, it's City Watch alone might consist of half or a third of Euron's entire forces and those are not all the armed House Hightower commands.

Euron may still be able to sack Oldtown but he could never hope to hold and he would lose thousands of men in such an attempt, men he needs to keep his campaign alive. Losing so many men is too high a price for some magical trinkets.

Euron doesn't search for anything in Oldtown. That is implicitly confirmed in 'The Forsaken' when Euron told Aeron that they were on the way to his dragon queen. That was when the Reader had not yet forced Euron to cancel that mission and Euron had not sent Victarion off to Slaver's Bay.

Oldtown is no priority of Euron's. And if the man has Valyrian armor he can also have some glass candles. The warlocks could have had some. In fact, there are very subtle clues in ADwD that Euron might be influencing Daenerys' dreams with a glass candle. Remember that dream she has of having sex with Hizdahr which doesn't go all that well?

Lazy Leo has no reason to betray anyone. If Euron wanted to steal himself some glass candles he would send the Faceless Man he used to murder Balon. We don't know who or where this guy is but it is quite clear that you don't get away from Euron Greyjoy. And if there is a betrayer of sorts among Sam's new gang it is Jaqen-Pate, another Faceless Man, not Leo Tyrell.

Leo and his father Ser Moryn Tyrell are part of the ruling class of Oldtown. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose if they ally themselves with Euron. He is not going to make them the Lords of Oldtown and even if he did - Oldtown is a city, and the Lords of the Reach would quickly put them down after Euron has gone.

Not to mention that the Tyrell clan seems to be both pretty close and friendly with each other. And from Yandel we know that this extends to their in-laws and peers. Lord Hightower is Mace's father in law.

Cersei is either going to die soon or she will flee the capital and hook up with Euron. An escape overland back to Casterly Rock is essentially impossible. She would have to cross the Riverlands (which are full of rebels) and Mace would always have the time and resources to send men to pursue and drag her back. She can't escape that way. She has to go by ship. And even if she did not intend to ally with Euron she is certainly not going to get to Lannisport. She has to pass the Arbor and the waters controlled by the Ironborn. And she is smart enough to know that the enemy of her enemy can be her friend.

She is a woman and alone, without friends or family. That is a very bad situation in that world. She cannot even count on her Lannister cousins in Casterly Rock or the Lords of the West. Would they be so keen to begin another campaign against the Tyrells just because says commands it? It is possible but one would not want to bet on that. But if she comes to Lannisport with a new royal husband and a large armada of her own things should go very different.

And keep in mind how devastating, destructive, and terrible Qyburn and Euron could be if they work together. That will be a sight to behold...

Lord Varys

With regard to this and your previous post. I'm not against the idea of Euron and Cersei teaming up. In fact, I think they make a rather good fit. I just don't think you can ignore the reality of the timeline, both in-universe and in terms of the reality of the number of books that are left.

I know you love to say that the story will dictate the number of books left, and not the other way around. But if that were the case Arya would have time to complete her training, Daenerys would have time for her dragons to grow to mature size, Daenerys would spend another 2 books at least finishing her conquest of Essos, Cersei would have more time to slowly let King's Landing descend into chaos, and generally fewer parts of the story would feel as rushed as it currently does.

The truth is, we aren't going to see another 4 books. 3 more books is the maximum we can expect, and even that seems somewhat like wishful thinking at this point in time. You yourself have agreed that the story is likely to progress far less in Winds of Winter than many of the more optimistic posters predict. Maybe a third of the book will be taken up by the battles and other plot bits that were shifted from Dance.

Arriane and Doran's alliance with Aegon needs to play out, Aegon needs to capture King's Landing, Sansa's story has to move forward, so does the Jaime/Brienne thread and the general Riverlands plot. Then you have Daenerys's entire plot in Essos, which surely has to be covered extensively. Not to mention the entire Northern plotline covering Jon, Davos, Stannis and Bran at a minimum.

And on top of that we have Euron's campaign in the Summer Sea, which will take a number of chapters to complete too.

In short, we are unlikely to see resolutions of even all of the above plot aspects by the end of Winds. Where will time be found for Cersei to flee King's Landing - which is not likely to happen before Aegon takes the city at the end of the book, link up with Euron, then travel all the way back to Casterly Rock to press her claim and raise a Lannister army, and then to have that army march off to engage the Tyrells or Aegon in the Reach?

There simply is no time for that. Especially as this will be a side plot that delays the main storyline of Daenerys, the North and the other main characters even further.

The timing of a Cersei Euron team up just seems difficult to fit in and make it work. Maybe you can suggest a sensible order of events that includes such an alliance, but I find it very difficult to do in just 3 remaining books.

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As I see it Euron will do like Hugh Hammer did in the Dance. Manouver himself and then use his possession of a dragon to gather a force of disreputable men to his cause. The Ironmen are nothing but a steeping stone for Euron and if they all died, well, no loss from his POV.

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22 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I know you love to say that the story will dictate the number of books left, and not the other way around. But if that were the case Arya would have time to complete her training, Daenerys would have time for her dragons to grow to mature size, Daenerys would spend another 2 books at least finishing her conquest of Essos, Cersei would have more time to slowly let King's Landing descend into chaos, and generally fewer parts of the story would feel as rushed as it currently does.

No, that isn't the case. George's comments on the scrapping of the Gap indicate that the problem with that was that he was unable to make sense of the concept that in some stories (especially Jon's) pretty much nothing happened in the last five years on the front of the Others.

The plot lines are supposed to converge and George is going to tell the story in real time, without allowing the passage of a lot of time in a single book. The concept that the characters are supposed to age while the story progresses has been dead a long time. There were some hints in that direction in the first book but those are actually the weakest sections of the entire series when the chapters more or less feel like snapshots with a lot of gaps between them.

What is most likely going to necessitate quite a few books to finish the series is simply the scope of this story.

22 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The truth is, we aren't going to see another 4 books. 3 more books is the maximum we can expect, and even that seems somewhat like wishful thinking at this point in time. You yourself have agreed that the story is likely to progress far less in Winds of Winter than many of the more optimistic posters predict. Maybe a third of the book will be taken up by the battles and other plot bits that were shifted from Dance.

That is my guess, yes, but this doesn't restrict the number of books the author is going to need to finish it. We'll only know how many there will be when the series is finished, not before. But it is pretty clear that the story is nowhere close to the end. If Dany had arrived in Westeros or the Others had made their move to attack the Wall (or prepared to do that) in ADwD we could all agree that the ending was approaching. Then TWoW could have been the book where we see the power of the Others and cruelty and horror of winter, something that has been announced from the very beginning, and the final book for the great climax and resolution at the end.

But we are not there yet. And it is unlikely that we will get there in the next book. Hopefully we'll see more of the Others in the next book, especially insofar as background information is concerned, but the main stories that are going to be continued there will be those of mundane politics. But I really hope we'll get a closure on the Bolton story at Winterfell with Stannis there so that remainder of the Northern story can actually focus on preparation of the Wall for the Others.

22 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

And on top of that we have Euron's campaign in the Summer Sea, which will take a number of chapters to complete too.

Euron's POV right now is Aeron. If he survives he most likely will leave Euron and the Silence, meaning that we'll lose him as POV for Euron (and if he dies he out of the game, too, for obvious reasons). We could have Samwell as another POV covering the naval battle in light of the fact that some Hightower ships will be involved, too. Sam could be on one of those for some reason.

But afterwards Euron's story will be told through rumors and reports until such a time as a POV joins him again. And that POV could be Cersei.

22 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

In short, we are unlikely to see resolutions of even all of the above plot aspects by the end of Winds. Where will time be found for Cersei to flee King's Landing - which is not likely to happen before Aegon takes the city at the end of the book, link up with Euron, then travel all the way back to Casterly Rock to press her claim and raise a Lannister army, and then to have that army march off to engage the Tyrells or Aegon in the Reach?

I'm not sure Aegon is only going to take KL at the end of the book. It could be around the middle or after two thirds. It depends how quickly things unravel in KL. If the murders of Kevan and Pycelle work as they should Cersei could be forced to flee the city long before Aegon actually arrives simply because of her paranoia and active Tyrell moves against her. Mace will claim all the power now and he knows what Cersei tried to do to Margaery. He will kill her if he can. And there is essentially nothing to stop him.

Cersei might still go through her trial-by-combat (if that's not canceled) and then use an opportunity to flee. There is nothing left for her in that city and she most likely will be very afraid for her children, too. She already thinks Tyrion plans to kill Tommen, too.

I don't know what is going to happen to Myrcella - is she going to get to KL, will she be taken by the Golden Company on the road? - but Tommen could very easily be accidentally killed during Cersei's escape. That would be a huge tragedy and could help to drive Cersei even further over the edge.

Say, we get two Cersei chapters in KL (one covering the aftermath of the murders and a second for the trial-by-combat) and then a third, which covers her escape. Then she is gone for a couple of chapters and shows up in the second half of the book when she presents herself to Euron on the Arbor. How things go from there will depend on how they intend to strike against their enemies. This is difficult to predict since we have no idea what Aegon is going to do once he has KL or how they might think to challenge him. A journey to Lannisport is going to take some time but Euron is a sorcerer. He can summon winds, most likely.

But yeah, it is difficult to guess how things will go and how important this or that character/plot will be. No character is likely going to have as many chapters as Dany/Jon/Tyrion got in ADwD because there will be so many more POVs in that book and we have no idea which plots will focus most prominently (aside from the two battles in the beginning which seem to be covered by quite a few pages).

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1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

With regard to this and your previous post. I'm not against the idea of Euron and Cersei teaming up.

Me neither.

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Arriane and Doran's alliance with Aegon needs to play out, Aegon needs to capture King's Landing, Sansa's story has to move forward, so does the Jaime/Brienne thread and the general Riverlands plot. Then you have Daenerys's entire plot in Essos, which surely has to be covered extensively. Not to mention the entire Northern plotline covering Jon, Davos, Stannis and Bran at a minimum.

And on top of that we have Euron's campaign in the Summer Sea, which will take a number of chapters to complete too.

I expect Samwell's POV chapter after the Aerion one that was read last year on Balticon. And I think the Oldtown-Euron stuff will take at the most 2 chapters. Everything is already set up, the bow strung. 

Aegon's doing a blitzkrieg in the Stormlands almost. And let's not forget that the Crownlands are already set up to hold a blockade on KL with Bronn in Stokeworth and the ward of Rosby holding Rosby, and the likelihood that there has been a deception going on at Dragonstone.

I'd say that Cersei flees KL and Aegon is welcomed before the end of tWoW. I think that certainly is possible.

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2 hours ago, Tygett Blackwood said:

While I was reading your posts, I had a vision where George died before finishing Winds and we spended our entire lives talking here about this.

Spoiler

I really like Euron, I hope him to marry Dany, though I know it's unlikely. Some theories on this topic are pretty good, but since I have no idea what Euron is going to do, I will just pray for Winds of Winter this year or the next.

 

 

It's not the worst case scenario by any means.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:
Spoiler

 

That's the Ironborn passing the time and provoking the Hightowers. They cannot really hope to take the city with just some men on a ship sneaking into the harbor. Oldtown is the second largest city of the Seven Kingdoms, it's City Watch alone might consist of half or a third of Euron's entire forces and those are not all the armed House Hightower commands.

Euron may still be able to sack Oldtown but he could never hope to hold and he would lose thousands of men in such an attempt, men he needs to keep his campaign alive. Losing so many men is too high a price for some magical trinkets.

Euron doesn't search for anything in Oldtown. That is implicitly confirmed in 'The Forsaken' when Euron told Aeron that they were on the way to his dragon queen. That was when the Reader had not yet forced Euron to cancel that mission and Euron had not sent Victarion off to Slaver's Bay.

Oldtown is no priority of Euron's. And if the man has Valyrian armor he can also have some glass candles. The warlocks could have had some. In fact, there are very subtle clues in ADwD that Euron might be influencing Daenerys' dreams with a glass candle. Remember that dream she has of having sex with Hizdahr which doesn't go all that well?

Lazy Leo has no reason to betray anyone. If Euron wanted to steal himself some glass candles he would send the Faceless Man he used to murder Balon. We don't know who or where this guy is but it is quite clear that you don't get away from Euron Greyjoy. And if there is a betrayer of sorts among Sam's new gang it is Jaqen-Pate, another Faceless Man, not Leo Tyrell.

Leo and his father Ser Moryn Tyrell are part of the ruling class of Oldtown. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose if they ally themselves with Euron. He is not going to make them the Lords of Oldtown and even if he did - Oldtown is a city, and the Lords of the Reach would quickly put them down after Euron has gone.

Not to mention that the Tyrell clan seems to be both pretty close and friendly with each other. And from Yandel we know that this extends to their in-laws and peers. Lord Hightower is Mace's father in law.

Cersei is either going to die soon or she will flee the capital and hook up with Euron. An escape overland back to Casterly Rock is essentially impossible. She would have to cross the Riverlands (which are full of rebels) and Mace would always have the time and resources to send men to pursue and drag her back. She can't escape that way. She has to go by ship. And even if she did not intend to ally with Euron she is certainly not going to get to Lannisport. She has to pass the Arbor and the waters controlled by the Ironborn. And she is smart enough to know that the enemy of her enemy can be her friend.

She is a woman and alone, without friends or family. That is a very bad situation in that world. She cannot even count on her Lannister cousins in Casterly Rock or the Lords of the West. Would they be so keen to begin another campaign against the Tyrells just because she commands it? It is possible but one would not want to bet on that. But if she comes to Lannisport with a new royal husband and a large armada of her own things should go very different.

 

And keep in mind how devastating, destructive, and terrible Qyburn and Euron could be if they work together. That will be a sight to behold...

After having read that chapter The Forsaken, I spend a fair amount of time trying to repress any internal speculation about what those two would accomplish.

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I'll just throw in that beyond a "Team Evil" idea I can't see Cersei teaming up with just about anyone. Cersei seems to dominering and wanting to be in control of events and people for her to be able to cooperate with anyone, least of all someone as ambitious as Euron. While Euron could probably play Cersei for a while if he really wanted, Cersei's insane paranoia and demands are likely to drive off Euron by force if not by something else and make her impossible to puppeteer for very long by anyone holding formal power. I can still recall that Cersei thought that she could play Mace to not do anything while his daughter was executed and that he would retain his loyalty to King Tommen after that. That's how she gets along with any ally of hers.

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24 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I'll just throw in that beyond a "Team Evil" idea I can't see Cersei teaming up with just about anyone. Cersei seems to dominering and wanting to be in control of events and people for her to be able to cooperate with anyone, least of all someone as ambitious as Euron. While Euron could probably play Cersei for a while if he really wanted, Cersei's insane paranoia and demands are likely to drive off Euron by force if not by something else and make her impossible to puppeteer for very long by anyone holding formal power. I can still recall that Cersei thought that she could play Mace to not do anything while his daughter was executed and that he would retain his loyalty to King Tommen after that. That's how she gets along with any ally of hers.

Her march changed him. She must have understood now who and what she actually is. A woman that is going to be raped and killed by her enemies if she makes any mistake. She won't do that stupid stuff again she did in AFfC. But she has no friends in KL left. She cannot do anything there.

And once her children are all dead she might change her entire outlook on life, too. She will have nobody she is afraid for, greatly reducing her paranoia and increasing her determination to destroy all her enemies.

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4 hours ago, LordImp said:

I have never tought of the Oldtown Tyrells as possible allies to Euron. It makes sense . 

Me neither, until I looked at the 'sphinx' mentioning and the structuring of the aFfC Prologue versus Samwell's 5th chapter. Lazy Leo is such a nasty guy... he's got to fit in somehow, no? He'll probably first blow Alleras's cover. I think that looking into a candle and his comment that he's looking for naked women already sets it right up. I now expect her cover to be blown in the first Samwell chapter. That removes the Sphinx out of the way to protect the glass candle. So, then it's Samwell versus nasty Lazy Leo and Pate (who's actually FM) for the first Sam chapter. The second chapter is set later, with Sam trying to earn his link, along with news of Euron against the Redwyne fleet and that not going well for the Redwyne's. And then just at the end of that chapter, the Ironborn managed to get inside the port walls and Oldtown is attacked. Marwyn won't make it far imo. I don't think we'll even see him alive again, alas. I really wanted to see more of him, beyond the brief exchange we've got with him.

On the one hand I think it's impossible for Sam to acquire sufficient links for a chain in the amount of time we can expect to pass. And we have foreshadowing of Sam likely ending up a prisoner of Euron. But when I think of that glass candle, and the maester making ritual, I could see Sam going through that, albeit not the proper way, far more likely the happenstance way - while a prisoner of Euron with the glass candle. If I think about that, I could see George write Sam being able to lit it and see stuff, and realize its potential. It would be an awesome thing for the NW to possess, no? Wouldn't it be awesome if he managed to steal it, from Euron, who stole it from the Citadel?

Having instant views of whomever and wherever in the whole of Planetos in the present time seems quite an important and powerful artifact to have. You know where your enemies are, your allies. No need of ravens, delays...  Of course a guy like Euron who sailed to Valyria to get himself a dragon horn and

Spoiler

an armor made of Valyrian steel

and picked up Qartheen Warlocks and drinks shade of the evening would want a glass candle. He doesn't care about the Ironborn and other people, or how many die for him to acquire things that make him more powerful than anyone else. He sends a large fleet all the way to Slaver's Bay with a dragon horn to acquire Dany and a dragon. They're all replacable to him. Heck, he doesn't even care about being King of the Iron Islands. He wants the world, not a driftwood crown, and people are expendable. Imo Euron is the type of guy who believes that if he's a dragonrider, with a glass candle and that armor of his, he'll be able to force as well as sway people to become his army anyhow. There are a lot of bastard daughters and second tier cousins that are jealous of their far more powerful parents or lieges who believe that Euron will make them share in the power if they just turn their coat.

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11 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And then just at the end of that chapter, the Ironborn managed to get inside the port walls and Oldtown is attacked. Marwyn won't make it far imo. I don't think we'll even see him alive again, alas. I really wanted to see more of him, beyond the brief exchange we've got with him.

Marwyn will make it to Daenerys. That is essentially confirmed. George has already written chapters in which he arrived at Meereen. Those were parts of the Meereenese knot struggle. He changed the time line so that he isn't there yet but he will arrive there. Anything else would make no sense. This character isn't Maester Kedry, it is a man that has been mentioned as early as AGoT.

And if Leo wants a glass candle he can just take one. There are quite a few of them there, and it is quite likely that the Hightowers also have some. Leo is their kin and the son of the Lord Commander of the City Watch. He should be able to go anywhere in Oldtown and steal anything he wants if he so chooses. Who is going to investigate such a crime? The invisible and omnipotent secret police of the Citadel or the City Watch of Oldtown which is headed by Leo's father?

But again, Euron most likely already has a glass candle. The glass candles in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker were burning when Dany left Qarth, confirming that there are glass candles in Qarth. Since it seems that Pyat Pree and his buddies brought Euron Dragonbinder and Valyrian armor it is quite likely that they also brought glass candles to him.

Since he has no deep interest in Oldtown there is no reason to believe he wants those stupid candles they are having.

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(Uhhh, after posting this i reposted it as its own topic.  Might as well, haven't done that in a while.)

Re: # of books left

Sure we're supposed to think there's only a couple, three more......but doesn't EVERYONE'S internal sense of pacing tell us there's actually 6 more, Jordan style?

Re:  Sphinx is the Riddle

This big meaningful line refers to the big meaningful sphinx statues  at the citadel.  It does not refer to Alleras whom Aemon never met nor knew she existed.  The sphinx means the hidden agenda of the citadel & maesters.

 Literally, when they were built, the sphinx statues "probably" meant that the wise men of the citadel stood guard over the secret of how Man might jump into the deep end of the magic pool to bring about real change, and not just the "change" Obama spoke of.  This magic so deeply mingles that it mangles the people who partake.  Mentally, i mean, but also maybe their try at having kids then produces occasional chimera creatures, unviable fetus horrors, etc. 

This is the trick to reaching out and forming a bond with magic and magical beasts.   The craft practiced by the Children, the dragonriders, the skinchangers.  It changes you is the problem the citadel observed, until they concluded the best use of this secret was to never use it, guard it rather into extinction, and up with science!- -the better more stable hope for Man and Womankind.  Which is right.   But also sometimes lethally wrong for our species, like now, when, on a magical planet, one must sometimes use magic to survive a magic onslaught.   the same way vegans must eventually admit they're now anemic and should seek a source of those nutrients too long missing from their bodies.   The maesters have made us a very strong mundane society in most respects  but have deSphinxed us, and Jon & Sam would suggest we're grown rickety in our society's immune defense against the 1000 year storm we now face.  

We need to reSphinxify and boost our magical involvement, multiply the number of magic users and yes maybe also the number of people strangely sacrificed to curry favor with magical forces, if that's what's necessary.  Reforge the original dragon pacts that gave rise to the targ dynasty, maybe this time opening them up for additional families, or reaching out to additional creatures and forces beyond the familiar dragons and wolves.   This could throw the gates open for meaningful human participation in the long winter's coming supernatural struggle.  A difference maker?  Like when Jesu opened Judaism to the gentiles to get a booming influx of converts.   Just the type of flood of change the citadel fears.   So they stand guard over the magic dam too severely instead, letting nothing leak out..... until their stingy ways tempt someone like Euron to come break the dam.  

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