Sandor and Tyrion

[Lifestream]

On 27/6/2017 at 1:14 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

You may be right. I was thinking about him mocking Ned's death to Sansa during ACOK, but I guess that could just be the usual defense mechanism/goading that he does when he's drunk and angry.

Sorry if I'm a bit late and you might have resolved this, but I'd like to correct the person quoted. Sandor doesn't regret standing there in his white cloak seeing Ned executed. He regerts standing there in his white cloak and seeing Sansa getting beaten for no reason.

 

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"Don't lie," he growled. "I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse. Go on, do it." When Arya did not move, he said, "I killed your butcher's boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after." He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. "And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf." A spasm of pain twisted his face. "Do you mean to make me beg, bitch? Do it! The gift of mercy . . . avenge your little Michael . . . "

Chapter 74

 

As for mocking Ned's death to Sansa, i think there's many things at play here. Their encounter starts with Sandor giving Sansa support, who is weakened by the pain she feels in her stomach (and later she gets her period while sleeping)

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Turning back to the stair, Sansa climbed. The smoke blotted out the stars and the thin crescent of moon, so the roof was dark and thick with shadows. Yet from here she could see everything: the Red Keep's tall towers and great cornerforts, the maze of city streets beyond, to south and west the river running black, the bay to the east, the columns of smoke and cinders, and fires, fires everywhere. Soldiers crawled over the city walls like ants with torches, and crowded the hoardings that had sprouted from the ramparts. Down by the Mud Gate, outlined against the drifting smoke, she could make out the vague shape of the three huge catapults, the biggest anyone had ever seen, overtopping the walls by a good twenty feet. Yet none of it made her feel less fearful. A stab went through her, so sharp that Sansa sobbed and clutched at her belly. She might have fallen, but a shadow moved suddenly, and strong fingers grabbed her arm and steadied her.

 

She grabbed a merlon for support, her fingers scrabbling at the rough stone. "Let go of me," she cried. "Let go."

 

"The little bird thinks she has wings, does she? Or do you mean to end up crippled like that brother of yours?"

 

Sansa twisted in his grasp. "I wasn't going to fall. It was only . . . you startled me, that's all."

 

"You mean I scared you. And still do."

 

She took a deep breath to calm herself. "I thought I was alone, I . . . " She glanced away.

 

"The little bird still can't bear to look at me, can she?" The Hound released her. "You were glad enough to see my face when the mob had you, though. Remember?"

This is, i think, the first encounter Sandor and Sansa have after the riots and him saving her. Sansa has not tanked him yet. But look at how wrong it starts off. Sandor totally misunderstands Sansa. He thinks she can't bear to look at him and that makes him angry. Especially given that he saved her. look at the last bolded sentence it's pretty obvious he is bothered by her perceived actions.

But the truth is Sansa isn't quite that repulsed by Sandor's face, more his brash nature. but Sandor many times jumps to the conclusion that Sansa can't bear to look at him.

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She made herself look at that face now, really look. It was only courteous, and a lady must never forget her courtesies. The scars are not the worst part, nor even the way his mouth twitches. It's his eyes. She had never seen eyes so full of anger. "I . . . I should have come to you after," she said haltingly. "To thank you, for . . . for saving me . . . you were so brave."

 

"Brave?" His laugh was half a snarl. "A dog doesn't need courage to chase off rats. They had me thirty to one, and not a man of them dared face me."

That's Sansa's real opinion, she no longer finds Sandor's scars as repulsing or scary as she once did and over time she gets even more used to them. Sandor though, keeps translating her actions as a rejection of him BECAUSE of his scars because he himself has not come to terms with them. It does appear like he has accepted his fate and he proudly wears them, but his interactions with Sansa point out the opposite. Sandor is still very much insecure but at the same time he does want her to look at him the way he is and then he's very very quick to project his insecurities to Sansa. It's kind of weird really.

And it's very funny how he reacts, instead of accepting Sansa's words as truthful and her apology as sincere he undermines his actions, when just a few paragraphs ago he was all like "You don't like my face but you were happy that I saved you". It's like he's looking for recognition and acknowledgement but when he does receive it he doesn't know what to do with it.

 

And Sansa does stare at him straight on. What happens then?

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She hated the way he talked, always so harsh and angry. "Does it give you joy to scare people?"

 

"No, it gives me joy to kill people." His mouth twitched. "Wrinkle up your face all you like, but spare me this false piety. You were a high lord's get. Don't tell me Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell never killed a man."

 

"That was his duty. He never liked it."

 

"Is that what he told you?" Clegane laughed again. "Your father lied. Killing is the sweetest thing there is." He drew his longsword. "Here's your truth. Your precious father found that out on Baelor's steps. Lord of Winterfell, Hand of the King, Warden of the North, the mighty Eddard Stark, of a line eight thousand years old . . . but Ilyn Payne's blade went through his neck all the same, didn't it? Do you remember the dance he did when his head came off his shoulders?"

I think what Sansa asks here is a question that strikes a cord in Sandor. I mean, she didn't ask him if he enjoys killing people and they were not exactly talking about killings and the joys of it. They were talking about her rescue. It seems to me that Sandor is indeed trying to scare off Sansa here, I've always seen it as a defense mechanism from the first time I read that part. if anything, Sandor seems to be lying to himself here rather than Sansa and the fact that he becomes so hurtful as to use her father's death against her leads me to believe that he's out of his depth all throughout the conversation and again it's a defense mechanism.

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Sansa hugged herself, suddenly cold. "Why are you always so hateful? I was thanking you . . . "

 

"Just as if I was one of those true knights you love so well, yes. What do you think a knight is for, girl? You think it's all taking favors from ladies and looking fine in gold plate? Knights are for killing." He laid the edge of his longsword against her neck, just under her ear. Sansa could feel the sharpness of the steel. "I killed my first man at twelve. I've lost count of how many I've killed since then. High lords with old names, fat rich men dressed in velvet, knights puffed up like bladders with their honors, yes, and women and children too—they're all meat, and I'm the butcher. Let them have their lands and their gods and their gold. Let them have their sers." Sandor Clegane spat at her feet to show what he thought of that. "So long as I have this," he said, lifting the sword from her throat, "there's no man on earth I need fear."

This is also interesting. Like I said before, Sandor HIMSELF mentions the fact that he rescued her in the riots hinting that he does wanted that to be acknowledge, but now that Sansa confronts him on his weird behavior he responds on what he thinks of knights and separates himself from them. Just all of this is super weird, especially given his dying words and mention of the white cloak. i think Sandor is trying to convince himself here that knighthood isn't something that entices him.

 

Then they turn the attention to the upcoming battle and what Sandor expects out of it. Sansa asks him if he's afraid of hell and he tells her of his opinion about gods.

Then Sansa mentions of knights, tru knights this time, again.

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"True knights protect the weak."

 

He snorted. "There are no true knights, no more than there are gods. If you can't protect yourself, die and get out of the way of those who can. Sharp steel and strong arms rule this world, don't ever believe any different."

 

Sansa backed away from him. "You're awful."

 

"I'm honest. It's the world that's awful. Now fly away, little bird, I'm sick of you peeping at me."

It's really significant to notice how the scene ends. I don't think there's ever been anything like it. Sandor dismisses Sansa and expresses annoyance over her looking at him, something he always asks her to do. And when she does and he realizes it, it seems he can't handle it. I don't know if you'll agree, but Sandor becomes very cruel during this conversation because Sansa brings out very meaningful questions to Sandor's real identity, sensitivities and aspirations he may have had and may have acquired again (temporarily) when he was traveling with Arya. Those questions are ones that Sandor avoids answering sincerely, and when Sansa does confront him, he doesn't seem comfortable answering them, so he lashes out.

 

It's another instance of vulnerability for Sandor but this time he's completely sober (from what it seems), while other times he's under the influence of alcohol and/or fatigue and mental exhaustion (during the battle of the Blackwater)

 

I hope you don't mind that i went to such lengths with this reply.

[The Bard of Banefort]

6 minutes ago, Lifestream said:

Sorry if I'm a bit late and you might have resolved this, but I'd like to correct the person quoted. Sandor doesn't regret standing there in his white cloak seeing Ned executed. He regerts standing there in his white cloak and seeing Sansa getting beaten for no reason.

 

 

As for mocking Ned's death to Sansa, i think there's many things at play here. Their encounter starts with Sandor giving Sansa support, who is weakened by the pain she feels in her stomach (and later she gets her period while sleeping)

This is, i think, the first encounter Sandor and Sansa have after the riots and him saving her. Sansa has not tanked him yet. But look at how wrong it starts off. Sandor totally misunderstands Sansa. He thinks she can't bear to look at him and that makes him angry. Especially given that he saved her. look at the last bolded sentence it's pretty obvious he is bothered by her perceived actions.

But the truth is Sansa isn't quite that repulsed by Sandor's face, more his brash nature. but Sandor many times jumps to the conclusion that Sansa can't bear to look at him.

That's Sansa's real opinion, she no longer finds Sandor's scars as repulsing or scary as she once did and over time she gets even more used to them. Sandor though, keeps translating her actions as a rejection of him BECAUSE of his scars because he himself has not come to terms with them. It does appear like he has accepted his fate and he proudly wears them, but his interactions with Sansa point out the opposite. Sandor is still very much insecure but at the same time he does want her to look at him the way he is and then he's very very quick to project his insecurities to Sansa. It's kind of weird really.

And it's very funny how he reacts, instead of accepting Sansa's words as truthful and her apology as sincere he undermines his actions, when just a few paragraphs ago he was all like "You don't like my face but you were happy that I saved you". It's like he's looking for recognition and acknowledgement but when he does receive it he doesn't know what to do with it.

 

And Sansa does stare at him straight on. What happens then?

I think what Sansa asks here is a question that strikes a cord in Sandor. I mean, she didn't ask him if he enjoys killing people and they were not exactly talking about killings and the joys of it. They were talking about her rescue. It seems to me that Sandor is indeed trying to scare off Sansa here, I've always seen it as a defense mechanism from the first time I read that part. if anything, Sandor seems to be lying to himself here rather than Sansa and the fact that he becomes so hurtful as to use her father's death against her leads me to believe that he's out of his depth all throughout the conversation and again it's a defense mechanism.

This is also interesting. Like I said before, Sandor HIMSELF mentions the fact that he rescued her in the riots hinting that he does wanted that to be acknowledge, but now that Sansa confronts him on his weird behavior he responds on what he thinks of knights and separates himself from them. Just all of this is super weird, especially given his dying words and mention of the white cloak. i think Sandor is trying to convince himself here that knighthood isn't something that entices him.

 

Then they turn the attention to the upcoming battle and what Sandor expects out of it. Sansa asks him if he's afraid of hell and he tells her of his opinion about gods.

Then Sansa mentions of knights, tru knights this time, again.

It's really significant to notice how the scene ends. I don't think there's ever been anything like it. Sandor dismisses Sansa and expresses annoyance over her looking at him, something he always asks her to do. And when she does and he realizes it, it seems he can't handle it. I don't know if you'll agree, but Sandor becomes very cruel during this conversation because Sansa brings out very meaningful questions to Sandor's real identity, sensitivities and aspirations he may have had and may have acquired again (temporarily) when he was traveling with Arya. Those questions are ones that Sandor avoids answering sincerely, and when Sansa does confront him, he doesn't seem comfortable answering them, so he lashes out.

 

It's another instance of vulnerability for Sandor but this time he's completely sober (from what it seems), while other times he's under the influence of alcohol and/or fatigue and mental exhaustion (during the battle of the Blackwater)

 

I hope you don't mind that i went to such lengths with this reply.

Great analysis. I agree that Sandor relies on various defense mechanisms, and I think the fact that he's grown to care for Sansa is something that frightens him. Up until now, he'd been able to convince himself that he was beyond caring about anyone, and he's trying desperately to hold on to that by acting as cruel and cold with Sansa as possible, partly to try to dilute his own feeling and partly out of frustration for feeling this way in the first place. Of course, on an unconscious level, this doesn't work. He's always checking up on her (the mob, the Blackwater, when she runs off to the godswood), he keeps bringing her up to Arya, and I'd even argue that his desire to go North is influenced by Sansa as well. Sandor is very much drawn to Sansa, and that is the source of a lot of internal conflict with him. It will be really fascinating to see how his tenure on the Quiet Isle affects him, and what his next meeting with Sansa will be like because of it (I'm in the camp that they will meet again).

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

35 minutes ago, Lifestream said:

I'm sure that their history also contributed to Tyrion brushing off Sandor's suggestions. Unfortunately, Tyrion is the one who commands here and has more power than the Hound and no one really mistrusts his judgement. Heck even Cersei doesn't doubt that Tyrion is trying his best and has not left Sandor with any specific commands of her own.

Yes of course the Hound's ableist cracks at him didn't really help to the warm the relationship.  Before the battle they more or less had a cordial at best relationship.  No reason to be friends.  He's the Queen's man after all.  I don't feel it started to turn really hostile until the events of the battle.  Yes, Tyrion is the Hand, but most importantly he is a Lannister.  They will go full Rains of Castamere on you for defiance or failure.  Tywin certainly laid down that reputation long ago.  So even if they aren't motivated by Tyrion's leadership, they probably fear Lannister retribution more than the battle itself.  So that's one way to get your troops to obey your orders.  And no, Cersei doesn't doubt Tyrion is fighting for their side to win.  The only time she questions anything is when it's in regards to Joffrey being anywhere remotely near danger.  She would rather him be inside Maegor's, but even Lancel "go fetch the breastplate stretcher" Lannister knows that Joffrey needs to be seen among the troops.  

53 minutes ago, Lifestream said:

Honestly, I think for Tyrion all of this, initially, is a blessing in disguise. Prior to the battle, was trying to find ways to distance Sandor from Joffrey hoping he might be easier to manipulate and control.

Well, I do think he sees him first and foremost as the Queen's man.  This is post stripping and beating Sansa, where Tyrion assumes he can distract Joffrey with a prostitute.  He needed to do that when the Hound was off duty and away.  This is also just as deluded as Cersei thinking she can control Joffrey.  He's getting older and is wielding absolute power.  Joffrey can sometimes be steered with giving him flattery or distraction, but that's not working anymore.  He's quickly getting to a point where he feels free and empowered to indulge every sadistic idea that occurs to him.  That's the thing.  Tyrion thinks a prostitute can entertain him and that will be enough.  We both know that unfortunate girl would very quickly be tortured, because Joffrey doesn't want to just see tits.  He enjoys making women suffer.  He's a true sadist.  

1 hour ago, Lifestream said:

plans of getting to Joffrey, but at the same time his long-term plans don't involve make use of Sandor as an asset (again as far as I recall). So given that I am not surprised as to why he doesn't take Sandor's suggestion into consideration. So in my eyes, Tyrion seems to view Sandor more, brawn over brains, kind of like how Gregor is. I think many people don't give Sandor credit for his reasoning ability. And unfortunately, I don't think anyone quite viewed Sandor as a human with feelings, so expecting Tyrion to consider his future sounds a bit outlandish. Let alone in a situation like this.

And certainly the Hound has allowed himself to be thought of in many ways as a loyal obedient dog.  Being so implicitly trusted has gained him a lot of privileges and latitude when it comes to his refusal to swear vows.  That's usually a must for kingsguards, but for him they make the exception.  It occurs to no one that the Hound would ever leave their service.  He is essentially a royal family insider and a fly on the wall.  They definitely do make a distinction between the Hound and the Mountain as the Mountain would never be allowed near the royal children.  He's much too volatile.  I agree that the Hound is actually even more intelligent than he lets on.  There's a lot to be said for keeping your cards close to your chest, especially at court.  If he's underestimated, it's mostly intentionally so.  I don't expect Tyrion to "consider his feelings."  I would expect him to consider the ramifications of pissing off and ruining the career of one of your best and most loyal commanders.  The Lannisters are carelessly losing loyal and highly qualified people in their service with short-sighted decisions.  I'm saying Tyrion is making the same mistake he criticized Joffrey for.  

1 hour ago, Lifestream said:

Again not saying Tyrion was out to target the Hound specifically and I don't believe his decision to ride out in the battle and shame everyone to fighting was personal, but one has to admit that Tyrion might have been biased against the Hound since he didn't seriously consider his suggestion when from an objective point of view Sandor has a lot to offer.

 

Now if Sandor was still around, Tyrion might not have been framed for Joffrey's murder.

I don't believe he was targeting the Hound either to make some sort of example, but it was definitely short-sighted.  He didn't see it at the time for the big deal that it was.  Sandor certainly was never friendly to Tyrion which does encourage a bias, but Tyrion is not a military man and he should not have presumed to know best especially when there was good objective reason to re-think the strategy.  If in Tyrion's mind his only objective is to win, it shouldn't matter whose strategy they are using if it's a sound one.  It is in Tyrion's personality this need to prove he's the smartest guy in the room, whether he's right or wrong.  He does have an intense neediness to be recognized that overshadows many of his decisions.  That can lead to undervaluing other people's experience or knowledge and overvaluing his own.  That's why I think it's so appropriate that George wrote the outcome of the battle as Tyrion actually losing so much of what he personally values.  He got zero recognition, worse his nephew and father claimed all the credit, he was made even uglier and almost died, he lost his precious position as Hand, and the Hound abandoned them after Tyrion pushed him too far.  

I completely agree with that last line.  Losing the Hound, the one competent Kingsguard in KL, had huge ramifications.  I do believe the plot to kill Joffrey wouldn't have happened because the Hound is actually a very observant guy.  The irony is that he replaced Barristan Selmy and people think the KG has sunk to it's lowest.  Not in the least.  I think he would have been actually doing his job at the wedding and watching everything.  The KG really sinks to its lowest after they lose the Hound.  Tyrion or Sansa would probably never have been framed either.  

1 hour ago, Lifestream said:

Do you think so as well? He sounds as if at some in the past he had the opportunity to do so but he didn't and now he regrets it

I still don't quite think Sandor became really overtly hostile to Tyrion until it started to affect him personally.  There's still a lot we don't know, but I suspect in this context it was speaking out of anger because I really don't know what in the past Tyrion could have done to him personally to make him wish him dead long ago.  Now when the Hound finds out later about Tyrion marrying Sansa, his reaction is visceral. I suspect that Sandor imagines the worst happening to Sansa because of the Tysha incident.  He wishes Sansa to torture him to death and he's never been one to draw out killing or to torture anyone.  That was pretty exceptional.  Even at the blackwater he says he wishes Tyrion were burned, not killed, expressing a wish that Tyrion should know how it feels to be burned.  That line is a curiosity then.  Unless it was just spoken in anger, I can't imagine what Tyrion did that would make Sandor wish he had killed him years ago.    

                  

        

[Lifestream]

12 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Great analysis. I agree that Sandor relies on various defense mechanisms, and I think the fact that he's grown to care for Sansa is something that frightens him. Up until now, he'd been able to convince himself that he was beyond caring about anyone, and he's trying desperately to hold on to that by acting as cruel and cold with Sansa as possible, partly to try to dilute his own feeling and partly out of frustration for feeling this way in the first place. Of course, on an unconscious level, this doesn't work. He's always checking up on her (the mob, the Blackwater, when she runs off to the godswood), he keeps bringing her up to Arya, and I'd even argue that his desire to go North is influenced by Sansa as well. Sandor is very much drawn to Sansa, and that is the source of a lot of internal conflict with him. It will be really fascinating to see how his tenure on the Quiet Isle affects him, and what his next meeting with Sansa will be like because of it (I'm in the camp that they will meet again).

Hehe, I want to meet them again and keep trying to find hints or foreshadowing that it will happen. I'd like to think that they'll reunite.

I think he was more alarmed during his interactions with Sansa. When he's with Arya, he seems to have accepted it and it's very interesting how differently he talks about Sansa.

I wonder if he cared one little bit about Joffrey, considering how much time they spent together. I know unpopular opinion, but I always felt like the dog who goes up to sniff Joffrey's corpse was supposed to symbolize Sandor and it's not some insignificant scene. I also find it telling that Sansa wonders what Sandor feels like that Joffrey is dead.

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Sansa went down the steps and out into the night. A light rain was falling on the remains of the feast, but the air smelled fresh and clean. The memory of her own wedding night with Tyrion was much with her. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers, he had said. I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie. A dog can smell a lie, you know, the Hound had told her once. She could almost hear the rough rasp of his voice. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They're all liars here, and every one better than you. She wondered what had become of Sandor Clegane. Did he know that they'd killed Joffrey? Would he care? He had been the prince's sworn shield for years.

So I've been thinking that perhaps, whether Sandor cared to a point about Joffrey or not, is ambiguous and not a hard "no". If Sansa's been spending time around both of them, why wouldn't she be more certain that the Hound would in no way in hell care about him? And from Cersei's POV we do know that Joffrey might, at some point, have looked up to the Hound. I can understand why no one wants to consider this or would not take my suggestion seriously considering Joffrey's nature, but I feel if it was true it wouldn't retract from Sandor in any way. It'd be completely understandable to me as Joffrey did show a sort of fondness for him. I'd like to hear your view on this.

 

It's really funny how both Sansa and Sandor are under cover right now, having taken different identities. What a coincidence, totally unintended (sarcasm). Another interesting thing is that the Hound has somehow re-united with Lady Stoneheart/ex-Catelyn. Maybe there's some sort of symbolism here, a sign? Foreshadowing? one can only hope.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

@Lifestream Great analysis on the pre-blackwater interaction with Sansa.  I think Sandor says some of his meanest lines to Sansa and he does some really over the top posturing with the sword at her neck because this is just before the battle.  He is completely sober here and he was already on the battlements before Sansa arrived.  What he was doing up there was dealing with pre-battle anxiety.  He knows he's going to be on the front lines.  He knows he's facing the wildfire.  He's very on edge and contemplating his own mortality by possibly burning to death.  This is completely normal for a soldier to have anxiety before battle, but compound that with the threat of wildfire.  I think that explains a lot as to why he was so harsh to Sansa.  

Even Sansa does acknowledge she should have gone to him earlier to thank him.  With the cut on his arm, there was reason to believe he wasn't wearing full plate during the riot.  The danger of them both getting swarmed and killed was very real.  I believe you are absolutely right that he won't admit it, but he really did want Sansa to thank him properly.  It was probably a moment he regarded as his finest hour where he got to do something truly heroic for someone he cared about.  He does later misrepresent this moment to Arya when he claims Sansa sang him a song after he saved her from the riot.  He clearly romanticizes it and re-wrote the telling of it.  A part of me says Sansa didn't rush to thank him because he wasn't the ideal shining knight.  I don't think she would have hesitated had it been Loras that saved her.  So yeah, she does admit it was weak to thank him days later after just bumping into him, not even seeking him out.  And when she does thank him it was super formal wall of courtesy thank you.  I think she realizes how grateful she actually is upon reflection when she has her nightmare of the riot and no one comes to save her.  I also think she realizes how cold and detached the courtesy treatment can feel when you're on the receiving end of it in her encounter with Loras Tyrell on her way to meeting Olenna and Margaery.  She tries to converse with Loras and makes attempts at meaningful conversation, but it ends up putting him off her and he treats her with polite and cool detachment.  It's a good lesson in real chemistry between people and that despite all his faults, what the Hound actually wants is to be real with her and she with him.  

I completely agree with your assessment of the HOund and some of his unfairly drawn conclusions.  She really does look at him and comes to a genuine conclusion that it's his anger that she doesn't like.  She's not rejecting him, but his worst flaw.  Once he realizes she is really looking at him and seeing him truly, he can't handle it.  The double edged sword of intimacy is that you have to be vulnerable with another person and he hates feeling vulnerable.  It's such a great dynamic of two very flawed people hitting walls but also breaking through them.    

[The Bard of Banefort]

4 minutes ago, Lifestream said:

Hehe, I want to meet them again and keep trying to find hints or foreshadowing that it will happen. I'd like to think that they'll reunite.

I think he was more alarmed during his interactions with Sansa. When he's with Arya, he seems to have accepted it and it's very interesting how differently he talks about Sansa.

I wonder if he cared one little bit about Joffrey, considering how much time they spent together. I know unpopular opinion, but I always felt like the dog who goes up to sniff Joffrey's corpse was supposed to symbolize Sandor and it's not some insignificant scene. I also find it telling that Sansa wonders what Sandor feels like that Joffrey is dead.

So I've been thinking that perhaps, whether Sandor cared to a point about Joffrey or not, is ambiguous and not a hard "no". If Sansa's been spending time around both of them, why wouldn't she be more certain that the Hound would in no way in hell care about him? And from Cersei's POV we do know that Joffrey might, at some point, have looked up to the Hound. I can understand why no one wants to consider this or would not take my suggestion seriously considering Joffrey's nature, but I feel if it was true it wouldn't retract from Sandor in any way. It'd be completely understandable to me as Joffrey did show a sort of fondness for him. I'd like to hear your view on this.

 

It's really funny how both Sansa and Sandor are under cover right now, having taken different identities. What a coincidence, totally unintended (sarcasm). Another interesting thing is that the Hound has somehow re-united with Lady Stoneheart/ex-Catelyn. Maybe there's some sort of symbolism here, a sign? Foreshadowing? one can only hope.

Yeah, I'm not sure. He never has a "fuck the king" moment like in the show, so he may not have hated Joffrey after all. Then again, it's because of Joffrey that Sansa was constantly beaten and humiliated, so I doubt he had much sympathy for the kid.

I remember someone asking if the Hound and Sansa would ever meet again, and George replied that the Hound was dead and Sansa might be gone. So yes, I would definitely say the parallel is intentional :-) 

[The Bard of Banefort]

4 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 

Even Sansa does acknowledge she should have gone to him earlier to thank him.  With the cut on his arm, there was reason to believe he wasn't wearing full plate during the riot.  The danger of them both getting swarmed and killed was very real.  I believe you are absolutely right that he won't admit it, but he really did want Sansa to thank him properly.  It was probably a moment he regarded as his finest hour where he got to do something truly heroic for someone he cared about.  He does later misrepresent this moment to Arya when he claims Sansa sang him a song after he saved her from the riot.  He clearly romanticizes it and re-wrote the telling of it.  A part of me says Sansa didn't rush to thank him because he wasn't the ideal shining knight.  I don't think she would have hesitated had it been Loras that saved her.  So yeah, she does admit it was weak to thank him days later after just bumping into him, not even seeking him out.  And when she does thank him it was super formal wall of courtesy thank you.  I think she realizes how grateful she actually is upon reflection when she has her nightmare of the riot and no one comes to save her.  I also think she realizes how cold and detached the courtesy treatment can feel when you're on the receiving end of it in her encounter with Loras Tyrell on her way to meeting Olenna and Margaery.  She tries to converse with Loras and makes attempts at meaningful conversation, but it ends up putting him off her and he treats her with polite and cool detachment.  It's a good lesson in real chemistry between people and that despite all his faults, what the Hound actually wants is to be real with her and she with him.  

 

That's definitely a possibility, although I think her main reason for not thanking Sandor properly was because of fear. The memory of the mob itself is frightening to Sansa, but at this point Sandor does still genuinely scare her. It isn't until after the Blackwater that we see her fear of him start to subside (which is an interesting parallel since, as Lifestream pointed out earlier, the way Sandor regards Sansa seems to evolve after the Blackwater as well).

[Lifestream]

19 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Yes of course the Hound's ableist cracks at him didn't really help to the warm the relationship.  Before the battle they more or less had a cordial at best relationship.  No reason to be friends.  He's the Queen's man after all.  I don't feel it started to turn really hostile until the events of the battle.  Yes, Tyrion is the Hand, but most importantly he is a Lannister.  They will go full Rains of Castamere on you for defiance or failure.  Tywin certainly laid down that reputation long ago.  So even if they aren't motivated by Tyrion's leadership, they probably fear Lannister retribution more than the battle itself.  So that's one way to get your troops to obey your orders.  And no, Cersei doesn't doubt Tyrion is fighting for their side to win.  The only time she questions anything is when it's in regards to Joffrey being anywhere remotely near danger.  She would rather him be inside Maegor's, but even Lancel "go fetch the breastplate stretcher" Lannister knows that Joffrey needs to be seen among the troops.  

Well, I do think he sees him first and foremost as the Queen's man.  This is post stripping and beating Sansa, where Tyrion assumes he can distract Joffrey with a prostitute.  He needed to do that when the Hound was off duty and away.  This is also just as deluded as Cersei thinking she can control Joffrey.  He's getting older and is wielding absolute power.  Joffrey can sometimes be steered with giving him flattery or distraction, but that's not working anymore.  He's quickly getting to a point where he feels free and empowered to indulge every sadistic idea that occurs to him.  That's the thing.  Tyrion thinks a prostitute can entertain him and that will be enough.  We both know that unfortunate girl would very quickly be tortured, because Joffrey doesn't want to just see tits.  He enjoys making women suffer.  He's a true sadist.  

And certainly the Hound has allowed himself to be thought of in many ways as a loyal obedient dog.  Being so implicitly trusted has gained him a lot of privileges and latitude when it comes to his refusal to swear vows.  That's usually a must for kingsguards, but for him they make the exception.  It occurs to no one that the Hound would ever leave their service.  He is essentially a royal family insider and a fly on the wall.  They definitely do make a distinction between the Hound and the Mountain as the Mountain would never be allowed near the royal children.  He's much too volatile.  I agree that the Hound is actually even more intelligent than he lets on.  There's a lot to be said for keeping your cards close to your chest, especially at court.  If he's underestimated, it's mostly intentionally so.  I don't expect Tyrion to "consider his feelings."  I would expect him to consider the ramifications of pissing off and ruining the career of one of your best and most loyal commanders.  The Lannisters are carelessly losing loyal and highly qualified people in their service with short-sighted decisions.  I'm saying Tyrion is making the same mistake he criticized Joffrey for.  

I don't believe he was targeting the Hound either to make some sort of example, but it was definitely short-sighted.  He didn't see it at the time for the big deal that it was.  Sandor certainly was never friendly to Tyrion which does encourage a bias, but Tyrion is not a military man and he should not have presumed to know best especially when there was good objective reason to re-think the strategy.  If in Tyrion's mind his only objective is to win, it shouldn't matter whose strategy they are using if it's a sound one.  It is in Tyrion's personality this need to prove he's the smartest guy in the room, whether he's right or wrong.  He does have an intense neediness to be recognized that overshadows many of his decisions.  That can lead to undervaluing other people's experience or knowledge and overvaluing his own.  That's why I think it's so appropriate that George wrote the outcome of the battle as Tyrion actually losing so much of what he personally values.  He got zero recognition, worse his nephew and father claimed all the credit, he was made even uglier and almost died, he lost his precious position as Hand, and the Hound abandoned them after Tyrion pushed him too far.  

I completely agree with that last line.  Losing the Hound, the one competent Kingsguard in KL, had huge ramifications.  I do believe the plot to kill Joffrey wouldn't have happened because the Hound is actually a very observant guy.  The irony is that he replaced Barristan Selmy and people think the KG has sunk to it's lowest.  Not in the least.  I think he would have been actually doing his job at the wedding and watching everything.  The KG really sinks to its lowest after they lose the Hound.  Tyrion or Sansa would probably never have been framed either.  

I still don't quite think Sandor became really overtly hostile to Tyrion until it started to affect him personally.  There's still a lot we don't know, but I suspect in this context it was speaking out of anger because I really don't know what in the past Tyrion could have done to him personally to make him wish him dead long ago.  Now when the Hound finds out later about Tyrion marrying Sansa, his reaction is visceral. I suspect that Sandor imagines the worst happening to Sansa because of the Tysha incident.  He wishes Sansa to torture him to death and he's never been one to draw out killing or to torture anyone.  That was pretty exceptional.  Even at the blackwater he says he wishes Tyrion were burned, not killed, expressing a wish that Tyrion should know how it feels to be burned.  That line is a curiosity then.  Unless it was just spoken in anger, I can't imagine what Tyrion did that would make Sandor wish he had killed him years ago.    

                 

Well for all the credit Tyrion for his intellect, sometimes he can't see past his nose. Best example is Shae, where he let his feelings completely delude him into believing she was actually in love with him.

Secondly, I think like all the Lannisters, he too suffers from underestimating people especially those who may be of lower status.

And thirdly he let LF get away with so many things by getting distracting with Cersei and Shae. Like come ON! not only are LF's actions super shady, but he's responsible for so many things and Varys keeps hinting at him.

A small correction, Sandor is talking about the Queen not Sansa when he wishes for Tyrion to be tortured.

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"I forgot, you've been hiding under a rock. The northern girl. Winterfell's daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head."

 

That's stupid, Arya thought. Sansa only knows songs, not spells, and she'd never marry the Imp.

 

The Hound sat on the bench closest the door. His mouth twitched, but only the burned side. "She ought to dip him in wildfire and cook him. Or tickle him till the moon turns black." He raised his wine cup and drained it straightaway.

I remember I'd misread it the same way as you.

 

This might sound controversial but...have you ever considered the possibility that Sandor was working for Littlefinger? Whenever the whole valyrian dagger topic comes up people try to link it to LF. And George himself has said that LF had a hidden influence over Joffrey, but he wasn't there during the incident. And looking at the characters, I always come upon Sandor. Sandor has a lot of influence over Joffrey (though he starts losing it after he is crowned a King) and in Tyrion's chapter, they are discussing about Bran and putting him out of his misery.

Later on, when Tyrion arrives to the conclusion that it was Joffrey, it kind of is accepted that he did it to impress Robert. At this point though, Joffrey doesn't appear to care anything about Robert, even when Robert dies he's like whatever. But with Cersei's POV, she wishes the Hound was still around and how Joffrey had a certain fondness to him and saw him as a father figure. So what if Joffrey was really trying to do Sandor a favor/impress him and not Robert?

 

Interestingly, when Sansa meets with Dontos in the godswood, upon her return she encounters the Hound. he asks her where she was and she lies, but he doesn't believe her. Either way, he advises her to be a better liar and doesn't press on. I'm not doubting the fact that Sandor is concerned about her and that feelings are developing, but shouldn't he try to find out no matter what if he's loyal to the Lannisters considering he's also Joffrey's personal guard?

 

Then again when Joffrey has the Kingsguard beat Sansa, he commands (for the first time ever) Sandor to also join in. And Dontos intervenes at the perfect time.

 

And then there's another thing. The Lannisters are the ones who have enabled and encouraged most of Gregor's brutal nature. Why would Sandor be ok belong in the same team as his brother who he obviously hates? And why would he choose to serve such people? I understand the Lannisters have gold, but I just find it weird that Sandor is not troubled at all serving the same exact people who are partially responsible for Gregor? Unless, he's not? I could see him working for LF, would agree with his character more.And if that was the case, it could explain why he hates Tyrion way before the battle of the Blackwater, cause he has received LF's version of events (like Sansa).

 

I'd say the biggest "hole" in this, is that LF, when telling Sansa his plans, never mentions Sandor. So one could say "If Sandor worked for LF, why didn't LF tell Sansa?". I've thought about it and the best I can come up with is that Sandor failed in his mission and LF doesn't mention his failures. There are lots of hints that point to Mandon Moore being LF's man (and Varys hints at it, not only Mandon but other Kingsguard I think). So if Mandon was indeed LF's man, he doesn't get mentioned either because in the end he pretty much failed.

It's also funny how LF talks about pawns and players and how pawns can do their own thing and not always act according to how you want them (something that Cersei's has yet to learn) and then he says that the white cloak does weird things to a man.

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Osmund has become especially unreliable since he joined the Kingsguard. That white cloak does things to a man, I find. Even a man like him

I don't think LF is talking only about Osmund here. It seems like he has witnessed a fair amount of people that have been affected by the white cloak to come to that conclusion.

 

Just to make one thing clear, I'm in no way debating that Sandor has not come to care for Sansa, but i could accept that he started out with different intentions and the fact that she's alive and unhurt (for the most part) is because he'd received specific instructions to keep her safe (from say LF).

 

Does it sound too outlandish?

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

21 minutes ago, Lifestream said:

I wonder if he cared one little bit about Joffrey, considering how much time they spent together. I know unpopular opinion, but I always felt like the dog who goes up to sniff Joffrey's corpse was supposed to symbolize Sandor and it's not some insignificant scene. I also find it telling that Sansa wonders what Sandor feels like that Joffrey is dead

That black dog always caught my eye for that reason.  A dog can smell a lie.  That's why I do believe the PW wouldn't have gone down like it did if Sandor was there. 

24 minutes ago, Lifestream said:

So I've been thinking that perhaps, whether Sandor cared to a point about Joffrey or not, is ambiguous and not a hard "no". If Sansa's been spending time around both of them, why wouldn't she be more certain that the Hound would in no way in hell care about him? And from Cersei's POV we do know that Joffrey might, at some point, have looked up to the Hound. I can understand why no one wants to consider this or would not take my suggestion seriously considering Joffrey's nature, but I feel if it was true it wouldn't retract from Sandor in any way. It'd be completely understandable to me as Joffrey did show a sort of fondness for him. I'd like to hear your view on this.

It's probably not a hard "no" like you say.  Joffrey was certainly looking for a father figure that Robert didn't provide at all.  I do think it would be a more one-sided relationship on Joffrey's end.  Things might have been different with Joffrey being young.  As he gets older and his personality is growing more fixed, I don't see the Hound as caring too much about Joffrey.  In fact in the training yard scene at Winterfell, I see the Hound as almost encouraging Rodrick Cassel to give Joffrey live steel and let him put his money where his mouth is.    If you read that entire scene over, you'll notice Joffrey getting really quiet after shit gets real.  I'm sure there were moments the HOund wishes he could say some things to Joffrey that Tyrion does.  I look also at JOffrey's nameday tourney and Tommen jousts against the quintain.  The Hound actually says Tommen has courage because he's not afraid of looking foolish.  He gets up and tries again.  Joffrey just brags but never tries to avoid being exposed as cowardly and unskilled.  If anything, we have more of an example of the Hound being fatherly to Tommen rather than Joffrey.  I think the Hound might have taken up a fatherly role with Joffrey if Joffrey's nature would have actually appreciated it.  Certainly later on, when Joffrey begins abusing Sansa he's really done with that kid.  

[Lifestream]

12 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yeah, I'm not sure. He never has a "fuck the king" moment like in the show, so he may not have hated Joffrey after all. Then again, it's because of Joffrey that Sansa was constantly beaten and humiliated, so I doubt he had much sympathy for the kid.

I remember someone asking if the Hound and Sansa would ever meet again, and George replied that the Hound was dead and Sansa might be gone. So yes, I would definitely say the parallel is intentional :-) 

Haha yes, there are still so many unanswered things regarding Sandor and Sansa. I think when someone mentioned that Sandor may have taken lady's place, didn't George comment with "Interesting" or something? And ok, this might be wishful thinking, but when Varamyr six skins is describing the bonds of a skinchanger and the animals, he says that a relationship with a wolf/direwolf is like marriage. True, Sandor is no direwolf or wolf, but his bond with Sansa seems to have replaced Lady. And whenever she calls for Lady, something Hound related happens.

 

When I had made a thread about that in reddit, i'd also not found an instance where Sandor badmouths Joffrey which was really weird considering what a piece of work he is. And he even calls him "Joff" on some occasion when he has deserted. That indicates closeness and informality.  Well whatever he might have felt about Joffrey, even some sort of positive feeling (even a sample), I'm sure was gone once Joffrey became King. They were becoming estranged.

[The Bard of Banefort]

4 minutes ago, Lifestream said:

Well for all the credit Tyrion for his intellect, sometimes he can't see past his nose. Best example is Shae, where he let his feelings completely delude him into believing she was actually in love with him.

Secondly, I think like all the Lannisters, he too suffers from underestimating people especially those who may be of lower status.

And thirdly he let LF get away with so many things by getting distracting with Cersei and Shae. Like come ON! not only are LF's actions super shady, but he's responsible for so many things and Varys keeps hinting at him.

A small correction, Sandor is talking about the Queen not Sansa when he wishes for Tyrion to be tortured.

I remember I'd misread it the same way as you.

 

This might sound controversial but...have you ever considered the possibility that Sandor was working for Littlefinger? Whenever the whole valyrian dagger topic comes up people try to link it to LF. And George himself has said that LF had a hidden influence over Joffrey, but he wasn't there during the incident. And looking at the characters, I always come upon Sandor. Sandor has a lot of influence over Joffrey (though he starts losing it after he is crowned a King) and in Tyrion's chapter, they are discussing about Bran and putting him out of his misery.

Later on, when Tyrion arrives to the conclusion that it was Joffrey, it kind of is accepted that he did it to impress Robert. At this point though, Joffrey doesn't appear to care anything about Robert, even when Robert dies he's like whatever. But with Cersei's POV, she wishes the Hound was still around and how Joffrey had a certain fondness to him and saw him as a father figure. So what if Joffrey was really trying to do Sandor a favor/impress him and not Robert?

 

Interestingly, when Sansa meets with Dontos in the godswood, upon her return she encounters the Hound. he asks her where she was and she lies, but he doesn't believe her. Either way, he advises her to be a better liar and doesn't press on. I'm not doubting the fact that Sandor is concerned about her and that feelings are developing, but shouldn't he try to find out no matter what if he's loyal to the Lannisters considering he's also Joffrey's personal guard?

 

Then again when Joffrey has the Kingsguard beat Sansa, he commands (for the first time ever) Sandor to also join in. And Dontos intervenes at the perfect time.

 

And then there's another thing. The Lannisters are the ones who have enabled and encouraged most of Gregor's brutal nature. Why would Sandor be ok belong in the same team as his brother who he obviously hates? And why would he choose to serve such people? I understand the Lannisters have gold, but I just find it weird that Sandor is not troubled at all serving the same exact people who are partially responsible for Gregor? Unless, he's not? I could see him working for LF, would agree with his character more.And if that was the case, it could explain why he hates Tyrion way before the battle of the Blackwater, cause he has received LF's version of events (like Sansa).

 

I'd say the biggest "hole" in this, is that LF, when telling Sansa his plans, never mentions Sandor. So one could say "If Sandor worked for LF, why didn't LF tell Sansa?". I've thought about it and the best I can come up with is that Sandor failed in his mission and LF doesn't mention his failures. There are lots of hints that point to Mandon Moore being LF's man (and Varys hints at it, not only Mandon but other Kingsguard I think). So if Mandon was indeed LF's man, he doesn't get mentioned either because in the end he pretty much failed.

It's also funny how LF talks about pawns and players and how pawns can do their own thing and not always act according to how you want them (something that Cersei's has yet to learn) and then he says that the white cloak does weird things to a man.

I don't think LF is talking only about Osmund here. It seems like he has witnessed a fair amount of people that have been affected by the white cloak to come to that conclusion.

 

Just to make one thing clear, I'm in no way debating that Sandor has not come to care for Sansa, but i could accept that he started out with different intentions and the fact that she's alive and unhurt (for the most part) is because he'd received specific instructions to keep her safe (from say LF).

 

Does it sound too outlandish?

That's an interesting line of thought that I hadn't considered before, but I doubt that Sandor was working for Littlefinger. One of the reasons why he's call the Hound is because he's incredibly loyal to his "master," which for most of the time had been Cersei. I don't think LF would risk Sandor possibly outing him to Cersei. I also think that LF may well be in the same category as Tyrion in Sandor's mind, which isn't likely to endear him to him.

(Of course, that trademark loyalty fades a bit in ACOK, but that's part of his character development).

[Lifestream]

23 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

@Lifestream Great analysis on the pre-blackwater interaction with Sansa.  I think Sandor says some of his meanest lines to Sansa and he does some really over the top posturing with the sword at her neck because this is just before the battle.  He is completely sober here and he was already on the battlements before Sansa arrived.  What he was doing up there was dealing with pre-battle anxiety.  He knows he's going to be on the front lines.  He knows he's facing the wildfire.  He's very on edge and contemplating his own mortality by possibly burning to death.  This is completely normal for a soldier to have anxiety before battle, but compound that with the threat of wildfire.  I think that explains a lot as to why he was so harsh to Sansa.  

Even Sansa does acknowledge she should have gone to him earlier to thank him.  With the cut on his arm, there was reason to believe he wasn't wearing full plate during the riot.  The danger of them both getting swarmed and killed was very real.  I believe you are absolutely right that he won't admit it, but he really did want Sansa to thank him properly.  It was probably a moment he regarded as his finest hour where he got to do something truly heroic for someone he cared about.  He does later misrepresent this moment to Arya when he claims Sansa sang him a song after he saved her from the riot.  He clearly romanticizes it and re-wrote the telling of it.  A part of me says Sansa didn't rush to thank him because he wasn't the ideal shining knight.  I don't think she would have hesitated had it been Loras that saved her.  So yeah, she does admit it was weak to thank him days later after just bumping into him, not even seeking him out.  And when she does thank him it was super formal wall of courtesy thank you.  I think she realizes how grateful she actually is upon reflection when she has her nightmare of the riot and no one comes to save her.  I also think she realizes how cold and detached the courtesy treatment can feel when you're on the receiving end of it in her encounter with Loras Tyrell on her way to meeting Olenna and Margaery.  She tries to converse with Loras and makes attempts at meaningful conversation, but it ends up putting him off her and he treats her with polite and cool detachment.  It's a good lesson in real chemistry between people and that despite all his faults, what the Hound actually wants is to be real with her and she with him.  

I completely agree with your assessment of the HOund and some of his unfairly drawn conclusions.  She really does look at him and comes to a genuine conclusion that it's his anger that she doesn't like.  She's not rejecting him, but his worst flaw.  Once he realizes she is really looking at him and seeing him truly, he can't handle it.  The double edged sword of intimacy is that you have to be vulnerable with another person and he hates feeling vulnerable.  It's such a great dynamic of two very flawed people hitting walls but also breaking through them.    

I'm glad you liked it! I don't quite remember what else took place before she thanked him, but I wouldn't be surprised if Sansa was out of sorts in a way. I mean she did almost get raped and the threat of death was very real for both of them. Then there's also the impeding battle. So it wouldn't be unrealistic that Sansa has many things concerning her at the moment.

 

I don't know how many days passed between the riots and Sansa's encounter with the Hound. Do you happen to have a number? i can understand why she didn't thank him the same day though, must have been in shock.

 

I would really like to know Sandor's real thought on the night of the Blackwater battle. I mean sure, he does tell Arya that she sang for him, but when he's on the verge of dying he admits that what he said wasn't true and does admit to forcing Sansa. I'd think he doesn't truly believe it the way Sansa believes the kiss happened. What i find more interesting still, is the fact that the tears and the touch of Sansa's hand to his scarred face is never mentioned by either. Like Sansa remembers everything accurately, but the kiss and doesn't mention the more intimate thing that happened in the darkness and we're in her thoughts. Sandor no way would mention it either, not in front of Arya, but I wonder if he does think of that specific moment and action.

 

Yeah, the Hound draws conclusions again that night. When he goes there and gets close to Sansa, she believes he's going in for a kiss, but judging from Sandor reaction which is more along the lines of "Still can't bear to look at me" it seems to me that Sandor moved in so Sansa would have a better look and didn't intend to kiss her (also what kind of kiss would it be if he expected Sansa to keep her eyes open during the kiss? It makes no sense). But Sansa had in fact looked at his face, but since it's probably dark Sandor could not tell, as a result both misunderstand each other's actions.

 

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"Everything scares you. Look at me. Look at me."

 

The blood masked the worst of his scars, but his eyes were white and wide and terrifying. The burnt corner of his mouth twitched and twitched again. Sansa could smell him; a stink of sweat and sour wine and stale vomit, and over it all the reek of blood, blood, blood.

 

"I could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them." He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over, but nothing happened. "Still can't bear to look, can you?" she heard him say. He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed. "I'll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said." His dagger was out, poised at her throat. "Sing, little bird. Sing for your little life."

This all must be happening rather fast. Sandor telling Sansa to look at him and her doing so, then him leaning in so he can get a better look and she misunderstanding his action and he then misunderstanding her. Darkness too op.

 

The problem with Loras, when she's trying to have a conversation, seems to be primarily because he doesn't remember. Sansa mentions the rose he gave her during the Hand's Tourney and he plays along. And I think she goes on to mention Renly which is a really touchy subject for Loras (unbeknownst to her) so he grows cold towards her.

[Lifestream]

27 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

That black dog always caught my eye for that reason.  A dog can smell a lie.  That's why I do believe the PW wouldn't have gone down like it did if Sandor was there. 

It's probably not a hard "no" like you say.  Joffrey was certainly looking for a father figure that Robert didn't provide at all.  I do think it would be a more one-sided relationship on Joffrey's end.  Things might have been different with Joffrey being young.  As he gets older and his personality is growing more fixed, I don't see the Hound as caring too much about Joffrey.  In fact in the training yard scene at Winterfell, I see the Hound as almost encouraging Rodrick Cassel to give Joffrey live steel and let him put his money where his mouth is.    If you read that entire scene over, you'll notice Joffrey getting really quiet after shit gets real.  I'm sure there were moments the HOund wishes he could say some things to Joffrey that Tyrion does.  I look also at JOffrey's nameday tourney and Tommen jousts against the quintain.  The Hound actually says Tommen has courage because he's not afraid of looking foolish.  He gets up and tries again.  Joffrey just brags but never tries to avoid being exposed as cowardly and unskilled.  If anything, we have more of an example of the Hound being fatherly to Tommen rather than Joffrey.  I think the Hound might have taken up a fatherly role with Joffrey if Joffrey's nature would have actually appreciated it.  Certainly later on, when Joffrey begins abusing Sansa he's really done with that kid.  

Definitely ya, of course I wasn't claiming that Sandor felt strongly about Joffrey, only that he may have grown a sort of attachment towards him over the years and it'd definitely make more sense prior to AGOT, before Joffrey revealed his true nature in all of its shapes and forms.

 

Surprisingly, he does not badmouth Joffrey even after leaving his service. Kind of strange, he seems like a man who has no problems expressing his thoughts regarding someone (except his real thoughts about Sansa).

 

Hm.. well I think we can all agree that Sandor grew to care about Sansa, but he did show it in various weird ways and even insulting ways. And he was brash even when giving her advice.

Wouldn't complain if we could discover what he really thinks about Joffrey and how his opinion changed from the beginning of AGOT to ACOK before leaving. But oh well, he's not a POV

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

12 minutes ago, Lifestream said:

A small correction, Sandor is talking about the Queen not Sansa when he wishes for Tyrion to be tortured.

That's interesting and I could see how it could be read that way.  It still makes more sense that he's talking about Sansa and here's why.  Since we find him again in the Riverlands in Arya's arc, right from the jump we see who is mind is really fixated on.  When he sees Arya, he doesn't say "Seven Hells!  It's Arya Stark!"  He says "Seven Hells!  It's the little sister!"  It's subtle, but the way he identifies her indicates he's been fixated on the big sister.  He tries to avoid talking about Sansa to Arya most of the time, but he can't help himself and stuff begins to slip.  He talks about getting a lordship and joining Robb's army.  He's never had ambition to lordship before.  Why does he imply he wants to put down roots serving King Robb and raise his social status. Joining Robb's army means he would eventually be heading south again to KL.  He stops drinking during this time because his mind is focused on a purpose and that is using Arya as his ticket to get back to Sansa.  Then he tells Arya about the riot and misrepresents how she came to sing the song, reflecting a more idealized version of events.  So we can see even without saying too much to Arya directly where his mind has been all this time.  The Red Wedding just crushes all that.  He starts drinking again and acting more depressed.  He doesn't even really care what Arya does.  He chops wood to the point of physical exhaustion to shut his mind off.  By the time they get to the inn and encounter the Mountain's men, we get even more of a reveal of where his mind is and isn't.  This is a highly dangerous situation and he's drinking large amounts of wine on an empty stomach.  He finds out about Tyrion marrying Sansa and he just ends up staring into the fire.

Quote

"Not for long," said Polliver. "He's under siege. Old Frey's going to hang Edmure Tully unless he yields the castle. The only real fighting's around Raventree. Blackwoods and Brackens. The Brackens are ours now."
The Hound poured a cup of wine for Arya and another for himself, and drank it down while staring at the hearthfire. "The little bird flew away, did she? Well, bloody good for her. She shit on the Imp's head and flew off."

He's just sitting there staring and downing drink after drink.  They aren't even talking about Sansa anymore but the seige of Riverrun.  Then Sandor unprompted turns the conversation back to Sansa.  His mind is just fixated on her.  So considering all of this, I don't think he was talking about Cersei at all.  You were right the first time.  He's talking about what Sansa should do to avenge herself.  And in his dying regrets, his last line is about leaving her for the dwarf.  He's clearly imagining the worst and he is angry at himself for leaving her.     

39 minutes ago, Lifestream said:

Interestingly, when Sansa meets with Dontos in the godswood, upon her return she encounters the Hound. he asks her where she was and she lies, but he doesn't believe her. Either way, he advises her to be a better liar and doesn't press on. I'm not doubting the fact that Sandor is concerned about her and that feelings are developing, but shouldn't he try to find out no matter what if he's loyal to the Lannisters considering he's also Joffrey's personal guard?

I think this part is pretty easily explained.  She kept his biggest secret, so he's giving her the same respect.  I'm sure he doesn't imagine in a million years she's planning an escape but he's giving her space to have her privacy.  Let her carve out a little place where she's free of being spied on.  She didn't betray him, he's not going to betray her.

And no, I don't think he's working for LF.  At all.  The reason it is such a big deal that Sandor leaves the Lannisters is because he is so unquestioningly loyal.  It would undermine a lot of plot and characterization to have him secretly betraying them for LF.  Remember, it's Sansa that starts to crack that loyalty to the unworthy masters.  It's Sansa that reawakens his buried idealism.  It's Sansa that makes him question his service to awful people.  Cersei took her wolf, so Sansa takes her dog.  That falls flat if he was already disloyal.  LF really doesn't need more agents to make the plot work.  He was already himself a court insider on the small council.  Everything he has done could be accomplished just as it is written.  He had the gold cloaks, Dontos, and the Kettleblacks.  Sandor as an agent contributes nothing to advance the plot.  

      

 

[Annara Snow]

3 hours ago, Lifestream said:

Sorry if I'm a bit late and you might have resolved this, but I'd like to correct the person quoted. Sandor doesn't regret standing there in his white cloak seeing Ned executed. He regerts standing there in his white cloak and seeing Sansa getting beaten for no reason.

You're wrong. He did mention standing there and watching Ned executed, as one of his sins. It just wasn't in his 'dying' scene, it was in another, earlier chapter/scene, when he was similarly confessing to Arya, after his duel with Beric, when he got burned and had another PTSD attack and cried:

Quote

His arm, Arya thought, and his face. But he was the Hound. He deserved to burn in a fiery hell. The knife felt heavy in her hand. She gripped it tighter. “You killed Mycah,” she said once more, daring him to deny it. “Tell them. You did. You did.”
“I did.” His whole face twisted. “I rode him down and cut him in half, and laughed. I watched them beat your sister bloody too, watched them cut your father’s head off.”
Lem grabbed her wrist and twisted, wrenching the dagger away. She kicked at him, but he would not give it back. “You go to hell, Hound,” she screamed at Sandor Clegane in helpless empty-handed rage. “You just go to hell!”
“He has,” said a voice scarce stronger than a whisper.
When Arya turned, Lord Beric Dondarrion was standing behind her, his bloody hand clutching Thoros by the shoulder.

Other than that, great analysis. And also great analysis by @Blue-Eyed Wolf

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

52 minutes ago, Lifestream said:

When I had made a thread about that in reddit, i'd also not found an instance where Sandor badmouths Joffrey which was really weird considering what a piece of work he is. And he even calls him "Joff" on some occasion when he has deserted. That indicates closeness and informality.  Well whatever he might have felt about Joffrey, even some sort of positive feeling (even a sample), I'm sure was gone once Joffrey became King. They were becoming estranged

It's so hard to say for certain without him explicating telling us or a Sandor POV.  There was the moment he encountered Boros Blount and he tells him about Joffrey firing crossbow bolts through the gate at civilians.  Sandor calls him "a brave boy" in obvious sarcasm.  Perhaps more of his dislike is reserved for his parents, who were absolutely dysfunctional.  Robert was abusive and neglectful and Cersei over indulgent.  Perhaps will find out in the next books how he really felt about all that.  He seemed to have zero reaction to Joffrey getting murdered though.  He seems to believe that it's likely she could have poisoned Joffrey, she certainly had reason to.  He may not be happy about it, but perhaps he sees the kid had it coming.  He was bound to meet some kind of bad end. 

43 minutes ago, Lifestream said:

I don't know how many days passed between the riots and Sansa's encounter with the Hound. Do you happen to have a number? i can understand why she didn't thank him the same day though, must have been in shock.

 

I just checked the ASOIAF timeline.  It was about 2 months.  YIKES!  Worse than I initially thought.  No wonder he was salty.

48 minutes ago, Lifestream said:

I would really like to know Sandor's real thought on the night of the Blackwater battle. I mean sure, he does tell Arya that she sang for him, but when he's on the verge of dying he admits that what he said wasn't true and does admit to forcing Sansa. I'd think he doesn't truly believe it the way Sansa believes the kiss happened. What i find more interesting still, is the fact that the tears and the touch of Sansa's hand to his scarred face is never mentioned by either. Like Sansa remembers everything accurately, but the kiss and doesn't mention the more intimate thing that happened in the darkness and we're in her thoughts. Sandor no way would mention it either, not in front of Arya, but I wonder if he does think of that specific moment and action.

 

Yeah, the Hound draws conclusions again that night. When he goes there and gets close to Sansa, she believes he's going in for a kiss, but judging from Sandor reaction which is more along the lines of "Still can't bear to look at me" it seems to me that Sandor moved in so Sansa would have a better look and didn't intend to kiss her (also what kind of kiss would it be if he expected Sansa to keep her eyes open during the kiss? It makes no sense). But Sansa had in fact looked at his face, but since it's probably dark Sandor could not tell, as a result both misunderstand each other's actions.

I think no one is harder on Sandor than Sandor about how the Blackwater went down.  In his confession to Arya he places standing there in his white cloak while they beat her on the same level as killing Mycah.  The two are paired together in his speech.  He admits he was a gutless fraud.  The self-loathing is evident.  He admits he took what should have been freely given.  While he probably wished for more deep down, he went into that scene demanding only a literal song.  He specifically asks for her to sing Florian and Jonquil.  And this is bad enough to demand anything of her, so thank goodness he wasn't speaking of the song figuratively.  But his reflection upon taking the song (and this much he and Sansa agree upon that he "took" it) is so much worse than the way Sansa reflects upon it.  By his tears and self-loathing he acts as if he is the worst piece of a shit that ever crawled on the Earth and his brother is the Mountain so that's saying something.  In reality, what he did was frightening and wildly inappropriate, but he did no permanent damage.  It's implied Sansa has already forgiven him by wrapping herself in his cloak.  She wasn't rejecting him, but rejecting the worst of his traits.  Her first reflection upon the events is factually true and not emotionally charged at all.  She even says she's spent a few nights almost regretting not going with him.  So her feelings on the matter are way more level headed and carefully considered.  

I think there was a misunderstanding of each other's actions.  I think, and giving the low-level warging connection idea some credence here, he probably did want to kiss her but knew that would not be okay for many reasons.  She, sensing that, instinctively readied herself for the kiss.  Then he interprets this as she can't look at him, not thinking in a million years she would even want to kiss him.         

[Foot_Of_The_King]

On 6/25/2017 at 8:33 PM, Lifestream said:

After the battle of the Blackwater, in which Sandor's phobia was the reason Sandor had to leave, Tyrion gathered his courage and went out and fought as bravely as he could. So with his act Tyrion pretty much humiliated Sandor in the worst way posible (though not on purpose). So I think after this event, Sandor came to detest Tyrion. After learning of his marriage to Sansa I think his feelings for Tyrion got even more negative. If you pay attention, while they're drinking with Gregor's men and getting info regarding what happened in KL, Sandor refers to Tyrion in all sorts of hateful ways. I think his hate for Tyrion is also apparent as he is included in his dying words.

These have always been my thoughts. Tyrion out manned him at the Blackwater and he got the girl (Sandor's little bird). 

[Lifestream]

10 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

You're wrong. He did mention standing there and watching Ned executed, as one of his sins. It just wasn't in his 'dying' scene, it was in another, earlier chapter/scene, when he was similarly confessing to Arya, after his duel with Beric, when he got burned and had another PTSD attack and cried:

Other than that, great analysis. And also great analysis by @Blue-Eyed Wolf

I was only trying to correct the person who posted, because they said that Sandor was standing there in his white cloak and regretting Ned's death. I'm not saying that Sandor was okay with it or found it justified (and I really don't know cause he's never gotten in depth about it) only that the mention of regret and the white cloak seemed to fit much more with his dying words where he does emphasize his white cloak and the regret he had towards not protecting Sansa.

I was never debating the fact that Sandor witnessed Ned's execution. only that the feelings of regret he expressed where aimed at Sansa. i don't know how he truly felt about Ned. But I do think he viewed Robert somewhat favorably due to his brave nature.

 

9 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

It's so hard to say for certain without him explicating telling us or a Sandor POV.  There was the moment he encountered Boros Blount and he tells him about Joffrey firing crossbow bolts through the gate at civilians.  Sandor calls him "a brave boy" in obvious sarcasm.  Perhaps more of his dislike is reserved for his parents, who were absolutely dysfunctional.  Robert was abusive and neglectful and Cersei over indulgent.  Perhaps will find out in the next books how he really felt about all that.  He seemed to have zero reaction to Joffrey getting murdered though.  He seems to believe that it's likely she could have poisoned Joffrey, she certainly had reason to.  He may not be happy about it, but perhaps he sees the kid had it coming.  He was bound to meet some kind of bad end. 

Hm...I think he puts the blame of Joffrey's murdered upon the incompetent Kingsguard. After all, they were incompetent, I'm sure he should have noticed. (and only getting worse with Cersei in charge)

Quote

"So much for my brave brothers of the Kingsguard." The Hound gave a snort of contempt.

 

9 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I just checked the ASOIAF timeline.  It was about 2 months.  YIKES!  Worse than I initially thought.  No wonder he was salty.

Wow, that a long time. For real? Unbelievable, that's so long. And it was what 10 chapters from the riot to Sansa thanking him? Damn. Indeed, no wonder XD.

9 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I think no one is harder on Sandor than Sandor about how the Blackwater went down.  In his confession to Arya he places standing there in his white cloak while they beat her on the same level as killing Mycah.  The two are paired together in his speech.  He admits he was a gutless fraud.  The self-loathing is evident.  He admits he took what should have been freely given.  While he probably wished for more deep down, he went into that scene demanding only a literal song.  He specifically asks for her to sing Florian and Jonquil.  And this is bad enough to demand anything of her, so thank goodness he wasn't speaking of the song figuratively.  But his reflection upon taking the song (and this much he and Sansa agree upon that he "took" it) is so much worse than the way Sansa reflects upon it.  By his tears and self-loathing he acts as if he is the worst piece of a shit that ever crawled on the Earth and his brother is the Mountain so that's saying something.  In reality, what he did was frightening and wildly inappropriate, but he did no permanent damage.  It's implied Sansa has already forgiven him by wrapping herself in his cloak.  She wasn't rejecting him, but rejecting the worst of his traits.  Her first reflection upon the events is factually true and not emotionally charged at all.  She even says she's spent a few nights almost regretting not going with him.  So her feelings on the matter are way more level headed and carefully considered.  

I think there was a misunderstanding of each other's actions.  I think, and giving the low-level warging connection idea some credence here, he probably did want to kiss her but knew that would not be okay for many reasons.  She, sensing that, instinctively readied herself for the kiss.  Then he interprets this as she can't look at him, not thinking in a million years she would even want to kiss him.         

I understand it's a big point of debate whether Sandor had other intentions that night or not and I am confused myself. And then there's GRRM who says it may be different for each of them (I think when a fan had asked if the relationship between the two was platonic or romantic) so that really puts me into thought. I can definitely see the romantic context from Sansa and I think that's the point, but it also makes perfect sense to me that Sandor might not be viewing her romantically yet. He does notice that she's becoming a woman, but if he wanted something sexual during that night wouldn't he have touched her inappropriately? I think most characters make those sorts of intentions known in usually that way. Just for me it doesn't play as very sexual in nature.

 

And then there's his confession, which part is regret which part is real and which part is egging on Arya. Are we supposed to not doubt any part of it at all? Are some parts more provocative than others?

 

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

That's an interesting line of thought that I hadn't considered before, but I doubt that Sandor was working for Littlefinger. One of the reasons why he's call the Hound is because he's incredibly loyal to his "master," which for most of the time had been Cersei. I don't think LF would risk Sandor possibly outing him to Cersei. I also think that LF may well be in the same category as Tyrion in Sandor's mind, which isn't likely to endear him to him.

(Of course, that trademark loyalty fades a bit in ACOK, but that's part of his character development).

Hm..well Sandor never refers to Littlefinger in any shape or form throughout the books, does he? Wonder what he thinks of him and whether he views him the same way as Tyrion.

 

1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

That's interesting and I could see how it could be read that way.  It still makes more sense that he's talking about Sansa and here's why.  Since we find him again in the Riverlands in Arya's arc, right from the jump we see who is mind is really fixated on.  When he sees Arya, he doesn't say "Seven Hells!  It's Arya Stark!"  He says "Seven Hells!  It's the little sister!"  It's subtle, but the way he identifies her indicates he's been fixated on the big sister.  He tries to avoid talking about Sansa to Arya most of the time, but he can't help himself and stuff begins to slip.  He talks about getting a lordship and joining Robb's army.  He's never had ambition to lordship before.  Why does he imply he wants to put down roots serving King Robb and raise his social status. Joining Robb's army means he would eventually be heading south again to KL.  He stops drinking during this time because his mind is focused on a purpose and that is using Arya as his ticket to get back to Sansa.  Then he tells Arya about the riot and misrepresents how she came to sing the song, reflecting a more idealized version of events.  So we can see even without saying too much to Arya directly where his mind has been all this time.  The Red Wedding just crushes all that.  He starts drinking again and acting more depressed.  He doesn't even really care what Arya does.  He chops wood to the point of physical exhaustion to shut his mind off.  By the time they get to the inn and encounter the Mountain's men, we get even more of a reveal of where his mind is and isn't.  This is a highly dangerous situation and he's drinking large amounts of wine on an empty stomach.  He finds out about Tyrion marrying Sansa and he just ends up staring into the fire.

It seems to me that from the time he decided to leave KL, he was thinking of joining the Starks.

Quote

"Where will you go?"

 

"Away from here. Away from the fires. Go out the Iron Gate, I suppose. North somewhere, anywhere."

Lol, you're not fooling us Sandor.

1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

He's just sitting there staring and downing drink after drink.  They aren't even talking about Sansa anymore but the seige of Riverrun.  Then Sandor unprompted turns the conversation back to Sansa.  His mind is just fixated on her.  So considering all of this, I don't think he was talking about Cersei at all.  You were right the first time.  He's talking about what Sansa should do to avenge herself.  And in his dying regrets, his last line is about leaving her for the dwarf.  He's clearly imagining the worst and he is angry at himself for leaving her.     

 

I again fucked up and didn't save my post cause I was trying to keep up with the notifications for new posts. So I might miss something. I'm familiar with what you're saying, i think there was an old thread that had pointed out similar things. Wonder if the poster might have been you again?

1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I think this part is pretty easily explained.  She kept his biggest secret, so he's giving her the same respect.  I'm sure he doesn't imagine in a million years she's planning an escape but he's giving her space to have her privacy.  Let her carve out a little place where she's free of being spied on.  She didn't betray him, he's not going to betray her.

And no, I don't think he's working for LF.  At all.  The reason it is such a big deal that Sandor leaves the Lannisters is because he is so unquestioningly loyal.  It would undermine a lot of plot and characterization to have him secretly betraying them for LF.  Remember, it's Sansa that starts to crack that loyalty to the unworthy masters.  It's Sansa that reawakens his buried idealism.  It's Sansa that makes him question his service to awful people.  Cersei took her wolf, so Sansa takes her dog.  That falls flat if he was already disloyal.  LF really doesn't need more agents to make the plot work.  He was already himself a court insider on the small council.  Everything he has done could be accomplished just as it is written.  He had the gold cloaks, Dontos, and the Kettleblacks.  Sandor as an agent contributes nothing to advance the plot.

Ya this makes sense and it's a very simple explanation, somehow it just never crossed my mind.

 

[Annara Snow]

9 minutes ago, Lifestream said:

I was only trying to correct the person who posted, because they said that Sandor was standing there in his white cloak and regretting Ned's death. I'm not saying that Sandor was okay with it or found it justified (and I really don't know cause he's never gotten in depth about it) only that the mention of regret and the white cloak seemed to fit much more with his dying words where he does emphasize his white cloak and the regret he had towards not protecting Sansa.

I was never debating the fact that Sandor witnessed Ned's execution. only that the feelings of regret he expressed where aimed at Sansa. i don't know how he truly felt about Ned. But I do think he viewed Robert somewhat favorably due to his brave nature.

You thought I needed to post that quote to prove he was there when Ned was executed?! We know that anyway. It's pretty clear he does regret that and consider that one of his "sins" that he was guilty of in front of Arya. Killing Mycah, letting Sansa be beaten, letting Ned be executed. Why else was he saying that in such a highly emotional and traumatic moment (it was miles away from the show scene where they made him laugh!)?

[The Bard of Banefort]

I'm really enjoying these analyses. They're all very thoughtful and intriguing. Reading these makes me even more excited to eventually see these two reunited, hopefully sooner than later.

Arya is an extremely observant child, but like her mother, her emotions have a habit of consuming her to the point where she can't focus on anything else. Arya is in an emotionally vulnerable state for the majority of ASOS, and this prevents her from realizing just how frequently the Hound brings up her sister, or how his behavior reflects on his emotions. She notices, for instance, that the Hounds mouth starts twitching when he hears about Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, but is too distracted to decipher what that means.

I'm glad to see the lordship mentioned, because it also reveals a lot about the Hound's psyche. As Blue-Eyed Wolf mentioned, the Hound never cared much for status, but now all of a sudden he's decided that he would very much like a lordship, particularly one in the North that would be won after he got in the Starks' good books by returning Arya to her mother and brother. George was definitely showing rather than telling here, but I think we can safely ascertain the high regard the Hound has for Sansa throughout all of this.