The Diversity Pipeline

[TerraPrime]

On 9/29/2017 at 3:24 PM, Lew Theobald said:

Your response was aimed at my statement that "I do not believe, as a matter of faith, that more 'diversity' is automatically and always better; that any relative degree of homogeneity or imbalance or outcome is always bad".  I made this statement in response to your claim that the benefits of diversity were something I needed to accept as a "first principle".  

All this was in the context of a discussion of the 20% in S.T.E.M. and what should be done about it.

The point is that we have evidence to show that increasing diversity increases productivity and performance. Your counter-point is that we don't know that it will hold true for STEM fields, right? So, how or when will we be sure, according to your standards, if we don't actually begin succeeding in increasing diversity in STEM fields? 

 

On 9/29/2017 at 3:24 PM, Lew Theobald said:

Oh, I've read the executive summary, and beyond.  But where in it is an answer to the question I asked you?  What are you proposing we do, that we are not doing already?  And please keep in mind that this report is already 7 years old.

It's in the summary you read. They listed the observed obstacles and documented it, and in most cases, also enumerated remedial efforts that have been made. 

 

On 9/29/2017 at 3:24 PM, Lew Theobald said:

If you tell me what exactly you propose we do to fix this problem (that we are not already doing), then, and only then, will tell you if I support it or not, and whether I think it will do more harm than good.

I have offered you a list. The best cogent response you gave was hashtag AllStudentsMatter. 

If you're waiting for more details, like a step-by-step program proposal, then I will not be able to oblige. I am not interested in writing a program proposal to remediate barriers against minority students in STEM fields to be reviewed by someone who doesn't even think there is a problem for minority students in STEM. 

[TerraPrime]

On 9/29/2017 at 6:11 PM, Lily Valley said:

You've never been an engineering major. 

That's fair. 

Engineering, physics, and math, remain the more recalcitrant sectors in STEM. 

Also, I didn't mean to come across as dismissing the existence of people who do wish to stymie the efforts of female students on account of their not-male-ness. These people absolutely exist. These people, however, tend to hide behind various excuses instead of realizing or admitting to their sexism. They'd argue that it's not sexist to deny the course transfer request because they wouldn't have done it for male students, either, totally ignoring the reality that single-parent households are, by far, predominated by females. 

[TerraPrime]

On 9/30/2017 at 3:31 PM, Altherion said:

On the one hand, there is the overt and official discrimination against certain groups (it is strongest against white men, but is not limited to them). 

Okay. 

[Lily Valley]

2 hours ago, TerraPrime said:

That's fair. 

Engineering, physics, and math, remain the more recalcitrant sectors in STEM. 

Also, I didn't mean to come across as dismissing the existence of people who do wish to stymie the efforts of female students on account of their not-male-ness. These people absolutely exist. These people, however, tend to hide behind various excuses instead of realizing or admitting to their sexism. They'd argue that it's not sexist to deny the course transfer request because they wouldn't have done it for male students, either, totally ignoring the reality that single-parent households are, by far, predominated by females. 

Terra, I wouldn't have even brought that little jewel up if the chair had even bothered.  He essentially thought I wasn't smart enough and was "doing me a favor" holding me back.  I understand your point, but it is really often much more blatant.  Yes, even now.  This asshole saw me a year later in the Science building and said, "What are YOU doing here?".  I am rather proud to say that I asked him the same question.

Edit:  Thanks for coming to stick up for us pal.  You too, @Kalbear.  Still not letting either of you off the hook.  Don't ever let up on me, either.

[TerraPrime]

2 hours ago, Lily Valley said:

I understand your point, but it is really often much more blatant.  Yes, even now. 

That's fair. 

[Kalbear]

3 hours ago, Lily Valley said:

Edit:  Thanks for coming to stick up for us pal.  You too, @Kalbear.  Still not letting either of you off the hook.  Don't ever let up on me, either.

Thanks! Or...sorry?

[Galactus]

I call everyone by their last name only and expect to be called "Professor or Ms. Valley"  Every year someone tries to get cute and call me by my first name.  A GASP can be audibly heard.  I WILL bring out that FACE.  Then I have a conversation in private.  I NEVER use a student's first name.  Never.

 

That's one of those cultural differences. I never addressed my professors with anything but their first name. Refusal to accept that (or to respond in kind) would read either as incredibly hostile or at "best" that the person is a foreigner. 

[Alarich II]

2 hours ago, Galactus said:

That's one of those cultural differences. I never addressed my professors with anything but their first name. Refusal to accept that (or to respond in kind) would read either as incredibly hostile or at "best" that the person is a foreigner. 

Cultural differences indeed: If a Prof doesn't volunteer his first name (like in an informal or small group setting) on his own (Please call me Bob) I would consider simply using his/her first name disrespectful because it assumes a familiarity that's not there. But then again in German, we have a distinctive formal and informal article from which to choose when we adress other people instead of a generic "you", and the usage of the first name also implies (except a few exceptions) the informal adress.

[karaddin]

Not just non-English languages though, I call all my lecturers and tutors by their first name and would expect the same in return. I'm not 100% I would have as an 18 year old though, but in Australian culture it would feel weird to be using the formal mode of address for casual conversation/questions when these people are now my peers or (in the case of tutors) often significantly younger than me. I'm also very clearly respectful in the way I'm framing it though, I have seen plenty of students who are not being respectful although I haven't typically seen how it gets shut down.

I honestly can't even attempt to engage with the idea that there isn't a huge amount of discrimination and harassment in IT, my own experiences alone are so dramatically enlightening on that front. Seeing the gulf between how I'm treated by those who knew the old me and those who only met me recently is illustrative of the point.

Lily - your rant made me just about cheer out loud.

[Lily Valley]

On 10/2/2017 at 7:39 AM, Galactus said:

 

That's one of those cultural differences. I never addressed my professors with anything but their first name. Refusal to accept that (or to respond in kind) would read either as incredibly hostile or at "best" that the person is a foreigner. 

Wow, that's interesting.  It varies around the US as well.  Our schools here in the South tend to be pretty formal.  The Catholic schools here are as old as the city and set the tradition in our schools.  Most of the students from New Orleans are accustomed to being called Mr. or Ms. Last Name.  Many of the schools follow this tradition and several schools have a uniform requirement that students have their last name embroidered on their shirts.  

Kids here address adults as Mr. or Ms. First name, so to me, that would be inappropriate.  These are adults and I am effectively their boss.  Giving them a more formal address shows respect and discourages "chumminess".  I need the latter because my teaching style is pretty casual plus I'm a woman.  My boss calls his students by their first name and they NEVER try to do the same.  I need the extra buffer.

[karaddin]

7 hours ago, Lily Valley said:

Wow, that's interesting.  It varies around the US as well.  Our schools here in the South tend to be pretty formal.  The Catholic schools here are as old as the city and set the tradition in our schools.  Most of the students from New Orleans are accustomed to being called Mr. or Ms. Last Name.  Many of the schools follow this tradition and several schools have a uniform requirement that students have their last name embroidered on their shirts.  

Kids here address adults as Mr. or Ms. First name, so to me, that would be inappropriate.  These are adults and I am effectively their boss.  Giving them a more formal address shows respect and discourages "chumminess".  I need the latter because my teaching style is pretty casual plus I'm a woman.  My boss calls his students by their first name and they NEVER try to do the same.  I need the extra buffer.

Ok see that is just completely different. In school we called our teachers by Mr. or Ms. Surname, not first name. I guess that difference explains the rest. For me to call someone 10 years younger than me "Mr. Surname" in an informal context would be infantilising myself.

[Whitestripe]

I'm about as far from STEM as I can get, but at my college, professors are generally "Professor Last Name" in entry level classes. Once you get to an upper level seminar and you've been working with that professor for several years, you can call him/her by their first name. I always refer to professors as "Professor Last Name" when speaking about them to a student. If they respond back with first name, I respond in the same. (Of course, I always call them by first name because I am a grown up and a colleague).  Most of my professorial friends are in the humanities, but the few that I have in the sciences (chemistry, physics, geology, and biology) say it works the same for them. 

For my children, I always call the teachers by Mr/Mrs/Ms Last Name in a school setting, even if I know them personally. I will call them by first name when not on campus, and I always refer to them by surname when speaking about them to my children. 

Often the college students call me Ms. Stripe, and I correct it to first name, because that's just how I roll. 

[Kalbear]

Really, as far as I can tell the only people who call professors by their first name are either TAs or students that they're having sex with. 

[DMC]

On 9/30/2017 at 11:24 AM, Lily Valley said:

Hahah.  My friend at River Parishes Community College teaches 14 every semester.  It's not unusual at Community Colleges in the Physical Sciences.  Every year the Chancellor makes some "argle-bargle nobody can teach more than 7 classes" speech.  We remind them that they offer the same money for teachers regardless of degree.  Physics and Chemistry are mandatory for just about everything.

Yeah.  This is actually exactly why I was originally hired after getting an MA.  Because it was cheaper than adding on classes for the already hired faculty.  So, I was basically a scab.  And they made one of the non-scabs "train" me.  Luckily we were still about the same age, and got along well, but, well, that's Florida!

On 9/30/2017 at 11:24 AM, Lily Valley said:

My classes are capped at 25, labs at 20 and I LOVE my students. They bust their asses for me.  The only thing that sucks is that we have no TA's for grading.  Midterm time is a real bitch.  

That's actually better than Florida - they have a cap but it was at 35 (I think?  Maybe 30) back when I was there a few years ago.  Obviously poly sci don't have no labs, but I hate lecturing in front of 100 people.  It's not scary, as many (including myself) think the first time, it's just deflating.

On 9/30/2017 at 11:24 AM, Lily Valley said:

He also teaches 10 and is the chair.  Many of his classes are online.  I do not teach online classes.  Ten is the most I can manage face to face and I really hate 10.  Eight is a cakewalk and I've never ever had as few as seven.

Hm...how do I say this.  In Orlando, there's many pervy guys teaching at community college.  There's also, actually, quite a bit of online classes which are entirely online - that's a great another great way to make money as a college "professor."  I will say, central Florida is filled with very attractive young women, many of whom dress in ways that's hard to ignore.  Obviously no excuse, but to be entirely honest at times I found myself thinking of that old Friends episode where they all think of Chandler at times.  Anyway, I was younger then, the age difference wouldn't really be creepy at all, and I don't know why I'm posting this.

On 9/30/2017 at 11:24 AM, Lily Valley said:

I don't want to derail this thread further than I already have.

Meh, from what I've read a lot of this thread should be derailed.  And anyway, I think this is, or at least was, a pretty salient discussion to the original topic.

[DMC]

On 10/2/2017 at 8:39 AM, Galactus said:

That's one of those cultural differences. I never addressed my professors with anything but their first name. Refusal to accept that (or to respond in kind) would read either as incredibly hostile or at "best" that the person is a foreigner. 

I dunno is it's necessarily a cultural difference.  As an undergrad, I would call professors "Dr." if I knew I had an interest in their recommendation and/or studying under them in grad school.  I suppose it'd also be a good way to kiss their ass as well.  As a grad student who has both TA'd and taught my own class, I can say it's funny what the undergrads will send me in emails.  As a premise my first name is Derek.  So, in emails I'll get "Professor Derek" or "Mr. Derek."  The second reminds me of Consuela from Family Guy.  I'll also get my last name in weird ways - as if they think it's my first name, like "Hey [Smith]."  My favorite, though, is from textbook companies, that call me "Dr. Derek."  That's my WWE name.  

[Lily Valley]

7 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Yeah.  This is actually exactly why I was originally hired after getting an MA.  Because it was cheaper than adding on classes for the already hired faculty.  So, I was basically a scab.  And they made one of the non-scabs "train" me.  Luckily we were still about the same age, and got along well, but, well, that's Florida!

That's actually better than Florida - they have a cap but it was at 35 (I think?  Maybe 30) back when I was there a few years ago.  Obviously poly sci don't have no labs, but I hate lecturing in front of 100 people.  It's not scary, as many (including myself) think the first time, it's just deflating.

Hm...how do I say this.  In Orlando, there's many pervy guys teaching at community college.  There's also, actually, quite a bit of online classes which are entirely online - that's a great another great way to make money as a college "professor."  I will say, central Florida is filled with very attractive young women, many of whom dress in ways that's hard to ignore.  Obviously no excuse, but to be entirely honest at times I found myself thinking of that old Friends episode where they all think of Chandler at times.  Anyway, I was younger then, the age difference wouldn't really be creepy at all, and I don't know why I'm posting this.

Meh, from what I've read a lot of this thread should be derailed.  And anyway, I think this is, or at least was, a pretty salient discussion to the original topic.

Ugh.  The age difference doesn't matter as much as the power differential.  Women are in school for an education.  I was harassed by two different instructors as an undergrad.  One was a Philosophy teacher who tracked me down at work after I finished his class.  The other was a young instructor who initially chatted me up at work and then decided to track me down at school.  He wound up cornering me in a stairwell twice and I had to go to my chair about it.  It was scary and humiliating.

I like to look at boobs as much as the next person, so I give myself a pep talk before fall semester starts (when it's still 100 degrees and everyone is dressed accordingly).  It goes like this, "DON'T LOOK AT BOOBS.  DON'T LOOK AT BOOBS.  DON'T LOOK AT BOOBS."  Then I go to class and  I DON'T LOOK AT MY STUDENTS' BOOBS.

 

[lessthanluke]

10 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Really, as far as I can tell the only people who call professors by their first name are either TAs or students that they're having sex with. 

I didn't even know the surnames of most of my lecturers. Always first names after about the age of 16.

[Kalbear]

4 hours ago, lessthanluke said:

I didn't even know the surnames of most of my lecturers. Always first names after about the age of 16.

Man, you were getting BUSY

[DMC]

On 10/4/2017 at 8:51 AM, Lily Valley said:

I like to look at boobs as much as the next person, so I give myself a pep talk before fall semester starts (when it's still 100 degrees and everyone is dressed accordingly).  It goes like this, "DON'T LOOK AT BOOBS.  DON'T LOOK AT BOOBS.  DON'T LOOK AT BOOBS."  Then I go to class and  I DON'T LOOK AT MY STUDENTS' BOOBS.

Right, this is exactly what I was referring to with the Friends/Chandler reference.  Basically, I was trying to express (poorly) that it was particularly difficult in central Florida both due to the climate and the saturation of very attractive women in the area.  Also, I never had a problem while lecturing, but I tend to take the "just look at the back of the room" approach, which by all accounts has worked, and the back wall was always disappointingly flat.  With class discussions it's similar - there's always too much on my mind to even think about checking out.  The problem was in one-on-one meetings, in which at times I was talking to literal models in very little clothes and kept on thinking of Austin Powers' "Margaret Thatcher on a cold day" to maintain eye contact.

Anyway, the reason I drunkenly brought it up was this:

On 10/4/2017 at 8:51 AM, Lily Valley said:

The age difference doesn't matter as much as the power differential.  Women are in school for an education.  I was harassed by two different instructors as an undergrad.  One was a Philosophy teacher who tracked me down at work after I finished his class.  The other was a young instructor who initially chatted me up at work and then decided to track me down at school.  He wound up cornering me in a stairwell twice and I had to go to my chair about it.  It was scary and humiliating.

I saw quite a bit of this in my community college days and it bothered me.  Maybe it was due to Florida in general, maybe it was due to the specific institution - or even my "department."  Regardless, there was nothing I witnessed that I could report or even really bring up in an accusatory fashion, but let's just say there were a handful of guys I do not want to work around again.

[Lily Valley]

33 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Right, this is exactly what I was referring to with the Friends/Chandler reference.  Basically, I was trying to express (poorly) that it was particularly difficult in central Florida both due to the climate and the saturation of very attractive women in the area.  Also, I never had a problem while lecturing, but I tend to take the "just look at the back of the room" approach, which by all accounts has worked, and the back wall was always disappointingly flat.  With class discussions it's similar - there's always too much on my mind to even think about checking out.  The problem was in one-on-one meetings, in which at times I was talking to literal models in very little clothes and kept on thinking of Austin Powers' "Margaret Thatcher on a cold day" to maintain eye contact.

Anyway, the reason I drunkenly brought it up was this:

I saw quite a bit of this in my community college days and it bothered me.  Maybe it was due to Florida in general, maybe it was due to the specific institution - or even my "department."  Regardless, there was nothing I witnessed that I could report or even really bring up in an accusatory fashion, but let's just say there were a handful of guys I do not want to work around again.

I hear things about our humanities department that are unsettling.  As to the bolded, I'm going to vivisect the definition of a "literal model in very little clothes" at a later time.  I'll start with "literal model" and let my betters touch the "very little clothes" bit.

I biked my son to school and then myself to school with a booksack.  Guess how much I was thinking about what I was wearing.  Guess.  It was sometimes August and it was sometimes January.

I'm not saying it's your job to report stuff that you're not sure is a problem, but it IS your job to ignore your students bodies.  Their sweaty, stank, boobalicious, intimidatingly tall, blue haired, badly clad, bad-breathed bodies.  Staring at the wall is crap.  It's a cop-out.

A "literal model" ?  I assume you mean a professional model.  You're also teaching professional strippers, carpenters, beggars, nurses, former Comp Sci and IT looking for a new career, and the whole gamut of scintillating and disgusting humanity.  I won't even mention that elusive unicorn of "most discriminated against" in this response.  They are also in your classroom, sucking up oxygen that some of your other students don't dare even ask for.  All of them deserve better than a wall-eyed stare.   They all deserve to get eye contact and engagement from their instructor.  I'm going to leave it there.

Not one F-bomb!  :preens: