king in the north, rivers and stone

[LordScattergood10]

As we all know at the very least half the lords of the vale including the most powerful lord Bronze Yohn Royce wanted to join robb in his war. I think it's pretty safe to assume considering the way lords and knights follow the popular trends and lords that if the vale declared for robb that all the vale would have eagerly joined and I don't think any vale lords would rebel. 

My real question is that would the vale lords bend the knee and declare robb stark king of the mountain and vale like the river lords did? I believe that they would have for a few reasons. Firstly because that just seems to be the way westeros is; in a popular trend they would have bent just because it seemed to be the thing to do.

My second reason and in my opinion the actual reason why I believe they would have declared robb stark king is because the current arryn situation. Robert arryn and lysa tully do not inspire any kind of loyalty or promise. In declaring for robb they make him absolutely powerful enough to win his war and pretty much do as he pleases. Yes the lannisters have the wealth and power of highgarden but the reach's army only faught one battle and hardly battle tested unlike Robb Starks host that has faught countless battles at this point. Also the reach's army is mostly a peasant levy. The lannisters are a spent force. Tywins army is mostly intact minus the losses from the 3 battles it was in but Jaimes army destroyed and they lost the force under ser stafford. 

Robb Stark just before the red wedding at least 12k northmen alone if not even more at hand not to mention the obvious reserves back in the north. He has at least 10k rivermen to call on maybe more. If the vale join robb stark with the legendary knights of the vale we have all heard so much about since the story began with whatever force they add I just can't see Robb losing. He barely lost without the vale. 

Anyway what do you ppl think would the vale have declared for robb stark or declared for their own independence? Again just considering Robb Starks popularity already for his battle prowess and the fact that the north and the riverlands already crowned him I can't see the vale lords not jumping on the bandwagon. Robert arryn and lysa being the key reason why for the obvious reasons no one is ignorant to. 

[Bernie Mac]

7 minutes ago, LordScattergood10 said:

As we all know at the very least half the lords of the vale including the most powerful lord Bronze Yohn Royce wanted to join robb in his war.

Some wanted to fight the Lannisters, after Lysa told them that they were responsible for Killing Lord Arryn  ( as well as the insult of Jaime being named Warden of the East). That is not the same as supporting Robb, bit wanting to attack a common enemy. 

 

There are many reasons why Robb was named King of the Riverlands. 

• He was half Tully
• He was betrothed to a Riverland bride
• He had actually saved many of their Lords when he rescued Riverrun
• The Riverlords needed him to stay of they wanted to defend themselves from the Crown
• The Riverlands lack a real established royal family like the North and the Vale

These conditions do not apply to the Vale Lords. They have had a history of being rivals to the North and were not in need of Robb saving their ass. In the books the Riverlords declaring Robb King has some logic behind it, the show having the Vale Lords save Jon's ass and then declare him King is highly illogical. 

[Graydon Hicks]

12 minutes ago, LordScattergood10 said:

As we all know at the very least half the lords of the vale including the most powerful lord Bronze Yohn Royce wanted to join robb in his war. I think it's pretty safe to assume considering the way lords and knights follow the popular trends and lords that if the vale declared for robb that all the vale would have eagerly joined and I don't think any vale lords would rebel. 

My real question is that would the vale lords bend the knee and declare robb stark king of the mountain and vale like the river lords did? I believe that they would have for a few reasons. Firstly because that just seems to be the way westeros is; in a popular trend they would have bent just because it seemed to be the thing to do.

My second reason and in my opinion the actual reason why I believe they would have declared robb stark king is because the current arryn situation. Robert arryn and lysa tully do not inspire any kind of loyalty or promise. In declaring for robb they make him absolutely powerful enough to win his war and pretty much do as he pleases. Yes the lannisters have the wealth and power of highgarden but the reach's army only faught one battle and hardly battle tested unlike Robb Starks host that has faught countless battles at this point. Also the reach's army is mostly a peasant levy. The lannisters are a spent force. Tywins army is mostly intact minus the losses from the 3 battles it was in but Jaimes army destroyed and they lost the force under ser stafford. 

Robb Stark just before the red wedding at least 12k northmen alone if not even more at hand not to mention the obvious reserves back in the north. He has at least 10k rivermen to call on maybe more. If the vale join robb stark with the legendary knights of the vale we have all heard so much about since the story began with whatever force they add I just can't see Robb losing. He barely lost without the vale. 

Anyway what do you ppl think would the vale have declared for robb stark or declared for their own independence? Again just considering Robb Starks popularity already for his battle prowess and the fact that the north and the riverlands already crowned him I can't see the vale lords not jumping on the bandwagon. Robert arryn and lysa being the key reason why for the obvious reasons no one is ignorant to. 

thats a very interesting thought, in fact i havent seen any fanfiction to indicate that someone else has tried think it out either. i do think that the vale would have joined, if lysa arryn hadnt been so, uhm, crazy protective of robert. maybe if brynden or robb himself had gone to the vale, and called for alliance before its assembled lords, they might have bent the knee, as long as he kept an arryn as lord of the eryie , is that how you spell it? with his blood ties to lysa and robin, as well as being the son of ned stark, who had spent much of his youth fostering in the vale, i think many of the vale lords would have been pulled to him in the same way that riverlords were. and he's also line of the first men, and there are several very very old first men families and houses in the vale, like the royces, so there would also be a sort of cultural pull to side with a first men king after so long under andal or valyrian rule.

but the main obstacle would be getting around lysa. she kept the vale armies home to protect her sweetrobin. man, i cant help feeling that maybe robert arryn is not the son of jon, but of petyr baelish. i know there no real proof, just some circumspect speculation, but its a feeling that just wont stop nudging me in the head.

and even if he could convince lysa, the moment petyr came to eryie, she would switch to whatever side petyr wanted to support.

but if lysa or petyr wasn't an issue, yes i can see the vale swearing to house stark. would make for a very nice power block, controlling the northeastern chunk of westeros.

[LordScattergood10]

Wanting to fight the lannisters because of the blame for the murder of jon arryn and the wardenship was originally why they wanted to fight but sansa clearly states in feast that the vale lords led by bronze yohn that they were on "the brink of open rebellion against lysa over her refusal to join robb in his war." That isn't the exact quote but it's something like that.

[LordScattergood10]

I just firmly believe that with the way the lords and knights of westeros hop on bandwagons and what seems to be the cool thing that moment that if robb could have gotten a chance to get to the vale and speak to the lords they would jump at the chance. Clearly the arryns are keeping the eyrie and lords paramount of the vale but with robbs popularity and reputation as a battle commander lysa in my honest opinion would be pushed to the side. Also it would still be robert arryn being so sickly and only a matter of time until Harold hardyng becomes Harold arryn who would jump at.the chance to sit with someone like robb stark and feed off of his reputation.

[Graydon Hicks]

its kind of hard to determine just what kind of troops the vale would have been able to commit to robb, if he was able to persuade them to join. the vale seems to have this policy of isolationism. i think the only time in the last 100 or so years they actually went to war against others was the RR. they seem to prefer to remain safe behind the mountains of the moon, so i dont think we have seen much desciption of their forces, beyond the enigmatic "Knights of the Vale".

[Lord Vance II]

Shorts answer, no. As others have said, there just wasn't as much incentive for the Vale to declare Robb their king. If there was a marriage deal to be made, maybe. But Robb can't very well marry off the sisters he doesn't have and even if he hadn't promised to marry a Frey, what would he do, marry Lysa? Myranda Royce?

But, meta wise, I think GRRM kept the Vale out to preserve a large, fresh army for the end stages of the story. The North doesn't have the men to fight the Others, and none of the engaged armies are sending help North. I think Sansa will do Littlefinger's plan (with or without him), marry Harry, raise the Vale to retake her home and arrive at the 2nd Battle for the Dawn with tens of thousands of the freshest troops in Westeros at her back. To a lesser degree I think the same about the Manderly forces. 

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

The Vale knights wanted to fight with Robb against the Lannisters, not for Robb.  Theres a difference . If the Vale did join the war, they most likely would've declared their independence.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Maybe if Bronn lost his duel and Lysa threw Tyrion out of the moon door the Vale would have felt compelled to fight the Lannisters with Robb as an ally fearing future Lannister retribution. But unless Harrold didn't exist and Robert Arryn was born a healthy female for Robb Stark to marry I don't see the Vale kneeling to Robb. There would really be no reason too.

[Bernie Mac]

11 hours ago, LordScattergood10 said:

Wanting to fight the lannisters because of the blame for the murder of jon arryn and the wardenship was originally why they wanted to fight but sansa clearly states in feast that the vale lords led by bronze yohn that they were on "the brink of open rebellion against lysa over her refusal to join robb in his war." That isn't the exact quote but it's something like that.

Robb is not mentioned, nor is half the Vale wanting to support Robb. Here is the exact quote;

Yohn Royce has been stirring up all sorts of trouble, demanding that I call my banners and go to war. And the others all swarm around me, Hunter and Corbray and that dreadful Nestor Royce, all wanting to wed me and take my son to ward, but none of them truly love me.

Off course this would have been around the time that Royce learnt of the death of his second son by the hands of Loras, so he would have extra incentive to go to war. It should also be noted that of the two nobles who took part in the war of the five kings, Littlefinger and Robar Royce, neither supported Robb. 

And then of course there is GRRM's own words on the subject and their relationship to Ned;

The lords of the Vale are numerous. As with any large group, their views vary. "Brothers" overstates the case, but certainly Ned made friends during his years in the Eyrie... so did Robert, however, so some of the Vale houses would be just as well disposed toward Baratheon as toward Stark.Do some of the them want to join Robb? Certainly. Most notably Bronze Yohn Royce. Others, however, want no part of the war, and some may even favor the other contenders.

Lysa likely prevented the Vale from going to civil war as the Vale would have been divided. Lord Yohn apart, Littlefinger has shown how easily the Vale lords can be bribed and the Crown, with their wealth and offers of lands, may have won just as much support as Robb did if not more.