Freewill: an evolved homo sapiens sapiens ability, one shared with many other species.

[Egalitarianism Always]

Those with conservative political views tend to have larger amygdalae, the amygdalae has to do with the expression of fear and processes everything as fear-inducing stimuli for self gain. It is a region of the brain that sits right on top of the reptilian brain stem.

Evolved humans have a larger volume of grey matter in the anterior cingulate cortex, it is part of the frontal lobe where higher-level reasoning and decision making occurs.  In 'The Astonishing Hypothesis', Francis Crick identifies the anterior cingulate, to be specific the anterior cingulate sulcus, as a likely candidate for the center of free will in humans.

So conservatives have less freewill than more evolved humans, it is why they seek control, their enlarged amygdalae 'justifies' this by processing everything through the feelings of fear.  On the other hand evolved humans rely on the frontal lobe, on reason and freewill.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Some folks say that Free Will is basically an illusion.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

TbW,

Wow, a backhanded way of claiming conservatives are less human that their "more evolved" counterparts.  That's never been used to ill effect in the past, now has it?

So conservatives have less freewill than more evolved humans, it is why they seek control, their enlarged amygdalae 'justifies' this by processing everything through the feelings of fear.  On the other hand evolved humans rely on the frontal lobe, on reason and freewill.

[denstorebog]

Welcome to the board, TbW. You should probably be aware that biased, unfounded claims like these are going to be challenged and scrutinized harder here than you're used to on Reddit.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Lol

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

5 minutes ago, Leap said:

Not less human, more human, and thus worse

I've seen posts you people wouldn't believe...

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Traveller between Worlds said:

Those with conservative political views tend to have larger amygdalae, the amygdalae has to do with the expression of fear and processes everything as fear-inducing stimuli for self gain. It is a region of the brain that sits right on top of the reptilian brain stem.

Citation needed, but as it turns out this is true. At least for the very small sample size among WEIRD people in the US. 

1 hour ago, Traveller between Worlds said:

Evolved humans have a larger volume of grey matter in the anterior cingulate cortex, it is part of the frontal lobe where higher-level reasoning and decision making occurs.

This does not appear to be true in any way, shape or form. First, defining 'evolved humans' isn't done, and larger volume certainly doesn't appear to be part of evolution. Now, a reasonably more accurate statement is that liberal people (again, small sample size) have a bigger ACC.

This, however, does not attempt to answer why this is the case, whether this development happens as a result of genetics or environment, or if it is applicable to other non-US cultures.

1 hour ago, Traveller between Worlds said:

  In 'The Astonishing Hypothesis', Francis Crick identifies the anterior cingulate, to be specific the anterior cingulate sulcus, as a likely candidate for the center of free will in humans.

This is true in the sense that Crick did this; what is left out is that the Astonishing Hypothesis has largely been discredited by both neuroscientists and psychologists, as well as being shown to be experimentally unsupported; consciousness does appear to have strong materialistic origins, but specific locations of such things as 'free will' are not well-supported and even the concept of free will is not experimentally supported.

1 hour ago, Traveller between Worlds said:

So conservatives have less freewill than more evolved humans

Citation needed on 'less freewill' and 'more evolved'.

1 hour ago, Traveller between Worlds said:

, it is why they seek control

This is the hypothesis, not a fact.

1 hour ago, Traveller between Worlds said:

, their enlarged amygdalae 'justifies' this by processing everything through the feelings of fear.

This is the other part of the hypothesis, not a fact. The easiest way to falsify this would be to simply show whether or not all humans process everything via fear, and fortunately we've already done that. It turns out that everyone uses fear.

1 hour ago, Traveller between Worlds said:

  On the other hand evolved humans

Citation needed.

1 hour ago, Traveller between Worlds said:

rely on the frontal lobe, on reason and freewill.

Rely on it for what? Existing? All humans use the frontal lobe, so all humans rely on it.

What is especially interesting to me is that this goes precisely against the argument that men and women are fundamentally identical, as statistically you are FAR more likely to be conservative if you are a male, especially a white male vs. a white female. This implies that men are 'less evolved' by TbW's terminology, yet they're also the same by an earlier argument. Both cannot be simultaneously true.

[Egalitarianism Always]

3 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Some folks say that Free Will is basically an illusion.

 

There's a lot of truth in that as we all have the structures of the limbic system which is where drives and automatic thoughts arise, the frontal lobe can modify those.

3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

TbW,

Wow, a backhanded way of claiming conservatives are less human that their "more evolved" counterparts.  That's never been used to ill effect in the past, now has it?

 

SSAE, not less human, less evolved human, we're all homo sapiens.  Tell me once a person with a psychopathic disorder is identified would you allow such a person hold a position of power?  I've read so many times they have traits which are highly sort after to become politicians etc.  We literally have less than 200 years left on this planet because a treatable condition is being lauded as an advantage.

Conservatism is a treatable disorder, what is happening is base drives, negative emotions, like fear and disgust, shown to register highly with conservatives, are so strong they warp the frontal lobes cognitive reasoning to it's will.

What is behind social cleansing, ethnic cleansing, eugenics, it's conservatism.  It is a difference with a basis in scientific fact unlike genderism, racism etc, where negative differences apply to as many individuals in all 'groups' though the expression can differ.

Treatment

Can the volume of grey matter in the anterior cingulate cortex be increased through use?  In my opinion yes it can in many cases.  Can the amygdalae be shrunken?  Also yes it can.  Genes have a permanent effect, but culture and choice modify these, because everyone has a frontal lobe after all.

Homo sapiens sapiens traditionally applies to modern anatomical humans, if there's scientific differences between groups then the differences an be modified if necessary.

4 hours ago, denstorebog said:

Welcome to the board, TbW. You should probably be aware that biased, unfounded claims like these are going to be challenged and scrutinized harder here than you're used to on Reddit.

Scientific facts, maybe you missed the Francis Crick book reference, you know the guy who co-discoverer of the structure of the DNA molecule.

 

4 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Lol

It was a joke, as we're all human, but it's been an idea which has been developing for quite a few years now, as is I'm both optimistic and also fuck this world is fucked, depends on how long we have truth be told.

[Ormond]

3 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Citation needed, but as it turns out this is true. At least for the very small sample size among WEIRD people in the US. 

 

I think the following quote from the discussion in the article is relevant:

Quote

 

However, it should be noted that every brain region, including those identified here, invariably participates in multiple psychological processes. It is therefore not possible to unambiguously infer from involvement of a particular brain area that a particular psychological process must be involved.

Although these conceptual links facilitate interpretations of the relationship between the brain structures and political orientation, our findings reflect a cross-sectional study of political attitudes and brain structure in a demographically relatively homogenous population of young adults. Therefore, the causal nature of such a relationship cannot be determined. Specifically, it requires a longitudinal study to determine whether the changes in brain structure that we observed lead to changes in political behavior or whether political attitudes and behavior instead result in changes of brain structure.

 

It would be really interesting here to study people like me who described ourselves as "conservative" when we were in our 20s (close to the age of participants in this study) but have moved toward the liberal side as we age, or those that have moved in the opposite direction. 

[mcbigski]

Thats the second phrenology sort of argument on the board in as many days.  Though the first might have been satire.

In some bright future we ll all have the proper sized centrally approved lobes.  So thats nice.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 hours ago, mcbigski said:

Thats the second phrenology sort of argument on the board in as many days.  Though the first might have been satire.

In some bright future we ll all have the proper sized centrally approved lobes.  So thats nice.

It's an attempt to claim "Science" shows those on the right are objectively less human than those on the left.  It's pretty shitty.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I might need to invoke Godwin's law on this before anyone brings us the comparison to Nazi Germany in this line of thinking 

[Seli]

5 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

It's an attempt to claim "Science" shows those on the right are objectively less human than those on the left.  It's pretty shitty.

Also a system that makes someone more or less human depending where one lives. A conservative in Europe will seem to be more liberal after moving to the US

[Jo498]

Some kind of "free will" is a prerequisite of rationality. So it can never be "disproved" experimentally because it is a pre-condition for planning, doing and interpreting experiments. If I am not free to follow a rational justification through, I cannot rationally justify anything. Roughly, I would always have to suspect (if per impossibile I *could* entertain such suspicions - because I might be determined not to) that I am (dis)agreeing with a rational argument not because I understand its logical correctness but because I am determined to (dis)agree. To save rationality while denying some kind of free will one needs to accept fairly outlandish prestabilized harmony ideas.

[Egalitarianism Always]

A scientific study for the differences between liberals and conservatives,

Political Orientations Are Correlated with Brain Structure in Young Adults

 

Quote

 

Highlights

• Political liberalism and conservatism were correlated with brain structure
• Liberalism was associated with the gray matter volume of anterior cingulate cortex
• Conservatism was associated with increased right amygdala size
• Results offer possible accounts for cognitive styles of liberals and conservatives

Summary

Substantial differences exist in the cognitive styles of liberals and conservatives on psychological measures [ 1 ]. Variability in political attitudes reflects genetic influences and their interaction with environmental factors [ 2, 3 ]. Recent work has shown a correlation between liberalism and conflict-related activity measured by event-related potentials originating in the anterior cingulate cortex [ 4 ]. Here we show that this functional correlate of political attitudes has a counterpart in brain structure. In a large sample of young adults, we related self-reported political attitudes to gray matter volume using structural MRI. We found that greater liberalism was associated with increased gray matter volume in the anterior cingulate cortex, whereas greater conservatism was associated with increased volume of the right amygdala. These results were replicated in an independent sample of additional participants. Our findings extend previous observations that political attitudes reflect differences in self-regulatory conflict monitoring [ 4 ] and recognition of emotional faces [ 5 ] by showing that such attitudes are reflected in human brain structure. Although our data do not determine whether these regions play a causal role in the formation of political attitudes, they converge with previous work [ 4, 6 ] to suggest a possible link between brain structure and psychological mechanisms that mediate political attitudes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

19 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

TbW,

Wow, a backhanded way of claiming conservatives are less human that their "more evolved" counterparts.  That's never been used to ill effect in the past, now has it?

 

SSAE, there's no scientific facts about the differences between the brains of other groups, they are all superficial like skin tone or height, or cultural like the differences between men and women.  Look under the surface and you will find:

Quote

 

There is no such thing as a "male brain" or a "female brain," new research finds.

Instead, men and women's brains are an unpredictable mishmash of malelike and femalelike features, the study concludes. Even in brain regions previously thought to show differences based on sex, variability is more common than consistency.

 

Your brain is a mosaic of male and female

There's no scientific studies showing scientific facts about differences between 'groups', there's scientific facts about the differences between conservatives and liberals.

Are Your Decisions from Your Evolved or Primitive Brain?

Quote

Decisions can be motivated by thoughtful consideration from our higher mind (frontal lobe/executive functions) or fear-based survival instincts (amygdala, impulses) from a more primitive mind.

 

[Egalitarianism Always]

 

Quote

 

This does not appear to be true in any way, shape or form. First, defining 'evolved humans' isn't done, and larger volume certainly doesn't appear to be part of evolution. Now, a reasonably more accurate statement is that liberal people (again, small sample size) have a bigger ACC.

 

Kalbear, the problem you have is this a direct quote from your link:

Quote

In a large sample of young adults, we related self-reported political attitudes to gray matter volume using structural MRI. We found that greater liberalism was associated with increased gray matter volume in the anterior cingulate cortex, whereas greater conservatism was associated with increased volume of the right amygdala.

I can't continue if you're going to lie.  You're making me double check your claims when I know they're lies, what happens when lies slip past?  No, thanks.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

The above paper appears to have been published by Colin Firth. Great Actor. Poor scientist.

[Kalbear]

6 hours ago, Jo498 said:

Some kind of "free will" is a prerequisite of rationality. So it can never be "disproved" experimentally because it is a pre-condition for planning, doing and interpreting experiments.

No, it isn't. The perception of free will is a requisite; one could argue quite well (and indeed, many people have) that rationality and experimentation are the result of millions of inputs that result in the output of 'I want to figure this out'. 

6 hours ago, Jo498 said:

If I am not free to follow a rational justification through, I cannot rationally justify anything. Roughly, I would always have to suspect (if per impossibile I *could* entertain such suspicions - because I might be determined not to) that I am (dis)agreeing with a rational argument not because I understand its logical correctness but because I am determined to (dis)agree. To save rationality while denying some kind of free will one needs to accept fairly outlandish prestabilized harmony ideas.

And yet this is one of the most basic common philosophical thought experiments, going back to Calvinist days. 

 

3 hours ago, Traveller between Worlds said:

 

Kalbear, the problem you have is this a direct quote from your link:

I can't continue if you're going to lie.  You're making me double check your claims when I know they're lies, what happens when lies slip past?  No, thanks.

How is that a lie? A sample of young adults from the US is not particularly representative of the US, much less the world. What ethnic backgrounds were they? What cultural backgrounds? What immigration background? Without considering these things the experiment is by its very nature an extremely small sample size. Especially concerning is 'young'. Is this a longitudinal study among 20-year olds across several decades? Nope. It's a slice in time of young adults. How do we know that young adults in the US now are similar to those 30 years ago? We don't; point of fact, we know for certain that due to dietary, environmental, ethnic backgrounds and self-selection issues they are most decidedly not. 

Furthermore, you still have not defined what 'more evolved' means, nor does the link. You take it as accepted fact that having a larger ACC means more evolved but do not prove this in any way or give any evidence to it. Now, from your other link what it appears you mean is that people are using the more evolved part of their brain, but again - this isn't evidenced. The evidence is not that they are using that part of their brain more - it is that those parts of their brain are larger. There were no MRI showing how people made decisions and what parts of their brain light up in this case - it was only a structural MRI showing the resting volume of brain matter. 

 

3 hours ago, Traveller between Worlds said:

A scientific study for the differences between liberals and conservatives,

Political Orientations Are Correlated with Brain Structure in Young Adults

I linked this before. Again, small sample size and potential problem with selection bias. 

3 hours ago, Traveller between Worlds said:

SSAE, there's no scientific facts about the differences between the brains of other groups, they are all superficial like skin tone or height, or cultural like the differences between men and women.  Look under the surface and you will find:

Your brain is a mosaic of male and female

 

 

 

Except we know from statistical analysis that men tend to be more conservative than women. Which implies by your hypothesis that men are 'less evolved' than women. 

Quote

 

There's no scientific studies showing scientific facts about differences between 'groups', there's scientific facts about the differences between conservatives and liberals.

Are Your Decisions from Your Evolved or Primitive Brain?

 

As it turns out, this is also wrong. Culture shapes the brain significantly, and it's not entirely clear how much of this is environment. Here's a great quote from the article, which has a study based on actually seeing what parts of the brain light up:

 

Quote

To take one recent example, a region behind the forehead called the medial prefrontal cortex supposedly represents the self: it is active when we ("we" being the Americans in the study) think of our own identity and traits. But with Chinese volunteers, the results were strikingly different. The "me" circuit hummed not only when they thought whether a particular adjective described themselves, but also when they considered whether it described their mother. The Westerners showed no such overlap between self and mom. Depending whether one lives in a culture that views the self as autonomous and unique or as connected to and part of a larger whole, this neural circuit takes on quite different functions.

Same goes for things like honesty, which differ significantly between American and Chinese people. This even seems to be supported by meta-analysis as well. 

[Kalbear]

I mean, heck, from the paper I cited, here's their experimental setup, which says itself that it's not representative:

Quote

A total of 90 healthy volunteers (mean 23.5 ± 4.84 standard deviation [SD], 55 female) was recruited from the University College London (UCL) participant pool. Written informed consent was obtained from each participant. The study was approved by the local UCL ethics committee. We deliberately used a homogenous sample of the UCL student population to minimize differences in social and educational environment. The UK Higher Education Statistics Agency reports that 21.1% of UCL students come from a working-class background. This rate is relatively low compared to the national average of 34.8%. This suggests that the UCL students from which we recruited our participants disproportionately have a middle-class to upper-class background.

Furthermore, none of the participants registered as 'very conservative' by their own value system at all. None!

Sorry, but 90 college students in the UK are not particularly a great way to extrapolate across all cultures and all people and all ages. 

[Egalitarianism Always]

 

Kalbear, to make it completely clear you've been dishonest in every exchange we've had:

Your idiotic claim the Y chromosome is only a 'tad smaller', it's hugely smaller, all that means is the differences between people are small when the whole homo sapiens is taken into consideration two individuals can widely differ but not on a basis of chromosomes, the differences we do see are hugely a result of cultural pressures.  Reality still exists underneath LGBTQIA+

Your idiotic denial of federal law making it a criminal offence to deny accommodations to any group at public event.  Who even would believe that could be true in 2017, seriously GTFO.

Your idiotic claim the sample size was small in that study when it was stated by scientists involved as being very large.