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Disliking Tyrion Lannister


Sigella

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Tyrion is a perpetual smart mouth, greedy, arrogant and spiteful creature who never really appreciated how blessed a life he had until he meets Penny and begins to reflect a little bit when he gets to know another dwarf who tells him about her life and that of her deceased dwarf brother. Still though, Tyrion was not written to be a Saint and yet so many keep trying to make him out to be one or get mad as hell when they fail. Then again, the show runners have done just that.

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23 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Tyrion is a perpetual smart mouth, greedy, arrogant and spiteful creature who never really appreciated how blessed a life he had until he meets Penny and begins to reflect a little bit when he gets to know another dwarf who tells him about her life and that of her deceased dwarf brother. Still though, Tyrion was not written to be a Saint and yet so many keep trying to make him out to be one or get mad as hell when they fail. Then again, the show runners have done just that.

My guess would be that seeing the slave trade from the inside is a sobering experience for any highborn, driving home the lesson on a whole other level.

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23 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

He still has more lessons to learn as he is pretty nasty where the books left us offf regarding him.

Lets hope so :D 

He is a great creation but still such a jerk.

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On 19/10/2017 at 8:12 PM, A Ghost of Someone said:

Tyrion was not written to be a Saint and yet so many keep trying to make him out to be one or get mad as hell when they fail.

Or maybe Tyrion was not written to be the twisted monkey demon and yet some people make him out to be so and get righteous as can be when other people point out he's not.  Want a bet on whether Tyrion finishes the series as a villain or a hero (in GRRM's warts and all rendering of such)?

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3 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Or maybe Tyrion was not written to be the twisted monkey demon and yet some people make him out to be so and get righteous as can be when other people point out he's not.  Want a bet on whether Tyrion finishes the series as a villain or a hero (in GRRM's warts and all rendering of such)?

Not a Demon Monkey but a nasty, greedy and generally rude little person. Abusive to women in general, arrogant and entitled and wreckless with his mouth. The people that seem to like him most usually sight that he slaps Joffrey and is not a fan of his sister. Well, that is fine but it is stupid to slap around the future KIng and think he will not seek retribution when he has the power and opportunity to do so.

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6 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Not a Demon Monkey but a nasty, greedy and generally rude little person. Abusive to women in general, arrogant and entitled and wreckless with his mouth. The people that seem to like him most usually sight that he slaps Joffrey and is not a fan of his sister. Well, that is fine but it is stupid to slap around the future KIng and think he will not seek retribution when he has the power and opportunity to do so.

Interesting that you reduce the argument for any positives about Tyrion's to not being like Cersei or Joffrey.  Reckless and with a big mouth, sure.  But he's right to scold Joffrey about his callous indifference bordering on slight / open antipathy to Bran / House Stark for not showing any sympathy to them after Bran's fall.  His methods can be faulted but not his instincts and reaction which I hope you'll agree is to offer sympathy and regret not to be nasty, greedy or rude to the Starks.

Did Jon or Lord Commander Mormont find him nasty, greedy or rude?  He offered good advice to Jon and they parted friends.  The one enemy he made at Castle Black was Alliser Thorne and I don't think that reflects badly on Tyrion, he saw the man's character clearly enough and called him out for it.  Confrontational and rude to Alliser Thorne?  Sure.  I still find that hard to hold against him.

Out of interest how and where / when is Tyrion greedy?  He seems remarkably uninterested in money, luxuries or ostentation: he's more likely to be in a library reading a good book than planning how to enrich himself.

As for Joffrey and Cersei, everything he does in KL is to rein in their excesses.  After all when he gets to KL it's his stated intent to "do justice". 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion I

"So what will you do, m'lord, now that you're the Hand of the King?" Shae asked him as he cupped that warm sweet flesh.
"Something Cersei will never expect," Tyrion murmured softly against her slender neck. "I'll do . . . justice."

Remember Allar Deem?  I'll shed no tears for a man who killed a newborn and the mother protecting her child with her life.

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3 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Interesting that you reduce the argument for any positives about Tyrion's to not being like Cersei or Joffrey.  Reckless and with a big mouth, sure.  But he's right to scold Joffrey about his callous indifference bordering on slight / open antipathy to Bran / House Stark for not showing any sympathy to them after Bran's fall.  His methods can be faulted but not his instincts and reaction which I hope you'll agree is to offer sympathy and regret not to be nasty, greedy or rude to the Starks.

Did Jon or Lord Commander Mormont find him nasty, greedy or rude?  He offered good advice to Jon and they parted friends.  The one enemy he made at Castle Black was Alliser Thorne and I don't think that reflects badly on Tyrion, he saw the man's character clearly enough and called him out for it.  Confrontational and rude to Alliser Thorne?  Sure.  I still find that hard to hold against him.

Out of interest how and where / when is Tyrion greedy?  He seems remarkably uninterested in money, luxuries or ostentation: he's more likely to be in a library reading a good book than planning how to enrich himself.

As for Joffrey and Cersei, everything he does in KL is to rein in their excesses.  After all when he gets to KL it's his stated intent to "do justice". 

Remember Allar Deem?  I'll shed no tears for a man who killed a newborn and the mother protecting her child with her life.

Tyrion was complicit in the Twincest and their three treasonous inbred bastards. He knew. He served those same triators faithfully because he thought there was something in it for him, Casterly Rock and when he was denied that, he willingly married an extremely young, hostage teenage bride to steal Winterfell. Tyrion hid behind that Golden Lion and his daddy's gold until he lost it and then he got bitter about it. The saddest part of his life is Tysha. Slapping around the future King, as bad as Joffrey was, is/was pretty stupid. He also exposed Cat at the Inn where his better judgement was that she was scared and incognito. Again he gets himself into trouble and takes no resposibility for it. Not evil like Cersei or Littlefinger, Joffrey or Tywin but he is well on his way unless he has another life altering experience.

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16 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Tyrion was complicit in the Twincest and their three treasonous inbred bastards. He knew. He served those same triators faithfully because he thought there was something in it for him, Casterly Rock and when he was denied that, he willingly married an extremely young, hostage teenage bride to steal Winterfell. Tyrion hid behind that Golden Lion and his daddy's gold until he lost it and then he got bitter about it. The saddest part of his life is Tysha. Slapping around the future King, as bad as Joffrey was, is/was pretty stupid. He also exposed Cat at the Inn where his better judgement was that she was scared and incognito. Again he gets himself into trouble and takes no resposibility for it. Not evil like Cersei or Littlefinger, Joffrey or Tywin but he is well on his way unless he has another life altering experience.

Tyrion still loves his brother Jamie and has no reason to dislike Tommen and Myrcella, they are innocent children not "treasonous inbred bastards". Is it their fault they were born of incest lol? He also has no choice but to support them will he say, as Hand of the King I proclaim Stannis is the rightful heir? Also you are speaking as if Tyrion had a choice to not marry Sansa. Also please don't put Tywin in the same category as Cersei, LF and Joffrey.

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20 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Tyrion was complicit in the Twincest and their three treasonous inbred bastards. He knew. He served those same triators faithfully because he thought there was something in it for him, Casterly Rock and when he was denied that, he willingly married an extremely young, hostage teenage bride to steal Winterfell. Tyrion hid behind that Golden Lion and his daddy's gold until he lost it and then he got bitter about it. The saddest part of his life is Tysha. Slapping around the future King, as bad as Joffrey was, is/was pretty stupid. He also exposed Cat at the Inn where his better judgement was that she was scared and incognito. Again he gets himself into trouble and takes no resposibility for it. Not evil like Cersei or Littlefinger, Joffrey or Tywin but he is well on his way unless he has another life altering experience.

How was Tyrion complicit in the twincest?  I don't think Jaime or Cersei asked his opinion on this or to lure Bobby B away so they could bang each other.

Yeah, he was loyal to his House.  Who, in story, is not? 

What he got bitter about was not losing his Daddy's gold but being framed for regicide and condemned to death for something he didn't do.  Oh and he learned the truth of his family's earlier betrayal over Tysha before finding his lover in bed with his father.  It's betrayal upon betrayal.  Who wouldn't be bitter in these circumstances?  And why close your eyes to those personally traumatic experiences and pretend it's about his gred for money?

He was surprised to see Cat at the inn and this is a hotheaded crime to beheld against him?  Marillion draws attention to her and he greets her.  I don't see why you equate this with his provoking Joffrey.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn V

The dwarf had not so much as glanced toward the far end of the room, and Catelyn was thinking how grateful she was for the crowded benches between them when suddenly Marillion bounded to his feet. "My lord of Lannister!" he called out. "I would be pleased to entertain you while you eat. Let me sing you the lay of your father's great victory at King's Landing!"
"Nothing would be more likely to ruin my supper," the dwarf said dryly. His mismatched eyes considered the singer briefly, started to move away … and found Catelyn. He looked at her for a moment, puzzled. She turned her face away, but too late. The dwarf was smiling. "Lady Stark, what an unexpected pleasure," he said. "I was sorry to miss you at Winterfell."

How exactly should he take "responsibiity for getting himself in trouble" when, just as with Joffrey's murder, he is arrested for something he didn't do?  The guy has just come from Winterfell where he showed Luwin how to make a saddle for Bran so he can ride.  Perhaps he might not expect to be arrested on sight for trying to kill the boy, hey?  Try and bring some balance to your condemnations, otherwise it looks like a selective character assassination.

And his life altering experience looks to be life as a slave and a certain naive, homely damsel in need of protection called Penny.

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22 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

How was Tyrion complicit in the twincest?  I don't think Jaime or Cersei asked his opinion on this or to lure Bobby B away so they could bang each other.

Yeah, he was loyal to his House.  Who, in story, is not? 

What he got bitter about was not losing his Daddy's gold but being framed for regicide and condemned to death for something he didn't do.  Oh and he learned the truth of his family's earlier betrayal over Tysha before finding his lover in bed with his father.  It's betrayal upon betrayal.  Who wouldn't be bitter in these circumstances?  And why close your eyes to those personally traumatic experiences and pretend it's about his gred for money?

He was surprised to see Cat at the inn and this is a hotheaded crime to beheld against him?  Marillion draws attention to her and he greets her.  I don't see why you equate this with his provoking Joffrey.

 

Tyrion knew that those kids were bastards and he fought off the true king in Stannis anyway.  this makes him as guilty as any other high level Lannister.

Shae was murdered by Tyrion out of spite. She was a paid Prostitute, not his lover. She did not love him but he was living a delusion with her.

Regarding Cat, he should have known better. When Bran fell he trolls his own family, he suspected something when he returned to Winterfell after visiting the wall, Cat was not there, his reception, and when he saw her laying low at the Inn, he should have realized that she would have been in danger if recognized from potential kidnappers (high born lady, wife to hand of King in a run of the mill Inn) and exposes her out of his pride when he should have realized there was probably a good reason for her to be there and in the state that she was. Cat

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7 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Tyrion knew that those kids were bastards and he fought off the true king in Stannis anyway.  this makes him as guilty as any other high level Lannister.

What do you presume he do that would not cost him his life? With out any proof other than his word. In order to not be "evil" according to you he should have condemned innocent children to death, condemn a brother he loved to death, all while writing his own death sentence? That's absurd. 

 

8 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Shae was murdered by Tyrion out of spite. She was a paid Prostitute, not his lover. She did not love him but he was living a delusion with her.

You are ignoring the rest of the picture though. If you are going to tell the story, tell it true. He is absolutely guilty of murdering Shae, a prostitute that he paid for & maybe was a bit delusional in regards to how she felt for him after she lied under oath, testifying against him in a trial for crime he didn't commit, after he found out the truth of Tysha, and after he found her lying in his hypocritical father's bed - whom had just allowed him to be sentenced to death for a crime he didn't commit. Is it still murder? Yes but it's quite a bit more understandable when telling the whole story. It isn't the same type of murder as Ramsay commits for an example. 

 

13 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Regarding Cat, he should have known better. When Bran fell he trolls his own family, he suspected something when he returned to Winterfell after visiting the wall, Cat was not there, his reception, and when he saw her laying low at the Inn, he should have realized that she would have been in danger if recognized from potential kidnappers (high born lady, wife to hand of King in a run of the mill Inn) and exposes her out of his pride when he should have realized there was probably a good reason for her to be there and in the state that she was. Cat

This is just ridiculous. Again, what do you propose he do about having a notion that his siblings had something to do with Bran's fall? Secondly she was in no danger from potential kidnappers so how should he have know that? He greets her. Show me any evidence in the text that suggests he "exposes her out of pride" He doesn't. 

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52 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Tyrion knew that those kids were bastards and he fought off the true king in Stannis anyway.  this makes him as guilty as any other high level Lannister.

Shae was murdered by Tyrion out of spite. She was a paid Prostitute, not his lover. She did not love him but he was living a delusion with her.

Regarding Cat, he should have known better. When Bran fell he trolls his own family, he suspected something when he returned to Winterfell after visiting the wall, Cat was not there, his reception, and when he saw her laying low at the Inn, he should have realized that she would have been in danger if recognized from potential kidnappers (high born lady, wife to hand of King in a run of the mill Inn) and exposes her out of his pride when he should have realized there was probably a good reason for her to be there and in the state that she was. Cat

Is learning after the fact that the children are bastards the same as being complicit in the twincest?  Jaime and Cersei have been sleeping together since they were children and Tyrion would have been a young child at the time, completely oblivious or uncomprehending of that.  And later the bulk of the relationship happens in secret in KL, somewhere Tyrion is not.  If you're going to say he's complicit, show where he aided and abetted the adultery or made moves to cover up the identity of the children or the fact of Jaime and Cersei's guilt.  (And I mean before Cersei offs Robert and Joffrey becomes king.  What should he do then? :blink:).

The reality is he sees and knows NOTHING but uses his wits and knowledge of his siblings to deduce that the children are Jaime's not Robert's.  And what to do then?  Condemn his brother's cildren, sweet innocent Myrcella and Tommen to death, along with his beloved brother Jaime, together with Cersei and Joffrey who he cares less for.  And would he really be spared the axe in the destruction if House Lannister anyway?  Tommen and Myrcella are his niece and nephew and innocent, lovable litttle children.  Who would have done differently when their own family's lives and their own head are on the chopping block?

Until or unless Cersei or Jaime cofesses the paternity of the children to Tyrion (does this happen in ACOK, does it ever on page? Or is it simply a decution on Tyrion's part) all he has are the same suspicions as Stannis has - and Stannis took those to Jon Arryn to look for proof and then headed to Dragonstone rather than do anything about them.  Does this make Stannis complicit in the twincest too?

Oh and I like how you bring Stannis into it.  As for choosing duty to the crown or family: remind me what choice Stannis made during Robert's rebellion?  Yup.  EVERYONE chooses family.  Even Stannis.  Even Theon.  Even Tyrion.

Shae was killed by Tyrion for bearing false testimony at his trial, in effect making up lies to get him killed.  Spite?  Riiiight.  I wonder how many people would be "spiteful" if the person they loved tried to get them killed and then moved on to sleeping with the father they despised.  Fury, vengeance, a betrayed lover's ultimate retaliation, yes.  Spite?  No, that's the wrong motive to ascribe.

Bran's fall.  Interesting.  You make Tyrion into an omniscient observer, an accomplice even, to every one of the twins' misdeeds.  Tyrion is out hunting with the rest of the royal party, he has no idea what happens to Bran.  All he has is a suspicion, based on a look between Jaime and Cersei when he announces that Luwin believes that Bran will live, that they had something to do with it.  He has no reason to believe Catelyn has made the same deduction and having been to Winterfell and found Catelyn abesnt, he has no reason to believe that her absence is a closely guarded secret for dramatic reasons.  We are in her POV so know her motives and her desire for anonymity.  He doesn't.  Given the Inn at the Crossroads is on the junction of roads between KL, WF and RR he probably assumes she has been to RR. 

And what should he do?  If he pretends not to see or recognise her what seeds does that plant in her mind as to his guilt over Bran.  There is no valid reason for two nobles of high rank and whose families are joined by the Sansa-Joffrey marriage pact to avoid each other, unless there is something fishy going on.  His greeting her warmly is intended to convey that nothing is wrong, slinking away or blanking her would only set her to wondering what he is up to.  We the readers know what Catelyn has deduced about Bran, he doesn't.  There is nothing wrong in what he does, certainly nothing rash, prideful or arrogant.

It's interesting that a lot of people fault Cat for the kidnapping that ensues but I'm not sure I've heard anyone blame Tyrion for provoking it before.  Looks like a barometer of how much someone likes / dislikes a character to fault all their actions, however normal or reasonable.

35 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What do you presume he do that would not cost him his life? With out any proof other than his word. In order to not be "evil" according to you he should have condemned innocent children to death, condemn a brother he loved to death, all while writing his own death sentence? That's absurd. 

You are ignoring the rest of the picture though. If you are going to tell the story, tell it true. He is absolutely guilty of murdering Shae, a prostitute that he paid for & maybe was a bit delusional in regards to how she felt for him after she lied under oath, testifying against him in a trial for crime he didn't commit, after he found out the truth of Tysha, and after he found her lying in his hypocritical father's bed - whom had just allowed him to be sentenced to death for a crime he didn't commit. Is it still murder? Yes but it's quite a bit more understandable when telling the whole story. It isn't the same type of murder as Ramsay commits for an example. 

This is just ridiculous. Again, what do you propose he do about having a notion that his siblings had something to do with Bran's fall? Secondly she was in no danger from potential kidnappers so how should he have know that? He greets her. Show me any evidence in the text that suggests he "exposes her out of pride" He doesn't. 

Agreed.

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40 minutes ago, Sigella said:

I'd like to remind everyone that in this thread you are allowed to air negative views on Tyrion.

 

If you have a problem with that this is not a thread for you.

 

It sounds like what you mean is that this is a thread purely for negative views about tyrion and any positive or balanced views aren't welcome.  And it seems you have a particular issue with that.

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52 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

It sounds like what you mean is that this is a thread purely for negative views about tyrion and any positive or balanced views aren't welcome.  And it seems you have a particular issue with that.

Not at all. However I dont want the topic derailed into how great/not awful he is. Its supposed to be a roast (as stated in OP) and some are acting like the offended onlooker who interupts the show.

edit: off topic: I'm intruiged by the last par you wrote before about liking equalling to forgiving and how that make us a bit hypocritical because this has actually been how I have been explaining the forum-hate towards Dany. Its was the only explanation I could think of that didnt fall to pieces.

Although I'm also pretty sure misogyny plays a part in the Dany hate and if so what is it that plays a part in hating Tyrion? Am I a dwarfisist? Dwarfophobe?

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5 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Not at all. However I dont want the topic derailed into how great/not awful he is. Its supposed to be a roast (as stated in OP) and some are acting like the offended onlooker who interupts the show.

If you want to roast Tyrion make a diss track and put it on youtube. This is forum to discuss the books and of course people will defend Tyrion when you have people saying "Tyrion helped Cersei and Jamie hide their twincest and supported their evil bastard children." This thread has no point if you are not allowed to defend Tyrion from hilarious accusations. 

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2 hours ago, Sigella said:

I'd like to remind everyone that in this thread you are allowed to air negative views on Tyrion.

 

If you have a problem with that this is not a thread for you.

 

I'm good with people airing negative views on Tyrion but when the views are unfounded & clearly not text supported there are going to be people who reject those claims & attempt to correct them.

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