Disliking Tyrion Lannister

[Apoplexy]

I don't hate Tyrion, he is just like everyone around him. But his treatment of low born women bothers me.

[The Sunland Lord]

51 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Please tell me which postion he should have received on the Small Council?

He was not stripped of power. His position became obsolete once Tywin returned and Tyrion was made Master of Coin once he got better. Did you expect the government to stop while Tyrion was unconscious and no one to act until he came to? Please tell me what Tywin and the government should have done while Tyrion was injured??

I'm not really sure your point here?

Tyrion wants power, he enjoys it and this position gave him power.

Well yeah, he is the Head of their House. In some societies to this day adult children are still expected to do what the Particarch/Matricarch of the House tells them. About 100 years ago this was the norm in all societies on the planet. 

You are going too find this is the common viewpoint in Westeros society. You only have to look at the adult Harry Hardyng whining about having to marry Sansa/Alayne but having to go along with it as he had been ordered to by his guardian. 

We will never know as he never tried. Cersei, Joffrey and Tywin are all his superiors in their society yet Tyrion rarely treated them with respect. We see him poison his sister rather than try to work with her, we see him slapping his 12 year old nephew instead of acting like the adult in that relationship and we see him boasting to the Vale Lords how he wished his father and sister, the Queen, dead, a major faux pas in this society. And when his father makes him the second most powerful person in the realm all he asks is for Tyrion not to bring the whore he has only just met to court and Tyrion instantly decides to say fuck it.  He could have been like Littlefinger or any number of nobles who fake sincerity and respect for their own good and advancement. Tyrion wants to have his cake and eat it. 

Who said it was? It was a huge reward as Sansa (and her claims) was one of the most valuable brides in the realm. Had Tyrion produced some heirs, built better relations with his family and the Lords of the land with his position on the Small Council he could, possibly, one day have inherited the Rock by proving he was the man his father wanted him to be. 

 

Tywin had never announced a new heir and given Tyrion the means to regain his (well Jaime's) birthright. 

 

-He was good as an acting Hand, and this ended once he served his purpose and Tywin was back. I guess you're right on this one: he wasn't more capable to be anything else rather than Master of coin. My bad I didn't express myself 100% clearly.

-I don't think the government should've stopped. Tywin had every right to retake his position. 

-My point is, he wasn't too much of a stable person. Put it like this: A man has a handsome position in society. He doesn't whore, drink, gamble like there's no tomorrow. He is patient and invests wisely, hangs out with respectable people, does business with these people etc. Now in what of the above do you recognize Tyrion? Except the fact he has a good position in society, he never used it for his long-term benefit. The comment you first made a reply to was in fact another reply to another member, that simply by playing smart and act more friendly to his superiors, was not enough for him to overthrow the likes of Tywin and Cercei. He didn't lead a life that would eventually paid off for him in that way. 

-I would know this. I live in a society which is feudal in all but name. It's "democratic" on paper. I never denied it was the same in Westeros, just tried to judge Tyrion based on his position in a society like this. 

-I agree. He acted like a dick all the time to these people. I want to add little to his credit: Tywin instructed him to handle the boy king, and his mother if he must. Because, the boy king didn't listen wiser people's counsel, beheading Ned Stark and all that, and his mom tolerated this, I don't think it was that bad of an instruction. Did Tyrion handled this in a best way possible? No, he didn't.

-The personal grudges he holds against the people you mentioned have roots from his birth. A little credit to him here also: They also loathed him in return, showing zero affection towards their relative. 

-No one said this marriage was in order to overthrow them. You mentioned it randomly in a reply that was another reply discussing him being able to do this. You probably wanted to praise Tywin for arranging this marriage? I think that strategically this was a good move. Stark-Lannister match in Westeros is certainly also for the greater good, too bad Joffrey didn't think so from the beginning since the boy was a psychopath.

-I guess if he tried more and more harder to please the needs of his family, maybe he would've earned this, yes.

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

-He was good as an acting Hand, and this ended once he served his purpose and Tywin was back. I guess you're right on this one: he wasn't more capable to be anything else rather than Master of coin. My bad I didn't express myself 100% clearly.

I'm not sure your point here? Once Tywin returned to the capital the position of stand in Hand was obsolete. You make it sound like this was some unjustice done to Tyrion. What should Tywin have done? Resign and hope the new King hires the uncle who threatened to harm him?

 

 

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-I don't think the government should've stopped. Tywin had every right to retake his position. 

So I am really not understanding your original point. Tyrion was unconsious, his positon no longer existed and as soon as he was awake he was made a member of the Small Council. Your original post insinuated he was treated unfairly. Can you explain how and what should have been done?

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-My point is, he wasn't too much of a stable person. Put it like this: A man has a handsome position in society. He doesn't whore, drink, gamble like there's no tomorrow. He is patient and invests wisely, hangs out with respectable people, does business with these people etc. Now in what of the above do you recognize Tyrion? Except the fact he has a good position in society, he never used it for his long-term benefit. The comment you first made a reply to was in fact another reply to another member, that simply by playing smart and act more friendly to his superiors, was not enough for him to overthrow the likes of Tywin and Cercei. He didn't lead a life that would eventually paid off for him in that way. 

He should never have been trying to overthrow his father and sister. He should have been working with them for the greater interests of their House. This is the single biggest flaw Tywin sees in Tyrion, that he would put his own House at risk over a whore/paramour. 

When Tywin learns that Tyrion had threatened the lives of his grandchildren over a whore he is justifiably furious. The fact that the same conversation that Tyrion admits to this he has the gall to demand to be publicly proclaimed the heir of Casterly Rock* is just salt to the wound. 

Tyrion did a great job as Hand but did an awful job of looking out for his family. That is why Tywin tells him he will be rewarded but never the Rock. 

 

 

*a demand that Robb Stark or Edmure Tully would never make from their fathers for doing their duty

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-The personal grudges he holds against the people you mentioned have roots from his birth. A little credit to him here also: They also loathed him in return, showing zero affection towards their relative. 

I blame Cersei and Tywin for this, they are adults, though as I said both are his social superior and treated with respect. Joffrey is 12 at the start of the series and the first interaction we see is Tyrion taunting and striking his nephew. Tyrion is at fault for this, he could have fostered a stronger, or at least passive, relationship with the future King. It is his own arrogance that makes him put a 12 year old boy in his place and it should be obvious to everyone that treating the heir of the realm like that is not going to end well for Tyrion.  

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-No one said this marriage was in order to overthrow them. 

I never made the argument that Tyrion should be trying to overthrow his own family. One of the reasons he seemed doomed to not get the Rock is his inability to do so. For the nobility of Westeros this is a major negative. 

 

[The Sunland Lord]

7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm not sure your point here? Once Tywin returned to the capital the position of stand in Hand was obsolete. You make it sound like this was some unjustice done to Tyrion. What should Tywin have done? Resign and hope the new King hires the uncle who threatened to harm him?

 

 

So I am really not understanding your original point. Tyrion was unconsious, his positon no longer existed and as soon as he was awake he was made a member of the Small Council. Your original post insinuated he was treated unfairly. Can you explain how and what should have been done?

He should never have been trying to overthrow his father and sister. He should have been working with them for the greater interests of their House. This is the single biggest flaw Tywin sees in Tyrion, that he would put his own House at risk over a whore/paramour. 

When Tywin learns that Tyrion had threatened the lives of his grandchildren over a whore he is justifiably furious. The fact that the same conversation that Tyrion admits to this he has the gall to demand to be publicly proclaimed the heir of Casterly Rock* is just salt to the wound. 

Tyrion did a great job as Hand but did an awful job of looking out for his family. That is why Tywin tells him he will be rewarded but never the Rock. 

 

 

*a demand that Robb Stark or Edmure Tully would never make from their fathers for doing their duty

I blame Cersei and Tywin for this, they are adults, though as I said both are his social superior and treated with respect. Joffrey is 12 at the start of the series and the first interaction we see is Tyrion taunting and striking his nephew. Tyrion is at fault for this, he could have fostered a stronger, or at least passive, relationship with the future King. It is his own arrogance that makes him put a 12 year old boy in his place and it should be obvious to everyone that treating the heir of the realm like that is not going to end well for Tyrion.  

I never made the argument that Tyrion should be trying to overthrow his own family. One of the reasons he seemed doomed to not get the Rock is his inability to do so. For the nobility of Westeros this is a major negative. 

 

-Tywin had every right to retake his position. My original point was that, Tywin knew to hold Tyrion on short chains. This post was a reply to another post, about whether Tyrion was able to overthrow his superiors if he simply was playing it smart. It wasn't whether Tywin was right or not, but stating facts. You pulled out this part and making an entirely different point with different questions. 

-He should have worked, but he didn't. 

-I agree, Robb and Edmure were more dutiful sons. Tyrion's demand was out of place.

-Yes he was a good hand but not the most dutiful member of the family. 

- Guilt is always on every side I suppose. That little prick Joffrey on the other hand, has not earned good treatment from anyone. This psychopathic, sadistic cunt was pure evil from the beginning, and was his mother's son all along, if you ask me. Tyrion and Tywin tried to teach him that he governs the lifes of millions of people and he made impossible ending the war with Robb with an early agreement when he executed Ned Stark, their most valuable hostage. This is when Tywin instructs Tyrion to put him and his mom in place. 12 years or not, the boy's mind was not in the right place. He was dangerous to everyone, a mad dog that was rightfully put away.

-You never made, but again, another member wrote it (not as if he should, but if those were his intentions), to which was my first reply. 

[devilish]

17 hours ago, Sigella said:

Yeah its not like Brandon the Builder made SE, or that its so expertly built that even the storm-god couldn't raze it. Oh wait...  

Does the storm god even exist? What we know is that Visenya was relieved she didn't had to storm CR because she believe that the fortress would be immune to dragonfire. Can't say the same about the Stormlands. Its defenders abandoned Argella for fear that Storm's end would end up like Harrenhal. 

[Sigella]

1 hour ago, devilish said:

Does the storm god even exist? What we know is that Visenya was relieved she didn't had to storm CR because she believe that the fortress would be immune to dragonfire. Can't say the same about the Stormlands. Its defenders abandoned Argella for fear that Storm's end would end up like Harrenhal. 

Westeros doesn't exist

 

I see your point about CR being hard to take but SE is still known as the impregnable castle of Westeros. Nobody ever called CR that.

[devilish]

2 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Westeros doesn't exist

 

I see your point about CR being hard to take but SE is still known as the impregnable castle of Westeros. Nobody ever called CR that.

Apart from Visenya of course. 

Storm's end wall is 100 feet high. the wall is 700 feet high, CR is measured three times as high as the wall. That does say something. 

[Sigella]

16 minutes ago, devilish said:

Apart from Visenya of course. 

Storm's end wall is 100 feet high. the wall is 700 feet high, CR is measured three times as high as the wall. That does say something. 

Still not known to anyone as impregnable.

edit: unlike SE

[Alex Verrall]

Raping that poor slave girl was it for me with Tyrion. He crossed the line from tragicly sympathetic to in his words a "horrible little creature"

[Esviir]

Hi I'm late to the party but I'm so glad I'm not alone in not liking Tyrion! 

It's funny, the first time I read the series I loved Tyrion a lot- but I think I must have been viewing him with seriously rose-tinted glasses, because reading through the second time he was far more spiteful and irritating than I remembered.

I was fairly neutral towards him in Game Of Thrones, but he really started to grate on my nerves during Clash Of Kings and by the time I got to Storm of Swords reading his chapters had become a chore and I really started to get frustrated with his constant self delusion and need to be loved. Ironically I actually like reading his Dance With Dragons chapters far more than a lot of other people seem to because he's embraced his dark side rather than (in my opinion) unconvincingly pretending to be decent.

[TeethGrinder]

I think he's incredibly likeable to me but I generally go for grey characters anyways.

He's hugely flawed, traumatised, bitter but I think you have to view him with he context to everything that's happened to him and as a result, defined him. Tywin's treatment was bad enough, what happened Tysha was terrible enough but then finding out that the story was a lie would be enough to break most men. Hatred and vengeance being his only motives for living at that point are quite easy to understand, as is his descent to Nihilism. He does reprehensible things but he does show a conscience, certainly enough to separate him from the truly evil characters of the story. 

[Sigella]

On 2017-08-31 at 1:00 AM, TeethGrinder said:

I think he's incredibly likeable to me but I generally go for grey characters anyways.

He's hugely flawed, traumatised, bitter but I think you have to view him with he context to everything that's happened to him and as a result, defined him. Tywin's treatment was bad enough, what happened Tysha was terrible enough but then finding out that the story was a lie would be enough to break most men. Hatred and vengeance being his only motives for living at that point are quite easy to understand, as is his descent to Nihilism. He does reprehensible things but he does show a conscience, certainly enough to separate him from the truly evil characters of the story. 

I dont think anyone can deny that Tyrion has been through some awful stuff. But so has a lot of people and they dont all run around saying how much they want to rape their sister... Or rape people at all for that matter. 

The books certainly wouldnt be the same without him and I dont hold any notion of Tyrion not being a great literary figure - but on a personal note I still think he's an ass.

[Banner Without Brothers]

2 hours ago, Sigella said:

I dont think anyone can deny that Tyrion has been through some awful stuff. But so has a lot of people and they dont all run around saying how much they want to rape their sister... Or rape people at all for that matter. 

The books certainly wouldnt be the same without him and I dont hold any notion of Tyrion not being a great literary figure - but on a personal note I still think he's an ass.

Rape is about power not sex or so the psychologists say. I think Tyrion is absolutely obsessed with power and Cersei has always done her best to keep him as powerless as possible. Plus we're shown over and over again that certain female characters power is in their sexuality. Cersei's walk of shame being the prime example of this. Stripped of her clothes and stripped of her power. I think that's why he thinks about raping Cersei. The sex worker in Volantis is his revenge on all women for making him feel powerless. He is a class A misogynist.

 

Still my favourite chapters to read.

[Sigella]

18 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

Rape is about power not sex or so the psychologists say. I think Tyrion is absolutely obsessed with power and Cersei has always done her best to keep him as powerless as possible. Plus we're shown over and over again that certain female characters power is in their sexuality. Cersei's walk of shame being the prime example of this. Stripped of her clothes and stripped of her power. I think that's why he thinks about raping Cersei. The sex worker in Volantis is his revenge on all women for making him feel powerless. He is a class A misogynist.

 

Still my favourite chapters to read.

Its funny though.

I can't decide wether us loving to read about this ass of a character is a sign of our own ass-ness - or if it means that we have great empathy. Same thing with Cersei, she is one of my faves, but I can't decide if liking her makes me a better or worse person  

[Banner Without Brothers]

8 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Its funny though.

I can't decide wether us loving to read about this ass of a character is a sign of our own ass-ness - or if it means that we have great empathy. Same thing with Cersei, she is one of my faves, but I can't decide if liking her makes me a better or worse person  

I know, it is a tough one. I think in a way I end up being an apologist for almost every POV character. Even the most despised like Cersei. I can certainly empathise with her situation and the pressure she's under. With Cersei as well I relate her to someone I've known irl, maybe not the worst stuff but at least the way she thinks. Tyrion makes it easy for us to overlook the horrible entitled behaviour for two main reasons; He's funny, at least compared to most of the characters and he provides a lot of background information to almost everything he encounters. It's the old spoonful of sugar making the medicine go down. We overlook the fact he's doing all this horrible stuff because he's entertaining and provides us with accurate information.

On the other hand, going into Tyrion apologetics mode, we are in a unique position as readers to be the thought police. I think we all at some time have had dark thoughts that we would never act on especially in times of great stress. Like feeling really angry at someone and wishing they were dead.Tyrion is in full on breakdown mode when he's having his darkest thoughts. These dark thoughts are probably drawn from Martin's own experiences of bad break ups and broken hearts. He had one relationship where his girlfriend left him for his best friend. Perhaps analogous to finding Tywin and Shae together, with maybe the feelings turned up to 11 with all the other stuff that goes with the history of Tywin and the women Tyrion (thinks he) loves.

I don't think he really loves any of them but he loves the idea of them. Tysha is no more than an idea to him. Someone to put on a pedestal. He wants to find her not to try to right the wrongs done to her but to right the wrongs done to him.

[4 Eyed Crow]

When I first started to read AGOT, I thought Tyrion chapters were boring and kind of a chore to read. Around ASOS, I decided he was actually pretty funny, and he moved up a little in my character rankings, but he’s still not my favourite.

[Sigella]

2 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

I know, it is a tough one. I think in a way I end up being an apologist for almost every POV character. Even the most despised like Cersei. I can certainly empathise with her situation and the pressure she's under. With Cersei as well I relate her to someone I've known irl, maybe not the worst stuff but at least the way she thinks. Tyrion makes it easy for us to overlook the horrible entitled behaviour for two main reasons; He's funny, at least compared to most of the characters and he provides a lot of background information to almost everything he encounters. It's the old spoonful of sugar making the medicine go down. We overlook the fact he's doing all this horrible stuff because he's entertaining and provides us with accurate information.

On the other hand, going into Tyrion apologetics mode, we are in a unique position as readers to be the thought police. I think we all at some time have had dark thoughts that we would never act on especially in times of great stress. Like feeling really angry at someone and wishing they were dead.Tyrion is in full on breakdown mode when he's having his darkest thoughts. These dark thoughts are probably drawn from Martin's own experiences of bad break ups and broken hearts. He had one relationship where his girlfriend left him for his best friend. Perhaps analogous to finding Tywin and Shae together, with maybe the feelings turned up to 11 with all the other stuff that goes with the history of Tywin and the women Tyrion (thinks he) loves.

I don't think he really loves any of them but he loves the idea of them. Tysha is no more than an idea to him. Someone to put on a pedestal. He wants to find her not to try to right the wrongs done to her but to right the wrongs done to him.

Wow I had no idea about that. Thats horrible...

 

I try not to ever think about the author/artist/musician behind the art because imo that draws away from the art rather than improving it. Knowing this I might look for things I hadn't otherwise. It makes the mind preconceive.

[Banner Without Brothers]

8 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Wow I had no idea about that. Thats horrible...

 

I try not to ever think about the author/artist/musician behind the art because imo that draws away from the art rather than improving it. Knowing this I might look for things I hadn't otherwise. It makes the mind preconceive.

I'm not saying that Martin wants to rape his sister or put the press into a stew. Just that certain themes crop up over and over again in Martin's work. Particularly Meathouse man, which I think closely resembles Tyrion and was written after the aforementioned break up. If we follow the plot of Meathouse man. Tyrion will get together with Penny. That's my prediction or I could be completely wrong about all of this 

[Foot_Of_The_King]

He's my favorite. 

[Sigella]

On 2017-10-12 at 7:26 PM, 4 Eyed Crow said:

When I first started to read AGOT, I thought Tyrion chapters were boring and kind of a chore to read. Around ASOS, I decided he was actually pretty, and he moved up a little in my character rankings, but he’s still not my favourite.

Yeah its a redeeming thing: although we have to suffer his view on women, we get to see some awesome stuff thanks to the twisted demon monkey. So very much we'd miss if not for him