Disliking Tyrion Lannister

[Dorian Martell's son]

7 hours ago, Sigella said:

 

at least you aren't super homophobic like all the renly haters out there 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

19 hours ago, TheSeason said:

Tysha's gang-rape was a lesson, and the lesson was well-learned. Tyrion learned (wrongly) that he was inherently unlovable, just like his father wanted, and proceeded to act accordingly. And Tyrion learned that a man who has been slighted, humiliated, reviled, and made to feel small by a woman can reassert and redefine the balance of power in the relationship by raping and degrading her (another way in which he is just like his father), and that doing so can make him feel good (at least momentarily) about himself again. Tyrion also learned that not only "smallfolk" but also women were beneath him (just as Tywin intended). 

Tyrion's relationship with Tysha has always been all about him, about his needs and his psychological development and his destructive and depraved behavior. Tysha made him feel like a hero when he rescued her from her would-be rapers. Tysha made him feel loved and worthwhile in their brief relationship and marriage. Tysha provided him his first and most formative sexual experiences (wherein Tyrion also knew his "whore" of a wife was somehow in fact simultaneously "a virgin" when they first made love, whereupon he became attracted to "innocence" in women!)--including the sexual violence that he learns to fall back on in order to re-establish control and esteem in relationships with a woman.

Thank you for your entire post.  While we can stress and sympathize with the fact that Tyrion was barely a teenager and Tywin is the main culprit responsible for what happened to Tysha, we can't ignore that Tyrion was very quick to believe that Tysha was a whore.  How the F is that possible?  He says so himself that Tysha was obviously a virgin and that they were both shy and inexperienced:

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"She was hungrier than I would have believed. We finished two whole chickens and part of a third, and drank a flagon of wine, talking. I was only thirteen, and the wine went to my head, I fear. The next thing I knew, I was sharing her bed. If she was shy, I was shyer. I'll never know where I found the courage. When I broke her maidenhead, she wept, but afterward she kissed me and sang her little song, and by morning I was in love."

He has no legitimate reason to doubt Tysha and believe his father over her.  He believed it because Tywin knows how to push that button that he's inherently unlovable and he defaulted to that being more believable than Tysha loving him, ergo Tysha must be a whore.  Tywin didn't need to physically force Tyrion into participating.  All he had to do was push that button in Tyrion that he created to make him doubt everything and passively go along.  There are aspects of this situation where I do sympathize with Tyrion; however, Tysha being severely physically and mentally traumatized is the vastly more important matter at hand.  Tyrion never says he even tried to protest.  

And there is no excuse for believing a sex worker deserves to be gang raped as if she doesn't count.  And as you say, he's got this really fucked up Madonna-whore complex thereafter.  In Dance we see him absolutely haunted by "where do whores go?"  He still can't stop thinking of Tysha as a whore even after the truth is confirmed to him (again) by Jaime.  It's definitely a struggle for him to let go of that idea.  If he fully acknowledges she was never a whore, then he must face himself for passively going along, offering no resistance, and not taking her side.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Thank you for your entire post.  While we can stress and sympathize with the fact that Tyrion was barely a teenager and Tywin is the main culprit responsible for what happened to Tysha, we can't ignore that Tyrion was very quick to believe that Tysha was a whore.  How the F is that possible?  He says so himself that Tysha was obviously a virgin and that they were both shy and inexperienced:

We obviously aren't going to agree on much about Tyrion so I'm not going to go on a long rant but I would like to point out Tysha being a virgin does not make it impossible for her to be a whore. First & foremost Jaime told Tyrion they paid extra for a maid. Secondly we know this is possible because of the Pate chapter in which he is trying to get a dragon to be able to be the one who takes Rosie's (? I can't remember her name) maiden head. 

[Wild Bill]

21 hours ago, TheSeason said:

...

As for the last part, I do not even know what you are talking about. Please explain. 

...

I needed to quote something.  [nice post]

Anyway, this discussion has caused me to question my great love of Tyrion as my co-favorite character. The last couple dozen posts have had superb argument in them (not in technique, but in substance). Not that I expect some great coming together here...

Tyrion's POV about Tysha is unreliable (including his presumed psychosis and such). Not to point that out in particular, but we don't have a reliable viewpoint in anything regarding Tyrion - we get it most of it in his POV chapters.

Jamie and Cercei have POV's and might contribute, but they are also unreliable. Tywin does not have a POV, and Tywin seems to be a key viewpoint we need, though he would be unreliable as well. Reliable conclusions cannot be made in grrm's POV structure.

This by way of saying I don't thing there can be a conclusion to the arguments. Tyrion Lannister is a very complex character in complex circumstances. His character challenges many things we think of, such as the ways we view sexuality/gender politics/entitlement/power/...

[This message brought to you by Wild Bill Inc, providers of the finest Fly Fishing gear, and including our new offering of pre-carved, Halloween pumpkins in all the styles you want to flaunt on your front porch - Classic, Kardashian, and neo-Dada'ist]

Sorry for the last bit of whimsy, since the arguments have really been very good...:)

Cheers,

Bill

[Foot_Of_The_King]

Complex/interesting guy.. Capable of great acts of compassion and also great acts of evil. He has massive issues as we all know. He's my favorite character though. Being smart and funny goes along way with that. 

[Lion of the West]

9 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Killing Tywin the main reason to dislike him

Probably because by that deed he did more to harm Westeros and more to hurt the family to which he owed everything he had than anything else he did. And just like I despise the Freys for breaching guest rights I don't hold kinslayers in high regard.

[Sigella]

8 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

at least you aren't super homophobic like all the renly haters out there 

Maybe thats what I want you to believe... 

[Tygett Lannister]

11 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Not in the legal sense of the word, no.  It would not be prosecuted if it occurs within marriage.  But people still do know what rape is and they know it when they see it.  It is illegal in general.  Arya sees a man in a crow cage with his genitals cut off as punishment for rape.  Stannis gelds his men that are caught raping even wildling women.  There are major problems in the world about how and when rape is prosecuted and punished, that is absolutely true.  Often it's dependent on the social status of the rapist and the victim.  But even within marriage, they know it when they see it.  Jaime, who is hardly the most moral of characters, stands outside the room and listens as Aerys rapes Rhaella.  His conscience tells him "This is wrong. We need to do something."  And he voices that wish to stop this to another kingsguard who tells him we're not supposed to protect her from him.  Both of them are acknowledging the truth of what is happening.  No one is saying "well they are married so it's not rape."  They know it's rape and they choose ignore their conscience and let it go because it's the king that is raping his wife.  People hear the screams of Arya/Jeyne in Winterfell when Ramsay rapes her.  No one is saying this is okay or expected because they are married.  They explicitly plan to shed some Bolton blood over what is happening to her.  At Edmure and Roslin's wedding, she's clearly frightened because she knows what's going to happen.  She has no reason to grow attached to Edmure after one night, but she does.  She clearly has an affection for him and continues to worry about him.  That cannot be because Edmure just "did his duty."  Imagine how powerless Roslin would feel going into this marriage, especially being raised among the Freys and how Old Walder treats his wives.  We can only conclude that Edmure was kind, attentive, and made her feel comfortable in a genuine way.   

Misogyny is certainly baked into the system and every Westorosi marriage.  Ned can legally rape Catelyn and never be prosecuted, even though they have the happiest of marriages on page.  There's clearly an inherent power imbalance even if it's not exercised.  Yes, there are men who do rape their wives and get away with it, but that doesn't mean we should conclude people don't know any better in this world or that no one cares or they view that as normal marital relations.  Typical would probably be more like two people cordially interacting that have sex sometimes to ensure they have enough heirs, but probably after that the sex drops off considerably.  More often than not you see men seeking pleasure with mistresses or prostitutes.  Women less so, because there's more negative consequence to their infidelity.  I would never argue this is a good system for marriage or fair, but it doesn't indicate men are regularly raping their wives.    

When exactly did Tywin and Tyrion have a conversation about making sure Sansa wouldn't get pregnant for her safety?  Was there talk of using moon tea or pulling out?  Oh wait, that never happened.  Winterfell, the marriage, an an heir all go hand-in hand.  Succession is extremely important when you're trying to establish authority.  That's why Robb and Jeyne are trying so hard to conceive as quickly as possible.  The question of heirs is critical to political stability.  You can't have a claim up for grabs every generation.  It results in civil wars.  Robb can't have an heir because the Northmen could rally behind him or her and any of them would come before Sansa's children in inheritance rights.  It's also one reason Ramsey is repeated raping Jeyne/Arya.  The marriage is to get the Bolton's foot in the door to rule in "his wife's name," an heir with Stark blood is to keep that power.  It doesn't even really matter if Sansa dies in childbirth.  It's a gamble Tywin would take to get a Lannister as legitimate / legal heir to Winterfell with Tyrion as Lord Protector and sole guardian.  Tywin absolutely has no reason to tell Tyrion to wait on impregnating Sansa.  Their children establish the new theoretical Lannister dynasty in the North.  If they delay, there's more chance of rebellion stirring up.          

 

Of course people know rape is wrong, and they punish lowborn for it while hypocrite highborn can do it and go away with it (Stannis the Mannis of course different and punishes even nobles). But 90% of marriages where woman will never want to have sex with their husband will end up in a rape. Though most of the marriages both partners know it is their duty and just do it, some marriages non of them want to have sex and don't do it, some they love each other and have sex out of passion for each other, so that makes rape marriages less common. But if you tell your noble fam "My wife didn't want to have sex with me so I had to rape her." he will most likely reply "What else could you do bruv."

If Tyrion impregnates Sansa and she dies at childbirth there are also high chances Tyrion doesn't gets heir to Winterfell, she can either give birth to a female which is 50% chance and this female won't be able to have children named Lannister (matrilineal marriage is only in Dorne) There is also a chance of both child and Sansa dying. This makes it above 50% chance of failure.  We also don't know if moon tea can make a woman less fertile (Lysa) probably no, Jon Arryn was probably the problem that Lysa had so many still born children (like Henry VIII).

Quote

"She is no more than a child."

"Your sister swears she's flowered. If so, she is a woman, fit to be wed. You must needs take her maidenhead, so no man can say the marriage was not consummated. After that, if you prefer to wait a year or two before bedding her again, you would be within your rights as her husband." (aSoS, Tyrion III)

Here is conversation you claim never happened. It is not exactly command to not impregnate but it is saying he only needs to take maidenhead. So it is much better if he waits a bit to impregnate her, since it would take multiple years to take North anyways if he plans on doing it. Pretty sure all are aware of this situation (Tyrion, Kevan, Tywin). And I'm pretty sure Kevan and Tywin know Tyrion is experienced in preventing pregnancy and Tyrion didn't even need to go all the way to take her maidenhead, it would take 1 move to do that.

Ramsey rapes her because that is what he does it is in his character and of course to get heir fast.

If he delays he wouldn't be delaying it while staying in Winterfell. He has Roose Bolton holding the North with weaker claim than Sansa and sure has few years to spare before impregnating her. Especially when Boltons hold Moat Cailin and rebellion is not crushed yet. In order for Tyrion to take North he needs like 10k men at least, navy to go around Moat Cailin and besiege it from both sides. Which means he needs to take Lannister army from Riverlands to Westerlands from where he would attack North with navy. Roberts company to Winterfell took 3 months to get there via Kingsroad and that was fast since group wasn't that big and had good horses. Now imagine army mostly on foot and additional supply trains. Siege of Moat Cailin, Winterfell, Dreadfort and other castles not willing to follow Sansa with her Lannister husband.

 

[Tygett Lannister]

3 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Probably because by that deed he did more to harm Westeros and more to hurt the family to which he owed everything he had than anything else he did. And just like I despise the Freys for breaching guest rights I don't hold kinslayers in high regard.

Because Tywin was a great man that did a lot of good for the realm. But his service as King's Hand while taking shit from Aerys II made 7 Kingdoms prosper, Robert would have killed every Targ captured anyways so Tywin just order dirty work for him. Red wedding saved many lives of commoners and soldiers. His destruction of Reynes left Lannister army untouched. His only weakness being hating Tyrion (though I can see why he would hate him) and sack of Kingslanding was not needed.

[The Sunland Lord]

Tywin was a scumbag. 

He killed babies, sacked cities and villages, ordered gangbangs, orchestrated and approved wedding massacre. Do I forget something?

 

[Tygett Lannister]

3 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Tywin was a scumbag. 

He killed babies, sacked cities and villages, ordered gangbangs, orchestrated and approved wedding massacre. Do I forget something?

Wedding massacre of a few nobles that saved many lives and ended the war. Killed babies that were good as dead. And everyone in Riverlands is raiding, small folk themselves say it everyone is the same even Brotherhood that gives them paper as a payment, can they eat paper?

[The Sunland Lord]

2 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Wedding massacre of a few nobles that saved many lives and ended the war. Killed babies that were good as dead. And everyone in Riverlands is raiding, small folk themselves say it everyone is the same even Brotherhood that gives them paper as a payment, can they eat paper?

Few? Few thousands you mean. 

Tywin ordered the killings and raping of their mother. Yeah war is a lot about plunder and sack in general, but Tywin's forces were leading in this contest. I mean look at the company he is with most the time. The mountain, Vargo Hoat, Amory Lorch. He hires these "dogs and goats" to do the dirty work. 

 

 

[Lion of the West]

33 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Because Tywin was a great man that did a lot of good for the realm. But his service as King's Hand while taking shit from Aerys II made 7 Kingdoms prosper, Robert would have killed every Targ captured anyways so Tywin just order dirty work for him. Red wedding saved many lives of commoners and soldiers. His destruction of Reynes left Lannister army untouched. His only weakness being hating Tyrion (though I can see why he would hate him) and sack of Kingslanding was not needed.

Well, I would say that while Tywin generally did right and provided more good for Westeors than he did bad, he was a great but terrible man and did a few things which I think were mistakes for various reasons. And in regards to Tyrion I think that one of the reason that Tyrion is so defiant of Tywin is because Tywin pours scorn over his son. If Tywin had been more loving to Tyrion then I think that Tyrion would likely been more receptive to Tywin's advice.

For one thing killing the Targaryen babies, and Elia, were a mistake as it would have been better to just capture them and deliver them to Robert. No blood on Lannister hands and the capture of King's Landing and the royal family minus Aerys would have been sufficient to pledge Casterly Rock to King Robert without the stain that the killings brought.

Secondly I think the Red Wedding was wrong. While it was planned and executed by the Freys and Boltons I feel the same could have been accomplished by Lord Frey closing his gates to Robb and trap him in the Riverlands and when Tywin march north to deal with the Young Separatist then Lord Bolton could turn his cloak during the battle and fall on Robb to ensure victory for the crown. Again victory in the end and much less stain on the name of Lannister, Frey and Bolton.

Thirdly I don't think that the Sack could have been avoided. Cities that gets captured gets sacked and its not different if the commander is Danaerys or Tywin. Tywin had to capture the city before Eddard Stark arrived and there's really no sense in alienating your own soldiers for the sake of an enemy city during war. So that stain was probably necessary.

7 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Few? Few thousands you mean. 

Tywin ordered the killings and raping of their mother. Yeah war is a lot about plunder and sack in general, but Tywin's forces were leading in this contest. I mean look at the company he is with most the time. The mountain, Vargo Hoat, Amory Lorch. He hires these "dogs and goats" to do the dirty work.

Few thousand soldiers, and you may not know but its generally ok to target enemy soldiers in war for the soldiers of each side. But as can be seen above I agree that the Red Wedding was a horrble thing that shouldn't have been done.

There's really no reason to think that Tywin ordered Elia to be killed and raped. You may not have noticed that Gregor Clegane is perfectly capable to murder and rape without Tywin telling him to do so. Gregor is a human with an agency of his own, and I see no reason as to think why Gregor couldn't initiate murder and rape by his own free will when he's done so at other times like Ser Hugh, the innkeeper's daughter, his own family and so on. Its certainly possible that Tywin was lying to Tyrion but I don't get why Tywin would acknowledge he ordered the Targaryen children to be killed but try to distance himself from Elia's fate.

But in general I agree that Tywin was brutal in the Riverlands and picked commanders for his rangings who were of the "correct" mentality to carry out such cruel actions while stopping for example Daven Lannister from taking part in these workings. But then again war is brutal and so far there's no reason to think that Tywin's enemies were less brutal than him, and the argument does seem to be that Tywin is more brutal than anyone else.

[The Sunland Lord]

6 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Well, I would say that while Tywin generally did right and provided more good for Westeors than he did bad, he was a great but terrible man and did a few things which I think were mistakes for various reasons. And in regards to Tyrion I think that one of the reason that Tyrion is so defiant of Tywin is because Tywin pours scorn over his son. If Tywin had been more loving to Tyrion then I think that Tyrion would likely been more receptive to Tywin's advice.

For one thing killing the Targaryen babies, and Elia, were a mistake as it would have been better to just capture them and deliver them to Robert. No blood on Lannister hands and the capture of King's Landing and the royal family minus Aerys would have been sufficient to pledge Casterly Rock to King Robert without the stain that the killings brought.

Secondly I think the Red Wedding was wrong. While it was planned and executed by the Freys and Boltons I feel the same could have been accomplished by Lord Frey closing his gates to Robb and trap him in the Riverlands and when Tywin march north to deal with the Young Separatist then Lord Bolton could turn his cloak during the battle and fall on Robb to ensure victory for the crown. Again victory in the end and much less stain on the name of Lannister, Frey and Bolton.

Thirdly I don't think that the Sack could have been avoided. Cities that gets captured gets sacked and its not different if the commander is Danaerys or Tywin. Tywin had to capture the city before Eddard Stark arrived and there's really no sense in alienating your own soldiers for the sake of an enemy city during war. So that stain was probably necessary.

Few thousand soldiers, and you may not know but its generally ok to target enemy soldiers in war for the soldiers of each side. But as can be seen above I agree that the Red Wedding was a horrble thing that shouldn't have been done.

There's really no reason to think that Tywin ordered Elia to be killed and raped. You may not have noticed that Gregor Clegane is perfectly capable to murder and rape without Tywin telling him to do so. Gregor is a human with an agency of his own, and I see no reason as to think why Gregor couldn't initiate murder and rape by his own free will when he's done so at other times like Ser Hugh, the innkeeper's daughter, his own family and so on. Its certainly possible that Tywin was lying to Tyrion but I don't get why Tywin would acknowledge he ordered the Targaryen children to be killed but try to distance himself from Elia's fate.

But in general I agree that Tywin was brutal in the Riverlands and picked commanders for his rangings who were of the "correct" mentality to carry out such cruel actions while stopping for example Daven Lannister from taking part in these workings. But then again war is brutal and so far there's no reason to think that Tywin's enemies were less brutal than him, and the argument does seem to be that Tywin is more brutal than anyone else.

You're right. It's not revelaed for sure if it was Tywin's orders or not. 

Yeah I might have gone too far, he was a complex character after all, despite not having a POV you might say it. And, to tell the true, his intentions were to be a few noblemen but it turned out as it did.

[Tygett Lannister]

Red wedding was not a mistake few nobles dying at a wedding and 3-4k thousand soldiers killed outside the Twins. And after the Red wedding Riverlands are starting to pacify though Brotherhood without Banner (religious fanatics) are disrupting it.

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Tywin: Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner. The price was cheap by any measure. The crown shall grant Riverrun to Ser Emmon Frey once the Blackfish yields. Lancel and Daven must marry Frey girls, Joy is to wed one of Lord Walder's natural sons when she's old enough, and Roose Bolton becomes Warden of the North and takes home Arya Stark.

Tyrion: Arya Stark? And Bolton? I might have known Frey would not have the stomach to act alone.

In scenario that you described how many more soldiers would die in a battle when Lannisters press Starks from one side and Boltons from the other, would be complete massacre of Stark army and Boltons. Compared to 3-4k at Twins. And that is mostly men that are traitors to the realm, rebels and their lives are not worth as much as Lannister soldiers in terms of reaching the peace and stability. Most of stain goes on Freys and Boltons anyways. What Tywin did was assure them he would ally with the afterwards and grant them lands, which isn't much of a common knowledge. Someone could easily understand it as that Freys and Bolton's acted alone and Tywin said hey you did well be my allies.

Tywin just had better dogs to do his raiding than North/Riverlanders had and even that is not sure. But Robb also orders raiding Westerlands and we have no detail how brutal Northmen might be there, they also take livestock from their own Riverland small folk as does Brotherhood. If you take all the food from people it can be worse than killing them since they die of starvation. Mountain, Addam and Hoat are just three people we mostly see commit these brutal raids, how do you imagine Greatjon drunk after battle visiting a nearby village. Or Karstarks that were mad about death of their Lord's sons. Or Riverlanders that went with him returning the damage for what Lannisters did to Riverlands. Fact is we only see Lannister raids and no Starks ones so we automatically assume Lannisters were much worse, no, we don't know. Men have same nature on both sides and I don't think Robb would be like: "Karstarks go raid the coast but be gentle. Anyone that rapes will be sent to wall or castrated."

[A Ghost of Someone]

Regarding the red wedding, there are religious and social customs that have and will have massive repercussions. The faith has not ignored it. Tywin is claiming deniability where he says that he did not physically execute it per say, just like he never ordered the rape and murder if princess Elia of Dorne, which he did not.