Family Wealth

[Bernie Mac]

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18 hours ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

The Freys are more likely richer than the poorer/less affluent LPs like the Starks, Greyjoys, Martells.  They are very wealthy and I think they even exceed the wealth of the likes of the Baratheons and perhaps the Arryns. 

While Dorne is likely poor the Martells seem to be quite rich. They have Dorne's major town, port and river situated int heir lands, the Water Gardens as well as Sunspear and we see various  children of free city dignitary children under Doran's care. 

 

17 hours ago, The Wolves said:

The Manderlys are much richer than the Freys. 

We have no idea if they are. We only know that they are the wealthiest Northern House. 

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Plus they trade with all the other cities and are really close to Bravos. 

Where is it mentioned in the books that they are very close with Bravos? I think that is something you are likely to have read on the forum than in the books. 

Of the two Houses it is only the Frey's we know of who have a solid connection to Braavos as one of Walder's sons is married to Betharios of Braavos. 

""You saw them, the arrogant Ser Jared and his nephew Rhaegar, that smirking worm who wears a dragon's name. Behind them both stands Symond, clinking coins. That one has bought and paid for several of my servants and two of my knights. One of his wife's handmaids has found her way into the bed of my own fool. If Stannis wonders that my letters say so little, it is because I dare not even trust my maester"

Now this quote is interesting for two reasons, that the Freys are easily able to influence the Manderly's court with their wealth and that Symond's, who is about 50th in line to inherit, wife has as many handmaidens as we have see with Cat Stark or Sansa in the series. 

 

10 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

 i mean, for a relatively minor house,

eh? The books call them the most powerful vassal House in the Riverlands. 

House Frey might have abandoned the King in the North, but the Lord of the Crossing remained the most powerful of Riverrun's bannermen, and Lothar was here in his stead.

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in the not greatly wealthy riverlands,

Where do you get the idea that the Riverlands are not wealthy? Here is how GRRM describes the Riverlands; "The riverlands are rich and fertile and populous, but suffer from divided leadership and a lack of natural boundaries".

And of course the World book point out that they are either the second or third most populace realm in Westeros. They would only be behind the Westerlands and Reach in terms of wealth. 

10 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

 and compared to some of the other castles we have seen, its is kinda spartan on the inside.

Are you thinking of the show here or the books? Can you give these descriptions so we can compare?

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

 

Yes, but the strong implication there is that they are rich only in comparison to other Lords of their status.

There are only nine Lords who have a higher status than them.  And of course some of these Nine Lords are going to be less wealthy than some of their own vassals. 

And of course the Freys, along with the Hightowers, Royces and Vances, are one of the few Houses that have actual Lords as their own vassals. 

Rich is rich. And no, that is not the implication. GRRM has mentioned their wealth in the appendix and waith various characters. They are a wealthy House. Perhaps not one of the top five, but certainly a notably wealthy House in Westeros. 

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 For example, we know Harrenhall is a richer fief,

No it is not. Maybe it originally was, back when it was given to Lord Qoherys, but it's lands have been reduced the previous times it has changed hands. Can you provide the citation from the books where it is claimed that it is a richer fief?

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as being Lord of Harrenhall makes a man one of the greatest men of the kingdom; Petyr Baelish is of a status to marry Lysa Arryn once he's Lord of Harrenhall, whereas Walder Frey and his kids aren't considered worthy of Edmure.

Of course they are. Hoster disliked the Freys (well Walder) for personal reasons more than anything else. Yet he did consider marrying his brother to a Frey and of course Edmure did end up marrying a Frey, so this argument seems a little dumb. 

We even know that one of the suitors for the heir of the realm, Rhaenyra Targaryen, was Forrest Frey.  A daughter of Hoster's most powerful vassal is a suitable match for his son. 

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No doubt the Freys are a particularly wealthy House, but it's also only because they're very new lords, presumably without much in the way of land 

Their lands are huge. Hags Mire and Sevenstreams are two villages on the other side of the Blue Fork that are under the Frey's control. When Robb is travelling to the Twins it takes him, roughly, another two weeks after passing these Frey villages to get there. And of course there does not seem to be any significant Lords North of them to the North border. 

Here is the Riverlands map http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Riverlands The Freys seem to have a huge amount of land situated between both the Blue and Green Fork. 

The Freys have a huge advantage over the central/Southern Riverland Houses like the Tullys, Blackwoods, Brackens, Pipers and Vances who are all pretty close neighbours. 

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Many of the Westerlands Houses are probably quite wealthy.  The Hightowers and Redwynes are noted as being among the very wealthiest Houses in the realm.

Yup. Not sure how this disagres with anything I have said. 

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If I had to guess, I'd say that the Lannisters and Tyrells are the two wealthiest Houses, with top spot moving depending on crop prices

According to the author the Lannisters are. Their nearest competitors are the Hightowers, not the Tyrells and a few centuries ago the Velaryons were up there as well. 

Being an Overlord, just like being a King in our own medieval times, does not automatically make someone richer than their vassals. Common misconception. 

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The Tullys are poorer than the Lord of Harrenhall.

Where is that stated?

The previous Lords of Harrenhal were not believed to have the money to stage their own Tourney.  While this does not make them poor it certianly does not make them richer than the Tullys. I'm sorry, but citation is needed for this claim. 

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But your average lord would be more likely to consider land to be the true measure of value (arable land, that is)

Which I wholeheartedly agree with. The Freys have a lot of arable land. 

[The Wolves]

46 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

While Dorne is likely poor the Martells seem to be quite rich. They have Dorne's major town, port and river situated int heir lands, the Water Gardens as well as Sunspear and we see various  children of free city dignitary children under Doran's care. 

 

We have no idea if they are. We only know that they are the wealthiest Northern House. 

Where is it mentioned in the books that they are very close with Bravos? I think that is something you are likely to have read on the forum than in the books. 

Of the two Houses it is only the Frey's we know of who have a solid connection to Braavos as one of Walder's sons is married to Betharios of Braavos. 

""You saw them, the arrogant Ser Jared and his nephew Rhaegar, that smirking worm who wears a dragon's name. Behind them both stands Symond, clinking coins. That one has bought and paid for several of my servants and two of my knights. One of his wife's handmaids has found her way into the bed of my own fool. If Stannis wonders that my letters say so little, it is because I dare not even trust my maester"

Now this quote is interesting for two reasons, that the Freys are easily able to influence the Manderly's court with their wealth and that Symond's, who is about 50th in line to inherit, wife has as many handmaidens as we have see with Cat Stark or Sansa in the series. 

 

eh? The books call them the most powerful vassal House in the Riverlands. 

House Frey might have abandoned the King in the North, but the Lord of the Crossing remained the most powerful of Riverrun's bannermen, and Lothar was here in his stead.

Where do you get the idea that the Riverlands are not wealthy? Here is how GRRM describes the Riverlands; "The riverlands are rich and fertile and populous, but suffer from divided leadership and a lack of natural boundaries".

And of course the World book point out that they are either the second or third most populace realm in Westeros. They would only be behind the Westerlands and Reach in terms of wealth. 

Are you thinking of the show here or the books? Can you give these descriptions so we can compare?

There are only nine Lords who have a higher status than them.  And of course some of these Nine Lords are going to be less wealthy than some of their own vassals. 

And of course the Freys, along with the Hightowers, Royces and Vances, are one of the few Houses that have actual Lords as their own vassals. 

Rich is rich. And no, that is not the implication. GRRM has mentioned their wealth in the appendix and waith various characters. They are a wealthy House. Perhaps not one of the top five, but certainly a notably wealthy House in Westeros. 

No it is not. Maybe it originally was, back when it was given to Lord Qoherys, but it's lands have been reduced the previous times it has changed hands. Can you provide the citation from the books where it is claimed that it is a richer fief?

Of course they are. Hoster disliked the Freys (well Walder) for personal reasons more than anything else. Yet he did consider marrying his brother to a Frey and of course Edmure did end up marrying a Frey, so this argument seems a little dumb. 

We even know that one of the suitors for the heir of the realm, Rhaenyra Targaryen, was Forrest Frey.  A daughter of Hoster's most powerful vassal is a suitable match for his son. 

Their lands are huge. Hags Mire and Sevenstreams are two villages on the other side of the Blue Fork that are under the Frey's control. When Robb is travelling to the Twins it takes him, roughly, another two weeks after passing these Frey villages to get there. And of course there does not seem to be any significant Lords North of them to the North border. 

Here is the Riverlands map http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Riverlands The Freys seem to have a huge amount of land situated between both the Blue and Green Fork. 

The Freys have a huge advantage over the central/Southern Riverland Houses like the Tullys, Blackwoods, Brackens, Pipers and Vances who are all pretty close neighbours. 

Yup. Not sure how this disagres with anything I have said. 

According to the author the Lannisters are. Their nearest competitors are the Hightowers, not the Tyrells and a few centuries ago the Velaryons were up there as well. 

Being an Overlord, just like being a King in our own medieval times, does not automatically make someone richer than their vassals. Common misconception. 

Where is that stated?

The previous Lords of Harrenhal were not believed to have the money to stage their own Tourney.  While this does not make them poor it certianly does not make them richer than the Tullys. I'm sorry, but citation is needed for this claim. 

Which I wholeheartedly agree with. The Freys have a lot of arable land. 

If you look at the maps of Westeros you will see that besides Gultown(which is the nearest Westeros city to Braavos)White Harbor is the next Westeros city that is closest to Braavos. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

Seems like this topic comes up every 6 months or so. And as I have outlined before, consider the main source of the Freys' wealth, as stated by the books. It is not their lands or produce. It is their toll bridge. That is what differentiates them from House Blackwood, or House Vance or Mallister. All of the others have lands and produce too. It is the Freys' toll bridge that made them wealthier than the other Riverland vassal Houses.

So, that means that they toll whichever trade passes through their toll bridge. So let's consider which trade will actually flow through the Twins. And once you study the map, you realise the Twins don't actually monoplize a whole lot of inter-regional trade. Its main claim to fame is that it is the conduit through which all travel between the North and the western Riverlands has to go through. Ok, that sounds like an important trade route on the face of it, until you realise that all of this land trade between the North and the Riverlands proper would have had to pass through Moat Cailin first. Yes, you no doubt remember the bustling trade thoroughfare that is Moat Cailin, right...No, actually you don't, because in fact comparatively little trade seems to pass through there.

And to make matters worse, only a fraction of the trade that does pass through Moat Caiiln will end up going through the Twins. Because the bulk of it will be going to the Crownlands. With a fair chunk of the remainder probably going to the Vale. And then a portion of the remainder will go to Saltpans, or Duskendale or Maidenpool etc. So at best, I would say that perhaps 20% of the trade that passes through Moat Cailin ends up going through the Twins.

So really, the Twins will receive maybe a fifth of the trade that goes through the metropolis of Moat Cailin, plus whatever interior travel there is between the western Riverlands and the small, largely townless part of the far northeastern Riverlands lying to the east of the Twins, bordered by the Neck and the foothills of the Mountains of the Vale. That would hardly be 10% of the internal trade within the Riverlands. Where is there to travel to east of the Twins, other than Moat Calin? And that trade we have already counted above.

So in short, the Twins don't really connect any areas of importance. Compare that to White Harbor, which conducts probably 80-90% of the North's trade, is a city of tens of thousands and commands the main transport artery into the heart of the North, which is the White Knife.

It is really obvious that the Manderlys are far wealthier than the Freys.

 

[Bernie Mac]

17 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

If you look at the maps of Westeros you will see that besides Gultown(which is the nearest Westeros city to Braavos)White Harbor is the next Westeros city that is closest to Braavos. 

Oh you meant close as in distance, not close as in regular traders. Though there is not actually too much distance between Kings Landing and Braavos, they actually may be the shorter sea route than the trickier passage to White Harbor. 

And of course distance has little to do with trade. It is where they can make the most profit. 

 

12 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

It is really obvious that the Manderlys are far wealthier than the Freys.

 

It really is not. And adding 'far' is laughable as the North as a region is undoubtedly poorer than the Riverlands. 

What we do know is that the Freys and Manderlys appear to be the richest Houses of their respective regions. I doubt the difference in their respective wealth's is 'far'. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

10 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Oh you meant close as in distance, not close as in regular traders. Though there is not actually too much distance between Kings Landing and Braavos, they actually may be the shorter sea route than the trickier passage to White Harbor. 

And of course distance has little to do with trade. It is where they can make the most profit. 

 

It really is not. And adding 'far' is laughable as the North as a region is undoubtedly poorer than the Riverlands. 

What we do know is that the Freys and Manderlys appear to be the richest Houses of their respective regions. I doubt the difference in their respective wealth's is 'far'. 

But it is. The comparative wealth of the North and the Riverlands is not the issue. The Manderlys command a city. The gap between the Manderlys and the next wealthiest Northern House is simply far greater than the gap between the Freys and the next wealthiest Riverland House. So the average Riverland House would still be wealthier than the average Northern House. That doesn't change the nature of the Manderlys' wealth and asset base. The comparative wealth of the two regions does not dictate that the wealthiest Riverland House must be wealthier than the wealthiest Northern House.

In fact, the World Book alludes to the fact that the reason the Riverlands lacks a city is that its divided nature made its ancient Kings unwilling to issue city charters to places like Fairmarket, Maidenpool, Lord Harroway's town etc, which would have seen those lords grow to powerful. This meant that the Riverlands has a large number of trade towns, rather than one trade city as the North does. So by default, the wealth of the North is concentrated to a far greater extent in House Manderly, whereas in the Riverlands it is balanced more evently between a number of Houses.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I wonder how much wealth House Velaryon has left. There isn't much information about them between The Dance of the Dragons and Aerys II, and even in the books now they're fairly mysterious. 

[cpg2016]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

There are only nine Lords who have a higher status than them.  And of course some of these Nine Lords are going to be less wealthy than some of their own vassals. 

This is not true.  It's confusing, because GRRM didn't want to have multiple ranks of lords, which he thought would be confusing, but the hierarchy within Westeros is pretty clear.  The Freys are considered lowly because their lineage only goes back 600 years or so.  Having royal blood makes you more respectable than your peers.  Not having commoners in your line makes you more prestigious.  The Freys are considered upjumped toll collectors.

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And of course the Freys, along with the Hightowers, Royces and Vances, are one of the few Houses that have actual Lords as their own vassals. 

Where are you getting this?  Tons of houses, in fact most of those we hear of, likely have lordly Houses sworn to them.  The Rowans have House Webber.  The Dustins have House Stout.  The nature of feudalism is such that any large, important lord is certain to have many lesser lords sworn to them.  The Tarlys have House Hunt.  The Woolfields seem to be sworn to the Manderlys.  I can go on, but I assume you take my point.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Being an Overlord, just like being a King in our own medieval times, does not automatically make someone richer than their vassals. Common misconception.

No, of course not.  But it makes it highly likely.  House Tully and House Tyrell are likely to be the only exceptions, if at all (and I'm not sure about Tyrell), because they aren't the "true" or historical power brokers of their respective region, but essentially Targaryen-appointed governors.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Where is that stated?

The previous Lords of Harrenhal were not believed to have the money to stage their own Tourney.  While this does not make them poor it certianly does not make them richer than the Tullys. I'm sorry, but citation is needed for this claim. 

Harrenhal was one of the richest plums in the Seven Kingdoms, its lands broad and rich and fertile,

There is nothing that states canonically that Harrenhal is wealthier than the Tully lands.  But it makes sense.  The Tully's are considered powerful but not particularly notable vassals of the Hoare's.  Of the remaining Houses, the Blackwoods and Brackens are noted as having been particular contenders for the throne of the Riverlands, and Harrenhal was the royal fief.  It makes sense that it would have been richer than the lands the Tully's controlled, else the Hoare's wouldn't have been able to keep control of their vassals.  And all of Harrenhal's income was given to the Qoherys'.

Even if they have nothing west of Harrenhal proper, their lands extend around the Gods Eye and east to the Crownlands.  That is a truly massive fief.  It's considered wealthy enough that it can serve as a respectable Lord Paramount's seat.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Which I wholeheartedly agree with. The Freys have a lot of arable land. 

You'll have to cite this in return.  All we know about the Frey;s is that they can raise 4,000 men, and that they are wealthy in large part because of the toll duties they charge.  Not entirely, I understand, but surely they derive vastly less income from their land relative to trade than almost all other Houses.  House Dondarrion was able to raise somewhat more than that (about 4,800) in the Dunk and Egg stories.  House Florent can raise 2,000 men, and they are a "tertiary" House of the Reach.

The Freys have a great deal of wealth and are certainly among the more powerful vassals in the Riverlands.  But that doesn't necessarily mean they have a ton of land; they have lots of ready cash, but that doesn't translate to land, as there is no free market in land in feudal societies.

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

This is not true.  It's confusing, because GRRM didn't want to have multiple ranks of lords, which he thought would be confusing, but the hierarchy within Westeros is pretty clear.  The Freys are considered lowly because their lineage only goes back 600 years or so.  Having royal blood makes you more respectable than your peers.  Not having commoners in your line makes you more prestigious.  The Freys are considered upjumped toll collectors.

Where are you getting this?  Tons of houses, in fact most of those we hear of, likely have lordly Houses sworn to them.  The Rowans have House Webber.  The Dustins have House Stout.  The nature of feudalism is such that any large, important lord is certain to have many lesser lords sworn to them.  The Tarlys have House Hunt.  The Woolfields seem to be sworn to the Manderlys.  I can go on, but I assume you take my point.

No, of course not.  But it makes it highly likely.  House Tully and House Tyrell are likely to be the only exceptions, if at all (and I'm not sure about Tyrell), because they aren't the "true" or historical power brokers of their respective region, but essentially Targaryen-appointed governors.

Harrenhal was one of the richest plums in the Seven Kingdoms, its lands broad and rich and fertile,

There is nothing that states canonically that Harrenhal is wealthier than the Tully lands.  But it makes sense.  The Tully's are considered powerful but not particularly notable vassals of the Hoare's.  Of the remaining Houses, the Blackwoods and Brackens are noted as having been particular contenders for the throne of the Riverlands, and Harrenhal was the royal fief.  It makes sense that it would have been richer than the lands the Tully's controlled, else the Hoare's wouldn't have been able to keep control of their vassals.  And all of Harrenhal's income was given to the Qoherys'.

Even if they have nothing west of Harrenhal proper, their lands extend around the Gods Eye and east to the Crownlands.  That is a truly massive fief.  It's considered wealthy enough that it can serve as a respectable Lord Paramount's seat.

You'll have to cite this in return.  All we know about the Frey;s is that they can raise 4,000 men, and that they are wealthy in large part because of the toll duties they charge.  Not entirely, I understand, but surely they derive vastly less income from their land relative to trade than almost all other Houses.  House Dondarrion was able to raise somewhat more than that (about 4,800) in the Dunk and Egg stories.  House Florent can raise 2,000 men, and they are a "tertiary" House of the Reach.

The Freys have a great deal of wealth and are certainly among the more powerful vassals in the Riverlands.  But that doesn't necessarily mean they have a ton of land; they have lots of ready cash, but that doesn't translate to land, as there is no free market in land in feudal societies.

Two things.

First, you are correct. Almost all vassal houses to Lords Paramount have vassal lords sworn to them in turn. House Manderly has 12 vassal lords in fact.

Secondly. House Dondarrion did not raise 4800 men on their own. That was their combined might together with another Stormland House. House Caron, it might have been, but I could be misremembering the correct name.

So 4000 is a very strong House. But there are clearly Houses that are even stronger. House Manderly seems to be one such House.