Serra (aka Septa Lemore) and Varys — "Dragons bright and dark"

[Rhae_Valarie]

So I have an interpretation of Moqorro's prophecy that I haven't seen before and I'd love to hear some feedback!

"Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a large shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

so I believe that Tyrion's positioning in the midst of these Dragons demonstrates that the prophecy refers only to Targs that Tyrion has met or is going to meet. For instance, that would probably rule out Bloodraven as the old dragon and make Maester Aemon the obvious candidate. So here is my breakdown of the first two sets:

Old and young: Maester Aemon and Jon Snow, who Tyrion met at the Wall in the first book.

True and False: Daenerys (the only indisputable Targ in the series, who Tyrion seems on route to meet in the next book) and fAegon, who Tyrion just met and there is ample evidence (that had been discussed ad nauseum on the forums in other threads so I won't detail here) that he is not actually Aegon, or even a Targ.

Bright and Dark: 

This is where the interpretations often diverge and where I feel mine is different. Like many others, I believe this line refers to Targs descended from the line of Aerion Brightflame and Daemon Blackfyre. However unlike the previous couplings of young and old, false and true, I don't think this line refers to one "dragon" that is a Brightflame and another that is a Blackfyre. Rather I think that it refers to two people who are each a mix of both - two dragons that are each bright and dark: Varys and his sister Serra, who Tyrion has met under the name of Septa Lemore.

People have speculated that Varys is a Blackfyre through the female line and that his sister was Illyrio's wife Serra, their child was fAegon and now they are conspiring to put their kin on the throne. Like I said, there is ample evidence to support this theory. I've heard this referred to as the Classic Blackfyre theory.

A variation of this is the Brightfyre theory, which postulates that Varys and Serra were descendants of Aerion Brightflame who was exiled to Lys for a time because both Varys and Serra were originally from Lys. Some versions of this theory suggest Illyrio is in fact the Blackfyre descendent.

In my mind, however, neither of these quite gets it right. I believe that Varys and Serra were Descendents of Blackfyres who purposely hid out in Lys in order to intermarry with the Targ descendents of Aerion Brightflame, in order to keep their blood (and therefore their claim to the throne) pure. I do not believe the Varys was descended from the female line of Blackfyres, rather that he was the last of the male line. And my belief all hinges on his castration.

i have seen people use Varys' castration to evidence his Blackfyre blood by putting the sacrifice down to King's blood. However, if the sacrifice was only about King's blood, why not burn leeches, or in fact burn Varys alive, as we have seen Mel do countless times? The choice of burning his genitalia was specific and it is worth noting we have never seen Mel, or any red priest, do this before. If Varys was the last male Blackfyre, by burning his genitals, it wouldn't just be sacrificing the blood of one King, but an entire line of Kings, past and future. All the Blackfyre Kings of old and all those that would have been, had Varys not been cut. That sacrifice would be like King's blood x100. It would also be a very rare occurrence, which would explain why we've never seen Mel do anything like that. How often has an entire line of Kings gotten down to one last male progenitor? I can't think of another time in what I know of the series history (if you can I'd love to hear it. It could provide some interesting insight!).

So for the reason of Varys' castration I believe that he had to be, not only a Blackfyre, but the last Blackfyre. However, because of his Lyseni origin, if anyone is Brightflame, it's probably him. Which means he is a dragon bright (Brightflame) and dark (Blackfyre).

 

Serra, Illyrio's supposedly deceased wife, I believe to be Varys' sister, which would also make her a dragon bright and dark.  (The evidence for her being his sister is very speculative and circumstantial and is best explained within the context of the classic Blackfyre theory. If you aren't familiar, I suggest reading a thread devoted just to the Blackfyre theory, or watching the Alt Shift X video about Varys regardless of the speculative nature of this part of the theory, I think it fits and I personally believe it). However, in order for Serra to qualify for this theory, Tyrion would need to have met or be about to meet her. I believe he has already met her, by the name of Septa Lemore.

Tyrion's observation that the sultry Septa had stretch marks on her stomachs got everyone's gears spinning. Who was her baby? I believe the simplest answer is that her child is the child she has stayed with and raised: fAegon. Taking the guise of a Septa would offer an excuse to stay near her child because many people have Septas and Septons tutor noble children. Septa Lemore is noted as being very beautiful, which goes along with Illyrio's assertion that she once worked in a pleasure house in Lys. Lemore's dark hair could be due to conceal her Valyrian traits. The only evidence that we have for Serra's death is that Illyrio says she is dead. But considering that the entire Blackfyre/Brightfyre theory is predicated on the idea that Illyrio lied, I don't think it's too big of stretch to imagine he lied about this too. 

So to recap: Varys and his sister Serra were born in Lys as the descendents of Aerion Brighflame and as the last Blackfyres. Varys was castrated in some mega King's blood sacrifice that ended the Blackfyre line and left him mutilated. Serra married Illyrio (who I am willing to bet has some Valyrian blood somewhere, it isn't too uncommon in the free cities) and had a boy. Though he technically isn't a Blackfyre, he is still descended through the female line, which was enough to get him the support of the Golden Company. When King's Landing was sacked, Varys and Illyrio realized they had a perfect opportunity to disguise the baby as Aegon (since considering the manner in which the real Aegon was killed, no one could prove that they hadn't switched the babies, like Varys claimed). Serra, not wanting to be separated from her son, faked her death and assumed the guise of a Septa and dyed her hair, so that she could remain close to him without exposing his true identity. Which means that:

Maester Aemon and Jon Snow are the Dragons old and young.

Dany and fAegon are the dragons true and false.

Varys and Serra/Septa Lemore are the dragons bright and dark.

Thanks for reading! I repeatedly said that I didnt include the expansive evidence for the Blackfyre and Brightfyre theories because they are so well know in the forums. However, if there is something specific that is unclear or that I should have noted, please let me know and I'll do my best to clear it up and show where I'm coming from. I'd love to hear your thoughts and feedback!!

 

[The_Red_Viper_of_Dorne]

Very interesting. Do you have a link to "The Classic Blackfyre Theory"?

[Makk]

I'm not sure about Lemore being Sera. I do believe that Sera is dead, Tyrion read Illyrio correctly about that and I don't think Illyrio would let her go running off alone. I don't think there really needs to be any stipulation that they are all alive or that Tyrion would meet them all. All your choices sound pretty plausible to me, I just don't think Lemore is Sera.

[ravenous reader]

I'm more interested in why Tyrion is described as 'snarling.'  Although his status as a 'secret Targ' bastard is inching into 'canonical' (have I told you lately how much I despise that word..?) territory, I hate to break it to you, dragons do not 'snarl'!

It's been discredited, based on Joanna's 'seldom' presence in King's Landing (but 'seldom' is not equal to 'never', just saying...); but I'm still partial to the Lannister twins as secret Targs...

Jaime as bright...golden Blackfyre

Cersei as dark sister...

[Rhae_Valarie]

Here's the thread that I first saw the terminology used in, though it is more about the Brightfyre variation than the original theory. I just thought it was a very good breakdown and a very succinct way of explaining the two concepts and the terminology stuck with me. Here is a thread more centered on the "classic Blackfyre" theory. 

I should have included the links before, so thank you for asking!! I hope this provides insight. I think the original posters of these threads did a fantastic job and what they had to say really stuck with me!!

12 minutes ago, The_Red_Viper_of_Dorne said:

Very interesting. Do you have a link to "The Classic Blackfyre Theory"?

 

[The_Red_Viper_of_Dorne]

2 minutes ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

Here's the thread that I first saw the terminology used in, though it is more about the Brightfyre variation than the original theory. I just thought it was a very good breakdown and a very succinct way of explaining the two concepts and the terminology stuck with me. Here is a thread more centered on the "classic Blackfyre" theory. 

I should have included the links before, so thank you for asking!! I hope this provides insight. I think the original posters of these threads did a fantastic job and what they had to say really stuck with me!!

 

Thanks. I really need to re-read the books. I have only read them one time each and it appears I'm missing all the fun! Lol.

[Rhae_Valarie]

3 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I'm more interested in why Tyrion is described as 'snarling.'  Although his status as a 'secret Targ' bastard is inching into 'canonical' (have I told you lately how much I despise that word..?) territory, I hate to break it to you, dragons do not 'snarl'!

It's been discredited, based on Joanna's 'seldom' presence in King's Landing (but 'seldom' is not equal to 'never', just saying...); but I'm still partial to the Lannister twins as secret Targs...

Jaime as bright...golden Blackfyre

Cersei as dark sister...

The case for Tyrion as a Targ bastard does seem to keep getting stronger as time goes by, but the status of the twins throws and interesting wrinkle into the equation because they are so Targ like in so many ways. 

As far as "snarling", a lion might be known to snarl, so even if Tyrion is one of the "dragons" Moqorro sees, he is still half lion, via Joanna, and therefore perhaps still apt to snarl?

[The Bard of Banefort]

Neat theory. I personally like the theory that Malora Hightower is Septa Lemore. The usual rebuttal of that particular theory is that Malora is a maid and Lemore is not, but I mean. . . it's not like this is the first time someone in Westeros would have secretly given birth to a child while hidden in a tower, right? 

8 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I'm more interested in why Tyrion is described as 'snarling.'  Although his status as a 'secret Targ' bastard is inching into 'canonical' (have I told you lately how much I despise that word..?) territory, I hate to break it to you, dragons do not 'snarl'!

It's been discredited, based on Joanna's 'seldom' presence in King's Landing (but 'seldom' is not equal to 'never', just saying...); but I'm still partial to the Lannister twins as secret Targs...

Jaime as bright...golden Blackfyre

Cersei as dark sister...

I think "snarling" is indicative of all the trouble Tyrion's going to cause as a result of his anger (he's already pretty much there with him convincing Aegon to go west when that will probably be what eventually gets the kid killed).

I like the idea of the Lannister twins being secret Targs solely because I would love for the descendants of Dunk and Egg to have wound up together on a perilous journey through the Riverlands 

[Rhae_Valarie]

1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Neat theory. I personally like the theory that Malora Hightower is Septa Lemore. The usual rebuttal of that particular theory is that Malora is a maid and Lemore is not, but I mean. . . it's not like this is the first time someone in Westeros would secretly give birth to a child while hidden in a tower, right? 

I think "snarling" is indicative of all the trouble Tyrion's going to cause as a result of his anger (he's already pretty much there will convincing Aegon to go west when that will probably be what eventually gets the kid killed).

I like the idea of the Lannister twins being secret Targs solely because I would love for the descendants of Dunk and Egg to have wound up together on a perilous journey through the Riverlands 

And wouldn't it be ironic if Tywin, the man obsessed with family and legacy, ended up with no true heirs?

Personally, though, I prefer Tyrion to be a Targ bastard and the twins trueborn because Tywin's children would then exemplify all the characteristics Tywin came to hate in Aerys, while Aerys' son would grow to be the most like Tywin!

also, I have read some Melora theories and it is very interesting! I wouldn't be at all upset if she did turn out to be Lemore.

[Rhae_Valarie]

10 minutes ago, The_Red_Viper_of_Dorne said:

Thanks. I really need to re-read the books. I have only read them one time each and it appears I'm missing all the fun! Lol.

There are some really great videos by Alt Shift X that I listen to on YouTube that might catch you up on some of the wild speculation going on in the forums, lol. And I have a feeling that we're all going to be rereading the books a lot as we wait for TWOW and ADOS, lol.

[ravenous reader]

32 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I like the idea of the Lannister twins being secret Targs solely because I would love for the descendants of Dunk and Egg to have wound up together on a perilous journey through the Riverlands 

Check out the poems on our poetry thread, alluding to the Cersei-Jaime and Brienne-Jaime relationships!  My reworking of the latter is quite amusing.

I love the idea of Jaime being a secret Targ, particularly with reference to this passage, in which I like to imagine Jaime misheard the dragon saying 'I know you kingslayer...'; I think the dragon may have addressed him directly as a prodigal son, saying 'I know you, kinslayer'...!

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

Unless my brother murdered Varys too, and left his corpse to rot beneath the castle. Down there, it might be years before his bones were found. Jaime had led a dozen guards below, with torches and ropes and lanterns. For hours they had groped through twisting passages, narrow crawl spaces, hidden doors, secret steps, and shafts that plunged down into utter blackness. Seldom had he felt so utterly a cripple. A man takes much for granted when he has two hands. Ladders, for an instance. Even crawling did not come easy; not for nought do they speak of hands and knees. Nor could he hold a torch and climb, as others could.

And all for naught. They found only darkness, dust, and rats. And dragons, lurking down below. He remembered the sullen orange glow of the coals in the iron dragon's mouth. The brazier warmed a chamber at the bottom of a shaft where half a dozen tunnels met. On the floor he'd found a scuffed mosaic of the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen done in tiles of black and red. I know you, Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying. I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

he Issue with any brightflame theories is that any offspring will be bastards possessing of all the taint associated with bastardy.  Why would the claimants of a new line marry into something like that?  

[Weirwood Ghost]

Dragons snarl as well...so I've noticed lately lol

[Rhae_Valarie]

7 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

he Issue with any brightflame theories is that any offspring will be bastards possessing of all the taint associated with bastardy.  Why would the claimants of a new line marry into something like that?  

The Blackfyres originate from bastards, so I don't think bastardry could really taint them all that much. Plus, a bastard's offspring can be considered Trueborn. As long as the Blackfyre married the Brightflame, the child would still be considered a true Blackfyre. It doesn't matter if one parent was a bastard themselves. 

I just keep remembering in Dunk and Egg where Eustace Osgrey says he sided with the Blackfyres because Daemon looked like a King. I think it was important that the Blackfyres continue looking like Kings and dragonlords. Marrying others with Valyrian traits and Targ heritage would ensure that. After all, people do seem to put a lot of stock in silver hair and purple eyes, lol. 

[Lord Wraith]

10 hours ago, Weirwood Ghost said:

Dragons snarl as well...so I've noticed lately lol

Granted but it seems Direwolves do most of the snarling in the books.

[Dorian Martell's son]

4 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

The Blackfyres originate from bastards, so I don't think bastardry could really taint them all that much. Plus, a bastard's offspring can be considered Trueborn. As long as the Blackfyre married the Brightflame, the child would still be considered a true Blackfyre. It doesn't matter if one parent was a bastard themselves. 

I just keep remembering in Dunk and Egg where Eustace Osgrey says he sided with the Blackfyres because Daemon looked like a King. I think it was important that the Blackfyres continue looking like Kings and dragonlords. Marrying others with Valyrian traits and Targ heritage would ensure that. After all, people do seem to put a lot of stock in silver hair and purple eyes, lol. 

All of the blackfyres were legitimized at some point. The other issue is Aerion. Was there ever a mention of his fathering bastards?   

[Rhae_Valarie]

59 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

All of the blackfyres were legitimized at some point. The other issue is Aerion. Was there ever a mention of his fathering bastards?   

Not as of yet. The Brightflame part of the theory is very circumstantial, sort of a "right place at the right time" argument that is backed up by certain textual clues, like Moqqorro's prophecy. However it is worth noting that Aerion Brightflame had a trueborn son whose fate hasn't been revealed. So any Brightflame descendents wouldn't necessarily  be descended from Aerion's bastard. Even if they were, however, the entire line wouldn't be considered bastards. For instance, Jon Waters was a bastard, but his son was trueborn so he took the name Longwaters to distinguish himself from bastards and show that he was trueborn.

also, to my knowledge, all the Blackfyres were not legitimized at some point. The original Daemon Blackfyre was legitimized, making all his descendents legitimate as well. There was no need to legitimize them because they were never illegitimate.

[BalerionTheCat]

Tyrion, a small man in the midst of dragons: I would rule him out of the dragons. Maybe.

Never thought much of this prophecy. But I agree, most of it.

False is fAegon. Can't be anyone else. In opposition, True is Daenerys.
Old and Young. Agree. Aemon was the oldest dragon Tyrion met. Daenerys is younger than Jon, but she is also matching True. So, if Old and Young are associated, Young should be Jon.
Bright and Dark. I'm not sure. I'm convinced Varys is Blackfyre. IMO Illyrio Brightflame is pure speculation. But with this prophecy, it makes some sense. But I'm also convinced Jaime and Cersei are Aerys bastards. And if one is dark, the other is bright. And Tyrion is truly between the two. I'd rather give the bright flames to Cersei and the dark story to Jaime. Maybe, Bright and Dark has two meanings.

But I don't think septa Lemore is Serra.

[Dorian Martell's son]

7 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

Not as of yet. The Brightflame part of the theory is very circumstantial, sort of a "right place at the right time" argument that is backed up by certain textual clues, like Moqqorro's prophecy. However it is worth noting that Aerion Brightflame had a trueborn son whose fate hasn't been revealed. So any Brightflame descendents wouldn't necessarily  be descended from Aerion's bastard. Even if they were, however, the entire line wouldn't be considered bastards. For instance, Jon Waters was a bastard, but his son was trueborn so he took the name Longwaters to distinguish himself from bastards and show that he was trueborn.

also, to my knowledge, all the Blackfyres were not legitimized at some point. The original Daemon Blackfyre was legitimized, making all his descendents legitimate as well. There was no need to legitimize them because they were never illegitimate.

all of Aegon's bastards were legitimized. For the other stuff, I was wondering if there was anything in the book to support this as opposed to being a theory that exists to make another theory work. thanks 

[Rhae_Valarie]

Sorry, I'm not sure exactly what you mean. I did post the links to some threads about the Blackfyre theory and the Brightfyre theory. They include some really great textual evidence.  The original posters did a great job, so I didn't feel the need to rehash, but I did link them in reply to another poster's question.

i personally don't prescribe to the Brightfyre theory, which stipulates that Varys is a Brightflame and Illyrio a Blackfyre because I feel there isn't a ton of evidence. 

However I do believe the Blackfyre theory, which posits that Varys is a Blackfyre descendent. My theory that I posted in this thread simply tweaked the circumstances of the mainstream Blackfyre theory, in a couple ways. (However, neither of these theories need mine in order to be true. My theory is just an alternate take on these well known theories).

1. I stipulate that Varys was not a Blackfyre descendent through the female line but in fact the last true Blackfyre. My evidence for this is his castration, which goes far beyond the usual sacrifice of King's Blood. I detail my rational for this more in depth in my original post.

2. In my theory, I state that Varys and Serra have some Brightflame heritage as well. This is based primarily on Moqqorro's prophecy, which strongly suggests that there is a Brightflame running around somewhere, through the phrase "bright dragon". Since both Varys and Serra are from Lys, which Aerion Brightflame spent much time in, I feel this makes them viable candidates. This also fits well with the mainstream Blackfyre theory because Moqqorro speaks of dragons bright and dark. So someone of Blackfyre and Brightflame heritage. I feel this is Varys and Serra. The Brightfyre theory tries to explain Moqqorro's prophecy by finding one person of Blackfyre heritage and one of Brightflame. I tweaked this and stated that it refers to two people (brother and sister) who are a mix of both. Once again, for additional specific textual evidence, I'll refer you to the links I posted in this thread.

I hope that answers your question in a more satisfactory manner. I appreciate you taking the time to read and respond to my theory!

I do have one last question, if you don't mind. I'm still a little confused about your earlier statement that all the Blackfyres were all legitimized at some point. I am aware that, as you just stated, all the great Bastards were legitimized upon Aegon's death. But only one of those Bastards would go on to become a Blackfyre and that was Daemon Waters who later became Daemon I Blackfyre. The other Great Bastards were known by different names. Bittersteel kept his bastard name Aegor Rivers and Bloodraven was still technically Brynden Rivers, so Daemon was the only great bastard who was a Blackfyre and none of his Blackfyre descendents were legitimized because they were never illegitimate. So I guess I'm just not real clear on what you're saying. But if you could clarify it for me I'd love to listen to your point and I appreciate anything you have to say! Thanks again!

46 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

all of Aegon's bastards were legitimized. For the other stuff, I was wondering if there was anything in the book to support this as opposed to being a theory that exists to make another theory work. thanks