Disliking Tyrion Lannister

[zandru]

9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I was getting pretty tired of all his pathetic lost ADWD stuff then Penny comes along and this old drunk enjoys performing summersaults, making the sailors smile and to make Penny happy

Thanks for adding this! A lot of people apparently hate the Penny character because they think she's "boring." Nonsense! As you pointed out, she brings Tyrion back to life. It's not just him now. Tyrion even takes Jorah Mormont under his wing, and considering how Jorah has mistreated him, that's a pretty big thing, even if you assume Tyrion is only doing it because he hopes to take advantage of Mormont's martial abilities. If the Khaleesi had seen the way Mormont behaved when he was around Tyrion, she'd have never loved her old bear.

Penny gives Tyrion an inside look of what it's like to be a dwarf in society, but as a way of trying to help him fit in, not because she's whining or demanding sympathy. He'd always thought he was ill treated - but in reality, he had no idea. These experiences are helping to snap Tyrion out of his suicidal alcoholic haze and bringing back the highly educated, clever dwarf we came to know in Game of Thrones.

[Curled Finger]

You give me hope for the fans, @zandru.  It speaks volumes about your character that you discern this development.   It's easy to miss, just as it's easy to dismiss Penny as boring.   He needs to lead, even if only the man who kidnapped and beat him, the dwarf girl who wanted him killed, a dog and a pig.   Tyrion has a hero complex whether he realizes it or not.  

[Lord Wraith]

Both Jaime and Tyrion are some of the most divisive and complex characters in the series. I love they're gradually becoming more like the other. Tyrion is the goodish Lannister who slowly becomes more darker character while Jaime is the bad Lannister who is coming lighter in his quest for redemption.

Already killed his father and already planning to finish the rest of the family.

Quote

The lords of the Seven Kingdoms did make rather much of their sigils, Tyrion had to admit. "Very well," he conceded. "A Lannister is not a lion. Yet I am still my father's son, and Jaime and Cersei are mine to kill."

Tyrion and probably Dany are two character who started the series as heroes but will end the series as villains. Or at least that is how I see their character arcs going.

[HaeSuse]

15 hours ago, Tianzi said:

So what makes him 'less' misogynistic than them?

I mean sure, he'd shine if compared to Randyll Tarly, but what else?

1) The way he treated Sansa during their marriage. 

2) His feelings toward Tysha.

3) The way he treats Penny.

4) His lack of feeling that "women should be in the kitchen, barefoot, pregnant, silent".

5) His interactions with Cat.

6) Even the way he treats his whores is wholly different and more compassionate than the way other men do. (aside from murdering Shae, of course).

[The Ned's Little Girl]

53 minutes ago, HaeSuse said:

6) Even the way he treats his whores is wholly different and more compassionate than the way other men do. (aside from murdering Shae, of course).

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?

His murdering Shae is HUGE. It shows a serious lack of compassion and it shows that lack was always the case with Tyrion. His "compassion" was surface-level all along and the "wholly different" way her treated her was to make her pretend that they were in a loving relationship, that other men wouldn't bother trying to do because they understand the true nature of the "relationship" between a whore and her client.

The only thing Shae did wrong was to finally shatter Tyrion's own illusions about his own compassion, to make as clear as possible to him that she always was who she was, not who he imagined she was. That's what got her killed: Tyrion's lack of compassion toward her.

[zandru]

16 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

His murdering Shae is HUGE. It shows a serious lack of compassion and it shows that lack was always the case with Tyrion.

Now, wait a minute! Tyrion was fine with Shae - until she perjured herself in court to testify against him, also putting out false tales designed to shame him publically. Her testimony got Tyrion a big laugh from the assembled court, and not the good kind. Tyrion was enraged that, after all he'd tried to do for her (at least, in his own mind) she had betrayed him. Moreover, her "testimony" was conclusive for giving him a death sentence. And THEN, after an escape facilitated by his beloved older brother Jaime, who confessed that the love of Tyrion's life really was his love, and not a hired whore, but their father had made Jaime tell Tyrion that lie ... Tyrion finds Shae literally in his own sanctimonious whore-hating father's bed and wearing his "Hand" necklace, no less.

This wasn't a coldly calculated murder. It was the classic "crime of passion" in which Tyrion, enraged beyond thought and control, killed his former lover. He's calmer by the time he kills his father.

Killing Shae was not at all typical behavior for Tyrion. It doesn't reveal much about his "compassion" or his "character"; it seems pretty understandable, although still wrong.

[Lady Char]

I love Tyrion's character, but I do have issues with how most fans seem to see him as more of a protagonist than I do. Like other posters here, I acknowledge that Tyrion has been on a downhill path when it comes to morality - and though I do believe he has some strength and greatness left in him yet to come, I believe his story is set up to be a rather tragic one.

[Lady Char]

50 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

The only thing Shae did wrong was to finally shatter Tyrion's own illusions about his own compassion, to make as clear as possible to him that she always was who she was, not who he imagined she was. That's what got her killed: Tyrion's lack of compassion toward her.

I agree that Tyrion has some emotional masochism when it comes to women. It absolutely has to do with the childhood trauma Tywin inflicted on him with his lady love. His insecurity will forever be tied to this abuse. By repeating in his mind that only whore will want him, and then only for his gold - he is absolving himself slightly from his guilt of what he did to Tysha - that on some small level he believes some part of it was justifiable. Tyrion always had things anger in him, and was almost looking for an excuse to outlet it. This is what lends us empathy towards Shae - but I also don't think its meant to expunge her from any blame.

[HaeSuse]

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?

His murdering Shae is HUGE. It shows a serious lack of compassion and it shows that lack was always the case with Tyrion. His "compassion" was surface-level all along and the "wholly different" way her treated her was to make her pretend that they were in a loving relationship, that other men wouldn't bother trying to do because they understand the true nature of the "relationship" between a whore and her client.

The only thing Shae did wrong was to finally shatter Tyrion's own illusions about his own compassion, to make as clear as possible to him that she always was who she was, not who he imagined she was. That's what got her killed: Tyrion's lack of compassion toward her.

 

Shae also lied in front of 'gods and men', knowing that it would get Tyrion killed, and knowing the truth that he didn't do it, and knowing that she could potentially save him from his fate. Sure, it was under threat of pain, torture and death. But, killing someone who lied in court, directly leading to your own death sentence, ain't half bad. Do we, as a modern society, condemn the man who kills his daughter's rapist, and say "he shouldn't have done it"? Sure. But don't we also say ".... but, gods be good, I'd probably have done the same."? And that's only touching on the false condemnation and perjury. We could also discuss that she's now sleeping with his own father, the man who is responsible for having raised Tyrion. The same father who emotionally abused him his entire life, and who made a point of chiding, deriding, chastising and punishing (brutally, no less) Tyrion over his own taste for a woman's pleasures. And we could also toss into the scales of justice the fact that Tyrion had bent over backwards, risking is own hide time and time again, trying to hide Shae's identity, and protect her from Cersei's and Tywin's ire and long lashing whips.

 

I'm sorry, but while I agree that killing Shae was wrong, I don't find it as black and white as you do. This was not Lincoln and Booth. This was a thousand shades of gray, as GRRM always makes everything in his books. Tyrion was delusional about the nature of whores. You are right. And he is to blame, as is Jamie and Tywin, with their little Tysha charade. This is quite possibly the defining characteristic of the character. Perhaps it would've been "kinder" (and maybe less "misogynistic"?) to just take her into his tent that first night, have his way with her, pay her, and then kick her out. But would she have agreed? I think not. She knew the game she played was deadly and dangerous. And she knew Tyrion had strange perceptions of their relationship. She was not stupid. She was playing the game, as well. 

Instead, in his own little way, he treated her like a person, not just a whore. He never regarded her as less than high lords and ladies, except in so much as he knew he could never marry her, and retain his Lannister benefits. If he thought for a second he could've married her, kept her as a true and loving wife, removed her from her profession, and remain a player in the game, he would have. He couldn't though, not while Tywin lived. Not while Cersei lived. And, yes, he was as invested in the game as anyone else, as much as he was loathe to admit it. And so was Shae.
 

I appreciate your feminist perspective on it, I do. I'm a card carrying member of NOW, myself, and am raising an amazing young feminist daughter, and 3 amazing young feminist sons. But I just think your views are a little one-sided, and not taking into account the full picture of the man, the woman, the situation and the circumstances. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Now, wait a minute! Tyrion was fine with Shae - until she perjured herself in court to testify against him, also putting out false tales designed to shame him publically. Her testimony got Tyrion a big laugh from the assembled court, and not the good kind. Tyrion was enraged that, after all he'd tried to do for her (at least, in his own mind) she had betrayed him. Moreover, her "testimony" was conclusive for giving him a death sentence. And THEN, after an escape facilitated by his beloved older brother Jaime, who confessed that the love of Tyrion's life really was his love, and not a hired whore, but their father had made Jaime tell Tyrion that lie ... Tyrion finds Shae literally in his own sanctimonious whore-hating father's bed and wearing his "Hand" necklace, no less.

This wasn't a coldly calculated murder. It was the classic "crime of passion" in which Tyrion, enraged beyond thought and control, killed his former lover. He's calmer by the time he kills his father.

Killing Shae was not at all typical behavior for Tyrion. It doesn't reveal much about his "compassion" or his "character"; it seems pretty understandable, although still wrong.

This is a really interesting post, because it perfectly encapsulates exactly why Tyrion is such an amazingly-written character. He has so many characteristics that make it easy for readers to see his life in the same way he does, to gloss over (in a way) all the really horrible things he does.

Shae "perjured herself in court to testify against him, also putting out false tales designed to shame him publically". Of course she did! Her whole life is in service to people more powerful than her, who make her do things they want her to do, either by paying her to or by threatening her to. Sure, she always had a choice to defy them and suffer the consequences, but how many people really have the courage to actually do that? 

"Tyrion was enraged that, after all he'd tried to do for her (at least in his own mind) she had betrayed him." All true. On the other hand, what he'd tried to do for her only was in his own mind. It certainly didn't show in the reality of his actions. Looking at what he actually did - as opposed to what he thought he did - tells a very different story. His father had specifically forbade him from bringing Shae to Kings Landing; he did it anyway and moreover didn't even inform Shae of that so to give her a chance to rethink the idea.

Then Tyrion rented a nice house for her and gave her clothes and jewels. But at the same time, he made her stay there, not go out, not see anybody, not have any friends. He had the one guy who visited her killed. If they were actually in a relationship like he was pretending, why couldn't he take her out publicly? Or live with her in the house? Or marry her?

Then, when his father arrived in the city, he took all that away from her and put her to work as a servant, although still expecting her to put out for him whenever he wanted. Even though he was not paying her and had, indeed, taken away from her all that he had paid her already (the house, the clothes, the jewels). So when he finally warned her that staying with him was dangerous for her, he had also removed from her the means to escape (her payment).

And Shae could only have "betrayed him" if they actually were in the relationship that Tyrion imagined and pretended they were in. They weren't. Indeed, he had reneged on the agreement that they actually did have (by taking away her payments) and as such it could be argued that she didn't owe him anything, least of all loyalty.

"Killing Shae was not at all typical behavior for Tyrion." Correct, but only because he hadn't killed anyone before. But IMO it does reveal a great deal about his lack of compassion and lack of empathy. I already made my point earlier about how Shae's great crime against Tyrion was conclusively shattering his own illusions about her and that's something for which I mainly hold Tyrion responsible, not her.

It isn't just Shae, either. Remember when Tyrion mocked the corpse of Masha Heddle, the innkeeper who refused him a room because she didn't have any? Does a compassionate or empathetic person do that?

"...it seems pretty understandable, although still wrong." You've summed up Tyrion perfectly. He does so many things that are so very, very wrong - yet all of them are still very, very understandable. He is a brilliant and brilliantly-fascinating character.

(Please don't think that I'm accusing you of making excuses for Tyrion or glossing over his faults. I really do think you nailed him but also nailed the very complex way that readers have to regard him and think about him. I appreciate your post greatly.)

 

[Sigella]

4 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

1) The way he treated Sansa during their marriage. 

2) His feelings toward Tysha.

3) The way he treats Penny.

4) His lack of feeling that "women should be in the kitchen, barefoot, pregnant, silent".

5) His interactions with Cat.

6) Even the way he treats his whores is wholly different and more compassionate than the way other men do. (aside from murdering Shae, of course).

1 Making a a 12-13 year old girl undress in front of him and then exposing himself is ok behaviour? Really?

2 What he helped the guards do to Tysha is not really ok either.

3 He doesn't really treat her very good and we could argue that he used her to survive life as a poor unimportant dwarf.

4 No but he beds with slaves and his behaviour towards them is not ok either.

5 The way he shamed Cat on the Highroad + "I'm willing if she is".

6 The way he treats whores/slaves in Essos. Its just too offensive to be made up for with a personal history of being a good tipper.

 

Its funny how we all read stuff so very different, its quite fascinating.

 

[HoodedCrow]

Let's see. It's a medieval society. You've just reluctantly gotten married to a girl flowered, who also didn't want to wed. Such marriages are common. Her age is not uncommon.The girl is shy  and traumatized, but you are hoping she can accept you for the good you may do for her, and the alliance you hope to make, and accept your ugly appearance. She is a beauty and all the norms and laws say that you can bed her willing or no, and ,in fact, it's your duty to your family, society, and religion. Most of your experience is with whores. You ask your wife to take off her clothes, perhaps hoping she has a shred of curiosity or good spirits. You are turned on. She is not. You try to appeal to reason, and she tells you it's hopeless. In spite of intense motivation, you leave her alone.

[HaeSuse]

3 hours ago, zandru said:

Now, wait a minute! Tyrion was fine with Shae - until she perjured herself in court to testify against him, also putting out false tales designed to shame him publically. Her testimony got Tyrion a big laugh from the assembled court, and not the good kind. Tyrion was enraged that, after all he'd tried to do for her (at least, in his own mind) she had betrayed him. Moreover, her "testimony" was conclusive for giving him a death sentence. And THEN, after an escape facilitated by his beloved older brother Jaime, who confessed that the love of Tyrion's life really was his love, and not a hired whore, but their father had made Jaime tell Tyrion that lie ... Tyrion finds Shae literally in his own sanctimonious whore-hating father's bed and wearing his "Hand" necklace, no less.

This wasn't a coldly calculated murder. It was the classic "crime of passion" in which Tyrion, enraged beyond thought and control, killed his former lover. He's calmer by the time he kills his father.

Killing Shae was not at all typical behavior for Tyrion. It doesn't reveal much about his "compassion" or his "character"; it seems pretty understandable, although still wrong.

This. Precisely. Still a crime. Still not to be admired or praised. But, wholly understandable and, in my mind, forgivable, when placed in the greater cosmic scales.

[HaeSuse]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

1 Making a a 12-13 year old girl undress in front of him and then exposing himself is ok behaviour? Really?

2 What he helped the guards do to Tysha is not really ok either.

3 He doesn't really treat her very good and we could argue that he used her to survive life as a poor unimportant dwarf.

4 No but he beds with slaves and his behaviour towards them is not ok either.

5 The way he shamed Cat on the Highroad + "I'm willing if she is".

6 The way he treats whores/slaves in Essos. Its just too offensive to be made up for with a personal history of being a good tipper.

 

Its funny how we all read stuff so very different, its quite fascinating.

 

1) 12-13 year old girls were expected to marry and (gasp), yes, undress in front of their husbands, in this fictional realm. Not to mention, in our own real realm, during medieval (and even much more recent than that) era. There are still places on earth where this is 100% normal and expected. Is it okay? A different question entirely. My statement was that he compares favorably to the rest of westeros. Which he does. Since any other husband would have demanded her maidenhead. He did not. Is that not better? Are you claiming he would have been more "good" to demand she go through with it?

2) No it wasn't. He could've disinherited himself on the spot by defying his father. I agree. But to hold that entirely against him is absurd. That's my point. He could've excused himself from Westeros, the Lannister family, his friends, his brother, and everything he knew, and "have done the right thing". But, man, really? How many children would've done differently, given the same circumstances? Practically none. Maybe in the end, exactly none.

3) I'm not saying he treated Penny well. I'm saying he treated her better than everyone else who came into contact with her. Again, over and over, I'm not saying he's a saint. I'm saying, compare him to everyone else put in the same situation, and he comes out reasonably well in the balance. No one else even thinks Penny deserves thought, much less compassion, measured interactions, and intimacy.

4) Agreed. Again, same thing. Compare him to the rest of Essos, since that's where it is happening, and how does he look? Down right saintly.

5) Really? "I'm willing if she is?" This is something that would even go unnoticed today, in real Earth life. Matter of fact, more so, than medieval times. Go to a bar. You'll hear it, or something similar 1000 times a night. Is it okay? That's up to each individual. But to claim that a man shouldn't make explicit jokes with women, is backwards and insane.

6) Is it right? No. What other option does he have? Nothing left for him in Westeros. And in Essos, he is doing as Essos-ians do, as it were. Not good. I agree. 100%. But compared to the societal norm? He's practically Bernie Sanders rolled into Mohatma Gandhi. 

[HaeSuse]

23 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Let's see. It's a medieval society. You've just reluctantly gotten married to a girl flowered, who also didn't want to wed. Such marriages are common. Her age is not uncommon.The girl is shy  and traumatized, but you are hoping she can accept you for the good you may do for her, and the alliance you hope to make, and accept your ugly appearance. She is a beauty and all the norms and laws say that you can bed her willing or no, and ,in fact, it's your duty to your family, society, and religion. Most of your experience is with whores. You ask your wife to take off her clothes, perhaps hoping she has a shred of curiosity or good spirits. You are turned on. She is not. You try to appeal to reason, and she tells you it's hopeless. In spite of intense motivation, you leave her alone.

He's a monster! /sarcasm

[HaeSuse]

15 hours ago, zandru said:

Thanks for adding this! A lot of people apparently hate the Penny character because they think she's "boring." Nonsense! As you pointed out, she brings Tyrion back to life. It's not just him now. Tyrion even takes Jorah Mormont under his wing, and considering how Jorah has mistreated him, that's a pretty big thing, even if you assume Tyrion is only doing it because he hopes to take advantage of Mormont's martial abilities. If the Khaleesi had seen the way Mormont behaved when he was around Tyrion, she'd have never loved her old bear.

Penny gives Tyrion an inside look of what it's like to be a dwarf in society, but as a way of trying to help him fit in, not because she's whining or demanding sympathy. He'd always thought he was ill treated - but in reality, he had no idea. These experiences are helping to snap Tyrion out of his suicidal alcoholic haze and bringing back the highly educated, clever dwarf we came to know in Game of Thrones.

And hopefully, they can be his saving grace and redemption.  I'd hate to see his arc continue downwards. There is time yet left for him to end on top, and I sure hope he does.

[sweetsunray]

I'm with the Ned's Little Girl. I think Tyrion is capable of goodness. He wants to be good and in his mind he thinks of himself as the "good guy". But simultaneously is enormously resentful of people when they don't "reward" him for it.

Without Tyrion, despite all the wildfire, Cersei would have fucked up the defense of KL and Tywin could never have surprised KL. But he expects Cersei to be grateful to him and Tywin to reward him by letting him stay on as Hand - Cersei who doesn't have an ounce of love in her bones and Tywin who never intended to let Tyrion keep on being the Hand, once Tywin's time in the field was done. He was being the "good guy" for the wrong people. He helps an abominable person who he knows is a fraud like Joffrey stay on the throne. He uses a treaty party to free Jaime masked under the pretense of returning Ned's bones, without the ancestral sword.

He tells Sansa he'll send her home, yet doesn't. No, instead he marries her, and keeps it secret from her until an hour before her marriage, WHILE informing Shae long before of it. That's just, in one word, twisted. He endangers Shae AND Sansa by making her Sansa's handmaid, just so he could fuck her, despite already one innocent whore having been lashed for his unwillingness and inability to let go of Shae out of spite against his father. He doesn't take Shae to KL for Shae, but to spite his father. He's using Shae, because she gratifies his ego.

Tyrion isn't kind to Sansa out of empathy for her. He pretends to be kind to her in the hope she'll eventually give him what he wants from her. He wants her to reward him with sex for not forcing himself onto her. That's twisted. We know this, because he resents her mightily for not sleeping with him. He betrayed his promise to send her to her family, by marrying her just so he could be lord of WF. And he never ever truly admits this about himself. And then hates her for running away and leaving him by himself to deal with being accused of Joffrey's murder. His kindness is not genuine, but pretense to get into her panties. And no, comparing his choices and actions to monsters such as Ramsay, Cersei or the Mountain does not make him a good person. It just doesn't make him a monster.

Tysha? Even if Tysha was a whore, he saw her being raped by a whole garrison and himself. Ok, so he was very young, and the trauma could have skewed his perception at the time. But he's effing 27 when he learns from Jaime that Tysha being a whore was a lie. And only then does he regard what happened and what he did as "rape". So, for 14 years, well after he became an adult, not once did Tyrion consider what was obviously a gang-rape of Tysha as wrong, but something she deserved. It wasn't "rape" in his mind as long as she was a whore. And we see this again when he rapes the slave at Selhorys.

Catelyn? He knows or suspects that Bran didn't just fall from that tower from the get go. He slaps Joffrey for not pretending to be sympathetic to the Starks over it. But oh my, if the distraught mother, who also saved that same son while in a coma from an assassin with a dagger, suspects him of being behind it, he's just a mean, petty, spiteful guy talking crass to her. Her wounds are still healing on her hands.  

And that pettiness of him is often there without any actual reason. Can anyone explain to me what Benjen ever did to Tyrion? But for some reason Tyrion hopes Benjen suffers and regrets lending Tyrion his bearskin. WTF is that about?

There is only one period where I actually sort of like Tyrion and that's on the Shy Maid. It's the sole time he overcomes his pettiness, because he genuinely starts to like the people on the boat, and he doesn't mind walking around in makeshift motley or having them laugh at his carthweels. He's still cunning and snarky at times, but without resentment. It's no coincidence imo that he calls himself Hugor Hill then - he's genuinely a good person, without expecting a cookie for his good behavior. Penny's grief over her brother is also the first time he acknowledges how innocent people are getting killed partly because of him. By killing Tywin he gave Cersei free reign to make the decree of a lordhship for any murderer who brigns her Tyrion's head.

So, overall, while in many ways Tyrion is even more dark in aDwD, I actually like him best aDwD, because he's isn't such a self-deluded hypocrite anymore.

 

[zandru]

3 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

But IMO it does reveal a great deal about his lack of compassion and lack of empathy.

Well, let's go back to being logical. Suppose Tyrion had "compassionately" convinced himself that Shae's lies in court which condemned him to die were totally forgivable, because what choice did she have, anyway? So he finds her in good old dad's bed, says "hi! where's my old man?" and proceeds toward the privy. Does anyone doubt that Shae would have summoned the guards, raised the alarm? And if Tyrion wasn't killed on the spot, he'd be taken away for extensive torture and Tywin would have been unhurt and coldly vengeful, as is his wont.

Tyrion may or may not have thought it through what it would mean to leave Shae in bed and safe - but there's no question that, if he had, he'd have died. And his empathy and compassion would have killed him. That, and his father's guards.

[HaeSuse]

8 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well, let's go back to being logical. Suppose Tyrion had "compassionately" convinced himself that Shae's lies in court which condemned him to die were totally forgivable, because what choice did she have, anyway? So he finds her in good old dad's bed, says "hi! where's my old man?" and proceeds toward the privy. Does anyone doubt that Shae would have summoned the guards, raised the alarm? And if Tyrion wasn't killed on the spot, he'd be taken away for extensive torture and Tywin would have been unhurt and coldly vengeful, as is his wont.

Tyrion may or may not have thought it through what it would mean to leave Shae in bed and safe - but there's no question that, if he had, he'd have died. And his empathy and compassion would have killed him. That, and his father's guards.

Also a good point. However, I still say, Shae was no moron. She knew the danger of the game she played as well as Tyrion the danger of the game he played. It's like in the illegal drug business in modern America. If you are buying bulk drugs from a bulk drug dealer, and slangin', you've bought into the game. You have to check your compassion at the door, in a lot of situations. That, or die, and die horribly, and early. It's the same playing the Game of Thrones. Or playing the Whore of King's Landing. If you have consciously decided to be in one of those games, you can try to be compassionate as much as possible, where possible, when possible. But if you want to remain in the game, alive, there will be times when you must eschew that compassion for cold, calculated cruelty. 

It's no different than Dany offering safe passage for that one dude, then threatening him with Dragons. Or "buying" unsullied with a dragon, and then burning the sellers alive, and taking everything, and leaving them nothing. Or burning the HotD. Or killing a master for each dead child she found. Or considering herself "compassionate" for "saving a few women from rape", after her Khalesar murdered, mutilated, ravaged and razed an entire city of lamb-men. She is compassionate.... as long as you allow for her circumstances, her situation, the era, the people, and the relative comparison to others around her.

 

I'm not trying to get into a "lets compare the virtues and vices of Tyrion and Danerys" battle. I'm just saying that when weighing either of their goods vs either of their bads, we must take into account set, setting, circumstance, society, norms, backgrounds, etc. And I think that both come out well ahead of their peers, all things being equal.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

37 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well, let's go back to being logical. Suppose Tyrion had "compassionately" convinced himself that Shae's lies in court which condemned him to die were totally forgivable, because what choice did she have, anyway? So he finds her in good old dad's bed, says "hi! where's my old man?" and proceeds toward the privy. Does anyone doubt that Shae would have summoned the guards, raised the alarm? And if Tyrion wasn't killed on the spot, he'd be taken away for extensive torture and Tywin would have been unhurt and coldly vengeful, as is his wont.

Tyrion may or may not have thought it through what it would mean to leave Shae in bed and safe - but there's no question that, if he had, he'd have died. And his empathy and compassion would have killed him. That, and his father's guards.

Hmmmm... I could have sworn I was being logical. 

And I'm going to be even more logical and maintain that your scenario above has no textual support, so it kinda falls flat as an example. It's pretty clear from the text why Tyrion killed her.

And you didn't address the other examples I gave of lack of compassion by Tyrion (other examples toward Shae, toward Masha Heddle the innkeeper) and Sweetsunray's example of Tyrion's bitter thoughts toward Benjen Stark, who had the effrontery to offer Tyrion a fur blanket to keep warm.

Tyrion's selfishness and self-centeredness isn't limited to Shae.

But, each to his own. I personally draw a heavy line between Tyrion's actions being "understandable" and Tyrion's actions being "justifiable". Other people don't. That's their (and my) prerogative.