Jump to content

jon's possiblities


Graydon Hicks

Recommended Posts

Good point about the rot in the KG that would had allowed a promising boy in.

But this predates Bobby - started with Aerys and Jaime. The Lannister was what - 16? - an above average swordsman, but still a boy. Taken in partly to piss off Tywin, partly as hostage.

Jon would fit right into such a KG ...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Eddard was too honourable and - in this case - too wise to turn Jon Snow into a Stark: 

1) He knows Jon is not a Stark.

2) Ned would have to lie to his King to have any change in status proclaimed.  

3) it could replace his true heir Robb, with someone 6th in line

Getting King Robert's permission to proclaim Jon as a Targaryen wasn't likely to win him any favours either.

Ned saw the Barratheon dynasty as safe and the Targs as obsolete.  He promised to tell Jon the truth about his mother the next time they met, which would have been after Jon took his vows and removed himself from any claim to the Crown..

Many lords blessed with more than 'an heir and a spare' sent their sons to the Citadel or the Wall or the Sept.  Eddard always set an honourable example and his permission for Jon to take the black came with a few other pragmatic bonuses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Graydon Hicks said:

well the KG began with Aegon 1, at visenya's suggestion. i believe someone tried to get at him, and it was visenya that stopped the attack. he questioned why he should ahve dedicated bodyguards, or something, and she went on to kick the ass of the guards he did have, to drive the point he need a dedicate, elite guard force. its in the world book, i just dont remember the passage very well.

Well kings and royal family died/were assassinated even after the KG were set up. Don’t take me wrong, Visenya was right to force Aegon into taking his security seriously. Aegon was the typical ‘my smile and my dragon will sort everything’ kind of guy. Thanks to him the Targs ended up with the lousiest region in Westeros under their direct command + If it wasn’t for her, Aegon wouldn’t even bother putting walls around KL as well. 


Having said that, I don’t think that a sacred order built around the seven and with oaths that serve a lifetime is the correct way to go. 
a-    Seven people are too few. Hence the king was forced to rely on the Gold cloaks which were lousy at best and corrupt at worst
b-    People grow old or get injured. What’s the point of having a 70 year old KG or someone who lost an arm around?


If I was Robert I would have moved the capital city from KL to Storm’s end unifying the Stormlands, the crownlands and Dragonstone in one big region.  Storm’s end is a proper fortress and the people there are loyal to the stags not to the Lannisters or the Lannisters. The Gold cloaks would be abolished and the KG rules will be reformed to one day become a small but efficient full time standing army. Smallfolk who might be too poor to feed their own sons will be invited by the king (in exchange for compensation) to leave their sons age 4 to 6 on a totally voluntary basis to be turned into elite bodyguards. These people will be given proper education (based mostly but not uniquely on military training), proper food and a roof over their head. At age 20 they will become KG were they will be paid adequately. Their vows will be pretty much the same but will end at age 50-60 where the KG will retire with a proper pension which is extended to their wife (widow pension) once they die. That alone would be enough for them to find a decent young wife to marry and build a family. Surely the king of Westeros can afford a 5k army like that.

That will most probably attract some noblemen's attention who would wish to get rid of some undesirable bastard son hush hush while ensuring that he will be treated well. 
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

i have the impression that ned might have been more afraid of tywin over this than robert. robert's reaction might have been a toss up. he might have let the boy, its lyanna son, and her had cared so deeply for her. but its also rhaegar's son, dragonspawn, and that legendary baratheon temper would have made robert very dangerous if he went the "Its dragonspawn!" route. and ned just couldnt risk it, not with a new wife, and both a newborn son and newborn nephew to care for.

 

Let's also remember that Robert would have seen this child as a product of RAPE on his beloved, and would have surely used that as justification for the child's life as well. And  I agree, he probably wouldn't have bloodied his hands himself - but there are a number of possibilities there. At the very least, there is enough reason to believe Jon would be in danger.

 

9 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

i was wondering, in the event that the circumstances of canon didnt happen, and i mean that ned didnt go south and die, robb didnt go to war, and jon was left with options other than going to the wall to get away from catelyn's dislike, what might jon have done with his life?

i was thinking ned might be willing to have him squire under a knight or lord he trusted, til jon could be knighted in his own right. or he could have decided to take ship and go to essos and be sellsword, or ned might even renovate an old ruin somwhere, and let jon begin his own life outside winterfell. what do yall think?

I think about this a lot, mainly because in hindsight I always wonder what led Jon to feel so strongly about the NW at that moment of desperation. He must of felt like there wasn't much chance at honor otherwise; or perhaps he was feeling jealous of his half siblings at that moment below them on the benches and didn't want any honor that would only come from their relation. Joining the NW you remove your surname - and your honor is your own. I think Jon would have felt that way sooner or later - it just depends on if Ned would have supported it without becoming HotK. I think eventually he might have; Jon would be close enough to visit every now and again, he could have a place of honor, and would be further out of reach from enemies and his identity better protected with that surname removal. His destiny might always have been the NW.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, devilish said:

Jon Snow starting going out of track when he was ordered by a living legend ( Qhorin ) to do so. If Jon Snow had Selmy as tutor then rest assured than he would have remained as straight as an arrow as most Starks are. That of course, unless, the next king is the mad king v2. If Joffrey hurts Sansa then there's a big chance that we'll have a kingslayer V2

Any kind of commitment that could conflict with the interest of the Starks would cause issues for Jon.  The ruler he serves might pass a judgment that doesn't serve the Stark interest.  Jon would betray his ruler.  Best to send him off to a farm and let him tend goats.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jon would have eventually ended up in the Nights Watch, Ned going South just sped things up.  Jon grew up in relative peace with the only threat coming from the Wildlings in the North.  The Wall and the Watch are a very big part of the North and Jon is brought up on stories of the valiant men who served there.  Being a bastard and not being able to inherit Winterfell, the Nights Watch is the place where he can pursue his own glory. 

He idolized Benjen and would have eventually followed this path, just a little older I suspect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i just think that while jon wanted to go the wall, ned might have been less likely to approve if it wasnt for having to leave winterfell himself. i have suspicion he might have hoped to see jon, that last targaryen of rhaegar's line, having some children of his own.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 11:39 AM, TMIFairy said:

Good point about the rot in the KG that would had allowed a promising boy in.

But this predates Bobby - started with Aerys and Jaime. The Lannister was what - 16? - an above average swordsman, but still a boy. Taken in partly to piss off Tywin, partly as hostage.

Jon would fit right into such a KG ...

16 is not 14 Jaime had already squired in a conflict and won a tourey.

Jon was promising in what way? The impression I get was he was no different than any other lords son at that age.  He shows promise now that he has proven himself in battle and wants to improve, but I doubt he is on a par with Loras even now.  He might make the grade in a few years, but at 14 he would have needed to squire then accumulate tourney and real battel experiences before being conciderd at a reasonable age of 18 or older.

 

On another point there seems to be a consensus around the nobles that the NW vowes may not be for life.  Several characters have played with the idea of Jon being released from his vowe, (does Cersi say something similar? although she probably would have just let him hang out to dry)there does not seem to be a precedent but they all seem to suggest if they send enough men to the watch they can trade for Jon.  If this was the case did Ned expect this to be an option for Jon, far from being a life sentance he was simply being put on ice (pun intended)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Any kind of commitment that could conflict with the interest of the Starks would cause issues for Jon.  The ruler he serves might pass a judgment that doesn't serve the Stark interest.  Jon would betray his ruler.  Best to send him off to a farm and let him tend goats.

Jon is a Snow. He was raised a Stark and might like the Stark ways but it was made pretty obvious to him that he's not a Stark. Some people might finally rebel to that as Theon did. Others, might just bend the knee and obey. Which I feel is exactly what Jon would have done as KG.

Being KG is an enormous honour. The Starks are sulkers to legends as we've seen how Ned treat Selmy, a man with barely any noble blood in him. Jon would have loved being Selmy's brother at arms. My only worry is Joffrey whose a monster, something Jon would probably not stick to for long. There again, if I remember well, Olenna had the same concerns about Loras and there was every chance for Jamie to put Robert to the sword if the fat stag mistreated Cersei in front of him.

Having said that, I think that one of the biggest mistakes the Starks had done was not to do enough to make second sons feel important. Kevan was Tywin's most trusted no 2, Brynden lead the Riverlands when Edmure lost and Oberyn provided the sword arm to Doran's wisdom. God knows how important Uncle Benjen would have been if he was close to Robb in times of need. Robb was the Warden of the North whose sworn to a Baratheon King and whose aim was to rescue Ned, Sansa and Arya. He's neither a King nor a the protector of a land who can't rely on all its bannermen and family in time of need. That's something Robb needed to hear, an advice which neither his ultra nationalistic advisers nor his spineless and desperate Riverlands allies were willing to give. 

Same thing about Jon. God knows how much Robb needed his half brother to take care of Bran and to make sure that Wintefell doesn't fall. The boy was so green that he pisses grass + he was crippled. There's no way he could lead the North without adequate help. That's something Jon could have provided.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, devilish said:

Jon is a Snow. He was raised a Stark and might like the Stark ways but it was made pretty obvious to him that he's not a Stark. Some people might finally rebel to that as Theon did. Others, might just bend the knee and obey. Which I feel is exactly what Jon would have done as KG.

Being KG is an enormous honour. The Starks are sulkers to legends as we've seen how Ned treat Selmy, a man with barely any noble blood in him. Jon would have loved being Selmy's brother at arms. My only worry is Joffrey whose a monster, something Jon would probably not stick to for long. There again, if I remember well, Olenna had the same concerns about Loras and there was every chance for Jamie to put Robert to the sword if the fat stag mistreated Cersei in front of him.

Having said that, I think that one of the biggest mistakes the Starks had done was not to do enough to make second sons feel important. Kevan was Tywin's most trusted no 2, Brynden lead the Riverlands when Edmure lost and Oberyn provided the sword arm to Doran's wisdom. God knows how important Uncle Benjen would have been if he was close to Robb in times of need. Robb was the Warden of the North whose sworn to a Baratheon King and whose aim was to rescue Ned, Sansa and Arya. He's neither a King nor a the protector of a land who can't rely on all its bannermen and family in time of need. That's something Robb needed to hear, an advice which neither his ultra nationalistic advisers nor his spineless and desperate Riverlands allies were willing to give. 

Same thing about Jon. God knows how much Robb needed his half brother to take care of Bran and to make sure that Wintefell doesn't fall. The boy was so green that he pisses grass + he was crippled. There's no way he could lead the North without adequate help. That's something Jon could have provided.

 

Jon would take the oaths and there will be no issues unless the king does something that conflicts with Stark interest.  That has always been Jon's problem and it is what makes him totally unfit for command.  KG is not the best place for that guy.  His best fit is with the free folk.  He can tend goats in the Gift and live with Arya.  They can do as they please and live like man and wife if they so choose.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

16 is not 14 Jaime had already squired in a conflict and won a tourey.

Jon was promising in what way? The impression I get was he was no different than any other lords son at that age.  He shows promise now that he has proven himself in battle and wants to improve, but I doubt he is on a par with Loras even now.  He might make the grade in a few years, but at 14 he would have needed to squire then accumulate tourney and real battel experiences before being conciderd at a reasonable age of 18 or older.

Your are correct - I was not very clear in my post. And too optimistic - Jon at 14 in the KG would be like Obama's Peace Prize.

Thinking of it - hadn't there been a TEN YEAR old Stark Lord Commander of the NW? Now, that's precocious ...

On another point there seems to be a consensus around the nobles that the NW vowes may not be for life.  Several characters have played with the idea of Jon being released from his vows

Maybe because he was a volunteer?

Or simply the rules are for the little people?

A hypothesis I've seen on a another thread was that if the Heir to some House was in the NW then it would had been possible to get him out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 28/06/2017 at 0:10 PM, Graydon Hicks said:

i think there is an inherent weakness int he KG oath. all too often, its starts off with true knights under a good king, but turns into a gang of thugs under someone corrupt or cruel, the way it did under robert and joffrey.

That is true of all oaths. There is no honor, or legitimacy I would say, if the man you serve is not honorable. Aerys or Joffrey or Ramsey. An oath should never be put above your morality, your values. I believe GRRM message here is holding an oath against your volition equates to slavery. One of many forms of  coercion in ASoIaF.

See Cat words when she received Brienne oath. The oath was not preventing to Brienne to seek vengeance from Stannis. Nor was it, IMO, for life.

And I vow that you shall always have a place by my hearth and meat and mead at my table, and pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you into dishonor.

 

About Jon. Squiring and knights is not much for the North. A thing of the Seven. Ned could surely have found a house, far from KL, with too many daughters. Is there still a Mormont girl about Jon's age and single? Or in the Mountains clans? Could find them some lands and castle. I'm sure many small lords would be pleased to bring the Stark blood in the family.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Wiki says that Lyra and Jorelle Mormont were born between 277 and 289AC - at least one could be around Jon's age.

As both are campaigning (?) in the South with Maege they probably had not been born later then 284(?) 286(?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

well, is there any information on an age limit for fostering? i have always felt that the first men culture looks more, not kindly so to speak, but less derogatorily on bastard status, than the andal culture to the south. so what if ned had jon fostered out for a couple of years, to one of the northern lords, or maybe to friends of his in the vale? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fostering as in "dump undesired child on somebody" starts at birth, or even before if the expecting woman is sent somewhere.

Fostering as in "send child to learn something and build networking ties" starts at eight years or so.

Either should end (?) with coming of age, i.e. 16.

 

Fate of bastards in the south varies a lot - IMO one can find examples from th whole spectrum there.

From a high end represented by House Connington or the Freys to the bottom represented by Robert Baratheon.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Jon would take the oaths and there will be no issues unless the king does something that conflicts with Stark interest.  That has always been Jon's problem and it is what makes him totally unfit for command.  KG is not the best place for that guy.  His best fit is with the free folk.  He can tend goats in the Gift and live with Arya.  They can do as they please and live like man and wife if they so choose.  

A decent king would have no issues with the Starks whatsoever. Why would he? The Starks are loyal subjects, who administer the most wild region in Westeros admirably and who love staying out of Westerosi politics. Ned Stark is one of the main reasons why there's a Baratheon king in the first place. 

Also note that Jon did took decisions against the Starks. Stannis offered him the surname and the title which would have given the Starks a second shot to seize Winterfell and the North back. He refused. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

...

Fate of bastards in the south varies a lot - IMO one can find examples from th whole spectrum there.

From a high end represented by House Connington or the Freys to the bottom represented by Robert Baratheon.

 

Robert Baratheon loved his bastards and wanted to bring them to court - I think there's a line from Cersei saying she made it clear that any bastards at court would come to a bad end.

Robert also forgets his bastards really easily - but someone was making sure they had a good start in life: Edric, Gendry and Mya were all looked after.

Anyway, fostering for Jon would absolutely have been the best option. Why not Howland Reed? - that would have been perfect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

The Wiki says that Lyra and Jorelle Mormont were born between 277 and 289AC - at least one could be around Jon's age.

As both are campaigning (?) in the South with Maege they probably had not been born later then 284(?) 286(?)

Yes, I knew these 2. They are with their mother. Seem unmarried to me. Wylla Manderly, second daughter Wylis would be a good choice too. Wyman should have the usage of able men. And the girl seems to positively love the Starks. But White Harbor is too close to KL and a too busy place IMO. And Jon is too old for fostering.

Greywater Watch would have been perfect. Meera could have been a possible match too. In fact, I don't understand why Ned didn't give the baby to Howland from the start. Must have been an explicit request from Lyanna.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/28/2017 at 4:24 AM, devilish said:

Ned should have asked Robert to legitimise him. Cat wouldn't like it but there again she hardly can dictate what her husband does in his own house. As Jon Stark, Walder Frey would have loved to see him marry to a Frey. That would stick one to Hoster who keeps insulting him while securing his position against a possibly vindictive LP. Ned, on the other hand, would secure a friend in Walder who will guarantee quick/safe passage to the South just in case the North needs it. 

If Ned wish not to see Cat sulking, then there's various roles Jon could take. He could have used his influence to have him appointed as a member of the KG for example. 

Jon gets to marry Big Walda in this case and Walder gives him her weight in silver.  It's a rosey future for a bastard like Jon.  I don't think Walder is as bad of a guy as the staunch stark supporters make him out to be. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...