The Bard of Banefort Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Going back to something I said earlier, does anyone know what happened to Rhaego's body? I don't even recall Dany seeing him with her own eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordImp Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 1 hour ago, ravenous reader said: Righting the wrongs of which ancestor? Aegon the Conqueror? Aerys Targaryen? How far back do you go, and when do you stop If you had readen my entire post you would have understood. The Targaryens are descending from the Bloodstone emperor and Dany will have to right the wrongs of the BSE and his blood betrayal. Of course I have no evidence for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoth the raven, Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said: Going back to something I said earlier, does anyone know what happened to Rhaego's body? I don't even recall Dany seeing him with her own eyes. His body was supposedly taken care of by the Dothraki women. The women are ofcourse very superstitious so we don't actually know for sure. However, I think it is likely that he died and his remains buried. Somebody posted a theory that proposed that a group loyal to Drogo took the baby and hid him because they were expecting Dany to end up with the Dosh Khaleen. Drogo's enemies might harm the child and a few of the women of his khalasar hid him. I think the best candidates for the remaining line of the bloodstone emperor are the ironborn. Dany is the last of the line from the amethyst empress and it may be her duty to avenge her ancestor by killing Euron. Going all the way back to aGoT, in Dany's visions of the old kings. They were cheering her on. They wanted her to wake the dragon. I believe those kings were the former rulers of the Great Empire of the Dawn, the ancestors of the Amethyst Empress. Perhaps they are immortal and imprisoned somewhere. Consider they were dressed in faded raimants. That is highly unusual for a king to be dressed in faded clothes. It takes a long time for clothes to fade. I am open to the possibility that they are still alive and imprisoned in that darkness that Dany feared in the vision. Killing a current descendant of the bloodstone emperor may be the cosmic justice that is needed to return normalcy to the global weather patterns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoth the raven, Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 5 minutes ago, LordImp said: If you had readen my entire post you would have understood. The Targaryens are descending from the Bloodstone emperor and Dany will have to right the wrongs of the BSE and his blood betrayal. Of course I have no evidence for this. No. Dany is more likely the descendant of the Amethyst Empress. Her visions in aGoT, as I mentioned above, do not show the red eyed Bloodstone Emperor. I think Dany is meant to avenge the AE. That was why they were cheering her on to "wake the dragon" and to run faster to avoid the coming darkness. I suspect those kings failed to run fast enough and got caught by the darkness. Now, we know who wants to bring darkness. Euron and the White Walkers. I think Dany will have to kill Euron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 30 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said: Going back to something I said earlier, does anyone know what happened to Rhaego's body? I don't even recall Dany seeing him with her own eyes. It's a popular misconception that his body was burnt on the funeral pyre. That is never confirmed, nor is it definitive even as to whether it was a live birth or stillbirth (Jorah seems very cagey about what actually occurred), nor what happened to his remains. Despite her request, I don't think Dany ever got to see his body. Thus, we are left with maths that doesn't quite add up: 2 live people = Mirri and Dany 1 dead person = Drogo 1 dead horse go into the pyre, from which we get: 3 dragons hatching 1 person who outwits death = Dany So I ask you -- given the economic dictum, 'only death pays for life,' whose sacrifice paid for what? 22 minutes ago, LordImp said: If you had readen my entire post you would have understood. I read and understood your post just fine. Perhaps the subtlety of mine escaped you! Quote The Targaryens are descending from the Bloodstone emperor and Dany will have to right the wrongs of the BSE and his blood betrayal. Of course I have no evidence for this. The more pressing wrong she has to right is that committed by her father against the Starks, when Aerys by burning Rickard Stark and torturing his son Brandon to death, broke the pact with the north established by Aegon the Conqueror with Torrhen the King who Knelt. In order to make reparations, the dragon must now kneel to the wolf! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard of Banefort Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: It's a popular misconception that he was burnt on the funeral pyre. That is never confirmed, nor is it definitive even as to whether it was a live birth or stillbirth (Jorah seems very cagey about what actually occurred), nor what happened to his remains. Despite her request, I don't think Dany even got to see his body. Thus, we are left with maths that doesn't quite add up: 2 live people = Mirri and Dany 1 dead person = Drogo 1 dead horse go into the pyre, from which we get: 3 dragons hatching 1 person who outwits death = Dany So I ask you -- given the economic dictum, 'only death pays for life,' whose sacrifice paid for what? I had thought that maybe it was the combination of a living sacrifice (Mirri) and a non-living sacrifice (Drogo) that allowed the eggs to hatch, but the horse does complicate things. I wonder if the return of the Others has allowed the dragons to return as well, but then that begs the question, what brought the Others back? You're killing us here, George. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordImp Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 37 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: more pressing wrong she has to right is that committed by her father against the Starks, when Aerys by burning Rickard Stark and torturing his son Brandon to death, broke the pact with the north established by Aegon the Conqueror with Torrhen the King who Knelt. In order to make reparations, the dragon must now kneel to the wolf! Totally agrees with you here. The idea about Dany and BSE is just something I have read here at the forum. The basis of theory is that Dany is the amethyst empress reborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordImp Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 50 minutes ago, Quoth the raven, said: No. Dany is more likely the descendant of the Amethyst Empress. Her visions in aGoT, as I mentioned above, do not show the red eyed Bloodstone Emperor. I think Dany is meant to avenge the AE. That was why they were cheering her on to "wake the dragon" and to run faster to avoid the coming darkness. I suspect those kings failed to run fast enough and got caught by the darkness. Now, we know who wants to bring darkness. Euron and the White Walkers. I think Dany will have to kill Euron. Dany= AE is also a good idea . Euron is definetly following BSE footsteps and yes , Dany will be the one to ultimately bring him down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 On 25/06/2017 at 7:02 PM, BalerionTheCat said: Euron is on the same path as the Bloodstone Emperor. That is obvious. But if the Amethyst and her brother had descendants, it is more likely the Valyrians and the Targaryens. Not the Starks or the First Men. There are no descendants. If there even was a Bloodstone Emperor is not relevant as there will be no tangible link between anything in the series and the legend/history. All its worth is in foreshadowing and parallelism, and whatever entertainment value it offers on it's own. The black stone will be Drogon. Drogon will become the stone beast, and become more and more stone until he can no longer fly. That's what it falling from the sky is signifying, Drogon losing his flight. Particularly notable with relation to Euron because to Euron it's half about flying. Euron isn't going to worship Drogon like the BE did the stone, he's going to covet Drogon and become Drogon, and be worshipped as a god. Throw down the old gods, take their place as the new. But they will have their vengeance, first the Storm god knocking him out of the air, taking his flight from him, and then the Drowned god will drag him to the bottom of the ocean, as Aeron promises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roswell Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 I suggest reading Martin's short stories. Tuf Voyaging in particular. The stories address themes of human over population, how humans treat other forms of life, and blood sports. The threat of the long night is an environmental issue and Martin wants to send a soft message to his readers. That message would be lost if the cause of the climate change was something happened thousands of years ago between members of a family. The cause is something that humans do that damage the environment and upset balance. From the story mentioned above, the protagonists repeatedly addressed the Suthlamese issue of explosive population growth outstripping their capacity to provide food. In one of the tales, the same protagonists addressed the issue of the mudpots. The humans failed to recognize their sentience and slaughtered the mudpots for food. The mudpots retaliated in order to survive. Beast for Norn dealt with the issue of bloodsports. Having some dubious event that happened between two people a long time ago and making that the cause doesn't fit Martin's goal of making people think and act more responsible towards the environment. What is the likely cause of the long night are many but they all relate to humans destroying nature. (1)The First Men cutting down the weirwoods. (2)The Valyrians digging too deep in the mines. (3)The Lannisters mining too deep. (4)The death of the dragons removed a natural enemy that kept the white walkers in check. (5)Excessive and uncontrolled experiments in magic that destroyed Asshai. Those are the causes of the long night and not a ten thousand year old family squabble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shi Qiang Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 On 6/25/2017 at 4:08 PM, ravenous reader said: It's a popular misconception that his body was burnt on the funeral pyre. That is never confirmed, nor is it definitive even as to whether it was a live birth or stillbirth (Jorah seems very cagey about what actually occurred), nor what happened to his remains. Despite her request, I don't think Dany ever got to see his body. Thus, we are left with maths that doesn't quite add up: 2 live people = Mirri and Dany 1 dead person = Drogo 1 dead horse go into the pyre, from which we get: 3 dragons hatching 1 person who outwits death = Dany So I ask you -- given the economic dictum, 'only death pays for life,' whose sacrifice paid for what? I read and understood your post just fine. Perhaps the subtlety of mine escaped you! The more pressing wrong she has to right is that committed by her father against the Starks, when Aerys by burning Rickard Stark and torturing his son Brandon to death, broke the pact with the north established by Aegon the Conqueror with Torrhen the King who Knelt. In order to make reparations, the dragon must now kneel to the wolf! The dragon must roast the wolf. The Starks betrayed the Targaryens with their southron ambitions conspiracy. Brandon and Rickard got their just punishment. A direwolf has no right to judge a Dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 25 minutes ago, Allardyce said: The dragon must roast the wolf. The Starks betrayed the Targaryens with their southron ambitions conspiracy. Brandon and Rickard got their just punishment. A direwolf has no right to judge a Dragon. Wrong. The Targs betrayed the realm. The king has duties, too, and Batshit crazy rapist sadistic arsonist Aerys failed miserably in his duties. Too bad Azor Ahai Jaime didn't kill him much sooner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 55 minutes ago, Allardyce said: The dragon must roast the wolf. Not again! Yawn -- been there, done that, the first time around... Now that 'winter is coming,' however, it's time for a new narrative, a subversion, or even better, an inversion -- yay. Given the insight in retrospect into where the dynasty led, do you honestly think anything good can come of Danaegon the Conqueror 2.0? Quote The Starks betrayed the Targaryens with their southron ambitions conspiracy. Brandon and Rickard got their just punishment. A direwolf has no right to judge a Dragon. Sigh, another Dany-besotted fan -- I can spot you a mile away! (do you really want to get this thread closed down..?...no other way, huh..? ...another plaintive sigh and wry shrug of shoulders!... OK, fine, let's get on with it, then...) That's not the expression, as I recall; the correct expression is 'By what right does the wolf judge the lion?' The dragon, however, leaves much to be accounted for in terms of arrogance and unfinished business. Once Bran skinchanges one of the wighted dragons, you'll see what it means for a dragon to come to heel at the foot of a wolf! It's a pleasing literary symmetry, don't you think? First, Aerys made the Starks feel the heat by roasting their de facto King of Winter Rickard and heir Brandon Stark, in exchange for the peace which Torrhen had granted the Targaryens; and now, Brandon Stark born again, the heir to the weirwood throne (and the namesake to boot of the bastard Brandon Snow who originally wanted to assassinate the dragons with his three weirwood arrows, but was however dissuaded from doing so by the 'king-who-knelt' in the name of peace) will make the dragons feel the ice! (I fancy that turn of phrase of mine, don't you -- 'make the dragons feel the ice' has such a refreshingly crisp, tinkling ring to it, like the sound of 'cracking ice on a winter lake' (AGOT -- Prologue), even though I say so myself?!) Once the dragon kneels compliantly to the weirwood, there'll be peace -- until the next wave comes around. (oh, did I mention, both Bran the Last Greenseer and Dany the Last Dragon will die by the end -- sorry to upset you with the latter revelation -- because only death can pay for life, and self-sacrifice -- not murder, not more 'roasting' as you would have it-- for peace). Signed: RR, Poetess of the Nennymoans, the Devil's Secretary Muse, the Snark in the Ointment, the Beauty of the Snowrise, and Renowned-Dany-Hater-it-is-Known! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moiraine Sedai Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 3 hours ago, ravenous reader said: Not again! Yawn -- been there, done that, the first time around... Now that 'winter is coming,' however, it's time for a new narrative, a subversion, or even better, an inversion -- yay. Given the insight in retrospect into where the dynasty led, do you honestly think anything good can come of Danaegon the Conqueror 2.0? Sigh, another Dany-besotted fan -- I can spot you a mile away! (do you really want to get this thread closed down..?...no other way, huh..? ...another plaintive sigh and wry shrug of shoulders!... OK, fine, let's get on with it, then...) That's not the expression, as I recall; the correct expression is 'By what right does the wolf judge the lion?' The dragon, however, leaves much to be accounted for in terms of arrogance and unfinished business. Once Bran skinchanges one of the wighted dragons, you'll see what it means for a dragon to come to heel at the foot of a wolf! It's a pleasing literary symmetry, don't you think? First, Aerys made the Starks feel the heat by roasting their de facto King of Winter Rickard and heir Brandon Stark, in exchange for the peace which Torrhen had granted the Targaryens; and now, Brandon Stark born again, the heir to the weirwood throne (and the namesake to boot of the bastard Brandon Snow who originally wanted to assassinate the dragons with his three weirwood arrows, but was however dissuaded from doing so by the 'king-who-knelt' in the name of peace) will make the dragons feel the ice! (I fancy that turn of phrase of mine, don't you -- 'make the dragons feel the ice' has such a refreshingly crisp, tinkling ring to it, like the sound of 'cracking ice on a winter lake' (AGOT -- Prologue), even though I say so myself?!) Once the dragon kneels compliantly to the weirwood, there'll be peace -- until the next wave comes around. (oh, did I mention, both Bran the Last Greenseer and Dany the Last Dragon will die by the end -- sorry to upset you with the latter revelation -- because only death can pay for life, and self-sacrifice -- not murder, not more 'roasting' as you would have it-- for peace). Signed: RR, Poetess of the Nennymoans, the Devil's Secretary Muse, the Snark in the Ointment, the Beauty of the Snowrise, and Renowned-Dany-Hater-it-is-Known! Count me among the Dany fan club. That's just a desperate wish on your part. You don't know this will happen. I for one hope it doesn't. It may happen on the show but I really do not think it will happen in the books. And this is the place for book discussion. "The dragons will make the direwolves feel the heat" is a better phrase, don't you agree? One dragon already did that to two stupid wolves who came calling in the south. A repeat performance is in order. Yes it's time to melt the Snow and bring back spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 28 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said: "The dragons will make the direwolves feel the heat" is a better phrase, don't you agree? No poetry in that, I'm afraid. I'm more into the 'true tongue' these days -- the 'song of the earth' -- a dialect of which is the speech we heard about in the Prologue that sounds like the ice cracking on a winter lake -- or a dragon being wighted! You know, the icy half of the song of ice and fire...and 'winter is coming'! But as I said in my blurb above, I don't expect either Bran or Dany to survive the spring thaw... (they are each other's counterfoils and neither will 'win'; they will cancel each other out...so I'm equal opportunity, as far as the delicious ironic harmony of 'bittersweet' tragedy is concerned...). Quote One dragon already did that to two stupid wolves who came calling in the south. A repeat performance is in order. GRRM doesn't do 'repeat performance' without a twist. If you think he does, you haven't been paying attention! 28 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said: That's just a desperate wish on your part. You don't know this will happen. I for one hope it doesn't. It may happen on the show but I really do not think it will happen in the books. And this is the place for book discussion. I wasn't alluding to the show in any way. All my conclusions have been suggested by close reading of the text alone. There is ample evidence suggesting Bran will skinchange a dragon, specifically an ice dragon (although it could also be a fiery one, I'm not sure). I agree I don't know what will happen; nor do you -- to quote the heretics, 'We Just Don't Know, Yet'! 'Art is not democratic...' -- so ultimately neither of our respective 'desperate wishes' will matter a whit; GRRM will decide the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wm Portnoy Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Here is how the story will end. Daenerys Targaryen-Empress of Planetos and Missandei of Naath watch Drogon the Black Dread deposit a steaming pile of dragon dung on the stone steps outside the Dragon Pit. Missandei moves closer and pokes the aromatic material with a long stick. Missandei: So this is what's left of your nephew, Jon Snow. Empress Daenerys: Yes it is. Jon has been reprocessed into something more useful. Missandei: His Watch is Ended. Empress Daenerys: Please see that you spread Jon evenly around the blue roses. THE END Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moiraine Sedai Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 16 minutes ago, Wm Portnoy said: Here is how the story will end. Daenerys Targaryen-Empress of Planetos and Missandei of Naath watch Drogon the Black Dread deposit a steaming pile of dragon dung on the stone steps outside the Dragon Pit. Missandei moves closer and pokes the aromatic material with a long stick. Missandei: So this is what's left of your nephew, Jon Snow. Empress Daenerys: Yes it is. Jon has been reprocessed into something more useful. Missandei: His Watch is Ended. Empress Daenerys: Please see that you spread Jon evenly around the blue roses. THE END That was too cute! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
300 H&H Magnum Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 6 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said: Count me among the Dany fan club. Good to know. I'm on Team Daenerys too. 6 hours ago, Wm Portnoy said: Here is how the story will end. Daenerys Targaryen-Empress of Planetos and Missandei of Naath watch Drogon the Black Dread deposit a steaming pile of dragon dung on the stone steps outside the Dragon Pit. Missandei moves closer and pokes the aromatic material with a long stick. Missandei: So this is what's left of your nephew, Jon Snow. Empress Daenerys: Yes it is. Jon has been reprocessed into something more useful. Missandei: His Watch is Ended. Empress Daenerys: Please see that you spread Jon evenly around the blue roses. THE END Missandei: He was no dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 15 hours ago, Allardyce said: A direwolf has no right to judge a Dragon. Forget your direwolf vs dragons. The direwolves were sent by the Old Gods. Who sent the dragons? R'hllor? The Others have come to judge everyone. And if they are half as furious as I am with what happened, I hope very very few will remain after one year without light and only ice. The world will leave this period and enter a golden age of 10,000 years without a king forgetting his duty to his people and daring to offense the gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shi Qiang Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 15 hours ago, Wm Portnoy said: Here is how the story will end. Daenerys Targaryen-Empress of Planetos and Missandei of Naath watch Drogon the Black Dread deposit a steaming pile of dragon dung on the stone steps outside the Dragon Pit. Missandei moves closer and pokes the aromatic material with a long stick. Missandei: So this is what's left of your nephew, Jon Snow. Empress Daenerys: Yes it is. Jon has been reprocessed into something more useful. Missandei: His Watch is Ended. Empress Daenerys: Please see that you spread Jon evenly around the blue roses. THE END Awesome! Fine humor on a weekend afternoon. lmao. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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