Family Wealth

[The Lord of the Crossing]

3 hours ago, Deepbollywood Motte said:

How much toll do you think they ask? It's probably not like that every farmer who wants to see his brother on the other side has to pay a golden dragon to cross... A merchant ship full of cargo on the other hand would bring in a hell of a lot of tariffs and other taxes. Yes a lot of people cross the bridge but I don't think this overall income is higher than owning a city, a harbour and probably a hell of a lot more of land that the Manderlys own (I don't know how much land the Freys and the Manderlys control but the Manderlys very likely control a couple of times more than the Freys).

But the Freys control more valuable real estate.  The Frey lands are fertile.  The Twins is in a prime income-generating location and not just from one source.  The river makes their farmlands fertile, water provides transportation, allows large herds of livestock, and the bridge provides toll income. 

A northern port like White Harbor could freeze over and traffic would slow or stop altogether. 

[Curled Finger]

21 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

the wardens are the main military commanders for the realm, in each quarter of the continent. it has nothing to do with wealth, more with military ability.

Thanks for straightening me out on that.  

[Curled Finger]

13 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Certainly?

Have they paid him a single coin so far? Because I for one don't recall. With the Riverlands war-torn until very recently, where even the allies of House Lannister treat their nominal LP with disdain, and Littlefinger never busying himself to actually visit his nominal fiefdom.

Same question: do you recall him collecting any taxes from the Vale?

I thought the certainly was in response to my musings about the Hightowers and Tyrells.   Always best to wait to read it on the big screen, my friend.  

Little Finger has established a pattern of earning great wealth.   His stolen fortune alone is immense.  And he invests in business and people, perhaps earning kickbacks perhaps only information, perhaps both.   I'm thinking his personal endeavors are still active, but I can't prove something none of us know.   No, I don't think we've seen any money actually go to Little Finger, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen off page.   The Freys at least must pay something, right?  What other reason would anyone tolerate them?  There are still houses working, though diminished, in the Riverlands.  With the Lannisters and Freys in Darry and poised to take River Run, wouldn't they be responsible for familial land debt?   And you may have the right of it as well.   We just don't know.   

He's slimed nearly everyone in the Vale.  There is no reason for him to use his own cash for bribes, etc., when the Vale's coffers are healthy.   Why change stripes?   It's just a smaller place than Kings Landing.   I base my musing on a well established pattern of theft and opportunism.   In direct response, Ser, no, I haven't read Little Finger has done any of these things in his current place.   I can only offer that I haven't read he hasn't either.  

Last I saw, Bonifer Hasty was manning the fort at Harrenhall.  Perhaps he and his men do the collections.    It's an odd arrangement if I haven't forgotten he's taken his crew and gone elsewhere.   I have to be honest, I've always thought there was something very strange about this occupation by this character.  Waiting for something to come of it. 

[300 H&H Magnum]

Littlefinger makes his money from his brothels.  It is the world's oldest profession but the Freys have been collecting their toll unfailingly for hundreds of years.  I still say the Freys are richer than Littlefinger.  Walder could easily afford to give a fat daughter's weight in gold for a dowry and that is likely the biggest fortune the Boltons ever had.  So I say the Freys are in the top five. 

Walda's dowry is actually very interesting.  That amount of silver could have supported her for life in relative comfort.  So getting her married off costed Walder more money than keeping her at The Twins.  I think Walder really did want a good future for his daughter.

 

[The Wolves]

The Manderlys are much richer than the Freys. The Manderlys have several silver mines, controls one of the five cities in the realm, trade in many things like fur, sea food, wood, wool, etc..... 

The Freys get their wealth from a bridge. The Manderlys have wealth coming in from their city, silver mines, and different trades. Plus they trade with all the other cities and are really close to Bravos. 

[Lord Wraith]

2 hours ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

The Freys are more likely richer than the poorer/less affluent LPs like the Starks, Greyjoys, Martells.  They are very wealthy and I think they even exceed the wealth of the likes of the Baratheons and perhaps the Arryns. 

From a single bridge vs the taxation of a entire region of Westeros. I don't think so. To be fair I do think they are wealthier than most of the non great houses.

[Graydon Hicks]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Thanks for straightening me out on that.  

your welcome.

[Graydon Hicks]

what if we are looking at wealth the wrong way? when we are speaking of weatlh, are we talking straight up hard currency, land and property ownership, or ownership in business? and how about how they use that wealth? littlefinger has shown he's a wizard with money, when he wants to be, so i would guess most of his wealth is tied up in businesses, then titleholding of debts and contracts, then bribes and blackmails, and most of his actual hard currency is in a nest egg in a personal vault at the iron bank, with only enough on immediate hand to handle quickly needed payments for bribes and what have you.

 i think tywin might have more straight hard currency, or at least his house, than bealish, then in land, then in busniess.

i would guess the tyrell are in order of land, then currency, then business.

the argument on whether the freys are wealthier that manderly's might need perspective. i think the frey hoard the currency they collect on their tolls, which are likely quite high for something so simple, but traffic might be higher thatn we think. it is the only crossing of the green fork north of the trident, so they likely get more business than we realise. it might not look much from a map, but that portion of the riverlands might be well populated, and there might be a lot of traffic from seaguard up through the twins to reach the kings road, and on to the coast of the bite. and they have to be wealthy, for such a relatively backwoods house to be able to provide 4000 troops for robb's army. so i would guess a lot of hard cash, collected form forced tolls, limited business, they probably charge the riverboats that ply the green fork under their bridge, but i dont know how much land they actually control around the twins.

the manderlys strike me more as those who might invest their wealthy, rather than hoard it. white harbor is considered a major port in wesrteros, and the only port in the north, where the north ships out its exports, what ever they may be. i would hazard that the family invests in shipping companys, trading houses, and property ownership in the city, ans surrounding lands.. might have very little hard currency at any one time, but are still very wealthy, just have to move things around, liquidate some stuff, when they need hard cash for something.

[Lord Vance II]

I just don't see enough trade going in and out of the North to support two mid-major houses getting super rich, and between a port and a bridge, my money is on the port. A lot of the industry in the North is heavy and it doesn't make sense to ship huge amounts of wood and ore by a very long land route when you have a perfectly good port that heads out to the Narrow sea. White Harbor also has the White Knife giving it access to the interior. The Freys see enough travelers and trade to make them rich, obviously, but I think the lions share of the high-priced goods go through White Harbor. 

2 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

i think the frey hoard the currency they collect on their tolls

2 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

he manderlys strike me more as those who might invest their wealthy, rather than hoard it

I'd say this is pretty fair, leaving alone relative wealth. They're pretty classic New Money vs. Old Money, aren't they? The Manderlys haven't been in White Harbor terribly long, but they were wealthy in the Reach. The Starks took the gold they brought apparently, but they at least had a history of it. The Freys on the other hand got their money and just sat on it. The Twins sound downright spartan compared to the New Castle, leaving out how nice White Harbor is. 

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Manderly's don't have a mint. When Wyman is asking money from the Starks to build a Navy he also suggests that he be given to take charge of the matter.

Fair enough. 

[Graydon Hicks]

4 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

I'd say this is pretty fair, leaving alone relative wealth. They're pretty classic New Money vs. Old Money, aren't they? The Manderlys haven't been in White Harbor terribly long, but they were wealthy in the Reach. The Starks took the gold they brought apparently, but they at least had a history of it. The Freys on the other hand got their money and just sat on it. The Twins sound downright spartan compared to the New Castle, leaving out how nice White Harbor is. 

according to the world book, the twins are supposed very impressive as a fortress. i guess the freys of the past did spend their money building it up as  first the one castle on a single shore, then expanded to the opposing shore, and built up there as well. but, yes, its only the "one" keep, not a city, and compared to some of the other castles we have seen, its is kinda spartan on the inside. it sort of fits with what you said, after the two castles were built, the freys didnt really lavish much of the wealth they collect on interior improvements. maybe they spend it on there troops? i mean, for a relatively minor house, in the not greatly wealthy riverlands, 4000 men is a lot of men, and even when the average army size is 20,000, thats not a number to sneeze at.

[Lord Vance II]

Just now, Graydon Hicks said:

its is kinda spartan on the inside.

That's more what I meant. The description of the Merman court made it seem much more impressive than the Twins' great hall. I'm sure Walder's quarters are nice, but I just imagine hundreds of tiny grey bedrooms otherwise. 

3 minutes ago, Graydon Hicks said:

maybe they spend it on there troops? i mean, for a relatively minor house, in the not greatly wealthy riverlands, 4000 men is a lot of men, and even when the average army size is 20,000, thats not a number to sneeze at.

Sounds like a whole lot of flexing to me. Do we know how well equipped and trained the troops actually are? Or do the just amass men to appear to have the strength Lord Walder wants to project?

[Graydon Hicks]

im not sure. what do the books say? do they describe the frey troops at all? still 4000 men is still 4000 men, so it might be a matter of he wants to his neighbors to be wary of the numbers, but they may be only equipped with piss-poor armor and weapons. and i doubt many household raised armies are going to match the kind of discipline that either house lannister or house tyrell have in their troops. part of how expensive it can be to keep a large field ready army during times of peace. most simply call up levies, give basic training to as not to stab them selves in the foot, then push them forward.

and we have all seen just how, uhm, unpleasant and demanding walder frey can be, and i believe the same can be said for many of the men in his family. so he feel he needs that big an army at his call to have the respect he feels he deserves.

[Stormking902]

People hate on this forum hate to admit they are wrong lol, the Freys are wealthy they control a very profitable bridge and fertile land and can yeald 4000 men at arms which is great BUT they do not have more money then a lord who controls an actual city who makes money off EVERY merchant transaction not to mention the lands these lords hold as well and they all have bannerman who pay them even more taxs and tariffs etc. House Grafton is also richer then then the Freys its just logical to assume so period, also house Tully is 100% more wealthy since they have more land and collect taxs from all of there bannerman which include the Freys. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

16 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

People hate on this forum hate to admit they are wrong lol, the Freys are wealthy they control a very profitable bridge and fertile land and can yeald 4000 men at arms which is great BUT they do not have more money then a lord who controls an actual city who makes money off EVERY merchant transaction not to mention the lands these lords hold as well and they all have bannerman who pay them even more taxs and tariffs etc. House Grafton is also richer then then the Freys its just logical to assume so period, also house Tully is 100% more wealthy since they have more land and collect taxs from all of there bannerman which include the Freys. 

Thanks. Summarizes it well.

[Lord Varys]

The Lannisters, Hightowers, Tyrells should be the richest houses, with the Redwynes coming closely behind them. After that should come various other houses from the West where there are still quite a few gold mines, after that the lords controlling the smaller cities, the Velaryons, and the greater lords from the Reach and the Riverlands.

The Crown would also be at the top of the list due to the vast incomes they make off the taxes and tariffs paid in KL. It is the largest city in Westeros, after all. The incomes of the Crown should be the largest in the Seven Kingdoms, not just because they control the largest city but also because they get taxes from everybody else. The fact that the Lannisters and Hightowers are still richer than the Targaryens would depend on the fact that they had much more time to accumulate wealth.

Some of the other great houses are also pretty wealthy - we see this with the Baratheons and Arryns.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The Lannisters, Hightowers, Tyrells should be the richest houses, with the Redwynes coming closely behind them. After that should come various other houses from the West where there are still quite a few gold mines, after that the lords controlling the smaller cities, the Velaryons, and the greater lords from the Reach and the Riverlands.

The Crown would also be at the top of the list due to the vast incomes they make off the taxes and tariffs paid in KL. It is the largest city in Westeros, after all. The incomes of the Crown should be the largest in the Seven Kingdoms, not just because they control the largest city but also because they get taxes from everybody else. The fact that the Lannisters and Hightowers are still richer than the Targaryens would depend on the fact that they had much more time to accumulate wealth.

Some of the other great houses are also pretty wealthy - we see this with the Baratheons and Arryns.

A vassal may have a bigger net income than an overlord or king.

The Crown probably has the biggest gross income, but its expenditure exceeds its income.  I expect the income of the Hightowers and Manderlys comfortably exceeds their expenditure.  The income of the Lannisters and Tyrells must be enormous, but they may have gone heavily into debt to fund their wars.

A good real life example is John of Gaunt.  He had an income of £13-£18,000 a year, compared to Richard II who had about £40,000 a year.  But, Richard had to fund the whole government of that, so John of Gaunt was effectively much richer than his king.

[Nittanian]

Wyman offers to mint coin for Robb.

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As windy as he was vast, he began by asking Winterfell to confirm the new customs officers he had appointed for White Harbor. The old ones had been holding back silver for King's Landing rather than paying it over to the new King in the North. "King Robb needs his own coinage as well," he declared, "and White Harbor is the very place to mint it." He offered to take charge of the matter, as it please the king, and went from that to speak of how he had strengthened the port's defenses, detailing the cost of every improvement. (ACOK Bran II)

The locations and types of mines in the north are unknown, but we are told Sea Dragon Point does not have any, at least.

Quote

What does Sea Dragon have that anyone could ever want? There are no mines, no gold, no silver, not even tin or iron. The land is too wet for wheat or corn. (ADWD The Wayward Bride)

Refugees are living in White Harbor's Old Mint when Davos visits.

Quote

The huge oak-and-iron doors of the Old Mint had always been closed when Davos had been in Fishfoot Yard before, but today they stood open. Inside he glimpsed hundreds of women, children, and old men, huddled on the floor on piles of furs. Some had little cookfires going. (ADWD Davos II)

 

[Nittanian]

The Freys who accompany Roose north are described as:

Quote

Three days later, the vanguard of Roose Bolton's host threaded its way through the ruins and past the row of grisly sentinels—four hundred mounted Freys clad in blue and grey, their spearpoints glittering whenever the sun broke through the clouds. Two of old Lord Walder's sons led the van. One was brawny, with a massive jut of jaw and arms thick with muscle. The other had hungry eyes close-set above a pointed nose, a thin brown beard that did not quite conceal the weak chin beneath it, a bald head. Hosteen and Aenys. He remembered them from before he knew his name. Hosteen was a bull, slow to anger but implacable once roused, and by repute the fiercest fighter of Lord Walder's get. Aenys was older, crueler, and more clever—a commander, not a swordsman. Both were seasoned soldiers.

The northmen followed hard behind the van, their tattered banners streaming in the wind. Reek watched them pass. Most were afoot, and there were so few of them. He remembered the great host that marched south with Young Wolf, beneath the direwolf of Winterfell. Twenty thousand swords and spears had gone off to war with Robb, or near enough to make no matter, but only two in ten were coming back, and most of those were Dreadfort men.

Back where the press was thickest at the center of the column rode a man armored in dark grey plate over a quilted tunic of blood-red leather. His rondels were wrought in the shape of human heads, with open mouths that shrieked in agony. From his shoulders streamed a pink woolen cloak embroidered with droplets of blood. Long streamers of red silk fluttered from the top of his closed helm. No crannogman will slay Roose Bolton with a poisoned arrow, Reek thought when he first saw him. An enclosed wagon groaned along behind him, drawn by six heavy draft horses and defended by crossbowmen, front and rear. Curtains of dark blue velvet concealed the wagon's occupants from watching eyes.

Farther back came the baggage train—lumbering wayns laden with provisions and loot taken in the war, and carts crowded with wounded men and cripples. And at the rear, more Freys. At least a thousand, maybe more: bowmen, spearmen, peasants armed with scythes and sharpened sticks, freeriders and mounted archers, and another hundred knights to stiffen them.

This seems similar to how Cat describes Robb's host in AGOT. Some are professional, some not.

Quote

This host her son had assembled was not a standing army such as the Free Cities were accustomed to maintain, nor a force of guardsmen paid in coin. Most of them were smallfolk: crofters, fieldhands, fishermen, sheepherders, the sons of innkeeps and traders and tanners, leavened with a smattering of sellswords and freeriders hungry for plunder. When their lords called, they came … but not forever. (AGOT Catelyn VIII)

 

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

A vassal may have a bigger net income than an overlord or king.

Some might have, but certainly not all of them. Most tax revenues of the Crown are coming from the large cities and towns. And we actually don't really know how large a piece of the tax and tariff revenue cake the lords get.

The lords owning the large cities still might get a lot of other incomes by the means of rents, etc. but we don't know that the majority of the taxes from, say, Gulltown go to Graftons or rather to the Crown.

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

The Crown probably has the biggest gross income, but its expenditure exceeds its income.  I expect the income of the Hightowers and Manderlys comfortably exceeds their expenditure.  The income of the Lannisters and Tyrells must be enormous, but they may have gone heavily into debt to fund their wars.

The Crown's fortunes wax and wane with the politics of the kings, and that should be the case for the fortunes of the richer lords as well. We see this with Viserys I and Aerys II leaving a full treasury while Robert did the opposite. Viserys I was a party king and Aerys II was also not known to be niggardly. 

As for the wars, there is no hint that the Tyrells or the Lannisters indebted themselves to finance their wars. In fact, the idea that the Lannisters would ever even contemplate to take a loan from another party is insane. They are rich as hell.

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

A good real life example is John of Gaunt.  He had an income of £13-£18,000 a year, compared to Richard II who had about £40,000 a year.  But, Richard had to fund the whole government of that, so John of Gaunt was effectively much richer than his king.

Yeah, but there is no hint that the kings in Westeros have to finance all that much by themselves. If they go to war their lords provide them with their troops and they and their subjects pay for all those wars. The sole exception might have been the War of the Ninepenny Kings during which the Targaryens actually invaded foreign soil (just as Prince Daemon did earlier, financed by Corlys Velaryon and his royal brother) and thus might have been forced to actually pay more than they have to crush this or that rebellion.

[cpg2016]

17 hours ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

The Freys are more likely richer than the poorer/less affluent LPs like the Starks, Greyjoys, Martells.  They are very wealthy and I think they even exceed the wealth of the likes of the Baratheons and perhaps the Arryns. 

This is extremely doubtful.  Perhaps in the case of the Greyjoys, but still highly unlikely.

Yes, the Manderlys and Freys will have a higher per capita income, but at the end of the day, the Manderlys are only taxing a small fraction of the population of the North.  Lets say they're passing on 10% of that to their lieges.  Fine.  The Starks are still collecting their ten percent from every single Northern House.  And that's not including their direct vassals and peasants.

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

They are frequently called rich. When the daughter of one Lord Paramount and the wife of another calls them rich then it is a good bet that they are so. In the appendix GRRM descibes them as "Powerful, wealthy, and numerous, the Freys are bannermen to House Tully," In the Dunk & Egg books they are described as rich and even in the World book: "But as their wealth and influence grew, so did the Crossing. And soon the castle grew from a single tower that overlooked the bridge to two formidable towers that bracketed the river between them. These two keeps, now called the Twins, are amongst the strongest in the realm."

Yes, but the strong implication there is that they are rich only in comparison to other Lords of their status.  For example, we know Harrenhall is a richer fief, as being Lord of Harrenhall makes a man one of the greatest men of the kingdom; Petyr Baelish is of a status to marry Lysa Arryn once he's Lord of Harrenhall, whereas Walder Frey and his kids aren't considered worthy of Edmure.

No doubt the Freys are a particularly wealthy House, but it's also only because they're very new lords, presumably without much in the way of land (relatively speaking) who have derived most of their wealth from taxing trade, which the martial aristocracy of the Seven Kingdoms looks down on.

Many of the Westerlands Houses are probably quite wealthy.  The Hightowers and Redwynes are noted as being among the very wealthiest Houses in the realm.

If I had to guess, I'd say that the Lannisters and Tyrells are the two wealthiest Houses, with top spot moving depending on crop prices (Tyrells are richer in winter as they have more crop production and prices for it are higher).  After that?  The Arryns, who have large swathes of the hyper-fertile Vale.  The Redwynes and Hightowers are likely on that list as well.  After them, it's probably Starks, Baratheons, and Martells - Starks have a lot of land and resources, but not a lot of people and the land isn't very arable.  The Baratheons have less land and comparatively fewer natural resources, but the land is far more fertile.  And the Martells are tricky - what kind of export economy is there down there?  They have a ton of desirable luxury goods (like lemons), but not much arable land and not a big population thanks to Aegon I and Daeron I's invasions.  So assuming there is a big export market for that stuff in Westeros and Essos, they might be fairly wealthy.

The Tullys are poorer than the Lord of Harrenhall.  Doubtful that they're poorer than the Freys, but just on the fringe of possible.  The Manderlys are, I'm sure, quite wealthy relative to the other secondary Houses of the North, but White Harbor is still small.  I would guess many of the secondary Houses of the Reach are wealthier than the Freys and Manderlys (think the Rowans or Florents).

It's also worth mentioning what constitutes "wealth".  The Freys and Manderlys probably have relatively more free cash on hand than your average lord, whose wealth is bound up in the land.  Houses built on trade are likely to be able to support larger number of direct retainers.  But your average lord would be more likely to consider land to be the true measure of value (arable land, that is).  Which is why the Freys may have many swords in their service, but less land and fewer minor Houses or knightly Houses sworn to them.  Likewise, House Lannister is sitting on absurd gold deposits in Casterly Rock, but they don't necessarily have that cash on hand; it's still in the ground.