*Come out and die* never happened.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I belive that "Come out and die" is a drunken Jaime's TL;DR line for a sequence of events that ended up with Brandon demanding a single combat against Rhaegar, propably in a not very courteous way (not that it would matter with the mad king). The line also happens, IMO, to convey well what actually happened provided that one uses their common sense and imagination (to fill in the huge narrative gaps).

The thing is that this line has been used very liberally in order to villify Brandon and "prove", well, anything actually. I have ended up not caring though, without new material to discuss it's not too unexpected that there would be "revisionist" readings of the story, for the sole purpose to have something different to think about...

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

Also, lords travel with retinues. Pretty much all the time. So Brandon having some of his bannermen along with him is not strange or remarkable in the slightest. 

 

[SFDanny]

6 minutes ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

Also, lords travel with retinues. Pretty much all the time. So Brandon having some of his bannermen along with him is not strange or remarkable in the slightest. 

 

Only Ethan Glover is one of his bannermen. The make up of the party has long been of interest and debate on these boards, but it surely indicates this is not a normal party of northern bannermen traveling with the Lord's heir. This is more likely reflective of different relationships. Friends, foster-brothers, hand picked men in a wedding party, or allies in politics perhaps, but not bannermen.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

9 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

<snip

But notice also how Ned affirms that Brandon would know what to do and that he always did. Without the "He always did", you might interprete his "Brandon would know what to do" as sarcasm (especially since he has a bitter twist to his mouth). But "He always did" is an affirmation that Brandon would know what to do. And in light of what happened (in the fragmented tidbits we know about it), and the tone said, I just can't chalk it off as "inferiority complex". Ned certainly never ever thinks of Brandon as a fool.

<snip

I don't see what that has anything to do with why Ned might say that Brandon should have been Hand, when Ned knows he's dead, wasn't Robert's best mate, and went to the Red Keep and challenge Rhaegar.

<snip

Basically you're throwing out opinions about Brandon and Rickard in association, while having fragmented information.

It's as if your premisse is: Brandon was stupid -> thus ...

All I am proposing is to question the assumption whether it was so stupid. Simply because in hindsight it ended up being a mistake, doesn't mean it was stupid or unsound. Characters can make tactically sound decisions on erronous information and therefore end up going totally wrong.

Is it as stupid as you claim it to be that Brandon believed Rhaegar to be in KL? What if Rhaegar took Lyanna and announced to witnesses that he was going to the King's Landing, exactly like Cat announed to take Tyrion to Winterfell, but ended up taking an altogether different road and destination? Would you still call Brandon stupid for riding to King's Landing and expecting Rhaegar to be at the Red Keep then? No, it wouldn't be stupid then. Brandon would have gone to wrong destination based on deliberately announced false information.

Most of us argue that whenever a Lyanna hater posits that "she could have communicated" that we don't know enough to be certain that no message was sent. The same applies to speculations about Brandon's movement. He may or may not have sent a messenger to Winterfell. We do not know. What we do know was that he wasn't actually at Riverrun when he learned of Lyanna. Instead of he rode for King's Landing, per Cat's words to Jaime about Brandon. But he also sent news to Riverrun and a message for Cat.
 

We learn the latter first, and it almost sounds as if Brandon was at RR and vowed to return personally at the time, but later we have clarification that Brandon wasn't in RR. The only way that Brandon could have thus vowed to Catelyn that he would return, was by having been the one who sent a messenger and news to RR himself. And if he sent a rider to RR with a letter or verbal message, then there is a precedent to speculate that he would have done the same for WF.

<snip

Ah, so the warden's daughter gets kidnapped. Brandon learns of it on the road, but Rickard learns of it super secretively before Dustins and White Harbor learn of it? Not very likely. Varys knew of the Tyrion kidnapping before Ned, and Jaime knew of it within a day after them. All three were in the same location. But by road Barrowhall comes before WF, and captains and crew sailing from a port such as Maidenpool to White Harbor would love nothing better than to gossip right?

Yes, he might have. And there would always be a Bolton vying to forward himself as a counselor, to make the most of the situation.

Ah, so now Aerys's paranoia has to be taken as fact? Is challenging a crown prince to a duel treason? That is not all that clear. Meanwhile we do know that a crown prince isn't above the law. And kidnapping a warden's daughter is quite doubtfully legal.

Now that sounds like blaming the victim and exonerating Aerys II. It was Aerys II who decided to kill them, without a trial. And Aerys II was acting illegally when he did that.

<snip

Ah, so what is the "proper" etiquette? Do you have any textual evidence for the proper challenging etiquette?

As far as I know duel challenges are delivered in a way to provoke and with insults, especially when there is a chance that the one you want to challenge will want to widdle out of the challenge. Historically this would be done by slapping someone in the face, or by either insulting a beloved (such as a woman) or the other person in words and calling them a coward. It's only after the challenge is made, that the whole protocol of seconds running to and for comes into it. Screaming "come out and die" sounds exactly like a duel challenge put in such a way that Rhaegar would come off as a coward if he doesn't come out, that is, if he was there.

You don't take a "posse" to a duel, but you do take seconds and witnesses to a duel. Those seconds and witnesses cannot be commoners or peasants, but historically were peers. Alexander Pushkin's verse novel Eugene Onegin has Onegin and his challenger's second make several mistakes against proper duelling etiquette, amongst them Onegin shows up late without a second or witness and appoints his commoner servant. All this would have been precedent for the second of Lensky (the challenger) to call of the duel and declare Lensky the winner. But the second does not use it to Lenksy's advantage, so the duel occurs and Lenksy dies by a lousy aimed shot of Onegin who didn't want to kill Lesnky at all (they were friends).

Now we do not know what the Westerosi duel etiquette actually is, but hmmm, Brandon's "posse" are an heir to a warden and sons of lords, aka peers. Sounds like possible intended "witnesses" and "second" to me. If George applies anything remotely like historical etiquette then Brandon showed up with the perfect second and witnesses to duel a crown prince.

And how much is it common knowledge that Aerys likes to burn noblemen for fun?

Okay, but inferiority complex was only one of my points. You've ignored the natural tendency to idolize the dear departed. Brandon supposedly always knowing what to do is no more to be regarded as actual fact than anything else the characters have told us.

Again, I only said it has to be factored in.

You don't see the fact that Ned is speaking from emotion and not from reason as being an important aspect in analyzing Ned's words? It speaks to his frame of mind throughout the scene, and calls into question the accuracy of his assessment of his brother's abilities.

Fragmented information is all we have until the series is finished. Fragmented information and not believing what information we have is the entire basis for this thread.

I've thought it over from more than one angle. Threatening the life of the prince when the king is known to be insane is stupid. There's just no way around that. I would not be remotely surprised to learn that Brandon indeed had bad info (possibly from Littlefinger) but that does not make his action any more intelligent. 

That wasn't me. My analysis has nothing to do with where Rhaegar was or was not, or where Brandon thought he was. That was somebody else. I'm fine with Brandon going to KL. It's what he did when he got there that was idiotic.

Sending a message or not is irrelevant to my point that he had no business going there in the first place, and even less business making ridiculous threats.

If he sent a message to his father, and then went ahead and committed treason instead of waiting in KL for either Rickard to join him or send instructions, that actually makes Brandon's actions in the Red Keep even worse, because then all he had to do was sit tight and wait for backup.

If Brandon sent a message, then yes it's actually very likely. Rickard could have been on the move within 24 hours of hearing about it, before the word had a chance to spread. If Brandon sent no message then we're right back to him being an idiot. 

Apples and oranges. Varys has a spy network, and Cat was traveling near seaports. Lyanna was taken somewhere on the road between Winterfell and Riverrun, no seaports so no gossiping sea captains, and Varys would have gained nothing by spreading that news to various northerners. Gossip can only go as fast as the people who carry it so unless you're counting on witnesses who have not been identified, or Rhaegar's taking Lyanna rather publicly by sea to Dorne, there is no particular reason to suspect the entire north knew about the abduction prior to a potential departure by Lord Rickard for King's Landing. Rumors can always be denied. It's a lot harder to deny a bunch of noblemen's sons being held prisoner in the capital, and a summons from the king to account for their actions.

Which would make it no different than any other time in history in the north. House Stark managed to keep the Boltons in line pretty well up until Robb. 

Yes, Aerys' paranoia is taken as fact, because it is presented as fact throughout the series. He started coming unhinged long enough before any of this occurred that it is likely to be common knowledge among the highest nobility at least. The Wardens in particular have to know what they are dealing with the king. Even if there were efforts to keep the extent of his madness from being generally known, his appearance at Harrenhal with hair and fingernails that hadn't been cut for who knows how long, and erratic behavior and mood changes during the event would have been the death knell for secrecy regarding his condition. Everyone present at Harrenhal knew without doubt that their king was mad. 

Blaming the victim is an interesting term. It implies that a victim cannot be anything but entirely innocent. Brandon was not innocent. According to the information we have, he and his buddies went to the Red Keep and he yelled/screamed/loudly intoned for Rhaegar to "come out and die." That is treason. As to exonerating Aerys, no, but there is some doubt as to whether someone who is insane is truly accountable for their actions. Let me be clear: I don't think anyone who was with Brandon should have been killed, but Brandon himself is a "victim" who is entirely worthy of blame. 

By your own estimation the challenge is generally a slap to the face. That's historical precedent and thank you for adding it in to save me the trouble. Also acceptable would be sending a letter issuing the challenge, demanding satisfaction, saying the challenged should name seconds, etc. Duels have rules, and how to challenge is part of that. Traditionally the challenger issues the challenge and then the challenged has a chance to either offer public apology, make restitution, or choose weapons. Nothing in Brandon's words gives Rhagear any such choice. Screaming "come out and die" is not a challenge to a duel. It could certainly be considered an invitation to a beatdown, or a statement of intent to murder, but it is not a challenge. Had he yelled "Rhaegar, defend yourself" there would be a lot more room for discussion. That at least implies giving the other guy a fair chance to defend himself. Interestingly, the period of English history that most closely resembles Westerosi culture (14th century, per GRRM) is a century in which duels were no longer legal.

But lets say the rules haven't evolved into the gentlemanly and chivalric way of trying to kill each other that would mark later period duels. Let's say we go just with historic fact that is known, since The George hasn't given us much to go on in-universe except for one particular case of single combat to end a rebellion, and in which the offending party didn't even fight. In the Middle Ages, duels were used as a method of trial by combat, obviously, and they were also used for conflict resolution, but only when the courts could not solve the problem. Did Brandon go to any kind of judicial body and ask for them to deal with Rhaegar appropriately? No. And that's understandable given that the only person higher than Rhaegar is his father, who is crazy. Crazy King is not likely to administer justice, is he? Sure he might decide it's a good idea to irk the son he thinks is plotting against him by demanding he return the girl, but he's just as likely to tell the little lordling to run home and cry about it. But in what universe is the next logical step to call for the prince's death? You already know the king is crazy, and you're in his yard if not his house. And yes, Brandon knew Aerys was nutso. He was at Harrenhal. He saw the matted, uncleaned hair and beard, and the inches-long fingernails.

Seconds are chosen after the challenged has opted to fight.  And the seconds usually are the witnesses, as long as they aren't fighting. You also bring a doctor, but I don't recall any mention of Brandon's taking a maester along to KL. Maybe he figured Pycelle would do the honors? 

If George applies the closest historical precedent within Westerosi history, Rhaegar would not be fighting Brandon, just like Duncan didn't fight Lyonel Baratheon. If Brandon knows his history, he should know he'd be fighting a KG, not the crown prince. In which case it makes even less sense for him to call for Rhaegar to "come out and die" when he knows he's going to "duel" a stand-in. 

Given that he'd stopped using hangings and beheadings in favor of death by wildfire years before this event takes place, that knowledge was probably pretty common.

Look I don't have a problem with the idea that Brandon went to KL intending to challenge Rhaegar to a nice, civil duel. But if that's what his plan was then he messed it up with his choice of words. For a guy who supposedly always knew what to do, he really choked when it counted. 

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

You don't see the fact that Ned is speaking from emotion and not from reason as being an important aspect in analyzing Ned's words? It speaks to his frame of mind throughout the scene, and calls into question the accuracy of his assessment of his brother's abilities.

I don't think that even emotional Ned would assert that Brandon always knew what to do, after his first mentioning it, while knowing the full story of what happened and what was planned through Glover, no.

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Threatening the life of the prince when the king is known to be insane is stupid.

Doing anything with a mad king is stupid, as long as you can argue that a mad paranoid king will use it as a reason to cry "treason". Some people argue that Rickard was being stupid to arrange grand marriages for his children, because a mad king like Aerys would see treason in that. The fact that someone is bona fida mad makes that their thinking falls outside the norm, and thus is unpredictable. Judging a non-crazy person's actions using the mad person's unpredictable and abnormal reactions to it as measurement is flawed. We don't use a mad guy's abnormal way of thinking as the norm, let alone to claim that we readers AND the other characters could predict what Aerys would do.

Imagine HH with Rhaegar being called away or not being present and just the Mad King alone. Mad Aerys may have reacted so unpredictably and paranoid that he could have had the Knight of the Laughing Tree arrested at the first appearance for imagined treason, then have all the Starks and their bannnermen arrested and killed. And then readers would call the KotLT "stupid" for hiding her identity in front of the Mad King and getting all those people killed, because hiding your identity in front of a king who is known to be insane is stupid.

Aerys is paranoid of Rhaegar himself, and shows favoritism for Viserys, but he does not make Viserys heir until Rhaegar dies. Aerys was so paranoid of Tywin that he believed Tywin to be responsible of drowning Steffon Baratheon. And we know that Tywin openly declared that if Aerys died in Duskendale they still had Rhaegar. Yet, despite all the actual treasonous words and the irrationally believed treason, Aerys keeps Tywin on as Hand, allows him at the Red Keep, while much later he has no issue with burning his Hands. Pycelle claims to the Citadel that Aerys believed Tywin would kill him if he fired him as Hand. And he was so "reasonable" and "predictable" a thinker that Aerys believed it genial to make Tywin's son his personal bodyguard with a sword, to first guard his wife and preferred son Viserys, and then himself. Where's the logic in that? There is no logic in it. Aerys is unreasonable, illogic and unpredictable - exactly because he's mad. Maybe the same irrational fear that prevented Aerys from firing and executing Tywin also prevented Aerys from daring to name Viserys his heir instead of Rhaegar. If George had wanted it, he could have Aerys see Brandon as the ideal man to get rid of the crown prince he suspected of plotting against him.  Brandon could not possibly predict what Aerys would do: he could have been embraced by Aerys for all he knew for killing treacherously plotting Rhaegar in a duel and freeing Aerys to name Viserys his heir, just as much as Aerys executing him.  Step out of Aerys's mind. He's the insane, paranoid one, who sees treason in everything, and in one case is too fearful of doing anything against the men he suspects, and in the other has loyal men burned for failing him. He's by definition unpredictable, not our guideline, not the mind to measure anyone's actions by.

Any reasonable reader concludes that Brandon openly and loudly shouting for the crown prince to come out and die in front of many witnesses after riding about a fortnight to King's Landing means that Brandon publically challenged Rhaegar to a duel. Reframing it as "threatening the life of the prince" and totally ignoring the very obvious duel intent is using a mad man's frame of mind, and well illogic. Why can we so reaonably conclude that Brandon is challenging Rhaegar to a duel (which inherently includes a threat to both their lives)? Because we all know that if Rhaegar had been there, a duel would have been the outcome.

That Brandon believed Rhaegar to be there is also crucial to judge Brandon's alleged foolishness. If Brandon believes Rhaegar to be there - and his certainty makes it safe to assume he had been given false but believable information that Rhaegar was there - he also believes Rhaegar's friends to be there (including KG). One of Rhaegar's friends is supposedly the most honorable man in Westeros - the Sword of the Morning, Arthur Dayne. So, Brandon can count on Rhaegar's court faction to want to preserve martial honor, even if Rhaegar acted dishonorable by taking Lyanna. Furthermore, like everybody else, Brandon has seen with his own eyes at HH that in the presence of Rhaegar's court faction, Aerys is a weak king, effectively sidelined by his own son. Two KG are loyal to Rhaegar over Aerys, and a third is Tywin's son. Brandon has every reason to believe that Aerys is only king still in name, and that Rhaegar is the actual power, when at court.

So, at the very least we should judge Brandon's actions from the duel intent, which is exactly what Hoster Tully was doing when he called Brandon a "gallant fool" when he learned of Brandon's intent to ride for KL. Hostery Tully isn't calling him a gallant fool for wanting to "threaten the life of the crown prince with a known mad father as king", but because he reasonably concludes that Brandon intends to duel with Rhaegar. That's why he uses the word "gallant". But we should not generalize Hoster Tully's use of the word "fool". Hoster Tully here is not thinking in terms of the interests of House Stark, but his own. Hoster Tully has nothing to gain if Brandon wins a duel against Rhaegar, and he has everything to lose if Brandon dies - his eldest daughter doesn't get to marry the heir of WF. So, for Hoster Tully, the duel intent is a foolish thing, gallant, but foolish.

House Stark has more to lose by not challenging Rhaegar and more to gain from such a duel. Even if Brandon dies in a duel, House Stark still recovers and gains something. Their house's honor. They wouldn't have just let Rhaegar take a Stark daughter without tangible protest.

The duel intent also makes the point that Brandon could die a moot one. Brandon would have factored in the possibility that he would die, exactly because he sought a duel. That you might end up dead in a duel to the death with Rhaegar is one of the two possible outcomes. Quite evidently, Brandon was totally willing to sacrifice himself.

Lastly, we can ask ourselves - if such a duel had happened, would war have followed from it? Of course not. Regardless of what Aerys ends up doing months or years later to provoke the lords into rebellion, the Lyanna debacle would be a closed case after the duel, regardless whether Brandon wins or loses the duel.

6 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

If he sent a message to his father, and then went ahead and committed treason instead of waiting in KL for either Rickard to join him or send instructions, that actually makes Brandon's actions in the Red Keep even worse, because then all he had to do was sit tight and wait for backup.

Why would Brandon need any back-up of his father to duel a man one-on-one? What was this sitting tight and waiting for back-up going to accomplish? A reasonable conversation with a mad guy - who hasn't clipped his nails nor cut his hair for years, who makes the son of the previous Hand he suspected of treason his bodyguard, and is too fearful of firing that said Hand in person - and a happy diplomatic conclusion? Sorry, but that would be the definiton of insanity. Aerys is unreasonable and unpredictable. He's not someone you solve a diplomatic crisis with, let alone, by coming down and have a talk around the round table. Not to forget his perceived weakness with only weak sycophant lords and foreigners as courtiers, while all the meaningful players are in Rhaegar's camp.

It is more folly to expect a diplomatic solution between Rickard and Aerys, than a martial honorable solution between Brandon and Rhaegar. And calling a challenge to a duel to the death "treason" does not make it treason. Again, stop using the mad guy's thinking to frame Brandon's actions as factual treason. 

7 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Apples and oranges. Varys has a spy network, and Cat was traveling near seaports. Lyanna was taken somewhere on the road between Winterfell and Riverrun, no seaports so no gossiping sea captains, and Varys would have gained nothing by spreading that news to various northerners. Gossip can only go as fast as the people who carry it so unless you're counting on witnesses who have not been identified, or Rhaegar's taking Lyanna rather publicly by sea to Dorne, there is no particular reason to suspect the entire north knew about the abduction prior to a potential departure by Lord Rickard for King's Landing. Rumors can always be denied. It's a lot harder to deny a bunch of noblemen's sons being held prisoner in the capital, and a summons from the king to account for their actions.

Not apples and oranges. Brandon was ALSO traveling near seaports. We know Brandon learned of it on the road, and we know that Lyanna was kidnapped 10 leagues from HH. We know from Cat's abduction of Tyrion that riders ride in all wind directions to relay what they've seen. We know that certain men rode like the devil to warn Tywin. So, at least one witness rode like the devil for Winterfell. Those would have been the one who stumbled on Brandon traveling southwards, either at the Crossingroads (to turn for Riverrun) OR more north of the Crossingroads, anywhere between the Twins and near Darry. What ports do you have near there? The same ports nearest to where Cat kidnaps Tyion - Saltpans and Maidenpool. And one of Rhaegar's best friends Mooton is from Maidenpool. Cat's abduction of Tyrion had loads of people riding in all directions to spread the news, not just King's Landing. The same can be safely assumed to have happened with regards to Lyanna's abduction. News of the abduction would have reached Saltpans and Maidenpool as sure as Brandon learned of it. Hell, the fact that Brandon learned of it while on the road is the clearest evidence Brandon himself has that the kidnapping is the rampant news spreading rampantly.

7 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

House Stark managed to keep the Boltons in line pretty well up until Robb. 

And House Stark wasn't publically embarassed with a daughter's abduction like that before... oh wait! There was one - a daughter abducted by Bael the Bard, and wouldn't that be the story that eventually leads to a Bolton slaying a Lord Stark. Hmmm....

7 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Yes, Aerys' paranoia is taken as fact, because it is presented as fact throughout the series. He started coming unhinged long enough before any of this occurred that it is likely to be common knowledge among the highest nobility at least. The Wardens in particular have to know what they are dealing with the king. Even if there were efforts to keep the extent of his madness from being generally known, his appearance at Harrenhal with hair and fingernails that hadn't been cut for who knows how long, and erratic behavior and mood changes during the event would have been the death knell for secrecy regarding his condition. Everyone present at Harrenhal knew without doubt that their king was mad.

You misunderstood my meaning when I said "So, now Aerys's paranoia ought to be taken as fact?" I did not mean to question the fact that Aerys is paranoid. I meant to question the certainty that Aerys's paranoid framing of Brandon committing treason as fact.

Yes, Aerys is obviously looking mad at HH and that his suspicions against the KotLT make clear to everyone there that the guy is foolishly paranoid is evident too. What is not evident is that he has much power at court. On the contrary, by everything anyone present there can see King Aerys has little effectual power and it all seems in Rhaegar's hands. 

7 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

It implies that a victim cannot be anything but entirely innocent. Brandon was not innocent. According to the information we have, he and his buddies went to the Red Keep and he yelled/screamed/loudly intoned for Rhaegar to "come out and die." That is treason.

No it is not treason. It's a challenge to a duel.

7 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Nothing in Brandon's words gives Rhagear any such choice. Screaming "come out and die" is not a challenge to a duel. It could certainly be considered an invitation to a beatdown, or a statement of intent to murder, but it is not a challenge. Had he yelled "Rhaegar, defend yourself" there would be a lot more room for discussion. That at least implies giving the other guy a fair chance to defend himself. Interestingly, the period of English history that most closely resembles Westerosi culture (14th century, per GRRM) is a century in which duels were no longer legal.

It is very much a duel challenge, and yes one worded so to make it impossible for Rhaegar to decline or offer an apology. Come on. He kidnapped Lyanna. How in the hell would an apology make up for that? "I, Rhaegar, apologize for abducting your sister. Now, that's settled I'll just go back inside and fuck your sister some more." Yeah, that would work  

George picks and chooses from several periods, and again we are not certain of Westerosi duel etiquette, nor of its illegality. We do know it's not illegal for a prince or a crown prince to fight in a trial by combat, and that the man who ends up killing the crown prince in such a combat isn't executed for treason.

8 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

If George applies the closest historical precedent within Westerosi history, Rhaegar would not be fighting Brandon, just like Duncan didn't fight Lyonel Baratheon. If Brandon knows his history, he should know he'd be fighting a KG, not the crown prince. In which case it makes even less sense for him to call for Rhaegar to "come out and die" when he knows he's going to "duel" a stand-in.

Not entirely correct. A prince has the right to choose a champion, but could also choose to fight himself, as evidenced by the trial of 7 where three princes chose to fight themselves, even one another, and the crown prince died of a blow to the head. So, it's not certain that Brandon would be fighting a KG at all. Secondly, Rhaegar is a man who does try to solve issues and problems personally. He looked for the KotLT personally. He jousted himself. When has Rhaegar shown to let KG do what he believes he could do himself? NEVER. Rhaegar is not a man that Brandon would expect to ignore the personal challenge and pick a KG to do the fighting for him.

8 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Given that he'd stopped using hangings and beheadings in favor of death by wildfire years before this event takes place, that knowledge was probably pretty common.

I wasn't sure anymore when Aerys started to burn people he arrested. The first he burns alive are the Darklyns and House Hollard after they surrendered in 277. He then commences to use this regularly as an execution method. So, I agree it would be known that he burns those he believes to be traitors.

But he equally remains hidden for many years, and his first public reappearance is HH, where he comes off as weak. The tourney was organized for and funded by Rhaegar. Aerys and Rhaegar could not be more contrasting in show of prowess, following, sanity and power. Aerys lost all credibility at the tourney. And I wouldn't put it past Varys to have advized Aerys to go to HH with the intent to expose the king as a mad weak king, given his riddle of where power resides. And given the rumors about the tourney's intent, it would have looked to Brandon and others, that Rhaegar was making a play for political power. That regardless of Aerys being king in name, the perception of effective politcal power was in Rhaegar's advantage, and that Aerys was no more than a puppet.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Any reasonable reader concludes that Brandon openly and loudly shouting for the crown prince to come out and die in front of many witnesses after riding about a fortnight to King's Landing means that Brandon publically challenged Rhaegar to a duel

...

Hostery Tully isn't calling him a gallant fool for wanting to "threaten the life of the crown prince with a known mad father as king", but because he reasonably concludes that Brandon intends to duel with Rhaegar. That's why he uses the word "gallant".

...

It is more folly to expect a diplomatic solution between Rickard and Aerys, than a martial honorable solution between Brandon and Rhaegar.

...

No it is not treason. It's a challenge to a duel.

Hurray, finally someone pointing out the self-evident...

I am really baffled why anyone would read this 'come out and die' situation differently, except perhaps for "meta" reasons that pertain to fandom preferences.

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

Let us not overlook the clear literary parallel to (none other than) JRR Tolkien's Silmarillion. After the Elves are nearly destroyed in the Battle of the Sudden Flame, their king Fingolfin in wrath and despair rides -- a long way -- into Morgoth's fortress.

He circles the Dark Lord's tower, calling hom a coward and the lord of slaves (ie. too weak to have anyone follow him willingly). He is not quoted as precisely calling for a duel, but Morgoth and all his minions know that is exactly what is happening. Not wanting to appear weak, Morgoth comes out and fights Fingolfin, one on one, in a duel. Being a god, Morgoth eventually wins, but is scarred and limps thereafter from the wounds Fingolfin inflicted. 

There is precisely zero chance that The George is not referencing this, as it is possibly the most epic duel in all of fantasy. He just changed the outcome to something horrible and unsatisfying, because that's what he does with these kinds of stories. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

14 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Only Ethan Glover is one of his bannermen. The make up of the party has long been of interest and debate on these boards, but it surely indicates this is not a normal party of northern bannermen traveling with the Lord's heir. This is more likely reflective of different relationships. Friends, foster-brothers, hand picked men in a wedding party, or allies in politics perhaps, but not bannermen.

God this all makes so much more sense if we assume the impetus for Robert's Rebellion was just a drunk bachelor party prank. Just a bunch of bros riding down to KL and picking up their buddy in the medieval equivalent of a party bus, only to get impatient and have the bachelor "honk the horn" to get Rhaegar's ass down to the courtyard so they can leave and start wenching.

Little did they know that Rhaegar had already started the party earlier!

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

God this all makes so much more sense if we assume the impetus for Robert's Rebellion was just a drunk bachelor party prank. Just a bunch of bros riding down to KL and picking up their buddy in the medieval equivalent of a party bus, only to get impatient and have the bachelor "honk the horn" to get Rhaegar's ass down to the courtyard so they can leave and start wenching.

Little did they know that Rhaegar had already started the party earlier!

That's not an interpretation I've read over my ten plus years on this forum, but if you want to argue it go right ahead. I don't buy it for a minute, but be my guest.

You see, most people look at the party make up and see its unusual nature and think some mixture of all the possibilities I put forward are likely. You're the first to suggest it was a bachelor party gone wrong. Congratulations!

[The Commentator]

On 6/25/2017 at 0:48 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

There is no reason, given the information we have, to doubt this.

Even Aerys, crazy as he was, would not have ordered the arrest of Brandon and all of his companions for just riding into the city/courtyard and making noise.  Unless they all farted at the same time to the tune of the "Dornishman's Wife".  That would clearly offend the royal nose.  But yeah, threatening to kill the prince of the realm, a realm of which he was a subject, is in keeping with what we know of Brandon.  He deserved to die".

The account given is entirely consistent with Brandon's character as given by three other sources: Catelyn (who felt it necessary to beg him not to kill stupid little Petyr), Barbrey Dustin, and his own brother.

Ned says Brandon's nature is what brought him to an early death--note there is no recrimination against the crazy king, or even the girl-stealing prince, just the wolf blood being what led to both Brandon and Lyanna's deaths while young. Ned was not drunk, or trying to upset anyone when he said this. If you can't take Jaime's word, at least take Ned's. 

This lends credence to the theory that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree.  The booming voice is suspect, however. I do not like the idea that she's the knight but there it is.   

Does Jaime get it word for word? Hard to say, but he's probably got it close enough that it makes no major difference. As to his state of inebriation...some people are more truthful when drinking than when sober.

 

[Greymoon]

On 24/06/2017 at 8:55 PM, The Doctor's Consort said:

I always doubted that Brandon went to KL and demanded Rhaegar to face him. Does anyone else believes that the Come out and die is utter bs?

There are two ways for Jaime to know what Brandon did. One, Brandon was allowed to ender Red Keep armed along with his entourage or he went to KL and screamed outside of the Walls and Jaime happened to be there to hear him. If Jaime wasn’t present when Brandon said it he couldn’t know what happened and it could had been created from someone who had something to gain from a civil war that brings chaos and death. Maybe someone like Varys.

If it didn't happen, then we should look at the whole story differently. I'm trying to figure out a workable alternative... warnings for heavy speculation and very little textual proof... it's just a bit of fun, really.  

• Brandon didn't ride to the red keep, but was captured.
• Brandon was captured because he was defending Lyanna.
• Brandon was defending Lyanna because he was present when she rode off with Rhagear.
• Brandon was present, because at Harrenhall, he made an alliance with Rhaegar to overthrow the Mad King.

So basically, in this scenario Brandon pledges the north to Rhaegar's cause and promises to help get rid of the mad king. Then, right before his marriage to Catelyn, Brandon rides off and renews his pledge to Rhaegar by giving his sister's hand away in marriage. He does that before Rickard Stark makes his way to the riverlands, so that papa wolf cannot intervene... but that's when things go terribly wrong: Aerys gets wind of the treachery and tries to prevent the alliance. Rhaegar and Lyanna barely escape the King's men, while Brandon the "gallant fool" and his companions valiantly defend them and get captured.

Textual evidence is sparse but...: 

• Brandon and Lyanna are often talked about in a similar fashion: they were a "pair of centors" and had "the wolf blood"; that "led them both to an early grave". Did they have a close sibling bond? Similar ideals? What if Lyanna did confine in Brandon, and what if Brandon with his wolf blood disliked Robert Baratheon and decided to take action? 
• there's rumors of Rhaegar orchastrating the tourney of harrenhall to gather support against his father. What if, with Rhaegar and Aerys making for such a blatant contrast at the tourney, the Prince did win the support of a few, Brandon Stark among them?
• Ned Stark doesn't seem to hold any grudge against Rhaegar and has been "lying" for 14 years - obvioulsy he lies about R+L and about Jon... but what if there was more to it than that?

One last point : the scenario detailed earlier would allow for possible parallels with : 

• Arianne Martell acting behind Doran's back by wanting to crown Myrcella and the plot being discovered and leading to a bloody end... (Brandon acting behind Rickard's back by offering his support to Rhaegar and the plot being discovered and leading to a bloody end)
• Robb Stark marrying Jeyne Westerling without Catelyn's knowledge, leading to tragedy. (Brandon marrying his sister off without Rickard's knowledge, leading to tragedy)
• Jon marrying off Alys Karstark while she appeals to their kinship and flees from an unwanted marriage (where Jon plays Brandon's part and Alys plays Lyanna's part... funnily enough, Alys looks enough like Arya to give Jon pause... and since Arya and Jon have similar features, Jon and Alys could probably pass for cousins or even siblings)

If Brandon was "in the know", it could be that his riding to the red keep and demanding Rhaegar "come out and die" was a rumor fabricated by Aerys and his councillors in order to save face and prevent Rhaegar from gaining support. From an outsiders perspective, Rhaegar the Kidnapper and Aerys the Mad are seen as two peas in a pod and the rebels have no reason to support the one over the other...

But that's just a fancy fanfiction at this point.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

That's not an interpretation I've read over my ten plus years on this forum, but if you want to argue it go right ahead. I don't buy it for a minute, but be my guest.

You see, most people look at the party make up and see its unusual nature and think some mixture of all the possibilities I put forward are likely. You're the first to suggest it was a bachelor party gone wrong. Congratulations!

You had best fix to check your sarcasm meter, boy-o. I don't know how much more absurd I could make that scenario. Add JonCon in as the bachelor party planner and have it be fun?

[WeKnowNothing]

Brandon riding up and yelling 'come out and die' to Rhaegar surely did happen. It's written in the text and I don't really think the book is lying to us. 

Anyway, I've always found it strange that Brandon yells 'come out and die [Rhaegar]," than asking "where is my sister." Surely, the latter would be showing that he cared about his sisters wellbeing an safety - but instead his 'come out and die' just give the impression that he is more intent about defending the 'dishonour' done to the Starks, not looking for Lyanna

[sweetsunray]

38 minutes ago, WeKnowNothing said:

Brandon riding up and yelling 'come out and die' to Rhaegar surely did happen. It's written in the text and I don't really think the book is lying to us. 

Anyway, I've always found it strange that Brandon yells 'come out and die [Rhaegar]," than asking "where is my sister." Surely, the latter would be showing that he cared about his sisters wellbeing an safety - but instead his 'come out and die' just give the impression that he is more intent about defending the 'dishonour' done to the Starks, not looking for Lyanna

1. Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna and carries her off.
2. Brandon is told of (1) and that Rhaegar went to KL
3. Brandon would logically assume that if Rhaegar carried Lyanna off and wnet to KL, that Lyanna is in KL

So, indeed, Brandon wouldn't be "searching for Lyanna", because he already thinks he knows where she is.

The question shouldn't be whether Brandon "looked for Lyanna" but instead attempted to "retrieve Lyanna" asap. I'd say yes.

So, why didn't he shout for Rhaegar to give his sister back? Well, if you believe a politically powerful guy stole your sister because he fancies her, and keeps her captive, you're hardly gonna say, "Give me my sister back," because you'd expect Rhaegar to say "Nope, I'm keeping her." And then your response will be, "Then I'll kill you first, so I can take her back myself."

Brandon had over a week at least to think this scenario through, and he decided to short-cut the demand directly to the duel.

[Ygrain]

10 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, if you believe a politically powerful guy stole your sister because he fancies her, and keeps her captive, you're hardly gonna say, "Give me my sister back," because you'd expect Rhaegar to say "Nope, I'm keeping her." And then your response will be, "Then I'll kill you first, so I can take her back myself."

Sorry but no. Anyone who thinks with his brain instead with his sword would at least try and ask for their sister first because coming with direct threats right into the seat of power of a politically powerful guy accomplishes nothing except getting you killed, which, surprise, surprise, is exactly what happened. 

[SFDanny]

On 6/28/2017 at 11:24 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

You had best fix to check your sarcasm meter, boy-o. I don't know how much more absurd I could make that scenario. Add JonCon in as the bachelor party planner and have it be fun?

Meter replaced. Thanks for the check. It's been on the fritz lately.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 27/6/2017 at 6:23 AM, SFDanny said:

I don't see a reason to doubt this account. He has no reason to lie to Catelyn about this.

The point is that he wasn't lying; he didn't knew the truth to begin with. He only knew the gossips which were created in order to create havoc among the King and the Lords Paramount.

On 27/6/2017 at 6:23 AM, SFDanny said:

It would not be unusual to have a party of nobles to arrive in King's Landing and have access to the Red Keep.

You are right. A king known for his fear to the point he wasn’t allowing his hair or nails to be cut would had allowed half a dozen armed men to ender his house. It would have been a piece of cake.

So you're rewriting the story now.   Trying to kill his prince fits with what we know of Brandon's hot temper.  The idiot should have sent a polite written message to the king and humbly ask for an audience.  

You cannot rewrite something when you haven't written it in the first place. The story isn't mine to write it according to mine taste. As for the rest are utter  but yet again I wasn't expecting something better than blind hate.

 

Dunk was a knight. 

Dunk most definitely wasn't a knight.

[maudisdottir]

I don't understand the point of spreading about a false story that Brandon threatened the Prince. Why is Jaime told a lie? Does Aerys think that's going to justify his subsequent torture and murder of the Starks? If you're going to burn someone alive in their armour while choking his son to death, you're obviously not playing by the rules so it's not really important to have a backup story. If Aerys was going to try to justify his horrific method of execution, he's going to blame Brandon for a much more treasonous act than what he's accused of.

And why wouldn't Brandon go to KL instead of Dragonstone? He doesn't know where Rhaegar is, but the last place I'd expect a man to take the girl he abducted is back to the home he shares with his wife and children. And logistically, it's a lot easier to go to KL and find out where they are (if they're not hiding inside Maegor's) than it is to get a boat to take them to Dragonstone only to discover they were never there, and then kick himself for not stopping at the Red Keep first.

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

the last place I'd expect a man to take the girl he abducted is back to the home he shares with his wife and children

And the second last place would be the home of the father he doesn't get along with :-)

It would be understandable if Brandon tried to check if Rhaegar was there, but that's not what he did - he seemed dead sure that Rhaegar was there, as if someone misinformed him

[Jon's Queen Consort]

6 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Why is Jaime told a lie?

If you had read the op or the post above your post you had seen that no one claims that Jaime was lying. Jaime just repeats the gossips that he had learned which however were no true but he couldn't knew it.

3 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

It would be understandable if Brandon tried to check if Rhaegar was there, but that's not what he did - he seemed dead sure that Rhaegar was there, as if someone misinformed him

It would seem that someone wanted to create chaos and a war between the Crown and the majority of the High Lords. However I have no idea about who would had something to gain by this war.