Euron Greyjoy needs a army

[Kaibaman]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, George has repeatedly said that gods are not going to show up in this series.

Euron has magical powers but there is no hint whatsoever that you can become a god in a series where there are no gods. At least not as characters.

And there is also no hint that Euron is in league with the Others. There are hints that Euron is a failed or twisted skinchanger but that's something different. And sure, considering Euron's powers he might be able to challenge the Others and deal them some rather severe blows if his magics are strong. We will see the scope of his powers when he deals with the Redwyne fleet.

It seems to me the fact that he has been collecting holy men from faiths around the world, does have some kind of symbolic or rather sacrilegious point to it. It could be that he really is mad and has probably been led by sinister forces to unleash a great evil on the land. I still think that perhaps like Dany he visited the House of the Undying, went through their spiritual quest and came out wrong. Its probably because of the Undying Ones that he has such prophetic abilities, has a supply of Shade of the Evening and warlocks as prisoners. It could also be that even if he himself is not in league with the Others, that the Undying Ones were and just as they had hoped to use Dany as their agent of destruction, they succeeded in turning Euron into one.

[LordImp]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Euron has magical powers but there is no hint whatsoever that you can become a god in a series where there are no gods. At least not as characters.

I think Euron wants to become the new god . Sure there are no gods , but that dosen't mean that Euron won't try to become one . 

I think Euron is one of the few maybe even the only one that knows the truth about the gods . They are nothing else than human creations . The gods are actually just something humans use to explain magic , something they dont understand . 

So a Euron with magic might use this to eventually turn himself into a god in the eyes of the people . With complete mastery of magic people might think of him as a god . 

To summon up. No there are  no gods and you can't become a god. But you can become a god in the eyes of humans because of magic . So I think Euron wants to master every magic there is and then be worshipped as a god. He knows the truth about religion and he will use this as to make a religion based on himself . 

[LordImp]

5 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

As I see it Euron will do like Hugh Hammer did in the Dance. Manouver himself and then use his possession of a dragon to gather a force of disreputable men to his cause. The Ironmen are nothing but a steeping stone for Euron and if they all died, well, no loss from his POV.

Agree. This is probably the way it will go.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Kaibaman said:

It seems to me the fact that he has been collecting holy men from faiths around the world, does have some kind of symbolic or rather sacrilegious point to it. It could be that he really is mad and has probably been led by sinister forces to unleash a great evil on the land.

Those men seem to be the blood sacrifice ingredients to the powerful spell Euron is going to work to destroy the Redwyne fleet.

More often than not such men have magical powers - many red priests do, the warlocks do, even some septons do. And in addition Euron also seems to force them to drink shade of the evening, strengthening whatever powers and potential they might have.

But the most important sacrifices seem to be Euron's own blood - Aeron and his unborn child by Falia Flowers. Those are the sacrifices that will seal the deal. And perhaps Aeron isn't even necessary. He may still get away. The leather stripes are getting wet, and leather stretches when it gets wet. Aeron could wiggle out of his bonds before he is killed, and if the Drowned God is with him (as he was back during Balon's Rebellion) he could survive and wash up at some shore.

People tend to over-interpret Aeron's visions. He gets very afraid whenever Euron talks to him, and his blasphemy triggers his visions. There might be some images about the future there but they could all also just be images of Aeron's fear. Fear that his brother is really going to defeat the various gods, etc. After all, he sees Euron is collecting holy men/priests, and he certainly is aware that he must have a reason for that.

2 minutes ago, LordImp said:

I think Euron wants to become the new god . Sure there are no gods , but that dosen't mean that Euron won't try to become one . 

I think Euron is one of the few maybe even the only one that knows the truth about the gods . They are nothing else than human creations . The gods are actually just something humans use to explain magic , something they dont understand . 

So a Euron with magic might use this to eventually turn himself into a god in the eyes of the people . With complete mastery of magic people might think of him as a god . 

To summon up. No there are  no gods and you can't become a god. But you can become a god in the eyes of humans because of magic . So I think Euron wants to master every magic there is and then be worshipped as a god. He knows the truth about religion and he will use this as to make a religion based on himself . 

If that's his goal then he is not doing a lot to accomplish that goal. He talks big behind closed doors when his men don't see the contempt he feels for them but he isn't really worshiped yet by any of his men. Sure, he might become some sort of living god in the eyes of his followers if his spell works marvelously and crushes hundreds of war galley in one swift stroke. That would be an incredible demonstration of power.

But it will only have a big effect on the population at large if there are survivors who carry the message to Oldtown and elsewhere. That is why I think those Hightower ships won't be targeted by the spell. They will get away and then Oldtown is very likely to bend the knee if Euron demands it and offers them a good deal.

2 minutes ago, LordImp said:

Agree. This is probably the way it will go.

Euron isn't Hugh Hammer. He is more like some sort of dialed-up version of Maegor the Cruel. He doesn't need a dragon to be powerful or dangerous. He will take what he wants and crush any resistance he meets. He is not a moron who thinks a dragon makes him powerful, nor is ever going to serve somebody. He is a king already.

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Then you've got the prologue in aFfC with Alleras the Sphinx, nicknamed so by Lazy Leo (see I knew Leo came into it somehow).

Overall, the Prologue imo serves to introduce Alleras to us, who later turns out to be one of the Sand Snakes. Pate describes Alleras quite a lot, and plenty of characters ask Alleras's opinion on stuff. The chapters immediately following the prologue are the Prophet (Aerion's chapter where he calls for the Kingsmoot that will end up making his abuser brother Euron king), and then Hotah's chapter with Doran and the introduction of the other Sand Snakes.

Anyway, the prologue is where the riddle-speak begins.

In one of Samwell's later chapters we learn that in one of his ramblings, Aemon says that the sphinx isn't the riddler, but the riddle.

This seems to be Aemon correcting Roone. Where Roone serves to remind us of the association between sphinxes and riddles, Aemon clarifies that we should not necessarily be trying to figure out what Alleras means or says, but who he is and what his significance may be. This "riddle" is important, because when Sam meets Alleras we get several repeats of the same words.

So thrice we get "the sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler". Just so we readers don't forget that one and don't mistake sphinxes for riddlers. Sam ends up telling all about what happened at the Wall and beyond to Alleras, except meeting Bran and helping him through the Black Gate and the baby swap, including the last days with Aemon (a dragon) and "she" ends up taking him to Marwyn. Aemon talked about how the dragon needs 3 heads, and he's too old, and glass candles and sphinxes being the riddle, not the riddler. In the prologue they talked about the rumors of Dany and her 3 dragons, Alleras saying "the dragon has 3 heads" (that's when the riddle talk comes up), and Lazy Leo saying the glass candles are burning.

 

What is Euron seeking in Oldtown? Sure for the Ironborn he can just say it's military strategy and for plunder, but he's a collector of stuff (including sphinxes)

I'd say Euron wants to get into the Citadel and acquire himself a glass candle. Looking into fires and drinking the shade of the evening is all well and good, especially for visions of what may come to pass, but it doesn't seem as if the seer has much control over it. Meanwhile Qauithe's warning about the ones coming to Dany (to seek and lust for dragons) and at the time she gives it, suggests that glass candles give you an enormous vision and likely control of where and who you watch, but always in the present. That's why she ends up warning Dany about JonCon and Aegon coming imo - she doesn't know they will go no farther than Volantis and then sail for Westeros. She only knows that they mean to unite with her and at the time of her warning are starting going downstream on the Rhoyne. Apparently Marwyn was overheard the conversation Sam had with Alleras, but he fears he might have missed some bits and pieces there.

So, I'd say glass candles give you the power to look what is happening somewhere in Essos or watch any person you're curious after, but only in "real time" (the present when watching). And Euron wants one (or two or three). But for that he needs to get beyond the Citadel's gates. And Alleras/Sarella I think will be an important guardian of the glass candles, especially because sourleaf is a bad omen imo of the character's fate: several sourleaf eaters have died (such as Yoren and Mistress Heddle of the Crossroads Inn). The red sourleaf smile is the smile of death, parallel to Robert's bloody red smile on his deathbed). Emmon Frey is a sourleaf eater, and the more confident speculation and hints suggest a retaking of Riverrun (and thus Emmon dying). And one of the Second Sons that Tyrion sees is another sourleaf eater. I don't think Marwyn will get far. I wouldn't be surprised if Euron catches himself a Swan ship.

Ok, so it's not a lion's body, but a dragon's body here, and it has much more to do with an allusion to Viserys having been taken to Vaes Dothrak and die there, with only the dragon queen remaining, and how Aegon doesn't unite with Dany later in the book. But it might also be linked to a male and female guardian in general, with Alleras actually being the female sphinx. If Marwyn does get taken by Euron and get killed, I'd say the sole guardian of the glass candle left, who'd want it not to fall in the wrong hands is Alleras. So, going back to Euron needing "sphinxes"... he needs the sphinxes of the gates of the Citadel to open the doors for him.

 

 

 

All really good stuff for a lady who is too busy with essays.  You are a treasure, Sweetsunray.  Just a few thoughts...

It's not confirmed that Alleras is Sarella.   Rereading all your sphinx/riddle quotes I tend to think it's all about Alleras' real identity.   She's on the side of the rebels.   I wouldn't be surprised to see her earn all her links then come out.  I'm certain this has something to do with Oberyn, and possibly Doran's long game.  Equal pay for equal work/education as it were.  Our Alleras' motives are still unknown.   We do however, know what her half sisters are about and I wouldn't expect her to be far from the root of their thinking.  At this point it is all a riddle. 

In our tale there is a very special type of sphinx:  The Valyrian Sphinx.   It is of course, a dragon's body or wings or some damned thing.  So while I really enjoy your immediate jump to Cersei as a regular sphinx which fits very nicely if Aeron's hallucination is metaphorical, there are other types of sphinxes.   That's all.   There are real kraken.  What are these twisted winged Targ babies if not Valyrian sphinxes?   Dragons are real.  Which takes us all the way back around to the riddle of the sphinx. 

Now you've done a nice job establishing the sphinxes as guardians.  I'm with you that far, but fall short of understanding why he would need the literal sphinxes at the Citadel.   Do the sphinxes literally open the doors?   Or is it possible he actually needs Alleras to work the glass candles?  That never cross my radar until I read your list of things Euron collects.  Marwyn would be a nice addition.  

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm with you that far, but fall short of understanding why he would need the literal sphinxes at the Citadel.  Do the sphinxes literally open the doors?

It's a metaphor to me that he needs passage through. No, don't think those sphinxes operate a mechanism. They might, but doesn't seem like it from the text.

 

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

It's not confirmed that Alleras is Sarella. 

Oh, I know. But the widow's peak, Dornish + Summer Islander parentage, and Doran referencing a Sand Snake being at Oldtown is enough for me. I really don't think George will invent another character in tWoW aside from Alleras in Oldtown to reveal that this new character is actually Sarella and that he "fooled us" with Alleras.

That sourleaf eating dwarf of the Faith with bulbous nose that Brienne meets in Duskendale, who tells her about "a fool being fooled" in Maidenpool, is not confirmed to be the sparrow dwarf with bulbous nose whose head was shopped off for Cersei when some murderers met him on the road to King's Landing. And the likelihood that we'll ever read a confirmaton for that is nill. Still, I don't think the sourleaf eating dwarf with bulbous nose who was a brother and intended to go to King's Landing will suddenly pop up alive in KL after all. Do you?

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

What are these twisted winged Targ babies if not Valyrian sphinxes?

I agree you could see them as Valyrian sphinxes.

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Or is it possible he actually needs Alleras to work the glass candles?  That never cross my radar until I read your list of things Euron collects.  Marwyn would be a nice addition.  

That's what I'm thinking - it's not enough to just own a glass candle. You need someone who shows you how they work or who can work them. Might be that Euron only needs to be taught and can do it himself. If he has sorcerer abilities, he might learn to operate it himself, and then could discard the (half)maester who taught him.

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I wouldn't be surprised to see her earn all her links then come out. 

I hope she does, but I think there is a good chance that George will have her exposed. I suspect he needs the exposing of Alleras as Sarella and thereby not getting her chain, though she probably has earned all the links, for another character in the books. It wouldn't surprise me at all, if the maesters discuss another case of a woman who pretended to be a man in order to earn herself a chain a few decades ago, with the reveal that Alleras is Sarella. Lazy Leo reads like a character set up for us to hate, but he still needs to actually do something for us readers to think "you little shit". Betraying that Alleras is a woman would just do the trick, no?

Quote

I'm certain this has something to do with Oberyn, and possibly Doran's long game.

Agreed. Might have to do with the use of glass candles. Oberyn learned magic, I asumme from Marwyn. And Marwyn might have remained in contact with Oberyn and told him of the glass candles burning. Sending a Sand Snake to Marwyn under the pretext of earning her chain to use the candle to get present day info on what's happening at some places in the world and update Oberyn (before his death) and then Doran would help... If Sarella saw the events in Mereen with Quentyn in the glass candle, then it wouldn't take months for Doran to learn of his son's death by Dany's dragons.

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

This big meaningful line refers to the big meaningful sphinx statues  at the citadel.  It does not refer to Alleras whom Aemon never met nor knew she existed.  The sphinx means the hidden agenda of the citadel & maesters.

I disagree that it doesn't refer to Alleras.

You are correct that Aemon never met "her", and I think you have a point that Aemon would have been talking about the sphinxes at the gates most likely. But on a meta-level it does refer to Alleras.

Example: Sansa isn't talking about Joffrey being a bastard when she says he's nothing like King Robert, and yet unwittingly she hit the nail on the head, and Ned Stark realized the meta-clue - that Joffrey wasn't Robert's son.

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It's a metaphor to me that he needs passage through. No, don't think those sphinxes operate a mechanism. They might, but doesn't seem like it from the text.

 

Oh, I know. But the widow's peak, Dornish + Summer Islander parentage, and Doran referencing a Sand Snake being at Oldtown is enough for me. I really don't think George will invent another character in tWoW aside from Alleras in Oldtown to reveal that this new character is actually Sarella and that he "fooled us" with Alleras.

That sourleaf eating dwarf of the Faith with bulbous nose that Brienne meets in Duskendale, who tells her about "a fool being fooled" in Maidenpool, is not confirmed to be the sparrow dwarf with bulbous nose whose head was shopped off for Cersei when some murderers met him on the road to King's Landing. And the likelihood that we'll ever read a confirmaton for that is nill. Still, I don't think the sourleaf eating dwarf with bulbous nose who was a brother and intended to go to King's Landing will suddenly pop up alive in KL after all. Do you?

I agree you could see them as Valyrian sphinxes.

That's what I'm thinking - it's not enough to just own a glass candle. You need someone who shows you how they work or who can work them. Might be that Euron only needs to be taught and can do it himself. If he has sorcerer abilities, he might learn to operate it himself, and then could discard the (half)maester who taught him.

I hope she does, but I think there is a good chance that George will have her exposed. I suspect he needs the exposing of Alleras as Sarella and thereby not getting her chain, though she probably has earned all the links, for another character in the books. It wouldn't surprise me at all, if the maesters discuss another case of a woman who pretended to be a man in order to earn herself a chain a few decades ago, with the reveal that Alleras is Sarella. Lazy Leo reads like a character set up for us to hate, but he still needs to actually do something for us readers to think "you little shit". Betraying that Alleras is a woman would just do the trick, no?

Agreed. Might have to do with the use of glass candles. Oberyn learned magic, I asumme from Marwyn. And Marwyn might have remained in contact with Oberyn and told him of the glass candles burning. Sending a Sand Snake to Marwyn under the pretext of earning her chain to use the candle to get present day info on what's happening at some places in the world and update Oberyn (before his death) and then Doran would help... If Sarella saw the events in Mereen with Quentyn in the glass candle, then it wouldn't take months for Doran to learn of his son's death by Dany's dragons.

Sweetsunray

I like your speculation. I guess I would just find it disappointing if the ultimate prize Euron is after in Oldtown turns out to be a measly glass candle. I guess I was hoping for something a bit more significant.

But maybe George spins it that the glass candle provides Euron with some major benefits that I'm not thinking of right now. But other than being a source of knowledge of things happening in far off places, it seems kind of limited to me. And if Martin's purpose was really to get Euron a plot device by which he can have knowledge of distant events that he would otherwise not have, well, why the need to go through the whole Ironborn invasion of Oldtown plot to get there? After all, he gave Euron a magical Dragonhorn and a suit of Valyrian armour for free. It would have been just as easy to give him a glass candle along with those two already impressive items.

That's why I think that whatever he is seeking in Oldtown needs to be something more significant than that.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Sweetsunray

I like your speculation. I guess I would just find it disappointing if the ultimate prize Euron is after in Oldtown turns out to be a measly glass candle. I guess I was hoping for something a bit more significant.

But maybe George spins it that the glass candle provides Euron with some major benefits that I'm not thinking of right now. But other than being a source of knowledge of things happening in far off places, it seems kind of limited to me. And if Martin's purpose was really to get Euron a plot device by which he can have knowledge of distant events that he would otherwise not have, well, why the need to go through the whole Ironborn invasion of Oldtown plot to get there? After all, he gave Euron a magical Dragonhorn and a suit of Valyrian armour for free. It would have been just as easy to give him a glass candle along with those two already impressive items.

See above. He most likely already has one of those. There were glass candles in Qarth that burn when Dany leaves, and Euron's Valyrian armor and Dragonbinder both most likely come from the Qartheen he captured, not from Valyria itself. If he had been there he would have reacted differently when asked by the Reader, and he most likely would have found glass candles there, too, if he could find Valyrian armor there (which is supposed to insanely costly and rare). Apparently not even the Targaryens had a set of Valyrian armor, meaning that only the wealthiest and most powerful dragonlords or sorcerer princes would have had those.

The best explanation for Euron's powerful magical arsenal right now is that the warlocks took all the magical artifacts they had on the ship they took to find and punish Daenerys, including Valyrian armor, Dragonbinder, and some glass candles.

Quote

That's why I think that whatever he is seeking in Oldtown needs to be something more significant than that.

There is one significant item in Oldtown that is interesting. The book 'Blood and Fire or The Death of Dragons' Tyrion recalls in ADwD. It is most likely this very book Jaqen-Pate has been sent to steal from the vaults of the Citadel. This would be the reason why he needed an archmaester's key.

But Euron does not want to kill the dragons. He wants to control them. There is essentially no chance that Jaqen-Pate works for Euron. He is there either on behalf of the House of Black and White (who knew or foresaw that the dragons would come back and intend to ensure that Valyria's remnants stay there) or he is working on behalf of another as of yet unknown faction.

Euron may come around to intend to kill the dragons but only when it comes clear that Dany and her people won't join him. And right that isn't even clear yet.

And again, there is no hint that Euron himself cares about Oldtown all that much or is particularly interested in things that might be found there. He wanted to go to Daenerys. He could not, and now he is essentially just killing time and keeping his men occupied.

[Free Northman Reborn]

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

See above. He most likely already has one of those. There were glass candles in Qarth that burn when Dany leaves, and Euron's Valyrian armor and Dragonbinder both most likely come from the Qartheen he captured, not from Valyria itself. If he had been there he would have reacted differently when asked by the Reader, and he most likely would have found glass candles there, too, if he could find Valyrian armor there (which is supposed to insanely costly and rare). Apparently not even the Targaryens had a set of Valyrian armor, meaning that only the wealthiest and most powerful dragonlords or sorcerer princes would have had those.

The best explanation for Euron's powerful magical arsenal right now is that the warlocks took all the magical artifacts they had on the ship they took to find and punish Daenerys, including Valyrian armor, Dragonbinder, and some glass candles.

There is one significant item in Oldtown that is interesting. The book 'Blood and Fire or The Death of Dragons' Tyrion recalls in ADwD. It is most likely this very book Jaqen-Pate has been sent to steal from the vaults of the Citadel. This would be the reason why he needed an archmaester's key.

But Euron does not want to kill the dragons. He wants to control them. There is essentially no chance that Jaqen-Pate works for Euron. He is there either on behalf of the House of Black and White (who knew or foresaw that the dragons would come back and intend to ensure that Valyria's remnants stay there) or he is working on behalf of another as of yet unknown faction.

Euron may come around to intend to kill the dragons but only when it comes clear that Dany and her people won't join him. And right that isn't even clear yet.

And again, there is no hint that Euron himself cares about Oldtown all that much or is particularly interested in things that might be found there. He wanted to go to Daenerys. He could not, and now he is essentially just killing time and keeping his men occupied.

Lord Varys

I accept that you are an advocate for Euron linking up with Cersei. But other than speculating that this would be an interesting matchup, there is very little evidence for this. Now, similarly, the idea that Euron may be planning an imminent assault on Oldtown is also just speculation at this stage. But it is speculation with a whole lot going for it.

Most notably, we have the Ironborn having attempted to infiltrate Oldtown already plus we have Euron actually in the immediate vicinity of Oldtown itself, which is a massive advantage for the Oldtown idea over the speculation that either Euron or Cersei will have to cross half a continent to meet up with each other.

Furthermore, the PoV structure might actually be leading up to such an event. We know Martin is not introducing any new PoV's, and we have strong indications that Aeron's days are in fact numbered. Especially if he is to be a blood sacrifice for Euron's battle spell. That really just leaves Samwell as the lone PoV in the area. As Samwell is unlikely to be heading off to sea anytime soon, an Ironborn invasion of Oldtown would actually allow him to conveniently serve as the PoV through which we witness this event.

Not to mention that it would tie in with Mellisandre's vision of burning Towers by the Sea, and it would finally bring the ancient, mysterious and powerful city of Oldtown - and its mysterious magic loving ruling family into the mix of things.

In short, I don't know if this is going to happen or not. But the theory certainly has a heck of a lot going for it at the moment.

[Lord Varys]

53 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Lord Varys

I accept that you are an advocate for Euron linking up with Cersei. But other than speculating that this would be an interesting matchup, there is very little evidence for this.

There are actually hints in that direction as early as ASoS. Cersei is considered as a potential bride for Euron Greyjoy back then. Balon's wife was unmarried but marrying Cersei to Euron comes up after he claims the Seastone Chair.

But an attack on Oldtown and the Cersei thing are not mutually exclusive. I think it unlikely that Euron is going to move against Oldtown soon since that would be too big a fruit to swallow. He certainly could win a lot of spoils there but it could also mean that he is going to lose a lot of men. And magics or not, if one of his campaigns results in the loss of thousands of men this is not going to help his cause. The Ironborn are a quarrelsome lot, and the sea is large. If dozens or scores of long ships just slip away Euron cannot do anything about that.

Euron will take the Arbor after he has dealt with the Redwynes. And the wealth there should be as enormous, or nearly as enormous as what he can win in Oldtown. Not to mention that the Arbor is an island which is going to allow him to actually keep this price for the time being. But he could never keep Oldtown, not even feign to keep like he did with the Shield Islands.

But this all is going to take time. The Arbor is large, and we don't know where the Redwyne castles, keeps, fortified towns, etc. Some will be harbors or otherwise close to the coast, but there might be others farther inland. It will take time to take them all.

And as time passes news about Prince Aegon and Dorne's decision to support him will reach Euron. That is going to be a setback. But what is he going to do when he hears that? Taking his ships back west to attack Oldtown or move farther east to destroy Sunspear?

The latter is much more likely. Doran has sent the majority of his forces in the Red Mountains already. Sunspear is close to the coast and Euron has a very large fleet. He could destroy both Sunspear and the Water Gardens. Whether he will also kill Doran and Trystane remains to be seen.

In addition, the way to the Iron Throne does not go through to Oldtown. Euron is also expecting Daenerys to be delivered to him by Victarion. It makes sense for him to go farther east to wait for them in the Stepstones region. From there they could then move quickly against KL, Euron's actual target. And once the Redwyne fleet is destroyed nobody can stop him from attacking KL. All he needs to do is to get his fleet into Blackwater Bay

53 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Now, similarly, the idea that Euron may be planning an imminent assault on Oldtown is also just speculation at this stage. But it is speculation with a whole lot going for it.

Most notably, we have the Ironborn having attempted to infiltrate Oldtown already plus we have Euron actually in the immediate vicinity of Oldtown itself, which is a massive advantage for the Oldtown idea over the speculation that either Euron or Cersei will have to cross half a continent to meet up with each other.

Well, but nothing indicates that Euron has a real interest in Oldtown. He isn't all that interested in the Arbor, either, but that's a ripe fruit that's falling into his lap right now when he has crushed the Redwynes.

He is just killing time. He has other plans and we know that. He is not telling us, the readers, and the brother(s) he intends to kill that he wants Daenerys, her dragons, and the Ironborn to conceal his plans that he wants Oldtown.

I mean, we have no idea whether those morons who disguised themselves as Tyroshi were acting on Euron's orders or whether that was just a stupid idea of their own. If they were acting on Euron's orders it seems to have been a way to test the defenses of Oldtown or make some sort of reconnaissance mission. A few hundred men should be able to fit into a single ship but Euron would need thousands to actually make any attempt to take the city, and the whole operation would have to be coordinated precisely. The main fleet would have to come quickly after the ship that sneaked in. Else any advantages they might gain using subterfuge in that manner would be lost. And those wouldn't be all that many advantages. The Hightower men in the city would deal with those Ironborn, not the men on the ships.

53 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Furthermore, the PoV structure might actually be leading up to such an event. We know Martin is not introducing any new PoV's, and we have strong indications that Aeron's days are in fact numbered. Especially if he is to be a blood sacrifice for Euron's battle spell. That really just leaves Samwell as the lone PoV in the area. As Samwell is unlikely to be heading off to sea anytime soon, an Ironborn invasion of Oldtown would actually allow him to conveniently serve as the PoV through which we witness this event.

Not to mention that it would tie in with Mellisandre's vision of burning Towers by the Sea, and it would finally bring the ancient, mysterious and powerful city of Oldtown - and its mysterious magic loving ruling family into the mix of things.

In short, I don't know if this is going to happen or not. But the theory certainly has a heck of a lot going for it at the moment.

Just because Samwell is the only POV in the area doesn't mean he will get a POV for Euron. There is a rather interesting story in Oldtown itself, and there are hints that Sam might actually go and visit his family at Horn Hill. He still has the plan to send Gilly to his mother and sisters.

In addition, Euron has little use for Aeron, he won't have any use for a fat coward like Sam. He would just kill him. Even if he knew or cared who he was he would know that Lord Randyll Tarly couldn't care less about the life of this son of his.

If the towers at the sea end up representing Hightowers that could be a vision of the coming sea battle. Hightower ships (and possibly also some of Lord Leyton's sons) will be involved in the battle. This doesn't mean the city has to be attacked. And those towers could also be some towers at the coasts of the Arbor which are going to be taken by Euron after that battle.

Now, Euron attacking Oldtown makes as much strategic sense for him in light of his ultimate goal as did Robb's forces attacking Duskendale.

Euron isn't an erratic madman. He is very much emulating the Conqueror. He is stern to his enemies - as he is going to prove when he deals with the Redwyne fleet - but open-handed and generous to those men who bend the knee. He demonstrated this at the Kingsmoot. He could have tried to oppose the whole idea, he could have used the power base he already had to crush to silence Aeron and simply demand that Victarion serve him as a younger brother should. But he did not. He stole the Kingsmoot from Aeron and made it his own Kingsmoot. That was a brilliant move.

The Tyrells and Hightowers play the confrontational card right now because they know they have the upper hand. The Redwyne fleet is the most powerful war fleet in Westeros. But once it is destroyed they are basically done. It will take years to rebuild that fleet, and Euron will control their waters in the meantime, being able to raid and plunder their coasts at will. He could even attack the shipyards and destroy completed or half-completed galleys. 

If he shows the Hightowers and other Reach lords in the coastal regions his smiling eye he might get them to bend the knee. He might even get their support in his quest for the Iron Throne. Those men are all pragmatic.

He could even play that card when he takes the Arbor. That could be a massacre or a peaceful transition of power.

Euron certainly isn't as mild a conqueror as Aegon but he can pretend to be such a man when it suits him. And right now it should suit him very much.

[Free Northman Reborn]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There are actually hints in that direction as early as ASoS. Cersei is considered as a potential bride for Euron Greyjoy back then. Balon's wife was unmarried but marrying Cersei to Euron comes up after he claims the Seastone Chair.

But an attack on Oldtown and the Cersei thing are not mutually exclusive. I think it unlikely that Euron is going to move against Oldtown soon since that would be too big a fruit to swallow. He certainly could win a lot of spoils there but it could also mean that he is going to lose a lot of men. And magics or not, if one of his campaigns results in the loss of thousands of men this is not going to help his cause. The Ironborn are a quarrelsome lot, and the sea is large. If dozens or scores of long ships just slip away Euron cannot do anything about that.

Euron will take the Arbor after he has dealt with the Redwynes. And the wealth there should be as enormous, or nearly as enormous as what he can win in Oldtown. Not to mention that the Arbor is an island which is going to allow him to actually keep this price for the time being. But he could never keep Oldtown, not even feign to keep like he did with the Shield Islands.

But this all is going to take time. The Arbor is large, and we don't know where the Redwyne castles, keeps, fortified towns, etc. Some will be harbors or otherwise close to the coast, but there might be others farther inland. It will take time to take them all.

And as time passes news about Prince Aegon and Dorne's decision to support him will reach Euron. That is going to be a setback. But what is he going to do when he hears that? Taking his ships back west to attack Oldtown or move farther east to destroy Sunspear?

The latter is much more likely. Doran has sent the majority of his forces in the Red Mountains already. Sunspear is close to the coast and Euron has a very large fleet. He could destroy both Sunspear and the Water Gardens. Whether he will also kill Doran and Trystane remains to be seen.

In addition, the way to the Iron Throne does not go through to Oldtown. Euron is also expecting Daenerys to be delivered to him by Victarion. It makes sense for him to go farther east to wait for them in the Stepstones region. From there they could then move quickly against KL, Euron's actual target. And once the Redwyne fleet is destroyed nobody can stop him from attacking KL. All he needs to do is to get his fleet into Blackwater Bay

Well, but nothing indicates that Euron has a real interest in Oldtown. He isn't all that interested in the Arbor, either, but that's a ripe fruit that's falling into his lap right now when he has crushed the Redwynes.

He is just killing time. He has other plans and we know that. He is not telling us, the readers, and the brother(s) he intends to kill that he wants Daenerys, her dragons, and the Ironborn to conceal his plans that he wants Oldtown.

I mean, we have no idea whether those morons who disguised themselves as Tyroshi were acting on Euron's orders or whether that was just a stupid idea of their own. If they were acting on Euron's orders it seems to have been a way to test the defenses of Oldtown or make some sort of reconnaissance mission. A few hundred men should be able to fit into a single ship but Euron would need thousands to actually make any attempt to take the city, and the whole operation would have to be coordinated precisely. The main fleet would have to come quickly after the ship that sneaked in. Else any advantages they might gain using subterfuge in that manner would be lost. And those wouldn't be all that many advantages. The Hightower men in the city would deal with those Ironborn, not the men on the ships.

Just because Samwell is the only POV in the area doesn't mean he will get a POV for Euron. There is a rather interesting story in Oldtown itself, and there are hints that Sam might actually go and visit his family at Horn Hill. He still has the plan to send Gilly to his mother and sisters.

In addition, Euron has little use for Aeron, he won't have any use for a fat coward like Sam. He would just kill him. Even if he knew or cared who he was he would know that Lord Randyll Tarly couldn't care less about the life of this son of his.

If the towers at the sea end up representing Hightowers that could be a vision of the coming sea battle. Hightower ships (and possibly also some of Lord Leyton's sons) will be involved in the battle. This doesn't mean the city has to be attacked. And those towers could also be some towers at the coasts of the Arbor which are going to be taken by Euron after that battle.

Now, Euron attacking Oldtown makes as much strategic sense for him in light of his ultimate goal as did Robb's forces attacking Duskendale.

Euron isn't an erratic madman. He is very much emulating the Conqueror. He is stern to his enemies - as he is going to prove when he deals with the Redwyne fleet - but open-handed and generous to those men who bend the knee. He demonstrated this at the Kingsmoot. He could have tried to oppose the whole idea, he could have used the power base he already had to crush to silence Aeron and simply demand that Victarion serve him as a younger brother should. But he did not. He stole the Kingsmoot from Aeron and made it his own Kingsmoot. That was a brilliant move.

The Tyrells and Hightowers play the confrontational card right now because they know they have the upper hand. The Redwyne fleet is the most powerful war fleet in Westeros. But once it is destroyed they are basically done. It will take years to rebuild that fleet, and Euron will control their waters in the meantime, being able to raid and plunder their coasts at will. He could even attack the shipyards and destroy completed or half-completed galleys. 

If he shows the Hightowers and other Reach lords in the coastal regions his smiling eye he might get them to bend the knee. He might even get their support in his quest for the Iron Throne. Those men are all pragmatic.

He could even play that card when he takes the Arbor. That could be a massacre or a peaceful transition of power.

Euron certainly isn't as mild a conqueror as Aegon but he can pretend to be such a man when it suits him. And right now it should suit him very much.

I enjoy this discussion, because all of it has merit and we really don't know what's in store. As I said, I'm not invested in the Oldtown idea. I just think it might fit in with the direction the story is going. Or it might not.

An issue I want to tackle, is the idea of what makes strategic sense and what doesn't. Frankly, Martin seems to decide this based on where he wants the narrative to go. And the strategic value or lack thereof of a decision seems to be declared in hindsight, mostly. Was Robb's idea to split his forces strategically sound? I don't think so. The chances of riding hundreds of miles un-dedected to ambush Jaime seem highly unrealistic. Neither was Tywin's idea to hang out at Harrenhal while his homeland was being raided. His forces should have been bleeding away at a rapid rate.  Theon's plan to try and capture Winterfell with 20 men was ridiculous. As is Stannis's plan to march on Winterfell in the dead of Winter.

Tyrion's chain idea was quaint, but hardly would have achieved much if not for Tywin's unexpected arrival in the nick of time. The list goes on.

As for Euron, his entire campaign is strategically woeful. The Ironborn have no hope in hell of making any lasting land conquests anywhere in the Reach. And this while the Iron Fleet itself is not even with them. Martin conveniently never mentions exactly how many men they have with them, nor what their losses to battle, storms, disease or general mishap are. But somehow they just keep sowing havoc from the Shield Islands to the Arbor and onwards.

So raiding Oldtown (note, not capturing, but raiding for a specific purpose), presents no greater strategic folly than sailing up the Narrow Sea to try and attack King's Landing or Sunspear or any other target. Their entire campaign is laughable. Hence, at least if Oldtown presents some kind of prize in itself, such as a magical artefact of some sort, it will let the whole thing make sense.

Otherwise Euron is indeed an imbecile.

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

But maybe George spins it that the glass candle provides Euron with some major benefits that I'm not thinking of right now. But other than being a source of knowledge of things happening in far off places, it seems kind of limited to me. And if Martin's purpose was really to get Euron a plot device by which he can have knowledge of distant events that he would otherwise not have, well, why the need to go through the whole Ironborn invasion of Oldtown plot to get there? After all, he gave Euron a magical Dragonhorn and a suit of Valyrian armour for free. It would have been just as easy to give him a glass candle along with those two already impressive items.

Knowledge is certainly something he's after: shade of the evening and all sort of scryers. Might be certain books too, and maesters with magical gifts. But I don't think glass candles are something to snuff at in a world where it otherwise can take at best days before you learn of something happening.

We are so used to knowing what's happening almost in real time, from all over the world. But if it takes half a year to learn what's going on in Mereen, or a month to know what's going on in King's Landing, then those glass candles are wunderbar. And since he controls fast swift ships that can also sail upriver, he can beat armies being sent out against him overland easily. Scouts are obviously very important if you mean to conquer and expect resistance, no? Tactically it gives him enormous advantages. Apparently the guy ventured Valyria for a special armor, just for himself. Tactically it also makes sense to keep such items out of the hands you want to conquer, make them blind to your manouevring. If he can take them all, then he keeps the Citadel blind. If he can do a spell on them (think Sauron and the palantirs), then he might make the other ones blind too perhaps. And if it's what enables Quaithe to communicate to Dany, it might enable Euron to communicate with someone who doesn't have a glass candle too. He could start wooing Dany from long distance.

Could George have given him glass candles from someplace else? Yes, George could have done that, but then there would be little story, no? George could have written the series with Dany on the Iron throne and the Others destroyed (not that I think that'll be the actual ending, just saying). But he didn't. He seems to have decided that glass candlers are rare and that the maesters collected several of them for themselves. It makes for a story in which he can involve the Citadel and Sam, while strategically destroying Oldtown. Because of course Oldtown itself has tactical advantages on top of it. He has to sell Oldtown to his Ironborn after all: rich town to plunder and together with the Arbor it practically gives him control over the southern sea. It doesn't have to be either/or.

We readers often think of certain things as "pfff, is it only that?" when obviously the in-world characters think it special or something that rocks their world. When Leo says the candles are burning, he's met with disbelief as much as the people sailing in with news of Dany with dragons, and Alleras watches him closely, almost as if she thinks it wrong to announce it like that. The Quaithe scene in Mereen with her message is set up to provoke our reaction on "how did she do that? What powerful magic does she have at her disposal?" I mean, his armor is not something that gets me personally raving with excitement, but I can still recognize why he'd want it, and that it gives him an enormous advantage.

[Free Northman Reborn]

7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Knowledge is certainly something he's after: shade of the evening and all sort of scryers. Might be certain books too, and maesters with magical gifts. But I don't think glass candles are something to snuff at in a world where it otherwise can take at best days before you learn of something happening.

We are so used to knowing what's happening almost in real time, from all over the world. But if it takes half a year to learn what's going on in Mereen, or a month to know what's going on in King's Landing, then those glass candles are wunderbar. And since he controls fast swift ships that can also sail upriver, he can beat armies being sent out against him overland easily. Scouts are obviously very important if you mean to conquer and expect resistance, no? Tactically it gives him enormous advantages. Apparently the guy ventured Valyria for a special armor, just for himself. Tactically it also makes sense to keep such items out of the hands you want to conquer, make them blind to your manouevring. If he can take them all, then he keeps the Citadel blind. If he can do a spell on them (think Sauron and the palantirs), then he might make the other ones blind too perhaps. And if it's what enables Quaithe to communicate to Dany, it might enable Euron to communicate with someone who doesn't have a glass candle too. He could start wooing Dany from long distance.

Could George have given him glass candles from someplace else? Yes, George could have done that, but then there would be little story, no? George could have written the series with Dany on the Iron throne and the Others destroyed (not that I think that'll be the actual ending, just saying). But he didn't. He seems to have decided that glass candlers are rare and that the maesters collected several of them for themselves. It makes for a story in which he can involve the Citadel and Sam, while strategically destroying Oldtown. Because of course Oldtown itself has tactical advantages on top of it. He has to sell Oldtown to his Ironborn after all: rich town to plunder and together with the Arbor it practically gives him control over the southern sea. It doesn't have to be either/or.

We readers often think of certain things as "pfff, is it only that?" when obviously the in-world characters think it special or something that rocks their world. When Leo says the candles are burning, he's met with disbelief as much as the people sailing in with news of Dany with dragons, and Alleras watches him closely, almost as if she thinks it wrong to announce it like that. The Quaithe scene in Mereen with her message is set up to provoke our reaction on "how did she do that? What powerful magic does she have at her disposal?" I mean, his armor is not something that gets me personally raving with excitement, but I can still recognize why he'd want it, and that it gives him an enormous advantage.

Oh I agree about the armour. Lord Varys believes that it is something that makes him much more formidable, but other than being impressive to behold, and probably giving him an advantage in one on one combat due to its light weight and flexibility, I hardly think it is going to make him invincible. He is not a renowned fighter to start with, and besides, Valyrian steel isn't cuendillar. It is not impenetrable to damage, or dragonfire or any such threat. It is just a bit better than normal steel.

Also, Euron's fortunes won't rely on his one-on-one combat abilities, so the armour is largely symbolic as far as I'm concerned. As far as the glass candles are concerned, I don't really know, to be honest. It just seems that this alone won't change his fortunes overall. He needs something like a fully grown dragon. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the glass candle allows him to become a strategic mastermind.

 

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Also, Euron's fortunes won't rely on his one-on-one combat abilities, so the armour is largely symbolic as far as I'm concerned. As far as the glass candles are concerned, I don't really know, to be honest. It just seems that this alone won't change his fortunes overall. He needs something like a fully grown dragon. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the glass candle allows him to become a strategic mastermind.

at the last. I don't think anything will ever make him a strategic mastermind. He's LF on 10 x as much testosterone. He wins because everybody else thinks he possibly can't be that dangerous, that crazy, that evil. Without the shade and whatever magical stuff he has already, I don't think he'd be anywhere. He's not a mastermind. He's cheating

I think the armor is good against dragonbone and those bows of the Summer Islanders.

I agree though on the dragon. Him on a dragon would be a total nightmare.

I do wonder about his ship. There's something about the way George describes it that it almost seems to have life of its own. That's a ship I don't want to come across on sea.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I enjoy this discussion, because all of it has merit and we really don't know what's in store. As I said, I'm not invested in the Oldtown idea. I just think it might fit in with the direction the story is going. Or it might not.

Sure, it is just that nothing actually indicates he wants anything in Oldtown. And if he did he still has or might have that Faceless Man he used to murder Balon. It doesn't seem likely that he actually paid for that murder. It is more likely that Euron caught himself a Faceless Man and broke him. You don't leave the Silence unchanged, it seems.

8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

An issue I want to tackle, is the idea of what makes strategic sense and what doesn't. Frankly, Martin seems to decide this based on where he wants the narrative to go. And the strategic value or lack thereof of a decision seems to be declared in hindsight, mostly. Was Robb's idea to split his forces strategically sound? I don't think so. The chances of riding hundreds of miles un-dedected to ambush Jaime seem highly unrealistic.

If you take the distances into account, yes (but that's the case for any decision), but if you consider the subterfuge used (ensuring that the Lannisters think the army is coming down the Kingsroad) and Jaime's character and the terrain around Riverrun it works.

8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Neither was Tywin's idea to hang out at Harrenhal while his homeland was being raided. His forces should have been bleeding away at a rapid rate.

He wasn't hanging around there all that long. ACoK is a thick book but not all that much time passes in that book and Tywin was torn between marching to KL and counter an attack by Stannis or Renly there and between dealing with Robb. Not to mention that his presence at Harrenhal cut Robb off from Roose's army, which was part of the reason why Robb eventually lost the war.

8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Theon's plan to try and capture Winterfell with 20 men was ridiculous.

I agree there, but Theon is a moron. But he had the huge advantage of knowing the minds of the Northmen, especially that of Ser Rodrik. He could predict everything the man would do.

8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As is Stannis's plan to march on Winterfell in the dead of Winter.

He begins his march on a sunny autumn day, remember. It only begins to snow after they have marched half of the way or more, and it is not yet the dead of winter. That has not yet come. But once you have begun such a march you have to finish it. You can't go back.

8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As for Euron, his entire campaign is strategically woeful. The Ironborn have no hope in hell of making any lasting land conquests anywhere in the Reach. And this while the Iron Fleet itself is not even with them. Martin conveniently never mentions exactly how many men they have with them, nor what their losses to battle, storms, disease or general mishap are. But somehow they just keep sowing havoc from the Shield Islands to the Arbor and onwards.

Euron does not hope to make any conquests there using force. This is my point. The Shield Islands were a public relations thing to show off his genius. He has no intention to keep them. Oldtown would be a much more costly victory and he could not properly use it the same way as the Shield Islands, by granting it to a newly created lord. And sacking Oldtown would make it very hard for him to win the allegiance of anyone in the Reach, something he has to to do if he wants the Iron Throne. And he wants the Iron Throne. He is not as stupid as to think he can kill anyone standing in his way. He has to win some of those men (and kill the people he wants to kill later, when he can afford to do it).

8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So raiding Oldtown (note, not capturing, but raiding for a specific purpose), presents no greater strategic folly than sailing up the Narrow Sea to try and attack King's Landing or Sunspear or any other target. Their entire campaign is laughable. Hence, at least if Oldtown presents some kind of prize in itself, such as a magical artefact of some sort, it will let the whole thing make sense.

Taking KL is not laughable. If you sit the Iron Throne you have the trappings of power. And if you kill a rival pretender (or more than one) in the process of that quite a few people might bend the knee. Winter has come, remember? A lot of people should be tired and sick of war. If Euron took the Iron Throne he could keep for the entire winter if Dany wouldn't be coming. Especially if he killed Aegon in the process of his campaign and won the support of the West through Cersei. The Vale would remain quiet in light of Euron's vast power at sea, which should make it very easy for him to invade the Vale.

@sweetsunray

There is just no textual evidence that Euron either wants or needs a glass candle. Perhaps he already has one? He could have. And perhaps drinking shade of the evening is a lot better than staring at a glass candle because it gives you much stronger and more precise seer visions than staring at a glass candle? We don't know.

But the idea that Euron wants a glass candle from Oldtown - we don't even know whether he knows that such things exist there - when he already has acquired much rarer magical artifacts is even stretching credibility more. We know the Qartheen have glass candles, too. If they have them then pretty much anyone could have them.

9 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Oh I agree about the armour. Lord Varys believes that it is something that makes him much more formidable, but other than being impressive to behold, and probably giving him an advantage in one on one combat due to its light weight and flexibility, I hardly think it is going to make him invincible. He is not a renowned fighter to start with, and besides, Valyrian steel isn't cuendillar. It is not impenetrable to damage, or dragonfire or any such threat. It is just a bit better than normal steel.

That is what you tell yourself to feel safe at night, is it? Just go on deceiving yourself. Joking aside, we know that Valyrian steel is magical. It is created using spells. And it is impervious to fire, perhaps even not-so-hot dragonfire (from one of Dany's young ones). If there is a character one can see as a dragon slayer it is Euron with a Valyrian steel sword in that armor. The teeth and claws should not matter and you might even be able to survive the dragonfire in such an armor. If you get close enough to dragon it is dead.

I mean, don't you understand Aeron's reaction when he realizes what Euron is wearing? That is no small thing at all, and the author is not playing this up as some sort of special gimmick. It is a huge thing.

How do you know that Euron isn't a renowned fighter? The man isn't the kind of killing machine that Victarion is but he must be pretty good at what he does. Very few Ironborn are bad fighters.

11 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

at the last. I don't think anything will ever make him a strategic mastermind. He's LF on 10 x as much testosterone. He wins because everybody else thinks he possibly can't be that dangerous, that crazy, that evil. Without the shade and whatever magical stuff he has already, I don't think he'd be anywhere. He's not a mastermind. He's cheating

Everybody is cheating. And Euron has nothing to do with the mundane and cowardly ways of Littlefinger. He is a murderous pirate with ambition and the skills and plans to realize those. We still have no idea how powerful his magical abilities are but anyone who is likely to crush an armada of hundreds of ships with a spell might be able to repeat that stunt later on under different circumstances. Not to mention that he could also use magic to target specific people (like Stannis earlier did). There are many ways to win a war.

11 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I do wonder about his ship. There's something about the way George describes it that it almost seems to have life of its own. That's a ship I don't want to come across on sea.

It is a symbol for Euron's power over minds. Whoever enters that ship belongs to him. You don't leave it unchanged. We see that happening with Aeron. Thanks to Euron's influence he sees his own Drowned God in his visions. This is never going to happen in real life but it is a sign that Euron has broken Aeron on a fundamental level.

[Free Northman Reborn]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, it is just that nothing actually indicates he wants anything in Oldtown. And if he did he still has or might have that Faceless Man he used to murder Balon. It doesn't seem likely that he actually paid for that murder. It is more likely that Euron caught himself a Faceless Man and broke him. You don't leave the Silence unchanged, it seems.

If you take the distances into account, yes (but that's the case for any decision), but if you consider the subterfuge used (ensuring that the Lannisters think the army is coming down the Kingsroad) and Jaime's character and the terrain around Riverrun it works.

He wasn't hanging around there all that long. ACoK is a thick book but not all that much time passes in that book and Tywin was torn between marching to KL and counter an attack by Stannis or Renly there and between dealing with Robb. Not to mention that his presence at Harrenhal cut Robb off from Roose's army, which was part of the reason why Robb eventually lost the war.

I agree there, but Theon is a moron. But he had the huge advantage of knowing the minds of the Northmen, especially that of Ser Rodrik. He could predict everything the man would do.

He begins his march on a sunny autumn day, remember. It only begins to snow after they have marched half of the way or more, and it is not yet the dead of winter. That has not yet come. But once you have begun such a march you have to finish it. You can't go back.

Euron does not hope to make any conquests there using force. This is my point. The Shield Islands were a public relations thing to show off his genius. He has no intention to keep them. Oldtown would be a much more costly victory and he could not properly use it the same way as the Shield Islands, by granting it to a newly created lord. And sacking Oldtown would make it very hard for him to win the allegiance of anyone in the Reach, something he has to to do if he wants the Iron Throne. And he wants the Iron Throne. He is not as stupid as to think he can kill anyone standing in his way. He has to win some of those men (and kill the people he wants to kill later, when he can afford to do it).

Taking KL is not laughable. If you sit the Iron Throne you have the trappings of power. And if you kill a rival pretender (or more than one) in the process of that quite a few people might bend the knee. Winter has come, remember? A lot of people should be tired and sick of war. If Euron took the Iron Throne he could keep for the entire winter if Dany wouldn't be coming. Especially if he killed Aegon in the process of his campaign and won the support of the West through Cersei. The Vale would remain quiet in light of Euron's vast power at sea, which should make it very easy for him to invade the Vale.

@sweetsunray

There is just no textual evidence that Euron either wants or needs a glass candle. Perhaps he already has one? He could have. And perhaps drinking shade of the evening is a lot better than staring at a glass candle because it gives you much stronger and more precise seer visions than staring at a glass candle? We don't know.

But the idea that Euron wants a glass candle from Oldtown - we don't even know whether he knows that such things exist there - when he already has acquired much rarer magical artifacts is even stretching credibility more. We know the Qartheen have glass candles, too. If they have them then pretty much anyone could have them.

That is what you tell yourself to feel safe at night, is it? Just go on deceiving yourself. Joking aside, we know that Valyrian steel is magical. It is created using spells. And it is impervious to fire, perhaps even not-so-hot dragonfire (from one of Dany's young ones). If there is a character one can see as a dragon slayer it is Euron with a Valyrian steel sword in that armor. The teeth and claws should not matter and you might even be able to survive the dragonfire in such an armor. If you get close enough to dragon it is dead.

I mean, don't you understand Aeron's reaction when he realizes what Euron is wearing? That is no small thing at all, and the author is not playing this up as some sort of special gimmick. It is a huge thing.

How do you know that Euron isn't a renowned fighter? The man isn't the kind of killing machine that Victarion is but he must be pretty good at what he does. Very few Ironborn are bad fighters.

Everybody is cheating. And Euron has nothing to do with the mundane and cowardly ways of Littlefinger. He is a murderous pirate with ambition and the skills and plans to realize those. We still have no idea how powerful his magical abilities are but anyone who is likely to crush an armada of hundreds of ships with a spell might be able to repeat that stunt later on under different circumstances. Not to mention that he could also use magic to target specific people (like Stannis earlier did). There are many ways to win a war.

It is a symbol for Euron's power over minds. Whoever enters that ship belongs to him. You don't leave it unchanged. We see that happening with Aeron. Thanks to Euron's influence he sees his own Drowned God in his visions. This is never going to happen in real life but it is a sign that Euron has broken Aeron on a fundamental level.

Just on the Valyrian armour thing. Aeron plays it up because it is impressive, and insanely expensive. It should be seen in the same way as Euron blowing the Dragonhorn at the Kingsmoot. To impress people. Not to make him suddenly invincible.

And Valyrian steel cannot be impervious to fire. It can be melted and forged by fire, after all. And Dragonfire is much hotter than normal fire. Even if the steel does not melt, it will heat up to fry the person inside the armour if it gets hot enough.

 

[sweetsunray]

@Lord Varys No point in paging me. Unless someone else quotes you, I don't read your posts, and don't receive a "ping" either. And you and I have nothing to debate with each other, whatsoever. We both suspect one another of debating on bad faith. You admitted to using nitpick arguments for entrapment reasons, and you used whatever excuse and nitpick to justify the admitted entrapment, and then also used that perceived "debating in bad faith from my part" as excuse to not search for a quote. I warned you that was the end of any further attempt to discourse. Since you can't make the effort in digging up quotes to support your claims,  I don't even get why you make the effort to even read my posts, let alone reply to them. We both know you will disagree with anything I say or write anyway. So there, let's end it here before it starts: "We agree to disagree".

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

@Lord Varys No point in paging me. Unless someone else quotes you, I don't read your posts, and don't receive a "ping" either. And you and I have nothing to debate with each other, whatsoever. We both suspect one another of debating on bad faith.  

That fits with your unwillingness to admit when you are wrong. Have fun in your mental bubble.

10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Just on the Valyrian armour thing. Aeron plays it up because it is impressive, and insanely expensive. It should be seen in the same way as Euron blowing the Dragonhorn at the Kingsmoot. To impress people. Not to make him suddenly invincible.

And Valyrian steel cannot be impervious to fire. It can be melted and forged by fire, after all. And Dragonfire is much hotter than normal fire. Even if the steel does not melt, it will heat up to fry the person inside the armour if it gets hot enough.

He certainly isn't invincible because of that armor. You could still shoot an arrow through his eye or drown him or whatever. But it is something that is important. And that Valyrian armor might very well go to another person after Euron's death (assuming he does not drown in the sea wearing it), a person who could use it to similar effect.

I mean, it is a powerful image to imagine Euron standing at the prow of the Silence in the midst of that huge naval battle between his Daenerys' forces laughing at Daenerys and Drogon (or her other dragonriders) who can't really hurt him directly. That is, until his ship catches fire.

Valyrian steel is impervious to fire, though. Blackfyre was laid on the Conqueror's pyre when it was incinerated using the flames of Vhagar. That doesn't mean Blackfyre got a full blow of the dragon's fire but it might have. All that happened to the blade in the flames of the pyre is that it grow somewhat darker.

Considering that magic is used creating Valyrian steel the steel itself might actually no longer impervious to things that could have melted or damaged it prior to the spells. That's what magic is all about, to make impossible things a reality. If that wasn't the case then there is no reason why a common smith with a hot fire should not be able to melt Valyrian steel. But they can't. Some people can reforge it but they, too, have to use spells. Tobho Mott learned those in Qohor.

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

Man do you ever love making shit up. A Faceless Man working for him for free? High melting temperature rquals impervious to fire? That is some shiny tinfoil. At least other kooks like 40,000 Skeletons admit they're way out in left field. 

Give quotes or at least acknowledge how much conjecture you're engaging in.