The matter of legacy

[Lion of the West]

"Old fools and young malcontents still make pilgrimages to the Redgrass Field to plant flowers on the spot where Daemon Blackfyre fell. I will not suffer Whitewalls to become another monument to the Black Dragon."

The Mystery Knight

Something that I've been thinking about in the series is how in the latest part there has been a loss of the old guard of the leaders from the series and that much looks like heirs to these early leaders will come to carry on the fight and embrace the legacy left by their predecessors. And so I thought to write up this thread to discuss to which degree people think that legacy will have an impact on the heirs of lost leaders. Potentially inheriting both friends and foes as well as finding themselves aided or hindered by association with the actions of the previous leaders. The ones I am thinking mostly about is how Tywin is succeeded by Cersei, that Aegon will push for his father Rhaegar's legacy, Robb's phantom heir who has yet to be revealed to us and Danaerys will draw her claim to the Iron Throne from her father Aerys.

Now the best example of the matter of legacy in Westerosi history is in my opinion the Blackfyre cause. Across more than half a century the descendents of Blackfyre managed to keep their flame burning, all based on the supposed awesomeness of the OG Daemon Blackfyre. To me that speaks well about just how strong a legacy can be to motivate people and steer their lives for generations. And another is Rhaenyra who after her death could keep her forces fighting against Aegon II and take victory. It seems that the Blacks of both Daemon and Rhaenyra were made of stubborn and sturdy stuff.

The reason that I brought up Daemon Blackfyre was both that he personified a lasting legacy as well as that he has many similarities with two of the leaders that went out and who now have heirs coming to claim that legacy; Rhaegar and Robb. In all three causes I would argue that these leaders managed to keep their personal image free from the stain of defeat by either losing honorably and having their enemies stain their victory with dishonorable methods. In the case of Daemon its a stark contrast between Daemon's duel with Corbray and the way that Bloodraven dispatched the Black Dragon by killing his sons to hold him within the killing field. And in the case of Rhaegar we have the always favorite quote of mine; "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably."  and that Rhaegar was absent and so avoided to get murders of the Starks & Co associated with himself,.which is in stark contrast to the brutal dispatch of Rhaegar's family. And finally we have Robb Stark who got killed in the most dishonorable fashion of them all with the Red Wedding, which shifts the spotlight away from him losing his rebellion to the Freys being the most dishonorable scum on Planetos. As I see it, that gives the heirs of Rhaegar and Robb a very good PR legacy in that their old supporters are itching for a re-match as much as Daemon's Blacks were after the Redgrass Field, or at least the nobles seems to have been, against enemies stained with dishonor.

"For here comes he brave heir of Rhaegar/Robb to avenge themselves on the dishonorable Lannisters, Freys and Boltons!"

Its a good rallying cry for various malcontens and loyalists who haven't given up the fight. The downside of these two legacies are of course that old enemies are likely to remember that old grudges lives, as pretty much personfied by JonCon, on and that Robb's heir may find it difficult to get his supporters to go for somethinig besides an independent kingdom from the Iron Throne as they see him or her as a new King/Queen in the North, rather than a leader in his/her own right.

In constrast to this I would say that Cersei and Danaerys (and I am here perhaps falsely presuming that Daenaerys will make it to Westeros at one point in the series to make a go for the Iron Throne), have a more difficult legacy to grasp and use. Tywin's left most to his heir in the shape of alliance, power at court and so on, but also with much resentment against the Lannisters which means that the Lannisters needs to keep themselves on top to ensure their safety. But Cersei seems so far to have squandered much of the practical legacy and seems unable to turn this great inheritance towards a constructive purpose. Danaerys on the other hand has in my mind a cursed legacy from her father Aerys where she will need to both emphatize that she is her father's daughter and so with the strongest claim after Rhagar's disinhertitance but also distance herself so that people won't think that she's a womanly version of Aerys II come to torment Westeros again. If Maegor an heir of his body, I think that heir would be in the same situation as Danerys but since we don't have that, I can't think of any good similar figure in Westeros history to compare with her situation.

What are your thought about the matter of legacy in the Game of Thrones?

[The Bard of Banefort]

Hmm I guess you could say Aegon III had a similar disadvantage. His mother was "Maegor with teats" and his father was reviled by half of the realm. His council kept him on the throne, but they tried to control him as well. In the end, his brother Viserys was his saving grace.

There were times that Dany was actually a bit like Aegon the Unlikely, which I guess comes from both of their exposures to the poor growing up. Unfortunately, the Aegon V inside of her is getting pushed aside in favor of the Conqueror and the other dragonriders. She seems to think of herself more as Rhaegar's heir than Aerys' though, which will become an issue when Aegon "takes the place" of Rhaegar's true heir in the next book.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

Nice topic.  When it comes to legacy, those who are doing things for the pride of their houses are those who are causing the most harm to themselves and the realm.  Robb marched thousands of men off to die at war because of Ned's legacy.  Ned did the same because of Brandon, Rickard, and Lyanna's.  Tywin committed countless atrocities to assert the dominance of his house - in other words, to secure his legacy.  Cersei continues in Tywin's footsteps.  The Frey's committ the red wedding because of how disrespected they feel as a house.  Danaerys' major turning point to me is when she delays going to Westeros to reassert her family's legacy and instead stays in Meereen to help the people.  Stannis, it can be argued, believes it is his duty to protect his family legacy to the extent that he had his brother killed (I wouldn't argue that he believes his duty is to his family legacy but it could be argued).

There are good and bad people here, but their pursuit of maintaining their family legacy has caused a lot of pain and suffering.  Many cannot be blamed - this is what they were raised and taught to value.

Now think about Jon Snow, whose legacy is as Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, the supposed "rightful king" and song of ice and fire.  Jon the bastard, who struggled with his identity and family responsibilities but ultimately rejected the opportunity to become Lord Stark of winterfell.  I believe it is Jon, who is focused on the common enemy that is the Others and not on the pride of his houses, who will help to at least temporarily "break the wheel" of the houses trampling on each other and the small folk for the sake of their legacies.

How sad would it be if the bittersweet ending involed Jeyne Westlerling's child by Robb rising in rebellion in honor of his house and restarting the devastating and prideful storm all over again.

[Lion of the West]

19 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Hmm I guess you could say Aegon III had a similar disadvantage. His mother was "Maegor with teats" and his father was reviled by half of the realm. His council kept him on the throne, but they tried to control him as well. In the end, his brother Viserys was his saving grace.

There were times that Dany was actually a bit like Aegon the Unlikely, which I guess comes from both of their exposures to the poor growing up. Unfortunately, the Aegon V inside of her is getting pushed aside in favor of the Conqueror and the other dragonriders. She seems to think of herself more as Rhaegar's heir than Aerys' though, which will become an issue when Aegon "takes the place" of Rhaegar's true heir in the next book.

While true that Aegon got some bad press from Daemon, I think that Rhaenyra was not in fact percieved as a female Maegor given how her Blacks won the war and fought on in her name even after she was defeated. But its true that there seems to have been ambitions to make him into a puppet ruler and that he had critical support from his brother Viserys.

19 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Nice topic.  When it comes to legacy, those who are doing things for the pride of their houses are those who are causing the most harm to themselves and the realm.  Robb marched thousands of men off to die at war because of Ned's legacy.  Ned did the same because of Brandon, Rickard, and Lyanna's.  Tywin committed countless atrocities to assert the dominance of his house - in other words, to secure his legacy.  Cersei continues in Tywin's footsteps.  The Frey's committ the red wedding because of how disrespected they feel as a house.  Danaerys' major turning point to me is when she delays going to Westeros to reassert her family's legacy and instead stays in Meereen to help the people.  Stannis, it can be argued, believes it is his duty to protect his family legacy to the extent that he had his brother killed (I wouldn't argue that he believes his duty is to his family legacy but it could be argued).

There are good and bad people here, but their pursuit of maintaining their family legacy has caused a lot of pain and suffering.  Many cannot be blamed - this is what they were raised and taught to value.

Now think about Jon Snow, whose legacy is as Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, the supposed "rightful king" and song of ice and fire.  Jon the bastard, who struggled with his identity and family responsibilities but ultimately rejected the opportunity to become Lord Stark of winterfell.  I believe it is Jon, who is focused on the common enemy that is the Others and not on the pride of his houses, who will help to at least temporarily "break the wheel" of the houses trampling on each other and the small folk for the sake of their legacies.

How sad would it be if the bittersweet ending involed Jeyne Westlerling's child by Robb rising in rebellion in honor of his house and restarting the devastating and prideful storm all over again.

You have a good point in that pride is as much a cause of problem in Westeros as ambition or greed is. With the prime examples of that of course being Robb and his rebellion, and the descendents of Daemon Blackfyre falling into the same category.

In regards to those who seems to be likely to make a shot at presenting themselves as the Targaryen heirs; Daenaerys, Jon Snow and Aegon, I would think that all of them will indeed as I feel you pointed out, seek to associate themselves with "The Last Dragon" in Prince Rhaegar while disassociating themselves from Aerys. And in this Aegon would have the best shot due to being both Rhaegar's son as well as having his old friend Jon Connington around to vouch for Aegon's pedigree. Daenaerys on the other hand has the issue of only being a sister to Rhagar, thus make it a bit harder for her to say that she's Rhagar's heir as opposed to be lobbed in as Aerys' heir. And Jon Snow, being an unrecognized bastard, would seem to be in the weakest position of all to make a claim to the Targaryen legacy as he's lacking in recognition, is a bastard, uncertain pedigree, lacks dragons and lacks the Valyrian look.

What I make out of Jon however is that Jon will not seek to claim the Targaryen heritage but rather stay with the Watch. Remeber that he's already turned down Winterfell and Jon is as much a Stark as a Targaryen.

In regards to who will break the cycle of feuds and bloodletting? I don't think that any of the Targaryens looks like they would be like it at the moment. Aegon is marinaded in vengeance, especially if he joins with Dorne when there will be both JonCon, Golden Company and the Martells are having axes to grind. Jon Snow on the other hand has also taken an active part against the enemies of House Stark so I don't see him rising above that. The best shot is, in my mind, Daenaerys, who has so far managed to seek peace and accept comprimisses while in a position of authority. If she can restrain herself from outright massacre the whole slaver cast of Meereen then I'm pretty sure that she will be able to restrain herself from having to settle all the old scores that House Targaryen carries since Robert's Rebellion. IF Daenaerys comes to take possession of the Iron Throne and keeps it.