Robert Baratheon Surrounding himself with Lannisters

[elder brother jonothor dar]

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

We have zero evidence that Catelyn's actions are illegal in any way.  She certainly doesn't think they are.  The dozens of men who aid her on the spur of the moment seem to think it's reasonable.  And it fits in with the way such arrests worked in the real world.

By contrast, Gregor Clegane's actions are explicitly called illegal from the word go.

You mean at the time or after Ned steps in.  As hand he speaks with the kings own voice and can make up the rules as he gos.  He gave Cats action his seal of approval and legitimacy and condems Gregor to death on the word of a few peasants.

 

Ned and Tywin are both playing with fire; playing chicken with Robert.

[cpg2016]

1 minute ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Ned and Tywin are both playing with fire; playing chicken with Robert.

Very true.... except Ned has formal political authority and Tywin does not.

Tywin is an awful, awful tactician, because he's motivated by revenge.  He got away with the Rains of Castamere early in his career, and it's made him think that the only strategy is all out aggression combined with the hope that whoever the authority figure is won't care enough to dole out repercussions for whatever it is he does.

[giant snake]

Gregor is rightly condemned because of the testimony of peasants and probably because of a pattern of behavior.

Say what you want about Starks as rulers, they make for good judges.  Unfortunately the Lannisters are one step ahead of him the entire time because they are actively working towards a coup against King Robert. 

[DarkBastard]

4 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Tywin plans an ambush of the men Ned Stark sends out to apprehend the criminal Gregor Clegane.  This is an outright attack on the lawful authority of the throne.  The entire plan is to capture the Hand of the King and ransom him for Tyrion.  It is open rebellion, full stop.  He was just hoping Robert would be as disinterested as usual and treat the whole thing as a fait accompli once it was done.  Which is so, so stupid.

 

I've had this discussion elsewhere.  Long story short, there is nothing overtly illegal about Catelyn's arrest of Tyrion.  She certainly thinks it's legal.  The dozens of men who help her think it's legal.

And it isn't the pillaging that is going to get Tywin into real hot water.  But the pillaging is specifically to draw Ned into the Riverlands to apprehend him, so Tywin can capture and imprison Ned.  It's an unbelievably stupid plan, and whatever he ordered Gregor to do, there are enough men participating in the attack on Beric's party that all pretense of plausible deniability is gone.  He's making war on the authority of the crown.  The only thing that saves him is Robert's death and Cersei's coup.

Sorry, what I should have said, is that my opinions are logical and have support in the text.  Yours don't.

 

We have zero evidence that Catelyn's actions are illegal in any way.  She certainly doesn't think they are.  The dozens of men who aid her on the spur of the moment seem to think it's reasonable.  And it fits in with the way such arrests worked in the real world.

By contrast, Gregor Clegane's actions are explicitly called illegal from the word go.

You believe Catelyn Stark has the right to seize a man and try him for murder based on circumstantial evidence of ownership of a knife, which was provided by a whoremonger who would never testify to his own words?  

Brilliant.

Open rebellion occurs when someone declares the themselves no longer under the rule of another.  Robb did that.  Tywin did not.  You have zero textual evidence that Tywin "planned the ambush" of the men sent to bring Gregor to justice.  

So much for your opinions being supported by text.

The fact that you think Tywin a moron is proof that you don't truly understand these characters as written.

Full stop.  Mike drop.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

11 hours ago, DarkBastard said:

Opening rebellion occurs when someone declares the themselves no longer under the rule of another.  Robb did that.  Tywin did not.  You have zero textual evidence that Tywin "planned the ambush" of the men sent to bring Gregor to justice. 

Tywin showed some restraint in not breaking the Kings peace while Robert was alive, capturing the Kings hand would technically be open rebellion, it's just Tywin did not get that opportunity, had Robert lived long enough he probably would have invaded the riverlands and broken the Kings peace.

 

No doubt up to that point Tywin was keeping his hands clean and would have just hung Gregor out to dry should the worst have happened

[DarkBastard]

1 hour ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

No doubt up to that point Tywin was keeping his hands clean and would have just hung Gregor out to dry should the worst have happened

I agree completely.  Tywin's greatest focus was on preserving the legacy of his house, he would never have jeopardized it wantonly.  Gregor was always predisposed to the behavior, it would not have been difficult for Tywin to pin the actions on him as a rogue knight, not acting on his authority.  He can easily say:

"Gregor's fury during the sack of King's Landing led to similar atrocities, perhaps the King should have brought justice to him then.  The abduction of my son by a Tully, with the help of other men of the Riverlands, may have led him to commit these acts....misguided as they are."

[cpg2016]

15 hours ago, DarkBastard said:

You believe Catelyn Stark has the right to seize a man and try him for murder based on circumstantial evidence of ownership of a knife, which was provided by a whoremonger who would never testify to his own words?  

HAHAHAHA.  So your point is I am crazy for believing you can make an illegal arrest based on testimony from a witness?  As far as Catelyn is concerned, one of the most powerful men in the realm (Littlefinger) has attested to the fact that the attempted murder weapon belonged to Tyrion Lannister.  You are aware, I hope, that arrests in our justice system are made on far, far less, right?  Seriously.... think it through before wasting everyone's time.

 

15 hours ago, DarkBastard said:

Open rebellion occurs when someone declares the themselves no longer under the rule of another.  Robb did that.  Tywin did not.  You have zero textual evidence that Tywin "planned the ambush" of the men sent to bring Gregor to justice.  

Ah, I love it when idiots try and match wits.

Only six Winterfell men remained of the twenty her father had sent west with Beric Dondarrion, Harwin told her, and they were scattered. "It was a trap, milady. Lord Tywin sent his Mountain across the Red Fork with fire and sword, hoping to draw your lord father. He planned for Lord Eddard to come west himself to deal with Gregor Clegane. If he had he would have been killed, or taken prisoner and traded for the Imp, who was your lady mother's captive at the time. Only the Kingslayer never knew Lord Tywin's plan, and when he heard about his brother's capture he attacked your father in the streets of King's Landing."

And there you have it, straight from the author.  Try again next time.

Moreover, Tywin's assault on the Riverlands and the Hand of the King is both de facto and de jure illegal.  Robb, on the other hand, is responding to a legitimate provocation - the Lannisters imprisoned the Lord of Winterfell with no just cause.  Catelyn, at the very least, surrounds her arrest of Tyrion with the formalities of legal due process, even if you think she was wrong to do it.  Ned's arrest is a coup, pure and simple, and a violation of his rights as the Lord of Winterfell besides.  And there is precedent; the last time a Lord of Winterfell was imprisoned and then killed, it sparked the (100% morally and legally justified) beginning of Robert's Rebellion

15 hours ago, DarkBastard said:

The fact that you think Tywin a moron is proof that you don't truly understand these characters as written.

Full stop.  Mike drop

No, quite the opposite.  It's proof that you don't (and it's spelled "mic" as in "microphone").  Tywin is a failure.  Everything he's done in his life is crumbling, which is why GRRM goes through the narrative trouble to tell us his body is rotting in death, as a metaphor for his legacy.  His kids are destroying everything he worked to build.  His one talented son, who he hated, is coming back to end the rest of his family and take over the family name Tywin so begrudged him.  His political "successes", like the Red Wedding, will be the death of House Lannister.  His lack of affection and parenting for his kids mean that they never truly loved him even as they try (and fail) to emulate him.  He wanted to be feared, and not loved, and now it's all falling apart.  Whereas Ned, the political "neophyte" taught his kids values and loved them, and in return, they're going to save the world and rebuild the new one.  They love each other and want to get home to each other, where Tywin's kids increasingly hate each other and are tearing his legacy apart.

I understand that grasping underlying themes like that is tough, so I don't expect you to understand.  So keep buying into the "Tywin is a genius" narrative.  But at the end of the day, he's just an amoral ass whose only accomplishment was beating everyone else to the bottom of the ethics barrel.  Is he really a genius if his actions have undermined the entire social fabric of Westeros, for literally no gain?

So yeah.  Tywin's a failure, and his actions in the Riverlands are stupid.  If Robert isn't killed by the boar at exactly that right time, Tywin ends up with his head on a spike, and House Lannister ends up pretty wrecked, because Robert now has proof that Tywin is breaking his peace, and has Ned to give him the spine and sense of responsibility to stand up and do something about it.

[DarkBastard]

49 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Only six Winterfell men remained of the twenty her father had sent west with Beric Dondarrion, Harwin told her, and they were scattered. "It was a trap, milady. Lord Tywin sent his Mountain across the Red Fork with fire and sword, hoping to draw your lord father. He planned for Lord Eddard to come west himself to deal with Gregor Clegane. If he had he would have been killed, or taken prisoner and traded for the Imp, who was your lady mother's captive at the time. Only the Kingslayer never knew Lord Tywin's plan, and when he heard about his brother's capture he attacked your father in the streets of King's Landing."

And there you have it, straight from the author.  Try again next time.

 

In writing, there's a difference between how an author provides facts to the reader, and how an author provides a character's perspective.

The author wrote it, but in the perspective of a man who was involved in the fight. Notice the quotation marks...I know that is a subtlety.  Had it been a part of the author's narrative, not in the perspective of a character I could agree with you.  Harwin was part of the fighting...not sitting among Tywin's council.  How would Harwin know what Tywin wanted?  It is speculation, my guess it's something he heard from the survivors of the fight and/or the suppositions of Dondarrion or Thoros.  Unless Gregor pulled up a chair and chatted with the boys, revealing all the details over a nice cup of tea before the fight.

Harwin said "If he had he would have been killed, or taken prisoner and traded for the Imp".  More speculation in my opinion, neither would make sense...

Lord Tywin seated himself. "You have the right of it about Stark. Alive, we might have used Lord Eddard to forge a peace with Winterfell and Riverrun, a peace that would have given us the time we need to deal with Robert's brothers. Dead . . . " His hand curled into a fist. "Madness. Rank madness."

Robert was dead and Joffrey was on the iron throne before Dondarrion and his host were ambushed by Gregor, do you think Joffrey would claim his grandfather was in open rebellion by killing the men a "traitor" sent to the Riverlands?

From a drooping sleeve, heavy with gilded scrollwork, he drew a parchment, unrolled it, and began to read a long list of names, commanding each in the name of king and council to present themselves and swear their fealty to Joffrey. Failing that, they would be adjudged traitors, their lands and titles forfeit to the throne.
 
The names he read made Sansa hold her breath. Lord Stannis Baratheon, his lady wife, his daughter. Lord Renly Baratheon. Both Lord Royces and their sons. Ser Loras Tyrell. Lord Mace Tyrell, his brothers, uncles, sons. The red priest, Thoros of Myr. Lord Beric Dondarrion...

Never said Tywin was a genius, just that he isn't a "moron".  That is an honor for someone else...

[DarkBastard]

At the heart of our disagreement here is that you believe he is a moron.  

mo·ron

ˈmôrˌän/

noun

1. a stupid person.

   synonyms:

   fool, idiot, ass, blockhead, dunce, dolt, ignoramus, imbecile, cretin, dullard, simpleton, clod

To be candid, we are both morons for arguing so much about this.  However, if you do rely upon the opinions of the characters, so be it:

Tywin Lannister was as much fox as lion. If indeed he'd sent Ser Gregor to burn and pillage—and Ned did not doubt that he had—he'd taken care to see that he rode under cover of night, without banners, in the guise of a common brigand. Should Riverrun strike back, Cersei and her father would insist that it had been the Tullys who broke the king's peace, not the Lannisters. The gods only knew what Robert would believe.

If the Lannisters come up the Neck, the crannogmen will bleed them every step of the way, but Galbart Glover says Lord Tywin is too smart for that, and Roose Bolton agrees. 

The northerners would be exhausted after their long sleepless march. Tyrion wondered what the boy had been thinking. Did he think to take them unawares while they slept? Small chance of that; whatever else might be said of him, Tywin Lannister was no man's fool.

Tyrion saw a glimmer of gold as the light shone off his father's pupils, but he could not have said whether the look was one of approval or disgust. Lord Tywin was oft quiet in council, preferring to listen before he spoke, a habit Tyrion himself tried to emulate.

For Tywin Lannister—Lord of Casterly Rock, Warden of the West, father to Queen Cersei, Ser Jaime the Kingslayer, and Tyrion the Imp, and grandfather to Joffrey Baratheon, the new-crowned boy king—was the true danger, Catelyn believed.

"True enough," Ser Brynden admitted. "And Tywin Lannister is no man's fool.

This lot will be sellswords, freeriders, and green boys from the stews of Lannisport. Ser Stafford must see that they are armed and drilled before he dare risk battle . . . and make no mistake, Lord Tywin is not the Kingslayer. He will not rush in heedless

Casterly Rock is too strong, and Lord Tywin too cunning by half. 

Those are just a few examples from AGOT and ACOK

Tywin, as the Hand of King Aerys, from TWOIAF (not in the perspective of a character, but in the narrative of the author):

And yet the Seven Kingdoms prospered greatly during the first decade of his reign, for the King's Hand was all that the king himself was not - diligent, decisive, tireless, fiercely intelligent, just and stern.

Lastly, from our very own wiki here:

Tywin is a calculating, intelligent, politically astute, ruthless, and controlling man. He dedicates his life and efforts towards maintaining the Lannisters' prestige, and ensuring House Lannister is respected, or at least feared. He is a proven battle commander and politician, and has a very powerful presence combined with an intimidating gaze.

[cpg2016]

3 hours ago, DarkBastard said:

The author wrote it, but in the perspective of a man who was involved in the fight. Notice the quotation marks...I know that is a subtlety.  Had it been a part of the author's narrative, not in the perspective of a character I could agree with you.  Harwin was part of the fighting...not sitting among Tywin's council.  How would Harwin know what Tywin wanted?  It is speculation, my guess it's something he heard from the survivors of the fight and/or the suppositions of Dondarrion or Thoros.  Unless Gregor pulled up a chair and chatted with the boys, revealing all the details over a nice cup of tea before the fight.

I'm well aware of the concept of an unreliable narrator.  In this case, an intelligent man would consider the narrative context.  GRRM wants us to have this information.  There is literally no reason for Harwin to tell this to Arya except that we, as readers, are being told something.  Why bother, otherwise?  Harwin isn't a protagonist or even anything more than a blip, so establishing his unreliability is meaningless.  When Littlefinger disseminates bad info, and Catelyn spreads it around, there is a narrative purpose to that, and the characters doing it are major players in the story.  When no one knows what the hell is going on in a battle, or war zone, or whatever it may be, there is a reason for bad info and rumors to be spreading around.  It heightens narrative tension, and it's absurd to think these characters wouldn't be thinking these thoughts, or having these conversations.  Not so here; Harwin could just say "we were ambushed and it sucked and here we are," and it would have the same impact on the story.  Which means GRRM has made a conscious decision to include this in his published text, which means we should pay attention.  The onus is on you to show a reason Harwin would be wrong.

Basically, if you don't believe this story (and it's okay not to, I guess) you have to provide a valid reason to doubt it besides "I don't think it's true".  Does Harwin being wrong add something to the scene?  No.  Does it advance the plot or change the meta narrative?  No.  Does the character have a plausible reason to know this?  Yes.  He's been catching and hanging Lannisters for a while, it stands to reason they might have extracted this info from someone.  Also, they know Tywin was with Clegane at the ambush (they saw his banners, presumably), so it isn't a huge stretch.  Tywin might have told his men to capture Ned if possible, which explains why the BWB has the info.

3 hours ago, DarkBastard said:

Robert was dead and Joffrey was on the iron throne before Dondarrion and his host were ambushed by Gregor, do you think Joffrey would claim his grandfather was in open rebellion by killing the men a "traitor" sent to the Riverlands?

I am not entirely sure this is true, but even if it is, no one would know it yet, so what's the difference?  Beric only receives word of Joffrey's ascension after the ambush, which is when they become the BWB.  Stands to reason Tywin is in the same boat, information-wise.  They're both acting under the assumption that Robert is alive when they concoct and execute their respective plans.

4 hours ago, DarkBastard said:

Never said Tywin was a genius, just that he isn't a "moron".  That is an honor for someone else...

Apparently you.

[DarkBastard]

Well, it's been an absolute blast.  I hope you get extra pudding before the orderlies put you down for the night.  At least you're out of the straitjacket!  Haha