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Sandor and Tyrion


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19 minutes ago, Brandon Baratheon said:

they are from the same kingdom (House Clegane is the most loyal house to Lannisters)

So what? Do you personally like all the people from your country/town?

19 minutes ago, Brandon Baratheon said:

both are not physically attractive (so women disgust them)

And both hide behind their deformities, coping with them through despising the 'normal' people, not through seeking compassion. Of course, both are soft, tender, and cuddly deep down, but on the outside, they have developed a cynical persona, not very helpful in establishing friendly connections.

23 minutes ago, Brandon Baratheon said:

both hate hypocrisy

Too general and of dubious relevance.

From Sandor's point of view, Tyrion is a disgusting dwarf, who is even still alive just because he is a privileged brat. Plus, Tyrion is a smartass, and Joffrey (Sandor's 'owner') doesn't like him. Also, think about a typical high school athlete contempt to the nerds.

From Tyrion's point of view, Sandor is just a stupid brute, doing what he's told and calling himself a dog. Plus he's the closest thing Joffrey had to a friend.

Not too many reasons for them to like each other, it seems.

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Hrm....Sandor allowed Tyrion to slap the prince then the king, not to mention numerous threats while serving as Joff's personal guard dog.   Now I reckon The Hound could have easily taken Tyrion into custody if he really didn't like him.   Jaime's position stopping him perhaps?   I doubt it, Cersei and Tywin both outrank Jamie.    I think The Hound lived vicariously through Tyrion.   I know I sure did.  

Maybe "like" is the wrong word?   I think they tolerated each other well enough.   There is no reason for them to like each other being separated by stations in life.   Tyrion is noble.   Sandor is only an allegiant soldier. 

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I'm glad to see this brought up. It always mystified me why Sandor seemed to have such a strong aversion to Tyrion from the very beginning. Perhaps it bothers him to see another person "own" their abnormalities rather than hide behind them? (Although the argument could be made that the Hound does the same). I once saw someone theorize that the version of Tyrion's first marriage that Petyr presents in ASOS (where Tyrion got bored with Tysha and then made a gift of her to his guards for the hell of it) could have been a rumor that spread throughout the Red Keep and been why Sandor saw Tyrion as such a twisted little monster. That could explain why he thought Sansa would have been better off dead than married to Tyrion.

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My way of looking at it, the Sandor character doesn’t really like anyone. He does seem to become kinda sorta protective of the Stark girls though.

My interpretation is both Tyrion & Sandor are cynical.  Sandor works for the Lannister’s. The Imp has the protection of his name. Tyrion is knowledgeable of Sandor’s back story.

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion I     "A voice from nowhere," Sandor said. He peered through his helm, looking this way and that. "Spirits of the air!"The prince laughed, as he always laughed when his bodyguard did this mummer's farce. Tyrion was used to it. "Down here."

The Hound is Joffrey’s body guard, and he answers to Cersei not Joffrey.

Notice that in story during the Blackwater battle Tyrion sees Clegane's weakness.

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion XIII      Clegane took a swallow, spit it out, flung the cup away. "Water? Fuck your water. Bring me wine."      He is dead on his feet. Tyrion could see it now. The wound, the fire . . . he's done, I need to find someone else, but who?

Appears to me Tyrion and the Hound understand each other.

 

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I think before the battle of the Blackwater, they just dislike each other. I believe Tyrion dislikes Sandor because Sandor mocks hi and that usually makes Joffrey laugh.I am not sure why Sandor dislikes Tyrion at first though. Could be because Tyrion talks down to him or it could be for another extra reason that I don't know.

 

After the battle of the Blackwater, in which Sandor's phobia was the reason Sandor had to leave, Tyrion gathered his courage and went out and fought as bravely as he could. So with his act Tyrion pretty much humiliated Sandor in the worst way posible (though not on purpose). So I think after this event, Sandor came to detest Tyrion. After learning of his marriage to Sansa I think his feelings for Tyrion got even more negative. If you pay attention, while they're drinking with Gregor's men and getting info regarding what happened in KL, Sandor refers to Tyrion in all sorts of hateful ways. I think his hate for Tyrion is also apparent as he is included in his dying words.

 

So I think most of it is understandable and emotionally driven. Unless Sandor dislikes Tyrion for extra reasons that weren't revealed. (like say, if Sandor got the same tale Sansa did about Tyrion's first marriage, then Sandor's immense dislike Tyrion ever since book one makes incredible sense. As well as it turning to hate along with the rest of the things that happened in book two and three)

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A dog can smell a lie.

Tyrion is a bullshit artist.

And, of course, then there's Sansa:

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A Storm of Swords - Arya XIII

As still as stone she stood. "I . . . I was only . . ."

"Don't lie," he growled. "I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse. Go on, do it." When Arya did not move, he said, "I killed your butcher's boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after." He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. "And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf." A spasm of pain twisted his face. "Do you mean to make me beg, bitch? Do it! The gift of mercy . . . avenge your little Michael . . .

"Mycah." Arya stepped away from him. "You don't deserve the gift of mercy."

 

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17 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I'm glad to see this brought up. It always mystified me why Sandor seemed to have such a strong aversion to Tyrion from the very beginning. Perhaps it bothers him to see another person "own" their abnormalities rather than hide behind them? (Although the argument could be made that the Hound does the same). I once saw someone theorize that the version of Tyrion's first marriage that Petyr presents in ASOS (where Tyrion got bored with Tysha and then made a gift of her to his guards for the hell of it) could have been a rumor that spread throughout the Red Keep and been why Sandor saw Tyrion as such a twisted little monster. That could explain why he thought Sansa would have been better off dead than married to Tyrion.

Indeed, this is the explanation I read a time ago and got me convince despited the hints being very subtle.

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I think there is more to the reason that isn't said yet.  Actually, while their relationship isn't warm one in AGOT, I don't see it as totally antagonistic.  Like it was mentioned he stands by while Tyrion slaps Joffrey while giving him a good chewing out -- something Robert or Cersei would never do.  Robert couldn't be bothered to parent and Cersei would just indulge him.  Not that the Hound cares about Joffrey's rearing, but I think Tyrion gets to say things deep down the Hound would like to say and can't.  The Hound gets his digs in, but has to be so much subtler about it.   Here's what happens after that incident:

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A shadow fell across his face. He turned to find Clegane looming overhead like a cliff. His soot-dark armor seemed to blot out the sun. He had lowered the visor on his helm. It was fashioned in the likeness of a snarling black hound, fearsome to behold, but Tyrion had always thought it a great improvement over Clegane's hideously burned face.

"The prince will remember that, little lord," the Hound warned him. The helm turned his laugh into a hollow rumble.

"I pray he does," Tyrion Lannister replied. "If he forgets, be a good dog and remind him." He glanced around the courtyard. "Do you know where I might find my brother?"

"Breaking fast with the queen."

"Ah," Tyrion said. He gave Sandor Clegane a perfunctory nod and walked away as briskly as his stunted legs would carry him, whistling. He pitied the first knight to try the Hound today. The man did have a temper.

We won't pick up on this on first read, but in hindsight after we know some things about these two it's not a totally unfriendly exchange.  First off, the Hound is warning Tyrion that the prince is the one to watch out for, not him.  And the laughter doesn't necessary mean he's laughing because Tyrion will be retaliated against.  Perhaps he actually found what Tyrion said funny and deserved.  Tyrion certainly doesn't seem intimidated in the least.  And remember, the Hound does give a measure of respect for people that can look him directly in the face and speak to him without false courtesy.  Tyrion doesn't.  He calls him "little lord," which honestly doesn't sound very insulting when he could also be called Imp or monster or worse.  Tyrion calls the Hound "a good dog," which we find out later that he doesn't actually mind anyone calling him a dog, just not ser or lord.  Their exchange ends on a rather respectful note after asking him about Jaime and the Hound answers.  There's no hint of anything nasty bubbling under the surface.  He thinks about the Hound's temper, but it's not directed at him.  The Hound appears to be in a rather good mood, not in the least riled up about the exchange.  So I don't think things start off nearly as bad as we imagine in hindsight.

Then later after Sansa is discovered missing after escaping the riots:

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"They were traitors," Joffrey squealed from the ground. "They called me names and attacked me!"
"You set your dog on them! What did you imagine they would do, bend the knee meekly while the Hound lopped off some limbs? You spoiled witless little boy, you've killed Clegane and gods know how many more, and yet you come through unscratched. Damn you!" And he kicked him. It felt so good he might have done more, but Ser Mandon Moore pulled him off as Joffrey howled, and then Bronn was there to take him in hand. Cersei knelt over her son, while Ser Balon Swann restrained Ser Lancel. Tyrion wrenched free of Bronn's grip. "How many are still out there?" he shouted to no one and everyone.

 Again, I'm not saying their relationship is friendly, just that there may not be the dislike we imagine at this point.  Tyrion's criticism is not for the Hound lopping off limbs, but for Joffrey ordering him to do it.  While I won't argue he would mourn the Hound if he were killed, but even Tyrion can see that the Hound is a true asset to the Lannisters, one of the few loyal people in their service and Joffrey is reckless with his life and others.  He's mostly mad about what could happen to Sansa and that could equate to Jaime's death, but he does show that the Hound's life is valuable to them (as a weapon, not as a human being).  

From the Hound's side, there is definitely an ableist attitude toward Tyrion, but I don't think an intense dislike starts to form until later.  There's also the scene of Sansa's throne room beating where it's Tyrion that actually puts an end to it.  The Hound does shout "Enough!" but it's Tyrion that really stops Joffrey.  Still, I think in this situation he's more mad at himself.  In his dying regrets, he is angry at himself for standing there while Sansa is beaten, but doesn't mention Tyrion at that point.  

Things really start to change with the Blackwater and the wildfire.  Yes, the Hound is very anxious before the battle, contemplating his own mortality by possibly being burned to death.  If we read the play by play of the battle and considering this, the Hound actually fights quite bravely despite it for many hours leading sorties.  Eventually, he's exhausted and broken from seeing men burned to death.  

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"Open the gates. When they rush inside, surround them and kill them." The Hound thrust the point of his longsword into the ground and leaned upon the pommel, swaying. "I've lost half my men. Horse as well. I'm not taking more into that fire."
Ser Mandon Moore moved to Tyrion's side, immaculate in his enameled white plate. "The King's Hand commands you."
"Bugger the King's Hand." Where the Hound's face was not sticky with blood, it was pale as milk. "Someone bring me a drink." A gold cloak officer handed him a cup. Clegane took a swallow, spit it out, flung the cup away. "Water? Fuck your water. Bring me wine."

He is dead on his feet. Tyrion could see it now. The wound, the fire . . . he's done, I need to find someone else, but who? Ser Mandon? He looked at the men and knew it would not do. Clegane's fear had shaken them. Without a leader, they would refuse as well, and Ser Mandon . . . a dangerous man, Jaime said, yes, but not a man other men would follow.

Let's keep in mind for a second that the Hound is an actual veteran of many battles and Tyrion has experienced one.  The Hound is also a good leader of men which is why Tyrion chose him to lead sorties in the first place.  They've lost half their men and horses at that point.  What the Hound is suggesting is actually a pretty smart move that would reduce more casualties.  Basically feign giving up ground, move inside the gates, then envelope the enemy in a pincer move.  Tyrion's tactical knowledge is all theoretical, what he's been taught in formal education.  In his arrogance, inexperience, and short-sightedness, he's not even giving due consideration to this plan and as a result doing something very damaging to the Hound personally and professionally -- basically making him look like a craven in front of his men.  The Hound was not refusing to fight, he was refusing to fight in the wildfire and suggesting a perfectly good option that would spare more of their men.  Tyrion was angry at Joffrey for recklessly risking lives including the Hound's, but is not fully appreciating that he is doing the same.  Tyrion will suffer a pretty nasty wound and almost die soon after.  So later the Hound says to Sansa:

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"He's dead, they say."
"Dead? No. Bugger that. I don't want him dead." He cast the empty flagon aside. "I want him burned. If the gods are good, they'll burn him, but I won't be here to see. I'm going."

He doesn't want Tyrion dead, he wants him to experience getting burned.  Tyrion was pretty careless in laying a charge of cowardice at the Hound when he wasn't a coward.  Tyrion has no appreciation for being responsible for the lives of the men under you.  But the damage is done and it's serious.  He's humiliated in front of his men and there's no way he can recover his reputation.  

Now much later when it comes to finding out about Sansa's marriage to Tyrion:

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The Hound sat on the bench closest to the door. His mouth twitched, but only the burned side. "She ought to dip him in wildfire and cook him. Or tickle him till the moon turns black." He raised his wine cup and drained it straightaway.

I do think like a lot of people that the Tysha incident might have something to do with this.  He's clearly imagining a really terrible fate for Sansa.  This isn't jealousy.  He's not saying what he should do to Tyrion, but what Sansa should do to him to avenge herself.  This is actually a pretty big turn for the Hound, because he's not one to prolong death.  He's an efficient killer, his shoulder to breastbone strike is meant to kill in one blow and minimize prolonged dying.  This is the first time he really talks about someone deserving to be tortured to death, which means his hatred is really seething in that moment.  Yes he has a lot of anger at himself too for leaving her as he confesses before he dies, but I think he is imagining what he's heard about Tysha.  He'd be most likely hearing about it through Cersei, which would obviously be coloring the story in the worst way possible.  Sandor would have been about 15 or 16 at the time.  I'm thinking if Sandor believes Tyrion raped Tysha and had the soldiers do the same, then he wasn't actually there to see that Tywin actually forced 13 year old Tyrion to rape her (which makes it also Tyrion's rape).  Sansa being about the same age would have no doubt caused him to believe the worst had happened to her.  

So the Hound may have had a somewhat cordial relationship with Tyrion in AGOT and it probably really only started becoming outright hostile until it hit him personally, as a battle commander and when it involved someone he cared about.          

 

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I actually asked George RR this question a few years ago, and he seemed bored by it. His reply (which I wish I could remember in some detail) was brief, something about years of a routinely abrasive relationship; no big deal.

I think there's something of mutual envy in Tyrion and Sandor's mutual enmity. They're both unloved by women due to their deformities/scars, but Tyrion has the prestige, position, and wealth of the Lannisters, so he's respected in spite of his appearance. Sandor has the prowess of being one of the best fighters in Westeros, which Tyrion can never match, plus he's really big. While Tyrion seems one of the least snobbish of the Lannisters, he constantly denigrates Sandor as just another dog - probably because of Sandor's allegiance to his hated sister, Cersei. So the two of them never actually talk, where the things they have in common might come out and lead to some friendlier feelings.

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think they tolerated each other well enough.   There is no reason for them to like each other being separated by stations in life.   Tyrion is noble.   Sandor is only an allegiant soldier. 

I think this is just about right. But Sandor is also noble born - but he's second generation, whereas the Lannisters go WAY back to the legendary "Lann the Clever" (con man and thief.)

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10 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

So the Hound may have had a somewhat cordial relationship with Tyrion in AGOT and it probably really only started becoming outright hostile until it hit him personally, as a battle commander and when it involved someone he cared about.          

This whole thing is a great analysis, and thanks, Blue-Eyed Wolf!

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18 minutes ago, zandru said:

This whole thing is a great analysis, and thanks, Blue-Eyed Wolf!

:D  Thanks!

26 minutes ago, zandru said:

I actually asked George RR this question a few years ago, and he seemed bored by it. His reply (which I wish I could remember in some detail) was brief, something about years of a routinely abrasive relationship; no big deal.

I think there's something of mutual envy in Tyrion and Sandor's mutual enmity. They're both unloved by women due to their deformities/scars, but Tyrion has the prestige, position, and wealth of the Lannisters, so he's respected in spite of his appearance. Sandor has the prowess of being one of the best fighters in Westeros, which Tyrion can never match, plus he's really big. While Tyrion seems one of the least snobbish of the Lannisters, he constantly denigrates Sandor as just another dog - probably because of Sandor's allegiance to his hated sister, Cersei. So the two of them never actually talk, where the things they have in common might come out and lead to some friendlier feelings.

I would imagine he does get asked that questions quite often.  I have a feeling it we'll get a clearer picture on it in the coming books.  There's no doubt Sandor has some pretty ableist views, which are quite common in a patriarchal culture that has very narrow views on how masculinity is expressed.  Part of his posturing and particularly callous statements are an overcompensation for his deep seeded fear of vulnerability and helplessness.  The last time he was vulnerable he had his face held to a fire.  Disability equates to helplessness and he'd rather be dead than go through that again.  It's a terrible attitude to have that disabled lives aren't worth living, but at least we have an idea of where it comes from. There's no way Tyrion as a disabled person can perform masculinity like that and society doesn't make accommodations in that regard.  Still, I will give Tyrion that he does deserve recognition for fighting along side his men and finds he can wield an ax.  Whether or not that's accurate for someone with dwarfism I have no idea and that's totally on the author.  

I understand that Tyrion's neediness for recognition comes from his life of severe abuse from his family.  I don't really think of him that harshly for the arrogance he displays as an overcompensation for how his abuse has affected him.  Tyrion certainly has power and privilege of his name, but that certainly doesn't protect him from abuse from Cersei or Tywin.  The Hound isn't one to really care about gold or titles, so I don't think there's an envy in that regard.  Like I said, I don't think the outright animosity starts until it really affects him personally and professionally.  

What they do have in common is that they both look to Sansa to give them assurances and affirmations, which actually places Sansa in more of the adult position to either of them.  The night of the Blackwater, Sandor accuses Sansa of being afraid of everything, but he's the one who is falling apart and looking for affirmation that he is brave and strong.  He's been accused of being craven, he left the battle, and he's having a PTSD meltdown.  The wedding night, Tyrion thinks of Sansa as the child and tries to assure her he could be the Knight of Flowers in the Dark, but she looks at him and sees his neediness for female acceptance and desire.  He doesn't have any emotional connection to Sansa nor she to him, yet he wants her to attend to him emotionally.  He does have deep wounds in regards to relationships with women.  Both of them are grown men dumping their shit on a 12 year old political prisoner and abuse victim, which is so inappropriate.  In both scenes, Sansa is the one being more mature despite her own fears and vulnerability.

I don't think Tyrion or Sandor would ever hash things out on page or reconcile.  There was no friendship to begin with that either of them would seek to recover.  I think it's enough that the reader can see where they might actually have a few areas where they have vulnerabilities in common, which ironically contributes to the hostility later.  

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20 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Notice that in story during the Blackwater battle Tyrion sees Clegane's weakness.

Sees his weakness but does not comprehend why until he is in the thick of barrel and experiences the furnace for himself.

15 hours ago, Lifestream said:

So with his act Tyrion pretty much humiliated Sandor in the worst way posible (though not on purpose).

Actually it is done on purpouse 

"If he thought that would shame the Hound back to valor, he was wrong. Clegane only laughed. “You?”......

Only a handful had responded to his command, no more than twenty. They sat their horses with eyes as white as the Hound’s. He looked contemptuously at the others, the knights and sellswords who had ridden with Clegane. “They say I’m half a man,” he said. “What does that make the lot of you?” That shamed them well enough. A knight mounted, helmetless, and rode to join the others. A pair of sellswords followed. Then more. The King’s Gate shuddered again. In a few moments the size of Tyrion’s command had doubled. He had them trapped. If I fight, they must do the same, or they are less than dwarfs."

 

So done deliberately but out of need not spite and without understanding.  If Tyrion knew what Sandor had gone through to survive 3 sorties he might have had the wisdom to give him an order to return to Joff on some pretext and keep his honour.

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40 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Sees his weakness but does not comprehend why until he is in the thick of barrel and experiences the furnace for himself.

I'm wondering if maybe I did not articulate my thoughts well enough in my post. The Sandor character in my opinion doesn't seem to like much of anyone. He and Tyrion get on well enough as was articulated by Blue-Eyed Wolf.

3 hours ago, zandru said:

But Sandor is also noble born - but he's second generation,

I make mistakes frequently; leave out a word or two.  Sandor is not noble born.

A Clash of Kings - Sansa II     "Why do you let people call you a dog? You won't let anyone call you a knight."      "I like dogs better than knights. My father's father was kennelmaster at the Rock. One autumn year, Lord Tytos came between a lioness and her prey. The lioness didn't give a shit that she was Lannister's own sigil. Bitch tore into my lord's horse and would have done for my lord too, but my grandfather came up with the hounds. Three of his dogs died running her off. My grandfather lost a leg, so Lannister paid him for it with lands and a towerhouse, and took his son to squire.

22 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I once saw someone theorize that the version of Tyrion's first marriage that Petyr presents in ASOS (where Tyrion got bored with Tysha and then made a gift of her to his guards for the hell of it) could have been a rumor that spread throughout the Red Keep and been why Sandor saw Tyrion as such a twisted little monster.

While I can agree this can be a good explanation I have to consider the context in which it is said and that the source is LF.

LF says it after Joffrey’s death; Sansa has fled KL with the help of Dontos (LF’s lackey) and she is aboard LF’s ship.

Yes, it could have been a rumor floating around CR or KL. OR it could be LF feeding Sansa some bs.

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI    "He did not kill Joffrey, true, but the dwarf's hands are far from clean. He had a wife before you, did you know that?"    "He told me."    "And did he tell you that when he grew bored with her, he made a gift of her to his father's guardsmen? He might have done the same to you, in time. Shed no tears for the Imp, my lady."

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I don't think they ever got on that well.

Tyrion can't resist making Joffrey and Cersei very angry, and that makes life hard for the family dog.

And then Sandor tries to make Joffrey laugh with his Tyrion's-too-small-too-see act - and that's a joke that gets old very quickly, particularly with someone who hates insults as much as Tyrion.

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22 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Personally, I don't see the Hound or Tyrion treating each other any differently than they treat anyone else:

Tyrion: a snarky little wise-ass

Sandor: pissed off and hostile

:idea: lol, Sandor and Tyrion have a bromance.

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