Is Ramsay a good field Commander?

[geogus]

Hi guys

I ve been away for some time.

 

Just a question came to me watching tv series.

Is Ramsay Bolton any good commanding armies?

If i recall correctly, he has zero expirience with battles on the books

[The Hoare]

No experience and very little military education either.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

He fought, and won, one battle. With treachery, surely, but it still counts. Even if I'm not a huge fan of the guy.

[The Knight of Flours]

21 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

No experience and very little military education either.

A bit like Jon Snow then

[Universal Sword Donor]

49 minutes ago, The Knight of Flours said:

A bit like Jon Snow then

Not at all like Jon Snow. He was educated with Robb and Theon by Luwin and trained in the martial arts

Roose himself notes that Ramsay was taught by Reek, who was never trained in arms. Ramsay didn't come to the Dreadfort until just before Roose marched south. He might have learned a few things about command but I'd imagine he learned most of what he knew on the fly fighting against the Hornwood men and Manderly men.

[Lord Wraith]

Roose mentions that all his "training" was by Reek I who was a joke. So no probably no experience. Still his moves at Winterfell were clever.

[Lion of the West]

I think that Ramsay is an mediocre field commander given his, as others have noted above, lack of a formal training but he has a great reserve of cunning and I think that offsets some of his lack of a formal training. And there's the fact that people are always, or almost always, underestimating him. Its seem that Theon underestimated Ramsay, just like Stannis is underestimating him, and I think the two of them will have similar outcomes. In my opinion, training or not, Ramsay is by far to cunning to be underestimated.

[Adam Yozza]

Ramsay isn't a good commander in the slightest. He's had no formal training in either fighting or command and his only experience comes from a few skirmish's against the Manderly's and Hornwood's; which we don't know the outcome of; and the battle's at Winterfell, both of which were won because he had the element of surprise and betrayed people who thought he was their ally.

[cpg2016]

7 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I think that Ramsay is an mediocre field commander given his, as others have noted above, lack of a formal training but he has a great reserve of cunning and I think that offsets some of his lack of a formal training. And there's the fact that people are always, or almost always, underestimating him. Its seem that Theon underestimated Ramsay, just like Stannis is underestimating him, and I think the two of them will have similar outcomes. In my opinion, training or not, Ramsay is by far to cunning to be underestimated.

Theon doesn't know who he is, so he can't underestimate him.

And Stannis isn't underestimating him.  Stannis has done some primitive psychological profiling and is modeling his strategy off that. He may be wrong, but that isn't the same as underestimating.

[Lion of the West]

23 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Theon doesn't know who he is, so he can't underestimate him.

And Stannis isn't underestimating him.  Stannis has done some primitive psychological profiling and is modeling his strategy off that. He may be wrong, but that isn't the same as underestimating.

Theon don't know who Ramsay is, but "Reek" plays Theon like a fiddle and gets pretty much whatever he wants from Theon. When "Reek", this supposed servant of Ramsay, started to show all manner of initiative and make suggestions, Theon should have become more suspecious but Theon never figured that "Reek" could be playing him that well.

And Stannis has essentially concluded that Ramsay and the Frey commander are no threats to him. There's a reason as to why Stannis says that  That's a grave mistake that will put Stannis six feet below the surface.

Time will tell, but my money is that the Bastard of Bolton is not yet done causing grief.

[cpg2016]

4 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Theon don't know who Ramsay is, but "Reek" plays Theon like a fiddle and gets pretty much whatever he wants from Theon. When "Reek", this supposed servant of Ramsay, started to show all manner of initiative and make suggestions, Theon should have become more suspecious but Theon never figured that "Reek" could be playing him that well.

And Stannis has essentially concluded that Ramsay and the Frey commander are no threats to him. There's a reason as to why Stannis says that  That's a grave mistake that will put Stannis six feet below the surface.

Time will tell, but my money is that the Bastard of Bolton is not yet done causing grief.

But Reek/Ramsay being good at manipulating Theon doesn't make him a good field commander.

And Stannis has not concluded that Hosteen Frey and Ramsay are no threat to him.  What he said is that the angrier they get, the more likely they will be to make mistakes.  He's confident, because he's a seasoned battle commander who has chosen his ground.  Which is fine, and maybe is arrogant, but is not the same as underestimating anyone.

I would put serious money (or a more appropriate online bet of your choosing) that Stannis survives and even wins this battle.  I think his narrative arc has one more major point left, and it requires him to be in Winterfell.

[Shi Qiang]

12 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

And Stannis has essentially concluded that Ramsay and the Frey commander are no threats to him. There's a reason as to why Stannis says that  That's a grave mistake that will put Stannis six feet below the surface.

Perhaps so.  The Freys are at a disadvantage because they are not familiar with the terrain but the Boltons do not have that handicap. 

[Lion of the West]

3 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

But Reek/Ramsay being good at manipulating Theon doesn't make him a good field commander.

And Stannis has not concluded that Hosteen Frey and Ramsay are no threat to him.  What he said is that the angrier they get, the more likely they will be to make mistakes.  He's confident, because he's a seasoned battle commander who has chosen his ground.  Which is fine, and maybe is arrogant, but is not the same as underestimating anyone.

I would put serious money (or a more appropriate online bet of your choosing) that Stannis survives and even wins this battle.  I think his narrative arc has one more major point left, and it requires him to be in Winterfell.

Well, the point I wanted to illustrate is that Ramsay is a clever one who can think on his feet. Time and again Ramsays runs into trouble and can come up with a devious solution to it that either gets Ramsay out of trouble or gets him ahead. Thus when Ramsay is in a tight spot he can think fast and find a way out. That's a quality that's worth gold in a commander.

Stannis has angrily retorted to Theon what battles Ramsays has ever won and discards Ser Hosteen as Ser Stupid, which means to me that he really don't take them seriously as a threat. To me that says that Stannis thinks that Ramsays is to green and Hosteen to stupid to get the Lord of Dragonstone with his esteemed list of victories. Now it could be as you suggest that Stannis just isn't afraid of them, but then I don't think that he would be so belittling of Ser Hosteen Frey.

3 hours ago, Allardyce said:

Perhaps so.  The Freys are at a disadvantage because they are not familiar with the terrain but the Boltons do not have that handicap. 

I agree. The same problem that plagues Stannis' Southron men are going to plague the Freys and I kind of expect them to be more or less knocked out from the war during the battle when Stannis pulls his expected stunt on them. But I then expect Ramsay to come up from the rear and smash Lord Stannis, and Lord Manderly, and leave their corpses in the snow.

[snow is the man]

Are you talking about show ramsey or book ramsey. Book ramsey is just a psychopath and we haven't seen him show any skill like in the show.

Now show ramsey is a different matter he knows how to manipulate and control his opponets on the battle field and well. He has patience and is calculating. And he is good with a sword though not as good as jon snow (in the show) but then jon snow in the show is like geralt from the witcher. I think ramsey was well done and the actors and writers did a great job with him. I hate him but he shows the traits of a real pyschopath. He isn't scared like most people even when he is facing death (when the giant is breaking down the door.) he just looks suprised and angry.

So basically ramsey from the show is a good swordsman and a great strategist but in the books he is just a psychopath  who fights like a brawler rather then a trained swordsman and is dumb in alot of ways

[Lion of the West]

EDITED: It was nothing.

[Wm Portnoy]

On 6/28/2017 at 9:17 AM, geogus said:

Hi guys

I ve been away for some time.

 

Just a question came to me watching tv series.

Is Ramsay Bolton any good commanding armies?

If i recall correctly, he has zero expirience with battles on the books

Not enough information in the books to judge him by.  He is on the show. 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Wm Portnoy said:

Not enough information in the books to judge him by.  He is on the show. 

And since this is the book forum, where all and any discussion/mention of the show is strictly forbidden, that is completely irrelevant. 

[Wm Portnoy]

I am predicting that Stannis will lose control of his men.  He grilled the ones who ate the dead but that might not keep the others in line when their bellies start growling.  Roose has the advantage.  At the least he has shelter but he needs to send Manderly out the gates before Lord of the Eels can stab him in the back. 

I wonder if Theon's assessment of the current situation is accurate.  He thinks Stannis is too overconfident but he doesn't really know Stannis. 

[Wm Portnoy]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And since this is the book forum, where all and any discussion/mention of the show is strictly forbidden, that is completely irrelevant. 

Very well.  Fair enough.

[kissdbyfire]

36 minutes ago, Wm Portnoy said:

I am predicting that Stannis will lose control of his men.  He grilled the ones who ate the dead but that might not keep the others in line when their bellies start growling.  Roose has the advantage.  At the least he has shelter but he needs to send Manderly out the gates before Lord of the Eels can stab him in the back. 

I wonder if Theon's assessment of the current situation is accurate.  He thinks Stannis is too overconfident but he doesn't really know Stannis. 

Roose has already sent out the Freys and the Manderlys both, each group out through a different gate. 

And Theon is just too terrified of Ramsay for his assessment of Stannis' "overconfidence" to be reliable.