Azor Ahai and the Blood Betrayal

[Bowen Marsh]

I know readers spin too many theories out there and that is how the unemployed make money on youtube.  Just maybe though the plot is not that complicated.  The main issue within the story is the reliance on prophecies that are thousands of years old and written in a foreign language.  I don't think you need anything too complex to twist the plot.  For example, do we know with a reasonable certainty that Azor Ahai was responsible for ending the long night?  I don't think so.  What if the tale got corrupted over the millennia and with each translation.  What if AA actually caused the long night when he murdered his sister-wife?  Sound familiar?  What if AA was the Bloodstone Emperor?  So you see, repeating the same mistake will only get you the same results: an inconsistent climate pattern.  The thing to do to change things for the better is to NOT MURDER YOUR SPOUSE-SIBLING!

One idea that I want to present here:  the possibility of Brynden Rivers murdering Shiera Seastar.  How come we never heard from her?  You would think if she was alive she would have paid him a visit on the wall.  Love triangles create passionate jealousy.

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

I know readers spin too many theories out there and that is how the unemployed make money on youtube.  Just maybe though the plot is not that complicated. 

Agreed.

6 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

 

The main issue within the story is the reliance on prophecies that are thousands of years old and written in a foreign language.  I don't think you need anything too complex to twist the plot.  For example, do we know with a reasonable certainty that Azor Ahai was responsible for ending the long night?  I don't think so. 

Agreed again. I don't think we know for certain what actually happened 1,000, or 8,000, or 10,000 years ago. There are not "eye witnesses" and we readers are told by various characters in the story that the tale grows in the telling. Even the measters get it wrong. Also, when in-story events retell themselves in the current story, they are never the same as the original tale, so there the story is showing the reader to not take these old tales at face value.

6 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

What if the tale got corrupted over the millennia and with each translation. 

Yup. It did. The same with any story, including the original purpose oaths and vows.

6 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

What if AA actually caused the long night when he murdered his sister-wife?  Sound familiar? 

It does.

6 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

What if AA was the Bloodstone Emperor?  So you see, repeating the same mistake will only get you the same results: an inconsistent climate pattern.  The thing to do to change things for the better is to NOT MURDER YOUR SPOUSE-SIBLING!

 

Shit! Someone should have told this to Daenerys before she was complacent with her husband killing the king of Westeros and then usurping his spot on the throne.

6 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

 

One idea that I want to present here:  the possibility of Brynden Rivers murdering Shiera Seastar.  How come we never heard from her?

Not sure if the author is keeping her in the background, as in another Jenny-type figure, or if we will get a real glimpse of her. I kinda hope we do get a real glimpse of her because she is intriguing.

Also, I really hope BR did not kill her because that would make him an open kinslayer out of pure rage or jealousy (or whatever) instead of something general (albeit terrible) like being a casualty of war.

6 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

  You would think if she was alive she would have paid him a visit on the wall. 

Hmmm. Not sure other readers would be happy with that, but it could have been interesting.

6 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Love triangles create passionate jealousy.

Jaime-Brienne-Cersei

Sansa-Hound-Tyrion

Arya-Gendry-Peach Girls

Catelyn-Brandon-Eddard

Robert B-Lyanna-Rhaegar

Gatehouse Ami-Lancel-Religion

...and the lost goes on. Yeah, it is something George likes to do.

[Bowen Marsh]

10 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Agreed.

Agreed again. I don't think we know for certain what actually happened 1,000, or 8,000, or 10,000 years ago. There are not "eye witnesses" and we readers are told by various characters in the story that the tale grows in the telling. Even the measters get it wrong. Also, when in-story events retell themselves in the current story, they are never the same as the original tale, so there the story is showing the reader to not take these old tales at face value.

Yup. It did. The same with any story, including the original purpose oaths and vows.

It does.

Shit! Someone should have told this to Daenerys before she was complacent with her husband killing the king of Westeros and then usurping his spot on the throne.

That was Drogo's deed.  Dany was "property" and had no input.  She didn't show any pity but still that was on Drogo.  I think she is either one of two possible incarnations:  the maiden made of light herself or the daughter of the Amethyst Empress.  She could take revenge and kill the son of the Bloodstone Emperor, Aegon or Jon.  Or they could all forget the whole thing and break the cycle of betrayals.

Not sure if the author is keeping her in the background, as in another Jenny-type figure, or if we will get a real glimpse of her. I kinda hope we do get a real glimpse of her because she is intriguing.

Some say she's Quaithe but BR and Shiera fit the scenario of the Bloodstone Emperor and the Amethyst Empress.

Also, I really hope BR did not kill her because that would make him an open kinslayer out of pure rage or jealousy (or whatever) instead of something general (albeit terrible) like being a casualty of war.

Jealousy can drive people to murder.

Hmmm. Not sure other readers would be happy with that, but it could have been interesting.

Jaime-Brienne-Cersei

Sansa-Hound-Tyrion

Arya-Gendry-Peach Girls

Catelyn-Brandon-Eddard

Robert B-Lyanna-Rhaegar

Gatehouse Ami-Lancel-Religion

...and the lost goes on. Yeah, it is something George likes to do.

You forgot the most prominent triangle:  Jon-Arya-Gendry.  Only Jon could have a possible tie to the blood betrayal, although you could say Jon betrayed the N/W out of his love for Arya.  The triangle can take more than one form. 

Love-Duty-Honor

 

[BalerionTheCat]

AAR is a legend the Red Priests are using for their propaganda. It is possible AAR and the PtwP are different persons. I believe everyone, the Red Priests, the Children, Bloodraven, all want the end the LN. But there may be different endings with different winners. And I don't think the Red Priests, with their fire and blood magic, and their sacrifices to R'hllor are the one that would make a good ending. In fact I believe they are part of the blood betrayal.

Anyway, AAR or the PtwP is a one person who will have to make his/her own choices, whatever the RP, BR or the prophecies say.

[The Fattest Leech]

@Bowen Marsh I am out running errands and my phone HATES this forum. The two are always fighting with each other. 

Allow me a little time to get back to my computer and I will explain further. I do think you are over complicating what the tales say, which is what you warn against in your main post. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Maybe AA knew he had to murder a sibling and a spouse so he married his sister so he only had to kill one person? 

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

So you see, repeating the same mistake will only get you the same results: an inconsistent climate pattern.  The thing to do to change things for the better is to NOT MURDER YOUR SPOUSE-SIBLING!

Aha.  You've figured it out!    Not murder your spouse and/or sibling, to which we might add son...

The key dialectic is between making a sacrifice of another ultimately benefiting yourself vs. making a sacrifice of yourself for another.  The way to reset the seasons is to choose your brother/son/spouse over yourself -- and this is something Dany, for example, has thus far refrained from doing.  Brother/son/spouse -- Viserys, Rhaego and Drogo -- are all dead now, as a consequence either indirectly or directly of Dany's actions.  Regardless of whether Dany caused their deaths deliberately or as a result of her own recklessness, helplessness, and/or cluelessness is immaterial to the gods:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.

"Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing.

How and why did Rhaego die?  At Mirri's hand?  At Jorah's?  By engaging Mirri's services, Dany summoned, or perhaps can even be said to have commanded, a 'sword without a hilt' against her own flesh and blood; so who really 'swung the sword'?  

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Quote

Love triangles create passionate jealousy.

Jaime-Brienne-Cersei

Sansa-Hound-Tyrion

Arya-Gendry-Peach Girls

Catelyn-Brandon-Eddard

Robert B-Lyanna-Rhaegar

Gatehouse Ami-Lancel-Religion

...and the lost goes on. Yeah, it is something George likes to do.

Yeah, I wonder why he's so obsessed with love triangles...  (Poor GRRM )

You forgot the most malignant triangle of all:

Petyr Baelish -- Catelyn Tully -- Brandon Stark

25 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Maybe AA knew he had to murder a sibling and a spouse so he married his sister so he only had to kill one person? 

I don't think GRRM is in the habit of celebrating that kind of utilitarian thinking:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos V

"Your Grace," said Davos, "the cost . . ."

"I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning . . . burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?" The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King's Landing. "If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?"

"Everything," said Davos, softly.

 

[Texas Hold Em]

I always doubted the long night began with the blood betrayal.  I mean, really.  It is likely some cosmic cataclysm and the people lacked the science to explain it.  Two celestial bodies colliding and threw the orbit and the rotation of planetos into a wobble.  Like a spinning top that got hit from the side.  The people called it magic because that is what they knew.  An asteroid hitting a nearby moon or something like that.

Whatever the blood emperor, the amethyst empress, AA, or Hyrkoon did can't affect the weather.  But I'll play along.  Here goes.

Drogo = the Lion of the Night

Daenerys = The Maiden Made of Light

Rhaego would have been the Bloodstone Emperor but he died. 

Another way of looking at this from a supernatural angle is the concept of righting a wrong.  The children of the Amethyst Empress (blue-eyed Targaryens) must take vengeance on the children of the Bloodstone Emperor (?).  Since the theme is Fire vs. Ice, I would say the Starks are the descendants of the bloodstone emperor.  I want to see Jon and Sansa get roasted and I know it is just a wish on my part.  Which is unfortunate but George is not likely to do it.

[LordImp]

16 minutes ago, Texas Hold Em said:

I always doubted the long night began with the blood betrayal.  I mean, really.  It is likely some cosmic cataclysm and the people lacked the science to explain it.  Two celestial bodies colliding and threw the orbit and the rotation of planetos into a wobble.  Like a spinning top that got hit from the side.  The people called it magic because that is what they knew.  An asteroid hitting a nearby moon or something like that.

Whatever the blood emperor, the amethyst empress, AA, or Hyrkoon did can't affect the weather.  But I'll play along.  Here goes.

Drogo = the Lion of the Night

Daenerys = The Maiden Made of Light

Rhaego would have been the Bloodstone Emperor but he died. 

Another way of looking at this from a supernatural angle is the concept of righting a wrong.  The children of the Amethyst Empress (blue-eyed Targaryens) must take vengeance on the children of the Bloodstone Emperor (?).  Since the theme is Fire vs. Ice, I would say the Starks are the descendants of the bloodstone emperor.  I want to see Jon and Sansa get roasted and I know it is just a wish on my part.  Which is unfortunate but George is not likely to do it.

I will say that the Targaryens are Bloodstone descendants rather than the Starks. If so then Dany can be playing role of repairing the wrongs of her ancestor. 

I personally dont think the Blood betrayal having anything to do with the Others. The Bloodstone emperor was probably a part of the eastern front of the Long night. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

5 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

  I don't think you need anything too complex to twist the plot.

OMGGRRMISSUCHAGOODWRITERITCAN'TBESIMPLEITHASTOBECOMPLEX!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[chrisdaw]

I don't know how anyone could read the Blood Emperor paragraphs and not see it's a Euron parallel. It's just a checklist of what Euron has done. The few things that the BE did that Euron hasn't is simply because Euron hasn't done them yet.

Two Euron things are signalled in the BE's blood betrayal. Euron killing Balon and the other which hasn't happened yet but certainly will, his blood betrayal of Dany. The BE, a blatant Euron parallel, commits the blood betrayal against the Amethyst Empress. Pretty obvious who the Amethyst Empress is supposed to represent.

Quote

 

"What dragon?" said Victarion, frowning.

"The last of her line. They say she is the fairest woman in the world. Her hair is silver-gold, and her eyes are amethysts . . . but you need not take my word for it, brother. Go to Slaver's Bay, behold her beauty, and bring her back to me."

 

Only one actual character is ever referred to as having amethyst eyes, Dany, by Euron (until Victarion copies him). No other character is given an amethyst description.

And it's called the blood betrayal, and Dany is going to know a treason for blood, and would you look at that Euron specifically wants Dany because she's the last of her line. Bloodline. And Euron just happens to be popping up in Dany's HOTU vision and wet dreams.

[Curled Finger]

Oh Boy...

8 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

 The main issue within the story is the reliance on prophecies that are thousands of years old and written in a foreign language.  What if the tale got corrupted over the millennia and with each translation.  What if AA actually caused the long night when he murdered his sister-wife?   What if AA was the Bloodstone Emperor?  So you see, repeating the same mistake will only get you the same results: an inconsistent climate pattern.  The thing to do to change things for the better is to NOT MURDER YOUR SPOUSE-SIBLING!

One idea that I want to present here:  the possibility of Brynden Rivers murdering Shiera Seastar.  How come we never heard from her?  You would think if she was alive she would have paid him a visit on the wall.  Love triangles create passionate jealousy.

We are told several times in the story as well as in SSM from GRRM his own damned self that prophesy is NOT to be taken too literally or trusted to entirely.   This legend based in something miraculous that happened 8 to 10,000 years ago.   Of course the tale has changed with time.  When a tale or statement or sentiment is passed down exclusively by word of mouth for 8 to 10,000 years the words are bound to change.   Language changes.   None of the legends we have are any more than legends, folk tales.  I take it you think Azor Ahai and/or The Prince That Was Promised are not The Last Hero? 

I left the sister wife comment in there because I didn't recall ever reading Nissa Nissa was related to AA by anything other than marriage then you had to throw in the Bloodstone Emporer.   Let's forget we've read the World Book.  That doesn't make the idea wrong by any means.   The World Book is supplemental.  It's not main stream story.   We get little hints and glimpses of backstory that lend credence or completely abolish fan theory.  Fan Theory.   Not GRRM's main ASOIAF.  If you ever see an interview, GRRM often refers to his characters as his children.   It's doubtful he invested more than a few paragraphs of thought into the Bloodstone Emperor or the Amethyst Princess. The Bloodstone Emperor isn't even mentioned in ASOIAF including the TWOW chapters available.   I need more from Mel or Thoros or Benero or Moqorro about Azor Ahai before I decide he was the super villain or hero from time immemorial.   

I'm not sure I understand where you are going with the supposition about Sheira Seastar. 

I'm not good with prophecy or metaphor.  I can see most of it now but only because I have the forum community to explain and elaborate and make connections.   I don't have any original theories related to prophecy.    I think The Others are some banished Wildling First Men group.  Or maybe the 1st species on Planetos.  There were giants and Children of the Forest so why not some cold loving ice zombies too?   If The Others brought The Long Night it stands to reason that a hero, any hero by any name, will be required to push them back again or even vanquish them for once and all.   Maybe it will require 3 or 5 heroes or 1 + 12 and a dog. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

I'm not a big fan of the Azor Ahai prophecy, especially since it's been confirmed that AA descends from Aerys and Rhaella's line. It takes the fun out of wondering which characters will help bring down the Others if we already know who the designated heroes are. I'd find it much more interesting if the prophecy turned out to be a farce instead.

I suppose the return of the Others could have allowed Dany's eggs to hatch, but I wonder if all you really need is one dead sacrifice and one living sacrifice ("only death can pay for life"). Was Rhaego burned along with Drogo in the books? I can't remember. 

I think we'll meet Shiera eventually, although it might not be for some time. Rather than having been murdered by Bloodraven, I think Shiera may have left for Essos after his sentence, no longer feeling welcome in King's Landing. She later discovered she was pregnant and ended up giving birth to a daughter who was captured by Essosi slavers after Shiera's death, then sold to a red temple, where she trained as a priestess as R'hllor, eventually leading her to having a vision of a teeth-grinding lord on a island out west, who she then decided was Azor Ahai reborn. . . . 

[BalerionTheCat]

8 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

I don't know how anyone could read the Blood Emperor paragraphs and not see it's a Euron parallel. It's just a checklist of what Euron has done. The few things that the BE did that Euron hasn't is simply because Euron hasn't done them yet.

Euron is on the same path as the Bloodstone Emperor. That is obvious. But if the Amethyst and her brother had descendants, it is more likely the Valyrians and the Targaryens. Not the Starks or the First Men.

The Seastone Chair is a block of oily black stone. There are a few places with "oily black stone", None very nice, like Asshai. I would think the Chair is connected to the Bloodstone. Corrupting anyone close to it. IMO, Euron has not the blood, but he is someway "possessed" by the stone. Like were Urrathon Badbrother, Black Harren and many dark Ironborn before him. Only Euron has magical abilities equal or superior  to the former emperor.

[Maester Crypt]

9 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I'm not a big fan of the Azor Ahai prophecy, especially since it's been confirmed that AA descends from Aerys and Rhaella's line.

I'm just curious where in the books this was confirmed? Or are you referring to Jenny of Oldstones and Prince Duncan?

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, Maester Crypt said:

I'm just curious where in the books this was confirmed? Or are you referring to Jenny of Oldstones and Prince Duncan?

 

Barristan told Dany in ADWD that it was foretold that TPTWP would be born from Aerys and Rhaella's line. That may turn out to be bogus, but a lot of readers have taken it as a confirmation that TPTWP is Jon and/or Dany.

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Barristan told Dany in ADWD that it was foretold that TPTWP would be born from Aerys and Rhaella's line. That may turn out to be bogus, but a lot of readers have taken it as a confirmation that TPTWP is Jon and/or Dany.

The Children have put the PtwP prophecy on track by telling Jaehaerys II that the PtwP would be born from Aerys and Rhaella line. And BR probably made sure a few things happened as it should. So they have some big investment in this affair. Melisandre is using either the PtwP or AAR for her Lord (i.e. R'hllor) Chosen. Essos Red Priests are only using AAR, and apparently are expecting Daenerys. Whether they are the same hero or not, I don't think the Children and the RP are on the same line. IMO, all this should be interesting and some will have to revise their plans.

[The Bard of Banefort]

22 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The Children have put the PtwP prophecy on track by telling Jaehaerys II that the PtwP would be born from Aerys and Rhaella line. And BR probably made sure a few things happened as it should. So they have some big investment in this affair. Melisandre is using either the PtwP or AAR for her Lord (i.e. R'hllor) Chosen. Essos Red Priests are only using AAR, and apparently are expecting Daenerys. Whether they are the same hero or not, I don't think the Children and the RP are on the same line. IMO, all this should be interesting and some will have to revise their plans.

Yeah, that's a good point. Bran has a lot of "chosen one" aspects as well, but he's not related to the Targaryens, so I guess these different prophecies could be unrelated to one another. 

[BalerionTheCat]

32 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

so I guess these different prophecies could be unrelated to one another. 

Both prophecies are addressing the Long Night. AFAIK, both are speaking of bleeding star, of smoke and salt. So I believe they are related. But R'hllor is certainly not the Old Gods. The Children and the RP have probably different expectations. The old legends have different names and different stories for their hero. There are mysteries yet to unveil. But IMHO, in the end, it will be the hero, not the Gods or the prophecies to decide how the world will be after the Long Night.

[ravenous reader]

22 hours ago, Texas Hold Em said:

I always doubted the long night began with the blood betrayal.  I mean, really.  It is likely some cosmic cataclysm and the people lacked the science to explain it.  Two celestial bodies colliding and threw the orbit and the rotation of planetos into a wobble.  Like a spinning top that got hit from the side.  The people called it magic because that is what they knew.  An asteroid hitting a nearby moon or something like that.

GRRM has said, however, that phenomena like the unusual length of the seasons will have a magical rather than scientific explanation (I also think, despite being a supposedly 'morally grey' writer, he can't help putting a moral spin on it).  See this interview.

Quote

Whatever the blood emperor, the amethyst empress, AA, or Hyrkoon did can't affect the weather. 

In a world of magic, it's possible for a sorceror/greenseer to affect geophysical and celestial processes.  For example, Garin 'calling' up a flood.

Quote

But I'll play along.  Here goes.

Drogo = the Lion of the Night

Daenerys = The Maiden Made of Light

Rhaego would have been the Bloodstone Emperor but he died. 

Another way of looking at this from a supernatural angle is the concept of righting a wrong.  The children of the Amethyst Empress (blue-eyed Targaryens) must take vengeance on the children of the Bloodstone Emperor (?).  Since the theme is Fire vs. Ice, I would say the Starks are the descendants of the bloodstone emperor.  I want to see Jon and Sansa get roasted and I know it is just a wish on my part.  Which is unfortunate but George is not likely to do it.

Taking vengeance does not right a wrong.  Instead, it tends to perpetuate the cycle.  For example, here Oberyn and Tyrion reflect on the endless Martell-Lannister enmity in which they are enmeshed:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion X

 "What I did not tell you was that my mother waited as long as was decent, and then broached your father about our purpose. Years later, on her deathbed, she told me that Lord Tywin had refused us brusquely. His daughter was meant for Prince Rhaegar, he informed her. And when she asked for Jaime, to espouse Elia, he offered her you instead."

"Which offer she took for an outrage."

"It was. Even you can see that, surely?"

"Oh, surely."

It all goes back and back, Tyrion thought, to our mothers and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance on in our steads. "Well, Prince Rhaegar married Elia of Dorne, not Cersei Lannister of Casterly Rock. So it would seem your mother won that tilt."

"She thought so," Prince Oberyn agreed, "but your father is not a man to forget such slights. He taught that lesson to Lord and Lady Tarbeck once, and to the Reynes of Castamere. And at King's Landing, he taught it to my sister. 

 

22 hours ago, LordImp said:

I will say that the Targaryens are Bloodstone descendants rather than the Starks. If so then Dany can be playing role of repairing the wrongs of her ancestor.

Righting the wrongs of which ancestor?  Aegon the Conqueror?  Aerys Targaryen?  How far back do you go, and when do you stop?

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion VI

"For the realm! Once Rhaegar died, the war was done. Aerys was mad, Viserys too young, Prince Aegon a babe at the breast, but the realm needed a king . . . I prayed it should be your good father, but Robert was too strong, and Lord Stark moved too swiftly . . ."

"How many have you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me . . . King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?" He knew where it ended.

 

6 hours ago, Maester Crypt said:

I'm just curious where in the books this was confirmed? Or are you referring to Jenny of Oldstones and Prince Duncan?

 

To be exact, the prophecy is about 'the prince that was promised,' not Azor Ahai:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IV

Ser Barristan went on. “I saw your father and your mother wed as well. Forgive me, but there was no fondness there, and the realm paid dearly for that, my queen.”

"Why did they wed if they did not love each other?"

"Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line."

“A woods witch?” Dany was astonished.

  “She came to court with Jenny of Oldstones. A stunted thing, grotesque to look upon. A dwarf, most people said, though dear to Lady Jenny, who always claimed that she was one of the children of the forest.”

  “What became of her?”

  “Summerhall.” The word was fraught with doom.

Maybe the COTF lied...Maybe the PTWP is not even a Targaryen!