*Come out and die* never happened.

[Adam Yozza]

4 hours ago, Maia said:

Yes, but they were the challengers, not the challenged. And Aerion did try to get out of it with his "trial of Seven" ploy, where he clearly expected Dunk to be unable to assemble his side.  It was also Ser  Duncan the Tall, who duelled Lyonel Baratheon, not  Prince Duncan or Aegon V. Generally, challenges to higher ups, or among higher nobility seem to be quite rare, exactly because they are seldom accepted. Of course, Brandon himself accepted LF's challenge, so he was the type of person to expect that others would do the same.

Also, shouting for somebody to come out and die was hardly a proper challenge and it was idiotic not to check whether your target was even there before screaming your head off. Particularly since tensions between Aerys and Rhaegar were well-known, so why would you even expect the prince to be in the Red Keep? Misinformation here or there, why not check first?  Why go about it in this way at all when there were reasons to think that Aerys would be sympathetic to your position, if approached properly?

Maegor was the challenged not the challenger. Viseryna dared anyone who questioned Maegor's right to rule to challenge him, so Damon Morrigen challenged him to a trial by seven, from which only Maegor himself survived. Aerion was the challenged as well. Duncan was put on trial and demanded a trial by combat and while Aerion did ask for a trial of seven in order to avoid fighting Dunk alone, he did fight himself when I don't think he had to. He could have just named a champion for single combat.

And I know it was Ser Duncan who fought Lyonel. I don't think there was anything I said that implied I thought otherwise.

Now Brandon's situation is more akin to Maegor's than Aerion's, because it is a challenge not a trial, but my point is there is a precedent for King's (let alone Prince's) accepting a challenge to a dual and participating themself. Knowing what we do about Rhaegar, I feel we can quite confidently say that had Brandon come across Rhaegar before Aerys and made the challenge, Rhaegar would have accepted.

[Maia]

On 7.8.2017 at 3:55 PM, Adam Yozza said:

 Viseryna dared anyone who questioned Maegor's right to rule to challenge him, so Damon Morrigen challenged him to a trial by seven, from which only Maegor himself survived.

 

Exactly, the whole thing was Visenya's/Maegor's idea in the first place - they formally and publicly offered this solution to "prove" the legitimacy of Maegor's rule once and for all. If Ser Damon had just shown up and started screaming for Maegor to come out and die, their answer would have been very  different.

 

On 7.8.2017 at 3:55 PM, Adam Yozza said:

 He could have just named a champion for single combat.

Didn't Maekar force him and his brother Daeron the Drunken to fight in the challenge? It was part and parcel of his futile quest of making  good knights out of them, IIRC. And Aerion tried to wriggle out of it with the Trial of Seven ploy.

 

On 7.8.2017 at 3:55 PM, Adam Yozza said:

Now Brandon's situation is more akin to Maegor's

 How so? Aerys didn't offer him to solve his differences with Rhaegar via a duel. And shouting "to come out and die"  was not a formal challenge.

On 7.8.2017 at 3:55 PM, Adam Yozza said:

Knowing what we do about Rhaegar, I feel we can quite confidently say that had Brandon come across Rhaegar before Aerys and made the challenge, Rhaegar would have accepted.

Except that he couldn't accept if he really loved Lyanna. By seriously hurting/killing her brother, Rhaegar would have lost her. Yet holding back against a, by all accounts, excellent fighter like Brandon, even a little, would have been a certain death sentence. I mean, Brandon himself didn't manage to subdue Petyr without seriously wounding him, despite the disparity of their skill levels. So no, I am pretty confident that Rhaegar would have tried his utmost to avoid this duel - and, in fact, their going into hiding may have been intended to forestall  something like that.

[Jon Fossoway]

I think he made a public challenge thinking paranoid and fear-fueled Aerys would not do something stupid against him. He was riding with prominent heirs of the realm after all. I do think Brandon was hot headed for the most part but not on this issue. He went to King's Landing because he was demanding Aerys for an inmediate explanation; and at the same time, he was posing a duel to Rhaegar. Having nobles from powerful Houses by his sides, he must have thought, put him on a position of advantage before this mad King. Groomed to lead Brandon was bound to be a more active lord than his father, after all. He may have just miscalculated Aerys' reaction. 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

On 6/24/2017 at 10:09 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

This what a starved and thirsty Jaime who Catelyn purposely got really drunk on wine has to say:

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII

"Brandon was nothing like you."

 

"If you say so. You and he were to wed."

 

"He was on his way to Riverrun when . . ." Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. ". . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do." She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon.

 

Jaime poured the last half cup of wine. "He rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die. But Rhaegar wasn't there. Aerys sent his guards to arrest them all for plotting his son's murder. The others were lords' sons too, it seems to me."

 

"Ethan Glover was Brandon's squire," Catelyn said. "He was the only one to survive. The others were Jeffory Mallister, Kyle Royce, and Elbert Arryn, Jon Arryn's nephew and heir." It was queer how she still remembered the names, after so many years. "Aerys accused them of treason and summoned their fathers to court to answer the charge, with the sons as hostages. When they came, he had them murdered without trial. Fathers and sons both."

 

"There were trials. Of a sort. Lord Rickard demanded trial by combat, and the king granted the request. Stark armored himself as for battle, thinking to duel one of the Kingsguard. Me, perhaps. Instead they took him to the throne room and suspended him from the rafters while two of Aerys's pyromancers kindled a blaze beneath him. The king told him that fire was the champion of House Targaryen. So all Lord Rickard needed to do to prove himself innocent of treason was . . . well, not burn.

 

"When the fire was blazing, Brandon was brought in. His hands were chained behind his back, and around his neck was a wet leathern cord attached to a device the king had brought from Tyrosh. His legs were left free, though, and his longsword was set down just beyond his reach.

"The pyromancers roasted Lord Rickard slowly, banking and fanning that fire carefully to get a nice even heat. His cloak caught first, and then his surcoat, and soon he wore nothing but metal and ashes. Next he would start to cook, Aerys promised . . . unless his son could free him. Brandon tried, but the more he struggled, the tighter the cord constricted around his throat. In the end he strangled himself."As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."

 

"Aerys . . ." Catelyn could taste bile at the back of her throat. The story was so hideous she suspected it had to be true. "Aerys was mad, the whole realm knew it, but if you would have me believe you slew him to avenge Brandon Stark . . ."

This is one of my favorite chapters ever.    I just wanted to thank you for posting it.  I don't see any reason to believe that Brandon didn't do the.......Come out and die thing.  It certainly seems in character. 

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

This is one of my favorite chapters ever.   

Oh, I totally agree. This is one of those chapters where I am so drawn in that I feel as though I am in the dungeon with the characters. 

6 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I just wanted to thank you for posting it.  I don't see any reason to believe that Brandon didn't do the.......Come out and die thing.  It certainly seems in character. 

Yeah, I just wanted to post the actual dialogue to help avoid any selectively edited quotes. 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

10 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Oh, I totally agree. This is one of those chapters where I am so drawn in that I feel as though I am in the dungeon with the characters. 

Yeah, I just wanted to post the actual dialogue to help avoid any selectively edited quotes. 

LOL  Any reread of ACOK is almost a race to that chapter.  It is the chapter that made me realize there is SO MUCH MORE to Jaime Lannister than originally thought. 

I'm still reading the thread and I can see two options.  One is that Jaime is directly quoting Brandon with 'come out and die,' or he's being a smart mouth and summing up what Brandon said.  He's could be using that Lannister smart mouth of his in quickly summing up what happened, but I think he's telling the truth of what happened. 

[Adam Yozza]

5 hours ago, Maia said:

 

Exactly, the whole thing was Visenya's/Maegor's idea in the first place - they formally and publicly offered this solution to "prove" the legitimacy of Maegor's rule once and for all. If Ser Damon had just shown up and started screaming for Maegor to come out and die, their answer would have been very  different.

 

Didn't Maekar force him and his brother Daeron the Drunken to fight in the challenge? It was part and parcel of his futile quest of making  good knights out of them, IIRC. And Aerion tried to wriggle out of it with the Trial of Seven ploy.

 

 How so? Aerys didn't offer him to solve his differences with Rhaegar via a duel. And shouting "to come out and die"  was not a formal challenge.

Except that he couldn't accept if he really loved Lyanna. By seriously hurting/killing her brother, Rhaegar would have lost her. Yet holding back against a, by all accounts, excellent fighter like Brandon, even a little, would have been a certain death sentence. I mean, Brandon himself didn't manage to subdue Petyr without seriously wounding him, despite the disparity of their skill levels. So no, I am pretty confident that Rhaegar would have tried his utmost to avoid this duel - and, in fact, their going into hiding may have been intended to forestall  something like that.

Viseyna challenged them to prove themselves and their cause. It was Morrigen's idea to do it in a duel, but I admit that was likely what Maegor and Visenya were going for.

Maekar and Aerion both forced Daeron to fight. I don't recall anyone forcing Aerion.

Except Brandon likely didn't shout "Come out and die!" That's stupid even for him. The only witness we have for this is a drunken Jaime who is paraphrasing not quoting and was likely not even present when Brandon was arrested, since it's unlikely Brandon even got past the courtyard.

Maybe it was, but if he was challenged to it in person he would feel honour bound to accept no matter how much he wanted to avoid it.

[SFDanny]

52 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

Except Brandon likely didn't shout "Come out and die!" That's stupid even for him. The only witness we have for this is a drunken Jaime who is paraphrasing not quoting and was likely not even present when Brandon was arrested, since it's unlikely Brandon even got past the courtyard.

Except it is keeping with the Brandon we know about from other sources. We are told in the World Book the extent of Brandon's impulsiveness when he reacts to Rhaegar crowning Lyanna.

Quote

Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister's honor, for Lyanna Stark had long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon.(ASoI&F 127) bold emphasis added.

There are two things to take note of here. First, that in front of the King and the rest of Westeros only physical restraint from others stopped Brandon from confronting the Crown Prince. That doesn't speak to a well thought out response. Even Robert seems to know better and speaks of the crowning as only what was due Lyanna. Secondly, the reason given for Brandon's rage isn't just his sister's honor, but rather the fact her honor is slighted because she is already betrothed to Robert. This fits with Jaime's account both in Brandon's use of a challenge as his first response and with him never mentioning, that we know of, any concern for his sister. Brandon's concern seems to be the dishonor to House Stark, not Lyanna.

We also have the account of Brandon's personality from Lady Dustin.

Quote

"Someone has been down here stealing swords. Brandon's is gone as well."

"He would hate that." She pulled off her glove and touched his knee, pale flesh against dark stone. "Brandon loved his sword. He loved to hone it. 'I want it sharp enough to shave the hair from a woman's cunt,' he used to say. And how he loved to use it. 'A bloody sword is a beautiful thing,' he told me once." (ADwD 546-547) bold emphasis added

We also have to remember Ned's own words about his dead brother.

Quote

'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave. (AGoT 186) bold emphasis added

So Ned ties Brandon's rash behavior - his "wolf blood" - directly to his death. Ned's words to Arya, however, are not just a general description of his brother. He is speaking of the same actions that Jaime is describing to Catelyn. They both agree.

What we have is Maester Yandel, Lady Dustin, and Ned all providing accounts that paint the same picture of Brandon's personality and each one supporting the same behavior as typical - or even characteristic - of the same behavior Jaime gives us about Brandon's arrival in the Red Keep. I'm afraid trying to dismiss Jaime's tale as the wine speaking doesn't work here. Brandon was a skilled swordsmen who liked to use his sword to settle disputes. I don't think there is any reason to doubt Jaime is telling exactly what he knows happened. After all, he admits to incest, so what would his motive be for lying to Catelyn about this obscure piece of history? He certainly isn't trying to make Aerys look good.

[Adam Yozza]

15 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Except it is keeping with the Brandon we know about from other sources. We are told in the World Book the extent of Brandon's impulsiveness when he reacts to Rhaegar crowning Lyanna.

There are two things to take note of here. First, that in front of the King and the rest of Westeros only physical restraint from others stopped Brandon from confronting the Crown Prince. That doesn't speak to a well thought out response. Even Robert seems to know better and speaks of the crowning as only what was due Lyanna. Secondly, the reason given for Brandon's rage isn't just his sister's honor, but rather the fact her honor is slighted because she is already betrothed to Robert. This fits with Jaime's account both in Brandon's use of a challenge as his first response and with him never mentioning, that we know of, any concern for his sister. Brandon's concern seems to be the dishonor to House Stark, not Lyanna.

We also have the account of Brandon's personality from Lady Dustin.

We also have to remember Ned's own words about his dead brother.

So Ned ties Brandon's rash behavior - his "wolf blood" - directly to his death. Ned's words to Arya, however, are not just a general description of his brother. He is speaking of the same actions that Jaime is describing to Catelyn. They both agree.

What we have is Maester Yandel, Lady Dustin, and Ned all providing accounts that paint the same picture of Brandon's personality and each one supporting the same behavior as typical - or even characteristic - of the same behavior Jaime gives us about Brandon's arrival in the Red Keep. I'm afraid trying to dismiss Jaime's tale as the wine speaking doesn't work here. Brandon was a skilled swordsmen who liked to use his sword to settle disputes. I don't think there is any reason to doubt Jaime is telling exactly what he knows happened. After all, he admits to incest, so what would his motive be for lying to Catelyn about this obscure piece of history? He certainly isn't trying to make Aerys look good.

Quote me where I said Jaime was lying. I said he was likely not even there when it happened. Jaime learned all of this from a second hand source, because there is no way a man like Aerys is allowing Brandon to even enter the Throne Room, especially not armed. Even then, I don't dispute that Brandon's first response was to challenge Rhaegar nor that Brandon's impulsiveness was what got him killed. All I claimed was that Jaime was not directly quoting Brandon. He was paraphrasing what he'd been told Brandon said.

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Adam Yozza said:

Quote me where I said Jaime was lying.

I don't recall saying you did. I can point out he doesn't have a reason to lie without saying you said he did.

1 hour ago, Adam Yozza said:

I said he was likely not even there when it happened. Jaime learned all of this from a second hand source, because there is no way a man like Aerys is allowing Brandon to even enter the Throne Room, especially not armed. Even then, I don't dispute that Brandon's first response was to challenge Rhaegar nor that Brandon's impulsiveness was what got him killed. All I claimed was that Jaime was not directly quoting Brandon. He was paraphrasing what he'd been told Brandon said.

There is no reason to think he was elsewhere. in fact, we know Jaime was kept close to Aerys, so he being in the Red Keep when Brandon and company arrives is highly likely. That is true even if he wasn't in the actual courtyard when Brandon's party rides in. But we can't say whether or not Jaime was in the courtyard, guarding Aerys, or off duty at the moment they arrive. We just know Jaime reports what he likely thinks is true to Catelyn, regardless if it is his from first hand knowledge or from a report he hears from others. You have nothing that suggests one is more likely than the other. What we know is that Jaime's story is consistent with what we know of Brandon's behavior as pointed out by other sources. There is nothing to support the conclusion that Brandon didn't say just what Jaime says he did.

[Ygrain]

Even if Jaime's accoutn was secondhand, there were tons of people in the castle and Brandon's act would have been witnessed by many. Jaime would have heard enough versions to get the core message.

[Adam Yozza]

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Even if Jaime's accoutn was secondhand, there were tons of people in the castle and Brandon's act would have been witnessed by many. Jaime would have heard enough versions to get the core message.

That's my point. The core message. All I'm saying is "Come out and die" is likely not Brandon's exact words and Jaime is just relaying the gist or the core message of what he did say.

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Adam Yozza said:

That's my point. The core message. All I'm saying is "Come out and die" is likely not Brandon's exact words and Jaime is just relaying the gist or the core message of what he did say.

And my only disagreement with this is the word "likely." There is nothing at all wrong with pointing out that Jaime's words to Catelyn could come from someone else instead of him hearing Brandon's cry first hand. It's the step of saying it is likely without evidence to support it that's the problem.

Of the seven members of the Kingsguard, we know we can say that it is unlikely that two of them heard Brandon's challenge. Both Dayne and Whent were with Rhaegar, so it is highly likely that if - as Jaime tells us - that Rhaegar was not there, then neither of these two were there either. The other five, especially including Jaime, were, without a King's order or that of the Lord Commander to the contrary, likely to be with Aerys or in his vicinity - aka in the Red Keep. We do know that of the royal family other than Rhaegar only Elia and her children are known to be outside of the Red Keep at this time. Perhaps one of the Kingsguard, most likely her uncle, Prince Lewyn, could be on Dragonstone with her, but we don't know for sure. As such, we need more information to judge just how likely it is that Jaime was or was not a witness to Brandon's actual words.

All we know is that the words Jaime says Brandon said fit his past actions and the personality we are told by those closest to him. So, first hand account, or a second hand relay from another, it is likely the words Jaime tells to Catelyn are an accurate account of what Brandon said that day.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

the words Jaime says Brandon said fit his past actions and the personality we are told by those closest to him.

That's what I think, too. A polite, diplomatic phrasing is definitely not a Brandon thing.

[SFDanny]

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That's what I think, too. A polite, diplomatic phrasing is definitely not a Brandon thing.

No, it's not. Calling Rhaegar out for a duel to the death is much more like the Brandon we hear about.

I should have added Hoster Tully's remarks calling Brandon a "gallant fool" alongside the other remarks above illuminating Brandon's rash and violent character. All of one piece. No one speaks to the contrary about Brandon's character.