*Come out and die* never happened.

[kissdbyfire]

Wasn't there a duel when one of Aegon V sons backed out of a marriage contract? A Baratheon against Dunk as Aegon's champion?

from the WB:

“Even that could not restore the peace, nor win back the friendship of Storm’s End, however. The father of the spurned girl, Lord Lyonel Baratheon of Storm’s End—known as the Laughing Storm and famed for his prowess in battle—was not a man easily appeased when his pride was wounded. A short, bloody rebellion ensued, ending only when Ser Duncan of the Kingsguard defeated Lord Lyonel in single combat, and King Aegon gave his solemn word that his youngest daughter, Rhaelle, would wed Lord Lyonel’s heir.”

 

[WSmith84]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Wasn't there a duel when one of Aegon V sons backed out of a marriage contract? A Baratheon against Dunk as Aegon's champion?

from the WB:

“Even that could not restore the peace, nor win back the friendship of Storm’s End, however. The father of the spurned girl, Lord Lyonel Baratheon of Storm’s End—known as the Laughing Storm and famed for his prowess in battle—was not a man easily appeased when his pride was wounded. A short, bloody rebellion ensued, ending only when Ser Duncan of the Kingsguard defeated Lord Lyonel in single combat, and King Aegon gave his solemn word that his youngest daughter, Rhaelle, would wed Lord Lyonel’s heir.”

Problem is we don't know who proposed the duel: was it the Laughing Storm or Egg himself? I can believe Lyonel did, but we haven't got proof either way.

I think though we can definitely say that both Brandon and Rickard had the right to a trial by combat: Dunk (whose guilt was not in doubt) and Tyrion (who is not a knight or lord) were both entitled to it (and Tyrion was accused of regicide!).

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, WSmith84 said:

Problem is we don't know who proposed the duel: was it the Laughing Storm or Egg himself? I can believe Lyonel did, but we haven't got proof either way.

I think though we can definitely say that both Brandon and Rickard had the right to a trial by combat: Dunk (whose guilt was not in doubt) and Tyrion (who is not a knight or lord) were both entitled to it (and Tyrion was accused of regicide!).

Yeah, I know what you're saying. And yes, we can most definitely agree on the Starks right to a proper trial which they didn't get b/c Aerys was batshit crazy.

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Wasn't there a duel when one of Aegon V sons backed out of a marriage contract? A Baratheon against Dunk as Aegon's champion?

from the WB:

“Even that could not restore the peace, nor win back the friendship of Storm’s End, however. The father of the spurned girl, Lord Lyonel Baratheon of Storm’s End—known as the Laughing Storm and famed for his prowess in battle—was not a man easily appeased when his pride was wounded. A short, bloody rebellion ensued, ending only when Ser Duncan of the Kingsguard defeated Lord Lyonel in single combat, and King Aegon gave his solemn word that his youngest daughter, Rhaelle, would wed Lord Lyonel’s heir.”

 

The use of single combat makes me think Dunk and Lyonel met 1v1 on the battlefield. 

[kissdbyfire]

16 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

The use of single combat makes me think Dunk and Lyonel met 1v1 on the battlefield. 

Yeah, I agree. I just thought the wording suggested the possibility of a duel type fight between the two. 

[Weirwood Ghost]

My take on Jaime's point of views is that he possess the most insight and honesty. He can be deplorable and arrogant to the point of hilarity, but I've never perceived him to be a game-playing conspirator. His primary concern is that of Cersei...and by default her children. Other than that there's no reason to speculate he's telling porky pies.

Jaime is telling his PoV when he's older, not a day after Brandon rode in. Life tends to temper ones views.

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Weirwood Ghost said:

My take on Jaime's point of views is that he possess the most insight and honesty. He can be deplorable and arrogant to the point of hilarity, but I've never perceived him to be a game-playing conspirator. His primary concern is that of Cersei...and by default her children. Other than that there's no reason to speculate he's telling porky pies.

Jaime is telling his PoV when he's older, not a day after Brandon rode in. Life tends to temper ones views.

Just a minor nitpick... this was indeed true in the past but it isn't anymore. 

[Ygrain]

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Wasn't there a duel when one of Aegon V sons backed out of a marriage contract? A Baratheon against Dunk as Aegon's champion?

from the WB:

“Even that could not restore the peace, nor win back the friendship of Storm’s End, however. The father of the spurned girl, Lord Lyonel Baratheon of Storm’s End—known as the Laughing Storm and famed for his prowess in battle—was not a man easily appeased when his pride was wounded. A short, bloody rebellion ensued, ending only when Ser Duncan of the Kingsguard defeated Lord Lyonel in single combat, and King Aegon gave his solemn word that his youngest daughter, Rhaelle, would wed Lord Lyonel’s heir.”

 

Now, that's interesting - a Baratheon against the king's champion, Rickard Stark against fire as king's "champion"... might there be a pattern? It seems that of late, it is not a custom for the king to fight his duels himself. Would that apply for the Crown Prince, as well?

[Adam Yozza]

39 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Now, that's interesting - a Baratheon against the king's champion, Rickard Stark against fire as king's "champion"... might there be a pattern? It seems that of late, it is not a custom for the king to fight his duels himself. Would that apply for the Crown Prince, as well?

I think that would probably come down to personal preference. I don't see Rhaegar; who was willing to fight Robert on the Trident; would be the kind of guy to let someone else fight a duel for him

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

I don't see Rhaegar; who was willing to fight Robert on the Trident; would be the kind of guy to let someone else fight a duel for him

That's true, but I'm rather interested in, say, general habit - would he even be expected to fight his duels himself?

[Adam Yozza]

14 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

That's true, but I'm rather interested in, say, general habit - would he even be expected to fight his duels himself?

Well, anyone's entitled to a champion. Of course, it's probably seen as cowardly and dishonorable if a capable fight didn't fight for himself. As to whether he would be expected to as a Prince; I think he would. Aerion and Maegor fought their own trials/duels themselves, so there's equal precedent either way.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 6/25/2017 at 2:57 PM, sweetsunray said:

Well, that's my issue. That wel all too easily dismiss the first opinion of Ned about Brandon, in a private setting, as Ned's "inferiority complex". But the "inferiority" complex" only works imo if we didn't have the story the OP's about. I think the discrepancy between Ned saying on the one hand to Cat that Brandon's the one who should be Hand, then telling Arya about the early grave and wolf's blood, and the statue he gives Brandon, should not be swept off as "oh, then it's his inferiority complex talking" and in the other moment "Ned's saying Brandon was a rash fool in a polite way". Ned's a ruler for 15 years, fought and won a war, father of 5. He's got a lord's face. Cat thinks of him as a shy young man one nistance, and cold and icy another. Jaime thinks of him as cold as ice 15 years ago already. He's not Brandon, but I wouldn't call him "not Northern" either. As for the Stark children - initially Robb looks more southern (from the outside), but Cat already sees more Northern Ned in him the night of the catspaw attacking Bran.  He's the guy who can look at his dying best friend and king and tell him "he wasn't as bad as Aerys II". I don't think "an inferiority complex" is really the issue here. That's what Cat makes of it, because like her father, she thinks Brandon was a gallant fool.

We don't know whether messages were sent or not. But they could have been sent. Take my proposal: Brandon totally could have sent Rickard a message to his father, to inform him not to respond himself, but laying out his intentions. It would explain why Rickard's political response remained low key. 

Letting Rickard handle it is not that easy imo at all. You'd have Boltons, Umbers and Karstarks and other lords of houses butting in, and watching Rickard. How quickly weren't they testing and watching when things went wrong in aGoT?  How many would have pushed for a harsh reaction from the warden himself and calling the banner, do you think? If Brandon leaves it to his father, then his father gets into this impossibel situation over an abducted daughter. If Rickard is too soft on it, his lords will think him weak, and Robert gets rightfully upset. If Rickard talks tough, then you easily have an army flocking.

But Rickard's son and heir can talk tough without getting armies and bannermen into it. Then it's just a family matter, right? More than a giant political powder keg. And if he dies - Rickard still has two other sons as heir. Rickard's lords can't call for blood and war, if Rickard's heir died in a duel. A duel was arguably the least harmful situation to save everyone's face and avoid war, preserve the status quo. Heck, if Brandon had died in a duel with Rhaegar, nobody would even make issue anymore if the victor kept his stolen prize. 

<snip

I'm not dismissing anything. Ned has a definite sore spot when it comes to his big brother the almighty Brandon. It's not remotely a rare thing in human nature for one sibling to outshine another and there to be some issues from it. I'm saying that must be factored into the equation. And if you go back and check that post, you'll see that's what I said--that it should be factored in. Ned's talking as much about feeling inadequate as he is about Brandon supposedly being able to handle things. Would Brandon have made a better Hand? Possibly, but Robert would never have asked Brandon to be Hand in the first place, which Ned would realize if he would stop and think for a minute. 

I didn't call him not Northern. I pointed out text that indicates that other characters tend to think of Stark-ness or northern-ness as going along with the wolf blood. If you don't think Ned thought of that in comparing himself to Brandon...well you must not be a younger sibling of a star.

Yes, that's possible, but it would make Rickard as stupid as Brandon. For Rickard to be okay with Brandon handling that situation requires either that 1) Rickard is just as bad as Brandon, and there's zero evidence for that, 2) Rickard is a weak man to the point of comparisons with Tytos Lannister, or 3) Rickard has no clue what his eldest son is like. 

They wouldn't be butting in, because Rickard would have left for King's Landing before they knew about it. Taking a token guard for the trip, no more than he would usually take with him, would keep Aerys from getting worried about him trying to make a show of force or pick a fight. 

Rickard had been Lord of Winterfell presumably for decades at that point, and we can at least assume from what Barbrey Dustin says that he had no problem taking counsel. He'd have a much better understanding of the impact of his actions on all of his vassals AND how to handle the crazy king than Brandon would have. Rickard also might well have sounded out others at court to find out his best approach in addressing the king about the issue.

I don't mean to hold him up as a standard of wisdom and virtue, but Rickard was doing pretty well in life up until his eldest committed treason, and he had a couple decades on his kids in the world experience department. He had managed to not get killed up to whatever age he was. He had two of his kids lined up for power marriages. He had kept the peace in his region for the most part, hadn't been stripped of any titles or responsibilities. He was powerful enough that pretty much no one would mess with him, but not so powerful that he was feared like Tywin was. 

Apparently not. Brandon had sons of bannermen with him when he rode into KL. He got all of them and their fathers killed, the exception being little Ethan Glover. And then Aerys' over-reaction and fear that Ned and Robert would get in on it led to his calling for their heads, and Jon Arryn's refusal and calling his banners. Thus...war. Call me crazy but I think a guy with decades of ruling experience, and most likely a cooler head, could have managed a better outcome, if only that the war was delayed by a few months and fewer northerners were killed in the Red Keep.

Agreed, but there's a proper way to challenge someone to a duel, and the etiquette is even more strict when royalty is involved and more important when the king is insane. Brandon did not follow the customary steps, and apparently forget to take into account that the king was insane. You do not challenge someone to a duel by screaming "come out and die." You also don't take a posse with you for a duel. And that's regular duels, not even taking into account challenging the crown prince...whose father burns people for fun. All that riding, for all those miles, and he never came up with a better plan. 

It's a nice idea that it could have been handled quietly and privately as a family matter, but that's not possible under the circumstances. Duels to the death are neither private nor quiet. And arguably the crown prince abducting a Lord Paramount's daughter is a public matter. The best hope for keeping things under wraps would have been the two patriarchs (Westeros is heavily patriarchal after all) sitting down together and trying to work out a solution that was acceptable to both of them. Not saying it would have worked, but it would have been better than Brandon's method of conflict-resolution. 

[SFDanny]

On 6/25/2017 at 8:08 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Have you read the Hedge Knight? 

The problem for Brandon could have been he was too in love with the story, but didn't understand the differences between the past and present. One can hear the story of Ser Duncan the Tall at Ashford meadow, which was probably quite popular among Old Nan's tales, and think this is a solution possible under all circumstances when confronting one of the royal blood. But Aerys II Targaryen wasn't anything like the Crown Prince Baelor, Hand of the King. Nor was he like Daeron the Good. Nor for that matter, was Brandon like Aerion - who issued the challenge at Ashford. Brandon was the challenger of one of royal blood, who by doing so, put his life and that of his companions in the hands of a mad king who loved to kill those who challenged royalty (Duskendale being a prime example.)

Brandon issues his challenge thinking he has the right to do so, but the right to do so has nothing to do with what Aerys would do. Aerys sees a chance to do away with two High Lords and their heirs and takes the opportunity to dispense justice as he sees fit, not as Baelor Breakspear would have done.

If you want an example of Aerys's thinking, I think the better comparison is Michael Corleone from the Godfather. He sees an opportunity to do away with his enemies and seizes it. These are his rivals for power, and he is not about to surrender a chance to do away with them. Certainly not when a party of young nobles foolishly place themselves at his mercy. In his mind, and in truth, these are all men who are sworn to obey the king's justice, and by their actions they not only put themselves in mortal danger, but that of their Houses as well. Traditions like a Trial of Seven don't figure into what Aerys thinks is justice. Putting the life of his heir at risk of the outcome of a duel isn't remotely in the cards for the game Aerys is playing.

I think any read of this history that doesn't put this action of Brandon's party into the context of the political threat Aerys saw, right or wrong, in the growing alliance between the Starks, Tullys, Arryns, and Baratheons misses the wellspring of Aerys's "justice." His paranoia ruled his mind. 

To the question put by @The Doctor's Consort in the OP, Jaime's account reads like an personal account of what happened, not a second hand one. At least, we have nothing in his tale to Catelyn that suggest it is. It would not be unusual to have a party of nobles to arrive in King's Landing and have access to the Red Keep. It would be unusual if they made it to Aerys, but that isn't what Jaime tells us. Aerys, we are told, sends his guards to arrest them for threatening Rhaegar's life. I don't see a reason to doubt this account. He has no reason to lie to Catelyn about this.

[SFDanny]

5 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The best hope for keeping things under wraps would have been the two patriarchs (Westeros is heavily patriarchal after all) sitting down together and trying to work out a solution that was acceptable to both of them. Not saying it would have worked, but it would have been better than Brandon's method of conflict-resolution. 

Very good post, as usual, LB. I like the last point quite a bit. Rickard would have very likely taken a very different tack if Brandon wasn't held hostage and accused of plotting the murder of Rhaegar. A smart man, and Rickard was such a man, would have gone to the Red Keep himself and asked for information about his daughter. Telling Aerys that she was last seen in Rhaegar's company would been better than saying he wanted to duel with the Crown Prince. There were differences between Rhaegar and Aerys that could have been exploited - such as hints at a second marriage unapproved by Aerys - that a smarter and more experience person could have tried.

[The Fattest Leech]

10 hours ago, SFDanny said:

The problem for Brandon could have been he was too in love with the story, but didn't understand the differences between the past and present.

Actually, we don't know if Brandon knew this Aerion story at all, and that is ok because the point of the companion books is for the readers benefit... so we can argue geeky details such as this! The broad strokes to the events in the Hedge Knight can lay out some details for the future/current events in the story. It gives examples of precedent. And George hardly ever (if ever) does a one to one comparison in either his inspiration sources or even in his own work in and out of ASOIAF.

[SFDanny]

19 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Actually, we don't know if Brandon knew this Aerion story at all, and that is ok because the point of the companion books is for the readers benefit... so we can argue geeky details such as this! The broad strokes to the events in the Hedge Knight can lay out some details for the future/current events in the story. It gives examples of precedent. And George hardly ever (if ever) does a one to one comparison in either his inspiration sources or even in his own work in and out of ASOIAF.

Oh, I think it likely that the highly educated heir of Winterfell knew of the events at Ashford meadow. Maester Walys would have seen to his lessons, and, if the rumors are true, it seems very unlikely that Old Nan would not tell her charges the story of the heroic Ser Duncan the Tall. But you are right, we don't know for sure this is the source of Brandon's "precedent" that made him think he could challenge one of the royal blood to a duel. Whatever his inspiration, he learned the wrong lesson. He didn't understand precedent doesn't bind a king. The king is the law, and this king had other motives that formed his response to Brandon's challenge. This king didn't give a damn about precedent.

In some ways it is funny, because it seems to me the heroic swordsman Brandon failed to learn the lesson the starry-eyed Sansa so painfully did over a decade later. "Life is not a song." Nor is it a heroic story of the past, and the idea a duel would be allowed by Aerys to settle things between House Stark and the Iron Throne is naive at best. Hoster Tully had it right.

[The Fattest Leech]

 

15 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

it seems very unlikely that Old Nan would not tell her charges the story of the heroic Ser Duncan the Tall.

True, she did play kissyface with him, after all 

 

[Philokles]

Maybe they were all traumatised by the very graphic sex scene Old Nan threw in and repressed the memory.

[the conquering bastard 25]

It's complex and simple at the sametime.

I believe that Brandon and Rickon along with those that went with them to KL were in on the kidnapping plot. 

Think about it why would Brandon think that Rheagar went to KL when he was known  to keep court at Dragon Stone and there was known bad blood between the king and his son? This makes no sense.

Then there is the position of Lyanna on the Trident. Why was she not either in Winterfell coming down with Brandon for his wedding? Or with the Tullys learning the ways of a southern court? 

Im of the mind that she was being held either at castle Darry or Harrenhal. Both of which are sworn loyalty to house Targ but primarly to the Prince as it was House Whent via his kinguard brother that set up the tourney in the first place and house Darry has provided 7 knights to the kinguard. Not to mention Jamie Lannisters talks of Darry was that of a man of duty. 

Then take into account Dany's vision of her brother with Elia. Elia asked Rheagar whether he was going to make a song for the prince. When he reply no he already has a song of fire and ice. 

I think this is Elia's way of asking where he was going. As stated by Barristan he would go to Summerhall and compose sangs and such but he would do so alone. 

 

I believe that Brandon's part of the plan was to purposely get arrested. Protocol would demand that Rickon and his northern's would come to answer for Brandon's crimes. But if one was trying to get enough lords together to summon a great council and displace the king this could and would have been a brilliant opening move. 

Lyanna's kidnapping was the signal for the lords beholden to Rheagar to come to KL and overthrow Aerys in a bloodless coup. It would have worked if Rheagar had left someone in place to stay his crazy ass father's hand. 

 

Yet even that's suspect. 

Remove the Stark, it's supporters along with those of Riverlands and Vale. There can be no coup as no Rheagar doesn't have the military or political backing to make his move. He needs the major heads from every region to throw their support behind him to remove the king. He's got the Lannister's support if it removes Jamie from the KG. Stark Lyanna becomes queen and her children are in the line of succession. It's in Dorne's best interest as Aegon can still become king even if Elia herself doesn't become queen.  The Tully's are tied to the Starks via marriage with Brandon and Cat. Rheagar has the crownlands as their high lord. Nobody cares about the Greyjoys. Now the Tyrells are the tricky point as they could throw their support behind that of Aerys' but then think about it Marg might not have been born but her older brother would have been and a marrigae between Rheanys and Willis would have been a boon and set right the marriage under Aegon V's reign. The only house that he would have to be wary of is that of the Stormlands but Cersei in Roberts bed would go a long way to soothe Robert's wounded pride and he can direct his hate at the crowned Prince but what can he do when he would be without allies and outnumbered. I could even see Rheagar asking Arryn to become Hand as Rheagar doesn't seem to trust Tywin Lannister.

 

Those are my thoughts and That's how I feel

[sweetsunray]

15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I'm not dismissing anything. Ned has a definite sore spot when it comes to his big brother the almighty Brandon. It's not remotely a rare thing in human nature for one sibling to outshine another and there to be some issues from it. I'm saying that must be factored into the equation. And if you go back and check that post, you'll see that's what I said--that it should be factored in. Ned's talking as much about feeling inadequate as he is about Brandon supposedly being able to handle things.

I said "we"... not "you", which means my response actually included myself. I'm not completely arguing against "Ned's second brother complex". It actually has been my standard interpretation until last week. Last week I realized that we've always focused on judging Brandon's action from a hindsight POV, never really from Brandon's POV and how it actually may have been tactical. I also realized that the standard, default interpretation that Ned having a complex about his brother for his utterances to Cat in aGoT, Catelyn II about Brandon actually comes from Catelyn, very early on in the story, when we don't have the contrasting story of Brandon going into the Red Keep challenging Rhaegar yet.

But let's just look at the text.

Quote

That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me." (aGoT, Cat II)

Rather than an inferiority complex I note "jealousy", because Cat reminds him that originally she was betrothed to Brandon. It's probably not the first time that Cat has mentioned Brandon the past 15 years, and that it's a sore point is evident with his bitterness. Ned's the one who married her, lived with her for 15 years and has 5 children with her. He might have wanted another young woman for a bride, but without any protest he married the woman who was to be his brother's and who was initially disappointed with him that Ned wasn't as dashing as Brandon. It's more pride, jealousy, anger and annoyance that I see in Ned's response than "inferiority".

But notice also how Ned affirms that Brandon would know what to do and that he always did. Without the "He always did", you might interprete his "Brandon would know what to do" as sarcasm (especially since he has a bitter twist to his mouth). But "He always did" is an affirmation that Brandon would know what to do. And in light of what happened (in the fragmented tidbits we know about it), and the tone said, I just can't chalk it off as "inferiority complex". Ned certainly never ever thinks of Brandon as a fool.

Meanwhile Ned's words are said in a Catelyn POV who does the interpreting. But we know that Catelyn does not know everything, that Ned kept information from her and his children. Bran believes Rickard Stark was beheaded. Catelyn believes that Brandon was strangled first as Rickard looked on and then was executed. It's Jaime who tells her that Rickard Stark was cooked in his armor above a blaze of wildfire, while Brandon was held to a choking device. In other words, neither we the reader, nor Catelyn have the accurate context to assess why Ned is so certain that Brandon always knew what to do.

Ned's inferiority complex is nothing more than an interpretation, rather than a fact. It may be a correct interpretation, but it also may be wrong. I am only offering an alternative explanation to reconcile both utterances by Ned regarding Brandon for consideration. Furthermore, the rest of aGoT and especially Ned's behavior and personal thoughts do not reflect enough of an inferiority complex that he needs to be petted and pitied. His occasional self-doubts are at a normal level to me that I expect any responsible leader would have. 

Quote

Would Brandon have made a better Hand? Possibly, but Robert would never have asked Brandon to be Hand in the first place, which Ned would realize if he would stop and think for a minute. 

I don't see what that has anything to do with why Ned might say that Brandon should have been Hand, when Ned knows he's dead, wasn't Robert's best mate, and went to the Red Keep and challenge Rhaegar.

15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I didn't call him not Northern. I pointed out text that indicates that other characters tend to think of Stark-ness or northern-ness as going along with the wolf blood.

And I pointed out characters that definitely regard Ned Stark as a typical icy Stark.

Quote

If you don't think Ned thought of that in comparing himself to Brandon...well you must not be a younger sibling of a star.

Irrelevant.

15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Yes, that's possible, but it would make Rickard as stupid as Brandon. For Rickard to be okay with Brandon handling that situation requires either that 1) Rickard is just as bad as Brandon, and there's zero evidence for that, 2) Rickard is a weak man to the point of comparisons with Tytos Lannister, or 3) Rickard has no clue what his eldest son is like.

Basically you're throwing out opinions about Brandon and Rickard in association, while having fragmented information.

It's as if your premisse is: Brandon was stupid -> thus ...

All I am proposing is to question the assumption whether it was so stupid. Simply because in hindsight it ended up being a mistake, doesn't mean it was stupid or unsound. Characters can make tactically sound decisions on erronous information and therefore end up going totally wrong.

Is it as stupid as you claim it to be that Brandon believed Rhaegar to be in KL? What if Rhaegar took Lyanna and announced to witnesses that he was going to the King's Landing, exactly like Cat announed to take Tyrion to Winterfell, but ended up taking an altogether different road and destination? Would you still call Brandon stupid for riding to King's Landing and expecting Rhaegar to be at the Red Keep then? No, it wouldn't be stupid then. Brandon would have gone to wrong destination based on deliberately announced false information.

Most of us argue that whenever a Lyanna hater posits that "she could have communicated" that we don't know enough to be certain that no message was sent. The same applies to speculations about Brandon's movement. He may or may not have sent a messenger to Winterfell. We do not know. What we do know was that he wasn't actually at Riverrun when he learned of Lyanna. Instead of he rode for King's Landing, per Cat's words to Jaime about Brandon. But he also sent news to Riverrun and a message for Cat.
 

Quote

 

"He was on his way to Riverrun when . . ." Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. ". . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do." She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon. (aCoK, Cat VII)

Brandon Stark had bid her wait as well. "I shall not be long, my lady," he had vowed. "We will be wed on my return." Yet when the day came at last, it was his brother Eddard who stood beside her in the sept. (aGoT, Catelyn X)

 

We learn the latter first, and it almost sounds as if Brandon was at RR and vowed to return personally at the time, but later we have clarification that Brandon wasn't in RR. The only way that Brandon could have thus vowed to Catelyn that he would return, was by having been the one who sent a messenger and news to RR himself. And if he sent a rider to RR with a letter or verbal message, then there is a precedent to speculate that he would have done the same for WF.

The question is whether he sent a message by raven or an actual rider to RR and thus the same method for the possible message to WF, and that all depends on where Brandon was exactly when he learned of it. Take for instance the Crossroads - Brandon would have sent riders then. It would be very unlikely that Brandon would have trusted Darry, Maidenpool or Harrenhal as a stop-over to send ravens. If that happened, then it's unlikely that rider arrived at WF before Brandon arrived at KL. KL would take about a fortnight from the Crossroads Inn, perhaps a few days less. It would certainly take a rider a fortnight from the Crossroads to WF.

So there goes your "stupid Brandon was stupid to not send a message, and if he did then Rickard was as stupid and as bad" logic.

16 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

They wouldn't be butting in, because Rickard would have left for King's Landing before they knew about it.

Ah, so the warden's daughter gets kidnapped. Brandon learns of it on the road, but Rickard learns of it super secretively before Dustins and White Harbor learn of it? Not very likely. Varys knew of the Tyrion kidnapping before Ned, and Jaime knew of it within a day after them. All three were in the same location. But by road Barrowhall comes before WF, and captains and crew sailing from a port such as Maidenpool to White Harbor would love nothing better than to gossip right?

16 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Rickard had been Lord of Winterfell presumably for decades at that point, and we can at least assume from what Barbrey Dustin says that he had no problem taking counsel. He'd have a much better understanding of the impact of his actions on all of his vassals AND how to handle the crazy king than Brandon would have. Rickard also might well have sounded out others at court to find out his best approach in addressing the king about the issue.

Yes, he might have. And there would always be a Bolton vying to forward himself as a counselor, to make the most of the situation.

16 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I don't mean to hold him up as a standard of wisdom and virtue, but Rickard was doing pretty well in life up until his eldest committed treason

Ah, so now Aerys's paranoia has to be taken as fact? Is challenging a crown prince to a duel treason? That is not all that clear. Meanwhile we do know that a crown prince isn't above the law. And kidnapping a warden's daughter is quite doubtfully legal.

17 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Apparently not. Brandon had sons of bannermen with him when he rode into KL. He got all of them and their fathers killed

Now that sounds like blaming the victim and exonerating Aerys II. It was Aerys II who decided to kill them, without a trial. And Aerys II was acting illegally when he did that.

17 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Call me crazy but I think a guy with decades of ruling experience, and most likely a cooler head, could have managed a better outcome, if only that the war was delayed by a few months and fewer northerners were killed in the Red Keep.

  Ned's words: "Brandon would know what to do. He always did."

17 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Agreed, but there's a proper way to challenge someone to a duel, and the etiquette is even more strict when royalty is involved and more important when the king is insane. Brandon did not follow the customary steps, and apparently forget to take into account that the king was insane. You do not challenge someone to a duel by screaming "come out and die." You also don't take a posse with you for a duel. And that's regular duels, not even taking into account challenging the crown prince...whose father burns people for fun. All that riding, for all those miles, and he never came up with a better plan. 

Ah, so what is the "proper" etiquette? Do you have any textual evidence for the proper challenging etiquette?

As far as I know duel challenges are delivered in a way to provoke and with insults, especially when there is a chance that the one you want to challenge will want to widdle out of the challenge. Historically this would be done by slapping someone in the face, or by either insulting a beloved (such as a woman) or the other person in words and calling them a coward. It's only after the challenge is made, that the whole protocol of seconds running to and for comes into it. Screaming "come out and die" sounds exactly like a duel challenge put in such a way that Rhaegar would come off as a coward if he doesn't come out, that is, if he was there.

You don't take a "posse" to a duel, but you do take seconds and witnesses to a duel. Those seconds and witnesses cannot be commoners or peasants, but historically were peers. Alexander Pushkin's verse novel Eugene Onegin has Onegin and his challenger's second make several mistakes against proper duelling etiquette, amongst them Onegin shows up late without a second or witness and appoints his commoner servant. All this would have been precedent for the second of Lensky (the challenger) to call of the duel and declare Lensky the winner. But the second does not use it to Lenksy's advantage, so the duel occurs and Lenksy dies by a lousy aimed shot of Onegin who didn't want to kill Lesnky at all (they were friends).

Now we do not know what the Westerosi duel etiquette actually is, but hmmm, Brandon's "posse" are an heir to a warden and sons of lords, aka peers. Sounds like possible intended "witnesses" and "second" to me. If George applies anything remotely like historical etiquette then Brandon showed up with the perfect second and witnesses to duel a crown prince.

And how much is it common knowledge that Aerys likes to burn noblemen for fun?