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*Come out and die* never happened.


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I always doubted that Brandon went to KL and demanded Rhaegar to face him. Does anyone else believes that the Come out and die is utter bs?

There are two ways for Jaime to know what Brandon did. One, Brandon was allowed to ender Red Keep armed along with his entourage or he went to KL and screamed outside of the Walls and Jaime happened to be there to hear him. If Jaime wasn’t present when Brandon said it he couldn’t know what happened and it could had been created from someone who had something to gain from a civil war that brings chaos and death. Maybe someone like Varys.

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6 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

I always doubted that Brandon went to KL and demanded Rhaegar to face him. Does anyone else believes that the Come out and die is utter bs?

There are two ways for Jaime to know what Brandon did. One, Brandon was allowed to ender Red Keep armed along with his entourage or he went to KL and screamed outside of the Walls and Jaime happened to be there to hear him. If Jaime wasn’t present when Brandon said it he couldn’t know what happened and it could had been created from someone who had something to gain from a civil war that brings chaos and death. Maybe someone like Varys.

So what do you think Brandon said then? Do you not  believe Aerys had Brandon arrested for plotting to kill Rhaegar then, Jaime also tells us that too. 

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6 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

I always doubted that Brandon went to KL and demanded Rhaegar to face him. Does anyone else believes that the Come out and die is utter bs?

There are two ways for Jaime to know what Brandon did. One, Brandon was allowed to ender Red Keep armed along with his entourage or he went to KL and screamed outside of the Walls and Jaime happened to be there to hear him. If Jaime wasn’t present when Brandon said it he couldn’t know what happened and it could had been created from someone who had something to gain from a civil war that brings chaos and death. Maybe someone like Varys.

Jaime's testimony is certainly limited but its the only one we have to-date. King's Landing is a city so Brandon and his entourage likely entered freely - the gates of the city would only be closed at night. He may well have ridden into the bailey of the Red Keep itself to make his call  to Rhaegar (likely only the royal apartments would be restricted to the normal traffic of servants, tradesmen, merchants, knights, petitioners, etc). Maybe once the kerfuffle started, the Kingsguard were sent to investigate and that's where Jaime's testimony comes from. Hopefully, we will know more when future books are released.

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14 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

I always doubted that Brandon went to KL and demanded Rhaegar to face him. Does anyone else believes that the Come out and die is utter bs?

There are two ways for Jaime to know what Brandon did. One, Brandon was allowed to ender Red Keep armed along with his entourage or he went to KL and screamed outside of the Walls and Jaime happened to be there to hear him. If Jaime wasn’t present when Brandon said it he couldn’t know what happened and it could had been created from someone who had something to gain from a civil war that brings chaos and death. Maybe someone like Varys.

This what a starved and thirsty Jaime who Catelyn purposely got really drunk on wine has to say:

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII

"Brandon was nothing like you."
 
"If you say so. You and he were to wed."
 

"He was on his way to Riverrun when . . ." Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. ". . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do." She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon.

 

Jaime poured the last half cup of wine. "He rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die. But Rhaegar wasn't there. Aerys sent his guards to arrest them all for plotting his son's murder. The others were lords' sons too, it seems to me."
 

"Ethan Glover was Brandon's squire," Catelyn said. "He was the only one to survive. The others were Jeffory Mallister, Kyle Royce, and Elbert Arryn, Jon Arryn's nephew and heir." It was queer how she still remembered the names, after so many years. "Aerys accused them of treason and summoned their fathers to court to answer the charge, with the sons as hostages. When they came, he had them murdered without trial. Fathers and sons both."

 

"There were trials. Of a sort. Lord Rickard demanded trial by combat, and the king granted the request. Stark armored himself as for battle, thinking to duel one of the Kingsguard. Me, perhaps. Instead they took him to the throne room and suspended him from the rafters while two of Aerys's pyromancers kindled a blaze beneath him. The king told him that fire was the champion of House Targaryen. So all Lord Rickard needed to do to prove himself innocent of treason was . . . well, not burn.
 
"When the fire was blazing, Brandon was brought in. His hands were chained behind his back, and around his neck was a wet leathern cord attached to a device the king had brought from Tyrosh. His legs were left free, though, and his longsword was set down just beyond his reach.
"The pyromancers roasted Lord Rickard slowly, banking and fanning that fire carefully to get a nice even heat. His cloak caught first, and then his surcoat, and soon he wore nothing but metal and ashes. Next he would start to cook, Aerys promised . . . unless his son could free him. Brandon tried, but the more he struggled, the tighter the cord constricted around his throat. In the end he strangled himself."As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."
 
"Aerys . . ." Catelyn could taste bile at the back of her throat. The story was so hideous she suspected it had to be true. "Aerys was mad, the whole realm knew it, but if you would have me believe you slew him to avenge Brandon Stark . . ."
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Probably rode into the outer bailey shouting, whoever's manning the walls and gates hear, pass it on through the keep to Aerys and his court and in turn Jaime, Kinsguard may have even been dispatched in response. We might not have a first hand account but enough people probably witnessed it for it to be common knowledge at least within the castle. 

Also in the context of the narrative it doesn't really strike me as anything that should appear to be untrue, all the descriptions of Brandon support the idea that he's rash and full of wolf's blood. 

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I lean towards it being a fabrication by Aerys/Varys, as a way to move against Rickard Stark and his "co-conspirators" and keep it more palatable for the high lords.

If indeed the real events differed from the story, it was carefully constructed by Martin.  We learn from Ned that Brandon had more than a touch of the wolf blood, which is to say he was rash and bold.  But he had days, probably weeks to contemplate his actions upon arriving at Kings Landing.  We also learn from Ned that Brandon was groomed to rule, and going himself, with a group of lords' sons, he potentially would keep his father out of a tenuous situation.  Rickard would still be alive and free in the north to declare war or sue for peace as needed, with two heirs should Brandon himself be executed.

Another thing, as the Fattest Leech pointed out, Jaime was drunk and vulnerable, and likely not present to actually here the "come out and die".  I think this is important for two reasons.  First, while Jaime is always brash, in this scene, he comes across as particularly arrogant and defiant, because, I think, he is vulnerable and unsure.  Secondly, I always thought that Jaime had a "Ned complex", but after re-reading that chapter, its possible that he had a Stark complex.  Brandon's actions in the throne room, fearless and defiant, would greatly impress a young Jaime.  And indeed, a drunken Jaime tells Catelyn that Brandon was more like him (Jaime) than his brother Ned.  Jaime could have been projecting how he thought he would react (come out and die) upon the situation if his sister had been kidnapped.

Also, we have the mystery of why Ethan Glover was spared by the Mad King.  The best reason that I can come up with, is to coerce Brandon into lying about something.  It's the same scenario Martin put Ned through.  Ned was willing to face execution rather than lie, until they threatened him with Sansa.  Glover was Brandon's squire, and a great friend to Ned.

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There is no reason, given the information we have, to doubt this.

Even Aerys, crazy as he was, would not have ordered the arrest of Brandon and all of his companions for just riding into the city/courtyard and making noise.

The account given is entirely consistent with Brandon's character as given by three other sources: Catelyn (who felt it necessary to beg him not to kill stupid little Petyr), Barbrey Dustin, and his own brother.

Ned says Brandon's nature is what brought him to an early death--note there is no recrimination against the crazy king, or even the girl-stealing prince, just the wolf blood being what led to both Brandon and Lyanna's deaths while young. Ned was not drunk, or trying to upset anyone when he said this. If you can't take Jaime's word, at least take Ned's. 

Does Jaime get it word for word? Hard to say, but he's probably got it close enough that it makes no major difference. As to his state of inebriation...some people are more truthful when drinking than when sober.

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When we receive some information that is untrue, we usually have contradictory version(s) from other PoVs. Here we have nothing like that; on the contrary, we have corroborating details - Brandon's "wolf blood", "rash thing to do", "gallant fool", "wild wolf", and outside the series, his reaction to Rhaegar crowning Lyanna when it nearly came to blows.

There are certainly things which don't fit, e.g. why Brandon went to KL in the first place when Rhaegar lived in DS and I doubt it was exactly a secret that he and Aerys didn't get on; there was almost certainly some scheming behind the scenes which fanned the conflict, but it doesn't seem that the whole thing was entirely fabricated. The way Jaime describes it, it looks like a very public challenge to Rhaegar, witnessed by many, so even if Jaime didn't see it personally, there would have been many sources.

 

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I have questioned this account by Jaime as well. Not when I initially read the conversation with Jaime and Cat, but later, in rereads, a comment in Game always struck me as unusual.

Quote

 

"I don't want Brandon to die," Tommen said timorously. He was a sweet boy. Not like his brother, but then Jaime and Tyrion were somewhat less than peas in a pod themselves.
"Lord Eddard had a brother named Brandon as well," Jaime mused. "One of the hostages murdered by Targaryen. It seems to be an unlucky name."
"Oh, not so unlucky as all that, surely," Tyrion said. AGOT- Tyrion I

 

Hostage, huh? I don't know why, but this catches my attention. I think the common story assumes that Brandon came to the Red Keep, that he threatened the life of the crown prince, and that Aerys arrested him and sent for Rickard Stark to come to Kings Landing based on the charges of threatening to murder Rhaegar.

But why call him a hostage, and not a prisoner? I know this seems like a minor detail but it makes me wonder what might have actually occurred. 

Our story has Theon, who is a "ward" hostage of the Starks, to keep his father Balon Greyjoy in line. I guess Theon can also be considered a prisoner. And, Jaime is both a prisoner of Robb Stark as well as a hostage, and Sansa is a known hostage who is also a prisoner of the Lannister's.

I understand I might be reading the "hostage" comment incorrectly by Jaime, but I think there could be something there. I think GRRM is all about hints that lead the readers mind in a direction that might not be correct, but he leads us down that path anyway, because he likes to mess with our perceptions. But, what if Brandon was more of a hostage than a prisoner? Why would Aerys think he needed to keep a Stark hostage? To keep the Stark's in line? Was Rickard plotting something and Aerys suspected? And why, after Brandon and Rickard were both dead, did Aerys demand Ned (and Robert's) heads?

So did Brandon really ride up to the Red Keep and call for Rhaegar to come out and die? Or maybe Brandon went to the Red Keep, thinking he was going to exchange himself for someone else (Lyanna, perhaps)? Truly, if Brandon thought that that Rhaegar had his sister, would he not demand "give me my sister" instead of "come out and die"? That never made any sense to me. What word did Brandon receive that sent him to King's Landing, and did it even have to do with Lyanna? Maybe it had to do with Ashara? The detail of the information that Brandon might have received that caused him to go to the Red Keep could not be more vague. Catelyn thinks she knows, but she tends to think she knows a lot more than she actually does. I think a whole lot of what we the reader thinks we know isn't very close to what might have actually happened (kind of like Catelyn).

Also, Jaime states that Brandon was "one of the hostages murdered by Targaryen", but who were the other hostages that were murdered? Does he mean the men that presented to the Red Keep with Brandon? Those friends of Brandon's that Catelyn tells us rode to KL with Brandon;  Ethan Glover, Kyle Royce, Elbert Arryn, and Jeffory Mallister.  These men were from the north, the vale and the riverlands, all area's that might have been plotting against Aerys. And Brandon and Elbert were heirs to the north and the vale, respectively, like Theon is the heir to the Iron Islands. So did Aerys actually demand hostages from these area's of his kingdom, and they went to King's Landing in good faith, only to end up dead. The story of Brandon reportedly threatening Rhaegar's life could all be a lot of crap, spread by Targaryen supporter's to try to justify Aerys actions. It is possible, not probable, but possible.

Quote

Jaime poured the last half cup of wine. "He rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die. But Rhaegar wasn't there. Aerys sent his guards to arrest them all for plotting his son's murder. The others were lords' sons too, it seems to me." ACOK-Catelyn VII

I know Jaime says this to Catelyn, but I wonder if Jaime actually witnessed this action by Brandon, or he might just be reciting what he himself might have been told happened. Jaime might have been on the crapper when this happened and never had first person knowledge of the event at all. I think there is a chance that Jaime's account of this should be considered inaccurate. It might be accurate, but it might also be a story that is told that has little base in truth, and more in the way of court gossip.

I think if Brandon really rode into the Red Keep demanding the crown prince "come out and die" that would be a stupid thing to do. I know the text tell is that Ned thought his brother had "the wolf blood" but that doesn't mean Ned thought Brandon was stupid. Ned thinks Arya has the wolf blood as well as Lyanna, and it doesn't seem like Ned thinks Arya is stupid. Maybe Ned just thought Brandon, Lyanna and Arya are rash, which is very different than stupid.

Anyway, I guess all of my rambling is just my way of saying I think it is very possible that the story of Brandon riding up to the Red Keep and demanding Rhaegar "come out and die" could very far from the truth.

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Jaime is only paraphrasing when he says Brandon "rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die." Even without Jaime being misinformed or lying, there is a good possibility that Brandon's words were more tactful than 'come out and die,' leaving no ambiguity to his intentions for a duel instead of murder. Rather than reciting a long, half-forgotten speech, Jaime shortened it for brevity to the core message.

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While I think that Brandon rode up there and shouted something to challenge Rhaegar reminiscint of how Jaime says it... and do believe it happened, I think a lot of people judged Brandon a "fool" for it from hindsight perspective, and that includes Hoster Tully.

Because while Ned may compare it to rashness and boldness, I sure don't think "wolf's blood" means "stpuid". Ned's first words about Brandon to Cat surely do not match with Ned thinknig of Brandon as a fool or stupid. Instead he says Brandon was the one fit to be a Hand. We can see how hemight say "to rule" as the first born to whom Ned looked up to, but "the Hand"? Espcially given the perception of "fool Brandon" by others, saying that Brandon should be the "Hand" instead of him, is well odd.

Well, let's forget the hind-sight knowledge for a moment. Brandon learns that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna with at least 2 KG knights (Arthur and Oswell). Last time princes and princesses ended up messing with betrothals of a Baratheon the Targs had a near rebellion on their hands. And the North for sure would take it as an offense. Chances that Northern lords will press Rickard to go to war over it is big, even those who don't want to go to war - but just for the power games that are always played.

What would Brandon think the politically best way to solve this ASAP without getting his father and brothers and Robert and their kingdoms dragged into it? Isn't a one-on-one duel with witnesses the perfect solution to it? Even if Brandon dies in a duel against Rhaegar, it still takes all the wind out of people pressing for rebellion. Stark's and Northern honor would have been defended, and Robert will just have to suck it up. And you can't go to war over your heir dying in a duel. But such a challenge to a duel must typically be uttered in a way that the challenged one cannot refuse, without the challenged one risking to look a dishonorful coward.

The whole Lyseen torture equipment and the way Brandon dies shows he's most of all a savior who's willing to sacrifice his life, for his father. And so I think that Brandon challenged Rhaegar to a duel in strong language to sacrifice himself, in order to preserve the peace, and hence he had important Vale witnesses with him to report back to Arryn and Robert as well as the North for his father.

It was only foolish in hindsight with a king who sees everything as treason, acts to cheat the laws and the social codes. Bold and rash, Brandon may have been, but one can make a strategic case out of it... a strategy that Aerys fucked up.

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12 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This what a starved and thirsty Jaime who Catelyn purposely got really drunk on wine has to say:

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII

"Brandon was nothing like you."
 
"If you say so. You and he were to wed."
 

"He was on his way to Riverrun when . . ." Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. ". . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do." She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon.

 

Jaime poured the last half cup of wine. "He rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die. But Rhaegar wasn't there. Aerys sent his guards to arrest them all for plotting his son's murder. The others were lords' sons too, it seems to me."
 

"Ethan Glover was Brandon's squire," Catelyn said. "He was the only one to survive. The others were Jeffory Mallister, Kyle Royce, and Elbert Arryn, Jon Arryn's nephew and heir." It was queer how she still remembered the names, after so many years. "Aerys accused them of treason and summoned their fathers to court to answer the charge, with the sons as hostages. When they came, he had them murdered without trial. Fathers and sons both."

 

"There were trials. Of a sort. Lord Rickard demanded trial by combat, and the king granted the request. Stark armored himself as for battle, thinking to duel one of the Kingsguard. Me, perhaps. Instead they took him to the throne room and suspended him from the rafters while two of Aerys's pyromancers kindled a blaze beneath him. The king told him that fire was the champion of House Targaryen. So all Lord Rickard needed to do to prove himself innocent of treason was . . . well, not burn.
 
"When the fire was blazing, Brandon was brought in. His hands were chained behind his back, and around his neck was a wet leathern cord attached to a device the king had brought from Tyrosh. His legs were left free, though, and his longsword was set down just beyond his reach.
"The pyromancers roasted Lord Rickard slowly, banking and fanning that fire carefully to get a nice even heat. His cloak caught first, and then his surcoat, and soon he wore nothing but metal and ashes. Next he would start to cook, Aerys promised . . . unless his son could free him. Brandon tried, but the more he struggled, the tighter the cord constricted around his throat. In the end he strangled himself."As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."
 
"Aerys . . ." Catelyn could taste bile at the back of her throat. The story was so hideous she suspected it had to be true. "Aerys was mad, the whole realm knew it, but if you would have me believe you slew him to avenge Brandon Stark . . ."

To threaten the life of a Targaryen is treason since they are the rightful rulers and they are the government.  Brandon deserved what he got from Aerys.

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2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

While I think that Brandon rode up there and shouted something to challenge Rhaegar reminiscint of how Jaime says it... and do believe it happened, I think a lot of people judged Brandon a "fool" for it from hindsight perspective, and that includes Hoster Tully.

Because while Ned may compare it to rashness and boldness, I sure don't think "wolf's blood" means "stpuid". Ned's first words about Brandon to Cat surely do not match with Ned thinknig of Brandon as a fool or stupid. Instead he says Brandon was the one fit to be a Hand. We can see how hemight say "to rule" as the first born to whom Ned looked up to, but "the Hand"? Espcially given the perception of "fool Brandon" by others, saying that Brandon should be the "Hand" instead of him, is well odd.

Well, let's forget the hind-sight knowledge for a moment. Brandon learns that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna with at least 2 KG knights (Arthur and Oswell). Last time princes and princesses ended up messing with betrothals of a Baratheon the Targs had a near rebellion on their hands. And the North for sure would take it as an offense. Chances that Northern lords will press Rickard to go to war over it is big, even those who don't want to go to war - but just for the power games that are always played.

What would Brandon think the politically best way to solve this ASAP without getting his father and brothers and Robert and their kingdoms dragged into it? Isn't a one-on-one duel with witnesses the perfect solution to it? Even if Brandon dies in a duel against Rhaegar, it still takes all the wind out of people pressing for rebellion. Stark's and Northern honor would have been defended, and Robert will just have to suck it up. And you can't go to war over your heir dying in a duel. But such a challenge to a duel must typically be uttered in a way that the challenged one cannot refuse, without the challenged one risking to look a dishonorful coward.

The whole Lyseen torture equipment and the way Brandon dies shows he's most of all a savior who's willing to sacrifice his life, for his father. And so I think that Brandon challenged Rhaegar to a duel in strong language to sacrifice himself, in order to preserve the peace, and hence he had important Vale witnesses with him to report back to Arryn and Robert as well as the North for his father.

It was only foolish in hindsight with a king who sees everything as treason, acts to cheat the laws and the social codes. Bold and rash, Brandon may have been, but one can make a strategic case out of it... a strategy that Aerys fucked up.

That's an interesting interpretation but still doesn't explain why Brandon expected Rhaegar to be in KL. Plus, I am not sure if one is allowed to duel a crown prince even if his father is sane. Does the World Book offer any historical parallel?

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19 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

That's an interesting interpretation but still doesn't explain why Brandon expected Rhaegar to be in KL. Plus, I am not sure if one is allowed to duel a crown prince even if his father is sane. Does the World Book offer any historical parallel?

Would Lord Lyonel Baratheon's duel against Aegon V's champion Dunk count?  

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42 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

To threaten the life of a Targaryen is treason since they are the rightful rulers and they are the government.  Brandon deserved what he got from Aerys.

Have you read the Hedge Knight? 

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2 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Yes.  Have you?

Well, it kinda disproves your point, doesn't it? Dunk beats a Targaryen Prince in full view of an audience and his guilt is not in doubt, yet he was still allowed a trial.

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