Serra (aka Septa Lemore) and Varys — "Dragons bright and dark"

[Rhae_Valarie]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I've got two quotes that parallel his castration in remarkable ways... And neither actually have anything to do with a royal blood sacrifice.

So here's Varys's story

The Unsullied:

Surely the majority of the Unsullied aren't royal blood.

And then we have this scene with Dany in Qarth when wearing a robe of purple silk.

Dany doesn't chop up a penis and testicles, but a snake. However, a penis is nicknamed a one-eyed-snake. She feeds the snake to the magical dragons and they grow. It's a parallel scene to Varys's scene in imagery, but instead of blue flame and a voice, here you have magical dragons spitting all sorts of colored flame.

 

Varys is not just hiding his natural color of hair, but also concealng or masking his natural skin tone with powder (face AND hands).

Plenty of bald people in the books... Belwas, Xaro, Ilyn Payne... That said, I'm not discounting the Egg-Varys link, because actually there are links between Xaro and Varys, and also Varys and House Payne.

Varys and Qarth: a Qaathi ruinous city NW of Qarth near the Red Waste that was renamed "City of Spiders" by the Dothraki, the Qaathi enemies also destroyed by the Dothraki wore "spider silk", and a lost city in the grassland area (where both Qaathi and their enemies originate from, that is from the grasslands) that revered a spider goddess. Varys almost sounds like a Qartheen Sorrowful man to Kevan in the Epilogie with his "forgive me" and "I'm sorry" before ending Kevan's life. And when he speaks as Lord Varys, sometimes all you miss to have Xaro speaking is a perfect single tear rolling from Varys's cheek.

The introductory color scheme that Varys wears is gold and purple (in the same scene where Cat refers to him as being as bald as an egg). This is the color scheme of House Payne - purple, white chequi with gold coins. Tyrion hinted there's a story behind the coins, but not what it actually is. And of course Podrick's eyes are as big as boiled "eggs" at times. House Plumm also sports the gold-purple scheme, except that Varys wears lavender and lilac purple, not plumm. The man who favors a jacket of plum color is actually Littlefinger. And the one time that Tyrion makes a remark about it to LF (as in - those aren't your house colors), LF wears it with yellow satin (yellow satin looks like gold). He wears the plum vest 2 or 3 more times. 

Anyway, plenty of bald guys, but either they can be linked to Varys, or they can be linked to a certain line of dragon descendants. Without checking them all, I'm not sure we can say straightforwardly - Varys is a Blackfyre. In fact the Egg link ties Varys more to Brightflame, since Aerion threatened to cut Egg stem and root

Anyway, Varys's ancestry is a complex mixture imo - partly Qaathi, probably enslaved by Dothraki in the Century of Blood, with all those hints to Qarth and grasslands, and then Valyrian blood in Lys, possibly with a drop of Aerion Brightflame in his blood. If the latter is true you get a very ironic reversal: Aerion Brightflame was the mad sadistic prince who ended up killing himself by drinking wildfire, while Egg was the prince who grew up amongst commoners almost and a king who tried to rule for the people (rather than favoring lords). And then Varys as a descendant of Brightflame grows up as slave and thief and commoner plotting to get a king on the throne who was raised as a commoner who he intends to rule for the people, not lords, while Egg's descendant Aerys was as mad as Brightflame and both Egg and Aerys fooled around with wildfire with disastrous results. That said, the reverse parallel works too if Aegon is a descendant of Brightflame, and Varys doesn't have a drop of Targ blood. That he sports lilac and lavender doesn't have to mean he has Targ blood, just that he's a supporter or allied with Targs with lilac links, just as Littlefinger's plum vest with gold (yellow satin) makes him a parallel to the mercenary Ben Plumm, who switches to the side who offers him the most gold and/or chance to win.

Varys hates magic. Rhaegar was totally into prophecy and therefore magic. Aerys loved wildfire, which is also a magical product. Sounds good enough reasons for Varys imo to want to see them gone. He explains to Kevan what's wrong with Tommen - he wasn't raised amongst commoners, never having done a commoner's labour in his life.

Overall, Varys is written as a trickster-character. You've got villainous tricksters like Loki, and you've got tricksters like Br'er Rabbit, Anansi or Iktomi (the last two are spider tricksters) who are trickster-heroes. The latter are not in it for themselves or their personal revenge. They make trouble with the establishment, whether they are the gods or the nobility, even if the common people and the trickster pay for it. For cultures where trickster heroes arise in tales (such as Anansi with the Caribbean slaves) it's important to recognize that the commoners or slaves are fucked anyway, whether the trickster overturns the establishment or not. They're the dogs that always get kicked. The sole way there ever can be change is if the establishment is exposed.

As a trickster character Varys can be a heroic figure with an ideal in mind, despite it costing in the short term for the commoners. This is different with Littlefinger who's messing with establishment purely out of personal satisfaction and self-enrichment or empowerment. LF doesn't really want to change anything. He just wants to win the big cake

While I'm inclined to believe that he was born a slave in Lys, it must be said that Pycelle is the sole man who ever claimed this. We don't know how Pycelle knows this. It never comes up again. 

And it also has to be said that both Tyrion and Illyrio refer to Varys as being "from Myr". This is most likely a reminder to how Varys the trickster figure was metaphorically born in Myr because of his castration (just like the castration of the Unsullied makes them something they were not before, regardless of their actual origin). It's in Myr that Varys the thief is born, and thieving and guarding and stealing secrets as well as spreading rumors are typical trickster motifs. The world book though says that the origin of the Myrmen is "murky". And I think we can trasnfer this to Varys - his origins is a murky mixture. And I think it is very likely that George does not want to make Varys specifically anything, but a murky mixture. The castration of "root and stem" is a literary metaphor to cut Varys away and liberate him from his factual blood roots. What he became because of the castration is far more important to George I think than what blood he has in his veins.

Daemon Blackfyre and his children fled to Tyrosh, not Lys, BTW.

And/or it could be a worplay on "varies".

As for Serra: there is actually a Saera Targaryen who fled from Westeros across the narrow sea to Lys first, where she stayed for a while, before moving on to Volantis where she became the owner of a pleasure/pillow house. She was one the daughters of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne. LIke her older sister Maegelle she was promised to the Faith. Maegelle became a septa who helped treating children having caught greyscale, became infected herself and died of the disease (hmmm Serra died because of the Grey Plague, a "variant" of Greyscale). But Saera fled from the motherhouse while a novice, for unknown reasons. Her younger sister remained in the Red Keep, but was seduced by a singer and drowned herself in the Blackwater when she discovered she was with child. Alysane died not long after her favourite daughter's suicide. Meanwhile Jaehaerys in his old age confused young Alicent Hightower with his daughters and eventually came to believe she was Saera returned from across the narrow sea. The world book (that is Maester Yandel) explains she lived in Lys for a while and then moved on to Volantis, but it's not specifically stated that Jaehaerys ever knew where Saera had disappeared to, except across the narrow sea. In parallel with Hoster Tully thinking Cat is Lysa, and how Alysane died broken hearted over the youngest daughter, we may surmise that Jaehaerys felt eithre guilty towards Saera or that she was actually his favourite child.

Now, it's possible that Saera simply fled the motherhouse because she didn't want to become a septa, but since her elder sister did actually become a septa it's likely that Jaeharys would have welcomed Saera back in the Red Keep and that the Fiath would have let her go if she was that unwilling based on temperament alone. Arrangements could have been made... unless something happened to Saera that made her too ashamed to return to her father the king and her mother the queen. It's not impossible that she fled because she was secuded and preggers. Like her younger sister she would have been too ashamed, but of stronger character she could have decided to flee and prevent the king and queen the disgrace of having a novice daughter who was with child. If that happened then likely she stayed in Lys to deliver the child, but abandoned it to move on to Volantis. I suspect that it actually was Steffon Baratheon who discovered Saera's fate in Volantis as a brothel madam when he looked for a suitable bride for Rhaegar in Volantis. As he and his footmen inquired for a bride for a Targ, likely one of his footmen visited a brothel where they'd heard the story. Steffon likely wrote more (letters) than just about the fool he found for Stannis, and the info would have been passed on to the Citadel for Yandel to mention in the world book.

Anyway: we've got a once pregnant septa, a Serra, a Lyseni pillow house, Valyrian looks, death by grey plague combined between Serra and Aegon, all elements that return in Saera Targaryen and her sisters. George wrote about Saera Targaryen for the world book and the Rogue Prince deliberately imo to put her in there as a link to Serra from Lys. What the link is can only be speculated - literary or blood. And the sole reason she's overlooked imo is because she doesn't fit the "Find the Blackfyre! There must be a Blackfyre!" search. 

Lemore is also one who actually believes. She's a free spirit, but also quite a spiritual believer of the Faith.

Swimming naked should remind you of "water gardens" imo. Lemore has a link to Dorne. And no I absolutely do not think she's Ashara (Lemore is too old to be Ashara). That said, I don't think Lemore is actually Dornish at all, but she spent a lot of time there.

The identity of Lemore serves one major plot purpose - she's the one who'll make Arianne believe upon sight and her word that Aegon is the real thing. Arianne's mission to Storms End is to verify whether it's true that JonCon isn't dead and that Aegon is basically her cousin, Elia's son. There is no way that Aegon or JonCon can prove that to Arianne, unless they have a person with them that Arianne knows personally and will believe upon her word because of it.

tWoW Arianne chapters

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Of Aegon's inner circle Arianne so far has met Lysono Maar (the Lyseni spymaster of the GC) and Haldon Halfmaester. She doesn't recognize them, so she never knew them.

She is going to meet Lemore quite soon, but likely before meeting Aegon and JonCon (who'll probably be in the field against/with the Tyrells (depending on whether Mace will turn his cloak or not).

There is one septa who was pregnant once, who fits the age, that Arianne knows personally - Tyene's mother. She's originally from the Reach, but apparently lived in Dorne for a while. I speculate she was sent to Sunspear to serve the Martells and their newly born heirress Arianne, was seduced by Oberyn, remained in Dorne for a while. And while she loved her Tyene she also remained spiritually faithful to her Faith - hence why she sings the songs of the Faith to baby Tyene. Of all the Sand Snakes, Tyene is Arianne's favourite. She thinks of Tyene as the sister she never had. Tyene is the important beloved Sand Snake to Arianne. 

Arianne visited Tyene's mother once in the Reach, across the Mander. No timeframe is given for this, except that it was Arianne with 3 Sand Snakes. Arianne would have unlikely traveled to the Reach before turning 10. Both Tyene and Arianne were born in either 276 or 277 AC. So, the earliest vague guess you can have them travel to visit Tyene's mother would be in 286 or 287. When Arianne remembers vitising Tyene's mother with the 3 Sand Snakes (one would be Tyene herself) it isn't in the same passage as them trying to pull misschief. It seems a proper family visit. And if they were children, they would have been accompanied by Oberyn.

Oberyn is very good at using regular visits as a mask for other more personal reasons. Oberyn's main purpose could have been to ask Tyene's mother of a favor, but masking it as a visit for Tyene's sake, by taking Arianne and Tyene and 2 other Sand Snakes along. I suspect that Oberyn learned of the possible survival of Aegon through an Essosi sellsword. Oberyn fought with sellsword companies in Essos and even created his own company. So he has contacts in Essos, some of which may have joined the Golden Company, then the so called theft and death of JonCon. Oberyn would have known what type of guy JonCon was and just thought it all very fishy. Somehow he got wind of the JonCon-Aegon plot and he wanted it verified imo. And he wanted someone to infiltrate JonCon's forming group. 

Because of her pregnancy Tyene's mother would have been put out of the motherhouse. Because of her spiritual calling though she unlikely agreed to be married to some lord's son. Here was her chance to actually be a septa in spirit without embarassing anyone. And so "for Oberyn" she was brought into contact with Toyne (through Oberyn's contacts) and thus introduced to JonCon's group. That would be the year 287 or 288, when Aegon officially would be about 5 years old, the time that JonCon was recruited by Varys to rear Aegon.

Because of the visit, Arianne would recognize Lemore at first sight. And if Lemore reveals to her, as Tyene's mother, how she served Oberyn's wishes, and assures Arianne that she believes Aegon to be Elia's son, then Arianne will send the letter "dragon!" to Doran the same day, for sure. 

There's only one minor issue - Tyene has blond hair, and she must have that of her mother. But Tyene's mother may indeed be dying her hair. And in fact the age that Tyrion remarks on for Lemore suggests that she is dying her hair. A brown haired woman in her 40s would sport grey hairs, but we have no mention of Lemore sporting grey hair. Only women I know in their 40s without grey hairs dye it. And no, taking a shower or going swimming doesn't wash out the dye instantly, only gradually. Lemore has her own private quarter on the Shy Maid where she can dye her hair brown as much and as often as she likes without anyone knowing it. 

Wow! That was super insightful and I really appreciate it. A large part of this theory grew out of dissatisfaction with the usual King's blood explanation for Varys' castration that you tend to see with the Blackfyre theory, so I was trying to consider it from a different angle. However you are totally right that the Unsullied castration is very similar! I didn't make the connection before, so thanks for pointing that out for me. The information about Saera Targaryen is also really awesome. You've definitely given me a lot to think about and I really appreciate your feedback! My question is this: Doran Martell seems to have thrown in with Viserys. Do you think Oberyn planted Tyene's mother with Aegon as part of his brother's plan, or without knowledge of his brother's plan? 

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Makk said:

I read your post but why would she need to dye her hair? If she did have some distinctive Valaryian/Lyseni platinum or golden blonde hair there is a reason, but with any other hair that is not linked with hiding a (fake) Targaryen why bother?

Why does Jon Con bother based on your argument? He's a ginger, not silver-gold, and everybody else on the Shy Maid actually knows who he is.

Tyene's mother was still a noble woman, and may want to be extra cautious, just as others, such as JonCon (and Haldon), and may want the "wrong" color of hair, because while she hardly would have been the sole soiled septa ever, there aren't that many, and if JonCon or Toyne or Varys has someone investigate Lemore they might discover who she is (which is not the intent if you're an infiltrant).

George also gives us a hint of the choice of Young Griff's dye (a lie) - in memory of his Tyroshi mother. Dark brown would be the dye if his mother was Elia Martell. Obviously not the choice that Young Griff and Griff, but the possible choice of Lemore.

3 hours ago, Makk said:

You don't know what ethnicity she is, but quite likely yes she is. We have golden skin and brown (disputed) hair to go on.

Golden in the sunlight. Living on a boat does tend to keep you tanned all year round, even if that is not your ethnicity.

There are actually 2 Rhoynish on the Shy Maid. Tyrion recognizes their ethnicity. He also met Oberyn and other noblemen of Rhoynish descent and entertained them personally. And yet, Tyrion never even considers the notion that she may be of Rhoynish ethnicity?

BTW Rhoynish ethnicity is not a good argument if you believe she's Ashara - the Daynes are Stoney Dornes, and have little to no Rhoynish ethnicity.

3 hours ago, Makk said:

Googling what age do people start going grey reveals that 50% of the population has about 50% grey hair by the time they are 50. Normally, grey hairs make their appearance for the first time in mid-thirties in those who have fair skin with blonde hair like Caucasians

That makes it very hard to claim that the chance that a brown haired Caucasian woman in her 40s doesn't have grey hair.

[sweetsunray]

46 minutes ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

Do you think Oberyn planted Tyene's mother with Aegon as part of his brother's plan, or without knowledge of his brother's plan? 

Without his knowledge. Initially he may not have been convinced himself whether it was true, nor was it certain that Aegon may survive. Kids on boats have a chance of drowning. Hmmmm Lemore so loves to swim, right. Basically, I think he wanted to spare Doran from crushed hope. It's not as if Doran would dare to intervene on Aegon's behalf, until the right time.

[Makk]

13 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Why does Jon Con bother based on your argument? He's a ginger, not silver-gold, and everybody else on the Shy Maid actually knows who he is.

Tyene's mother was still a noble woman, and may want to be extra cautious, just as others, such as JonCon (and Haldon), and may want the "wrong" color of hair, because while she hardly would have been the sole soiled septa ever, there aren't that many, and if JonCon or Toyne or Varys has someone investigate Lemore they might discover who she is (which is not the intent if you're an infiltrant).

I can't even see where you are coming from here. Jon Connington is infinitely more infamous than Tyene Sands mother and he had just faked his dishonorable displacement as leader of the golden company. Plus he was also posing as someones father who looks nothing like him, so drawing some similarity, or at least hiding the contrary, is an obvious move. Now give me a reason for Tyene Sand to conceal herself and think that she needs to dye her hair?

14 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Golden in the sunlight. Living on a boat does tend to keep you tanned all year round, even if that is not your ethnicity.

There are actually 2 Rhoynish on the Shy Maid. Tyrion recognizes their ethnicity. He also met Oberyn and other noblemen of Rhoynish descent and entertained them personally. And yet, Tyrion never even considers the notion that she may be of Rhoynish ethnicity?0

BTW Rhoynish ethnicity is not a good argument if you believe she's Ashara - the Daynes are Stoney Dornes, and have little to no Rhoynish ethnicity.

I think olive skin is quite likely. The description certainly doesn't preclude that. Given her faith it is likely she is from Westeros but many from Westeros do have Rhoynish ancestory. And no, I don't think she is Ashara Dayne, the description certainly doesn't match what we have heard about her, and there is no known (or logical) reason for her to be on the boat (or alive). Dornish is still quite possible though.

26 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

That makes it very hard to claim that the chance that a brown haired Caucasian woman in her 40s doesn't have grey hair.

Again, the description doesn't say she has absolutely no grey in her hair. It says she has a dark brown lock. If she has predominantly brown hair I would NOT expect Tyrion to say " whilst a handsome septa in a soft white robe stepped through the cabin door and pushed a lock of dark brown hair, which had a few greying strands around her temples, from her eyes." The fact he guesses her age in her 40's indicates he doesn't think there is anything particularly unusual with her hair.

[ravenous reader]

13 minutes ago, Makk said:

Again, the description doesn't say she has absolutely no grey in her hair. It says she has a dark brown lock. If she has predominantly brown hair I would NOT expect Tyrion to say " whilst a handsome septa in a soft white robe stepped through the cabin door and pushed a lock of dark brown hair, which had a few greying strands around her temples, from her eyes." The fact he guesses her age in her 40's indicates he doesn't think there is anything particularly unusual with her hair.

LOL.  Prepare yourself for another 10 pages of arguing about hair color -- the pedantic deadlock!

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Makk said:

Now give me a reason for Tyene Sand to conceal herself and think that she needs to dye her hair?

I already gave the reason: she's an infiltrant of Oberyn, and only there wouldn't be that many soiled septas, let alone high profile soiled septas who are the mother of one of Oberyn's Sand Snakes. She's hiding her identity from JonCon.

On the "lock": see previousposts. No point in repeating myself.

@ravenous reader It seems you've got an issue with me for several months, ever since our discussion about LS's glimmering eyes. That's fine, but I don't appreciate the passive aggressive snarkiness.

[ravenous reader]

@sweetsunray At least you could appreciate the pun on 'deadlock' -- get it,  the endless discussion back and forth about the meaning of the 'lock' of dark brown hair!  

[sweetsunray]

Yes, I get the deadlock reference. I also understand the word pedantic and the posting of a veiled hint to one poster about another poster.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

On 26/6/2017 at 6:47 AM, Rhae_Valarie said:

Varys and his sister Serra were born in Lys as the descendents of Aerion Brighflame and as the last Blackfyres. Varys was castrated in some mega King's blood sacrifice that ended the Blackfyre line and left him mutilated. Serra married Illyrio (who I am willing to bet has some Valyrian blood somewhere, it isn't too uncommon in the free cities) and had a boy. Though he technically isn't a Blackfyre, he is still descended through the female line, which was enough to get him the support of the Golden Company. When King's Landing was sacked, Varys and Illyrio realized they had a perfect opportunity to disguise the baby as Aegon (since considering the manner in which the real Aegon was killed, no one could prove that they hadn't switched the babies, like Varys claimed). Serra, not wanting to be separated from her son, faked her death and assumed the guise of a Septa and dyed her hair, so that she could remain close to him without exposing his true identity. Which means that:

Maester Aemon and Jon Snow are the Dragons old and young.

Dany and fAegon are the dragons true and false.

Varys and Serra/Septa Lemore are the dragons bright and dark.

Thanks for reading! I repeatedly said that I didnt include the expansive evidence for the Blackfyre and Brightfyre theories because they are so well know in the forums. However, if there is something specific that is unclear or that I should have noted, please let me know and I'll do my best to clear it up and show where I'm coming from. I'd love to hear your thoughts and feedback!!

 

I partially agree to this idea.I believe that Varys and Serra were the last remnants of Brightflame and Blackfyre lines. Illyrio was in a same way the last from the Bittersteel/Calia Blackfyre line. Illyrio married Serra and had a son, Aegon. 

As direct Blackfyre invasions on Westeros proved to be failures, they seized the opportunity to present Serra's son as Aegon Targaryen.

The boyish clothes in Illyrio's house, the way Illyrio speaks of Aegon before Tyrion leaves Pentos,GC supporting a Targaryen despite fighting for years against them support this. 

But I doubt Serra is Lemore.I buy more that Lemore is Tyene's mother.