The Sphinx is the Riddle

[The Mother of The Others]

Re:  Aemon's epic quote of the Sphinx being not the Riddler but the Riddle.

This big meaningful line refers to the big meaningful sphinx statues  at the citadel.  It does not refer to Alleras whom Aemon never met nor knew she existed.  The sphinx means the hidden agenda of the citadel & maesters.

 Literally, when they were built, the sphinx statues "probably" meant that the wise men of the citadel stood guard over the secret of how Man might jump into the deep end of the magic pool to bring about real change, and not just the "change" Obama spoke of.  This magic so deeply mingles that it mangles the people who partake.  Mentally, i mean, but also maybe their try at having kids then produces occasional chimera creatures, unviable fetus horrors, etc. 

This is the trick to reaching out and forming a bond with magic and magical beasts.   The craft practiced by the Children, the dragonriders, the skinchangers.  It changes you is the problem the citadel observed, until they concluded the best use of this secret was to never use it, guard it rather into extinction, and up with science!- -the better more stable hope for Man and Womankind.  Which is right.   But also sometimes lethally wrong for our species, like now, when, on a magical planet, one must sometimes use magic to survive a magic onslaught.   the same way vegans must eventually admit they're now anemic and should seek a source of those nutrients too long missing from their bodies.   The maesters have made us a very strong mundane society in most respects  but have deSphinxed us, and Jon & Sam would suggest we're grown rickety in our society's immune defense against the 1000 year storm we now face.  

We need to reSphinxify and boost our magical involvement, multiply the number of magic users and yes maybe also the number of people strangely sacrificed to curry favor with magical forces, if that's what's necessary.  Reforge the original dragon pacts that gave rise to the targ dynasty, maybe this time opening them up for additional families, or reaching out to additional creatures and forces beyond the familiar dragons and wolves.   This could throw the gates open for meaningful human participation in the long winter's coming supernatural struggle.  A difference maker?  Like when Jesu opened Judaism to the gentiles to get a booming influx of converts.   Just the type of flood of change the citadel fears.   So they stand guard over the magic dam too severely instead, letting nothing leak out..... until their stingy ways tempt someone like Euron to come break the dam.  

[Curled Finger]

That's an interesting take on it.   I agree in principal with your arguments in favor of "releasing" arcane knowledge.  I'm just not sure it's a good thing given the mindsets of the characters in story.  I concede Westeros is a magic place.   A very low level magic, but magic nonetheless.   I find the alchemists blaming the dragons for the resurgence of their magic to be telling.   Are dragons the most magic thing?  

We've got telepathy in all it's forms in our own world.   Is it magic or simply a part of all our brains we don't know enough about?  We've got ghosts and accurate prediction and madness as well.  I never thought our world was particularly magic.  Westeros or Planetos is pushed to be a young world, commonly thought to be only 10 to 12,000 years old.  But it seems to have progressed much more slowly than our world and there are undeniably magical things, people and places there.  

Randyll Tarly bathed Sam in some animal's blood to grow his courage, Cersei snuck out to see a fortune teller and there is always Varamyr with his ability to inhabit multiple creatures.  The problem here is that none of these characters are particularly "good guys".   Bran or even Marwyn's type of magic would be a seriously scary thing in any of their hands.  The Faceless Men are generally accepted as a branch of the Iron Bank.  The alchemists operate out in the open.   I think my point is that if there is a conspiracy to suppress magic the Maesters aren't doing a very good job of it.  

Are the abilities to skinchange and ride dragons really something the masses need?  Is magic the key to vanquishing the Others?

[The Fattest Leech]

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That's an interesting take on it.   I agree in principal with your arguments in favor of "releasing" arcane knowledge.  I'm just not sure it's a good thing given the mindsets of the characters in story.  I concede Westeros is a magic place.   A very low level magic, but magic nonetheless.   I find the alchemists blaming the dragons for the resurgence of their magic to be telling.   Are dragons the most magic thing?  

We've got telepathy in all it's forms in our own world.   Is it magic or simply a part of all our brains we don't know enough about?  We've got ghosts and accurate prediction and madness as well.  I never thought our world was particularly magic.  Westeros or Planetos is pushed to be a young world, commonly thought to be only 10 to 12,000 years old.  But it seems to have progressed much more slowly than our world and there are undeniably magical things, people and places there.  

Randyll Tarly bathed Sam in some animal's blood to grow his courage, Cersei snuck out to see a fortune teller and there is always Varamyr with his ability to inhabit multiple creatures.  The problem here is that none of these characters are particularly "good guys".   Bran or even Marwyn's type of magic would be a seriously scary thing in any of their hands.  The Faceless Men are generally accepted as a branch of the Iron Bank.  The alchemists operate out in the open.   I think my point is that if there is a conspiracy to suppress magic the Maesters aren't doing a very good job of it.  

Are the abilities to skinchange and ride dragons really something the masses need?  Is magic the key to vanquishing the Others?

I agree with this. The one part I do see differently is that is seems the Citadel wants to covet the magic for their own use or control. If we set old gods type magics aside for a second and take a look at the flaming fires on top of the towers between the Citadel and the Hightowers, well, they are described in the story as "beacons", and as Mel says, warmth calls to warmth, and over in Meereen we see Dany's two flying flamethrowers roosting at the top of the pyramids already.

Something funny is going to go down between the dragons, maybe Krakens, and the Citadel types.

Or not

[Free Northman Reborn]

I have long stated that ASOIAF's ancient history hints strongly at genetic/biological hybridization of species (with magic perhaps substituting technology in achieving it). Bio engineering in Planetos's distant past seems to have been rampant. The merging of species, the linking of beasts to men, and various other such weird experiments.

Now, a Sphinx represents exactly that. A hybrid of multiple different species. I think this somehow lies at the heart of the imbalance that affects the world of Planetos. Something upset the natural balance, and led to the mess they face today. And maybe the Sphinx is the riddle that explains it all.

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

The "Maesters" are at work in our world, too, suppressing magic (spirituality and the use of spiritual forces).  But it's as real here as it is in Planetos, actually.  Just no dragons (yet).

[Curled Finger]

15 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I have long stated that ASOIAF's ancient history hints strongly at genetic/biological hybridization of species (with magic perhaps substituting technology in achieving it). Bio engineering in Planetos's distant past seems to have been rampant. The merging of species, the linking of beasts to men, and various other such weird experiments.

Now, a Sphinx represents exactly that. A hybrid of multiple different species. I think this somehow lies at the heart of the imbalance that affects the world of Planetos. Something upset the natural balance, and led to the mess they face today. And maybe the Sphinx is the riddle that explains it all.

I vacillate between embracing this idea whole heartedly and pshawing it.   We get so much conflicting information from the text alone never mind what some of our brothers and sisters here in the forum come up with.   I believe the Sothoryi are described as having brindled skin, the males resembling pigs more than humans.   The female cannot reproduce with any other race(?) the pregnancies ending in stillborns that sound very much like the Targ babies.   Then there is the big question of how dragons, a hybrid flying worm, came to be.   Was it the mingling of wyvern and blood magic of the Targs?   Yah, this is where I am with you completely.  Then I step back and ask where the technology comes from.  Is it technology at all or some Mengele in Auschwitz playing at god?   Wasn't it our 1st conversation about literal blood of the dragon, brother?   Is this the knowledge Qyburn is after?   What is a shadow baby, exactly?   Go ahead, I'm ready for a good head spin. 

[Curled Finger]

23 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I agree with this. The one part I do see differently is that is seems the Citadel wants to covet the magic for their own use or control. If we set old gods type magics aside for a second and take a look at the flaming fires on top of the towers between the Citadel and the Hightowers, well, they are described in the story as "beacons", and as Mel says, warmth calls to warmth, and over in Meereen we see Dany's two flying flamethrowers roosting at the top of the pyramids already.

Something funny is going to go down between the dragons, maybe Krakens, and the Citadel types.

Or not

I think a lot of folks think the maesters hope to hoard magic for their own exclusive use.   With folks like the Farwynds, Swanns, Starks COTF, Others, Red Priests, Shadow Binders, Zombies and Targs running around magic doesn't appear to have met containable or manageable levels yet.   What happens when they run out of Valyrian Steel for their chains?   Do they cease pursuit of the higher mysteries or confiscate the swords and daggers?  

As to your something funny going on...is it possible those glass candles can send messages to dragons or kraken?   Maybe it is a GPS system of sorts?  

[Maester Crypt]

I think it is about bloodlines. The discussion they are having about apples and dragons is symbolic of the "dragon bloodline." The sphinx cores one apple with an arrow, splits the next one(which is wormy) in half and third apple is missed and splashes in the river untouched. The wormy apple is the bloodline the Targaryans carry and the one that splashes is the pure dragon bloodline left.

Generally when you slice an apple in half at its core, you are left with a five pointed star in each half and each point contains a seed. I can't truly yet put a comprehensive structure to what is occurring in the books. I think ASOIAF is both the story that we see with our two eyes but if your third one becomes open, he is also telling us ASOIAF that has spanned perhaps ten to fourteen thousand years.

Samwell V AFFC  

The gates of the Citadel were flanked by a pair of towering green sphinxes with the bodies of lions, the wings of eagles, and the tails of serpents. 

Daenerys X AGOT

She saw crimson firelions and great yellow serpents and unicorns made of pale blue flame;

I think the green represents the seed bloodline. The lions, eagles and serpents are the champions(AA) that arose by mixing with that bloodline.

Daenerys or the Targaryans  are the product of those mixed bloodlines through the ages.

Whether it was from the beginning or more likely sometime after Dawn, the bloodline got corrupted intentionally or by chance. The Citadel or factions within are the likely cause of the corruption in their efforts to produce another champion through selective breeding and obtain dominance over the world. 

This is why the Targaryans always failed at hatching dragons, their bloodline is not pure and thus their blood doesn't have enough power to awake such a beast. The hatching of Daenerys dragons was caused by the killing of the King of Winter Ned Stark. It was his death that paid for the life of the Dragons. Daenerys just misread the sign of the comet along with all of us.

Of course it is all theory!

 

[The Fattest Leech]

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think a lot of folks think the maesters hope to hoard magic for their own exclusive use.   With folks like the Farwynds, Swanns, Starks COTF, Others, Red Priests, Shadow Binders, Zombies and Targs running around magic doesn't appear to have met containable or manageable levels yet. 

I agree with this, and I think this may be why there is a maester planted in each house- not assigned to a family per se. That means that each house/castle/whatever is already planted with a faction of the Citadel no matter who occupies the house. That means regime changes don't matter, as in Theon taking WInterfell, because they are there to serve the Citadel over the family. Heck, even Aemon had two oaths under his belt but he explains his maester oath comes first.

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 

What happens when they run out of Valyrian Steel for their chains?   Do they cease pursuit of the higher mysteries or confiscate the swords and daggers?  

It is odd enough that they allow the practice of magic to the lower branches of training. I think it is possibly discouraged on purpose (smoke in mirrors) to steer away those who are timid with the art, leaving only the strong ones to progress and succeed <<<--- admitted speculation here.

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

As to your something funny going on...is it possible those glass candles can send messages to dragons or kraken?   Maybe it is a GPS system of sorts?  

yup. They essentially are really large glass candles.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Maester Crypt said:

I think it is about bloodlines. The discussion they are having about apples and dragons is symbolic of the "dragon bloodline." The sphinx cores one apple with an arrow, splits the next one(which is wormy) in half and third apple is missed and splashes in the river untouched. The wormy apple is the bloodline the Targaryans carry and the one that splashes is the pure dragon bloodline left.

The apples here are symbolic and under discussed. Thanks for bringing them up.

I am off for some coffee and a reread of that prologue to get in to this a little more.

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 hours ago, Maester Crypt said:

 

This is why the Targaryans always failed at hatching dragons, their bloodline is not pure and thus their blood doesn't have enough power to awake such a beast. The hatching of Daenerys dragons was caused by the killing of the King of Winter Ned Stark. It was his death that paid for the life of the Dragons. Daenerys just misread the sign of the comet along with all of us.

 

Would this mean that by killing Stannis (the storm king), Euron would be able to raise a kraken from the deep?  Probably not, but it's fun to think about. 

[The Mother of The Others]

14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Heck, even Aemon had two oaths under his belt but he explains his maester oath comes first.

When he spoke of going to Danny to be her maester, doesn't that have to be because he didn't trust the other maesters to do the job right for a dragonlord?   Because the Riddle of their behavior has been that they've acted with stealth to depower the dragonlords  and wipe out the dragons through acts of sedition.  Maybe it's  socially responsible dragon eradication, but it still counts as a buzzkill and as an abuse of their Targ clients' trust.  

 Aemon's family loyalty maybe pulled even again with his maester vows at the end.  He saw the two as being in balance, that he could do both, or needed to try.  To correct for how his Order was out of balance, or at least he worried they'd be targeting Daenerys in a way he felt was unfair.   I wonder if Marwyn is driven by the same desire to save Danee from the rest of the maesters, or is he the sort of false friend Aemon feared would maester for Daenerys?   And what's with the Faceless sneaking in right under dude's nose!   That doesn't inspire confidence. Alleras does though.  But should she?  Is she just another antidragonist or does letting some apples escape her bow imply a dragon will too ?  Is Pate II a butthead or the actual hero of the saga?   

We should probably check to see if anyone has formally requested Winds of Winter be published.  Maybe that's the holdup!

[aryagonnakill#2]

Aemon never met Alleras/Sarella in person, but her and Marwyn were watching him with a glass candle, the mechanics of which we see with Quaithe appearing in Danys dream.  This allows the people to communicate, but with Aemons health deteriorating and being spoken to in dreams, he likely didn't fully understand or couldn't communicate it properly if he did.

That being said, I think it has multiple meanings, and likely does refer to a secret the citadel holds, as well as Alleras having a secret identity.

[The Sleeper]

Maester Aemon being a Targaryen gets prophetic dreams, something he confirms himself. The refference could very well be about Alleras/Sallera without him even knowing it.

[Maester Crypt]

I was wondering within that prologue Pate was accused of theft by Gormon. Could this be referring to Lord Peake accusing Ser Glendon of stealing the dragons egg in A Mystery Knight?

[Lost Melnibonean]

38 minutes ago, Maester Crypt said:

I was wondering within that prologue Pate was accused of theft by Gormon. Could this be referring to Lord Peake accusing Ser Glendon of stealing the dragons egg in A Mystery Knight?

You're thinking the alchemist is trying to steal a dragon's egg from the Citadel, or looking for some way to hatch the one Euron might have paid them?  

[Maester Crypt]

25 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You're thinking the alchemist is trying to steal a dragon's egg from the Citadel, or looking for some way to hatch the one Euron might have paid them?  

No I was thinking more the dwarves and Maynard. It is suspected they were the ones who took it and I thought it reminded me of this, but it could be my imagination

But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany's gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting . . .

I haven't really thought about it too deeply, still trying to solve a riddle...

[Lost Melnibonean]

10 minutes ago, Maester Crypt said:

No I was thinking more the dwarves and Maynard. It is suspected they were the ones who took it and I thought it reminded me of this, but it could be my imagination

But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany's gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting . . .

I haven't really thought about it too deeply, still trying to solve a riddle...

Not sure I even know what the riddle is that you're posing. 

[sondrer]

I agree with most peolpe and believe the Sphinx is Arellas, but it might be a bot too obvious from GRRM.

The quote from Aemon has been one of the things Ive had in the back of my head since my first readthrough of the books.

An other take on the riddle, which i dont have much background for, is that it might be someone more suprising.

Ive read that it was formerly believed that a Sphinx was a deamon of destruction and bad luck, and that it will go ill (death and worse) with the people who doesent solve the riddles.

 

One of the characters famous for his riddles (which is both difficult to solve, and foreshaddows bad things for the people its concerning) is Patchface. 

 

Maybe it could mean something like: "Patchface (who he really is, where he comes from, his powers) is the riddle......and not the riddler". And maybe understanding that means that they can use him for something. Aemon has probably met him during his stay at Castle black.

 

I know its kind of out there, but just thought it might be something there, and maybe someone with more intimate knowledge of the book could shed some more light on why it might be right or wrong. Feel free to shoot the theory down :)

 

S

 

 

[The Gizzard of Oz]

There is also a Sphinx in Essos.  They're not exclusively found at the Citadel.  

A sphinx is a mixture of different species.  Families have mascots of different species to represent their houses.  The sphinx is a person who comes from two noble families.  Which is just about every person of high birth.  A person with a lion mother and a stag father would qualify as a sphinx.  It is probably Archmaester Marwyn.