three queens

[The Bard of Banefort]

11 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Does Littlefinger even know about Aegon? If he wanted her to remain pure for him, why did he betroth her to Harrold Hardyng? Doesn't make sense.

I don't think he plans on actually going through with the wedding. I'm not sure what LF plans on doing with Harry the Heir, but I doubt he would give up his most prized possession for him. Littlefinger already has influence in the Vale through Robert, however tenuous, along with the Riverlands. 

Originally, I had thought Sansa would arrive in King's Landing via Ser Shadrich kidnapping her, and that LF planned on taking the North with the Knights of the Vale. But it seems unlikely that LF wouldn't have his own share of spies, some of whom may even be in the Golden Company. If he caught wind of Aegon invading Westeros, I can't imagine an ambitious man like LF missing out on the opportunity to make Sansa his queen. 

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

I liked idea that LF is talking about Melisandre. Don't forget that he is saying this: What little peace and order the five kings left us.

He thinks that Stannis left and Melisandre is ruling now.  

[Curled Finger]

@Clegane'sPup--give it up, who do you think they are?  

Frickin Little Finger is such a slime ball.   I'm sure he has eyes everywhere and he knows what's going on with Aegon and Myrcella and Arianne by extension.  And I think there is no real contest between Cersei and Marg.   Cersei and Olenna on the other hand--brilliant.   And Sansa is the 3rd queen.    My only hesitation is that he speaks of a war of 3 queens...would he really want Sansa involved in a war?  Cersei, Dorne and The Reach.  

As to Harry the Heir, I'm on board with the ploy that there will be a marriage and it will not be consummated and voila!  Sansa is heir to Winterfell (as far as he knows) and Robert's heir.    This will be her coming out party so I reckon that would be something of a declaration against Cersei.  Could be planning to send troops to meet Aegon/Arianne in Kings Landing to be sure Cersei is taken out.   Sansa does have fans in the Vale.   Sweet Robert  won't be hard to get rid of.  Problem is Little Finger will find out if Aegon marries Arianne.  Then who dies?  

[Lord Wraith]

9 hours ago, Daena the Defiant said:

At the time of the quote - Cersei, Margaery and Daenerys. 

Bingo

[Hodor the Articulate]

I think we are all in agreement that one of the queens is Cersei. Margaery seems very likely also, not because she's going to fuck things up herself, but because her family is going to have a tense relationship with the Faith no matter the outcome of her trial (but especially if they find her guilty).

I really don't know about queen #3. "What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens" suggests the queens he's referring to will be central to conflicts. Wouldn't he want Sansa to be seen as bringing peace and order if she is to be a queen of any sort, not a destroyer of it? I think it's unlikely it's Selyse because she's gone when Stannis goes, and it's probably not Olenna because that's redundant with Marge being a "queen". And I doubt he takes Dany any more seriously as a threat than Mace Tyrell and Randyll Tarly do. There aren't many candidates left after that.

[lady-alayne]

10 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I think 'the three queens' is one of GRRM's chess analogies.  Every chess game starts out with two queens -- one 'black' and one 'white' -- however, it's possible ironically for the game to acquire a third, should a pawn cross the board, when it can be exchanged for another piece, such as a queen!  Sansa is Littlefinger's pawn, whom he intends to 'cross the board' and become queen.  

Uh, I love this theory.

I also support the Cersei/Marge/Sansa triad.

Selyse/Mel seem unlikely in my opinion. LF is smart and aware of pretty much everything that is going on so I do not doubt he knows what's going on in the North, but would that be of immediate concern to him? The Vale is still not part of the war and very secluded, so I doubt LF would see Stannis as a threat, especially as the chances of him winning the Iron Throne are very slim at this point. The only realistic contenders for the Iron Throne right now are Cersei and Marge (Queen 1 and 2). And LF still cares about the throne and what's going on in King's Landing, doesn't he? I think we all agree that his plan is not to scheme Winterfell for Sansa out of charity.

And in addition to that, Sansa almost certainly has to get divorced/widowed for LF's wedding plans to work out, which is another reason why he might have his eyes on KL. It's where the High Sparrow is, and also where Tyrion used to be.

[Pikachu101]

15 hours ago, Daena the Defiant said:

At the time of the quote - Cersei, Margaery and Daenerys. 

This is the general agreement, I know a lot of people mentioned Sansa but it doesn't really seem in Littlefinger's nature. It's a lot more plausible for him to make his move with Sansa after the three queens have destroyed themselves, that way there won't be anyone to stop her from taking back the North. 

That being said, how much does he know about Dany? Would he really put all his hopes on a teenager he barely knows, I doubt even Varys thought she'd last this long. 

[Pikachu101]

13 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don't think he plans on actually going through with the wedding. I'm not sure what LF plans on doing with Harry the Heir, but I doubt he would give up his most prized possession for him. 

He needs Harry to get the Vale's army, but I can see Littlefinger killing him the minute Sansa gives birth to a son

[Angel Eyes]

23 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

He needs Harry to get the Vale's army, but I can see Littlefinger killing him the minute Sansa gives birth to a son

So... if she likes him she prays for a daughter?

Like when a Targaryen is born the Gods flip a coin, it's the same with whether or not a child is male or female.

[Clegane'sPup]

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

@Clegane'sPup--give it up, who do you think they are?  

Frickin Little Finger is such a slime ball.   I'm sure he has eyes everywhere and he knows what's going on with Aegon and Myrcella and Arianne by extension.  And I think there is no real contest between Cersei and Marg.   Cersei and Olenna on the other hand--brilliant.   And Sansa is the 3rd queen.    My only hesitation is that he speaks of a war of 3 queens...would he really want Sansa involved in a war?  Cersei, Dorne and The Reach.  

As to Harry the Heir, I'm on board with the ploy that there will be a marriage and it will not be consummated and voila!  Sansa is heir to Winterfell (as far as he knows) and Robert's heir.    This will be her coming out party so I reckon that would be something of a declaration against Cersei.  Could be planning to send troops to meet Aegon/Arianne in Kings Landing to be sure Cersei is taken out.   Sansa does have fans in the Vale.   Sweet Robert  won't be hard to get rid of.  Problem is Little Finger will find out if Aegon marries Arianne.  Then who dies?  

If you don't mind to much I'm gonna do a general approach here.

I think LF is speaking about Cersei, Margaery and Olenna. --- reasons being mostly speculation.

Back in CoK it was Tyrion’s idea to send someone to treat with the Tyrells. LF offers to go. Tyrion likes it not. LF had a few requirements. LF going to the Tyrell’s is an attempt to secure Highgarden for Lannister in the upcoming battle with Stannis.

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion VIII      "I'll want my commission in writing. A document that will leave Mace Tyrell in no doubt as to my authority, granting me full power to treat with him concerning this match and any other arrangements that might be required, and to make binding pledges in the king's name. It should be signed by Joffrey and every member of this council, and bear all our seals."   Tyrion shifted uncomfortably. "Done.

Before Joffrey married Margaery, Olenna did the questioning with Sansa. Olenna offers to whisk Sansa away to Highgarden. Sansa tells Dontos. Dontos tells LF. LF tells Lannister.

Where am I going with this? Olenna almost blindsided LF. LF had been wheeling & dealing to get Joff & Marg married.

With death of Joffrey, Tyrion’s conviction & Sansa’s escape and the marriage of Tommen & Margaery ---- I can see Cersei wants to keep charge of Tommen. Margaery is trying to influence Tommen. I’m not sure how much power Olenna has but she does seem to be a force to be reckoned with whether she is in KL or Highgarden.

Olenna might be doing some wheeling & dealing behind the scenes ---- Margaery is free now, kinda sorta. Cersei did have to do her walk of shame.

Spitballing & speculation, but that is why I think the three queens LF mentions to Sansa are Cersei, Margaery and Olenna whose nickname is the Queen of Thorns.

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II     "You would not believe half of what is happening in King's Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast. It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos.

LF merely says “What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens, I fear."     If you have ever been around a gaggle of women fighting for what they believe is theirs it is chaos and vicious.

 

[Angel Eyes]

So what's worse, a gaggle of women, or a murder of men?

[Clegane'sPup]

34 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So what's worse, a gaggle of women, or a murder of men?

Har! Geese and ravens. Geese can be quite noisy and viscous.

Edit: just for fun.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/07/130725-geese-guard-police-china/

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

If you don't mind to much I'm gonna do a general approach here.

I think LF is speaking about Cersei, Margaery and Olenna. --- reasons being mostly speculation.

Back in CoK it was Tyrion’s idea to send someone to treat with the Tyrells. LF offers to go. Tyrion likes it not. LF had a few requirements. LF going to the Tyrell’s is an attempt to secure Highgarden for Lannister in the upcoming battle with Stannis.

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion VIII      "I'll want my commission in writing. A document that will leave Mace Tyrell in no doubt as to my authority, granting me full power to treat with him concerning this match and any other arrangements that might be required, and to make binding pledges in the king's name. It should be signed by Joffrey and every member of this council, and bear all our seals."   Tyrion shifted uncomfortably. "Done.

Before Joffrey married Margaery, Olenna did the questioning with Sansa. Olenna offers to whisk Sansa away to Highgarden. Sansa tells Dontos. Dontos tells LF. LF tells Lannister.

 

Where am I going with this? Olenna almost blindsided LF. LF had been wheeling & dealing to get Joff & Marg married.

 

With death of Joffrey, Tyrion’s conviction & Sansa’s escape and the marriage of Tommen & Margaery ---- I can see Cersei wants to keep charge of Tommen. Margaery is trying to influence Tommen. I’m not sure how much power Olenna has but she does seem to be a force to be reckoned with whether she is in KL or Highgarden.

Olenna might be doing some wheeling & dealing behind the scenes ---- Margaery is free now, kinda sorta. Cersei did have to do her walk of shame.

Spitballing & speculation, but that is why I think the three queens LF mentions to Sansa are Cersei, Margaery and Olenna whose nickname is the Queen of Thorns.

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II     "You would not believe half of what is happening in King's Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast. It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos.

LF merely says “What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens, I fear."     If you have ever been around a gaggle of women fighting for what they believe is theirs it is chaos and vicious.

 

 

My thoughts exactly. These are the only three queens who are scheming in and around the Iron Throne at the moment.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

@Clegane'sPup  I agree with your assessment.  LF was always one who acknowledged the power of Highgarden and who is really the brains of that family.  His first criticism of Ned was that he didn't send Loras Tyrell after the Mountain, though it wasn't for Sansa's reasoning.  If you are going to go against the Lannisters, you need the Tyrells on your side.  Tyrells understand good PR stunts.  Loras Tyrell seen running around the countryside hunting down the Lannister's own man like a gallant knight is great pro-Tyrell and anti-Lannister PR move.  The Tyrells were the ones that withheld food from King's Landing and that caused the bread riots.  The Lannister's get blamed for the starvation and the smallfolk cheer when Margaery shows up handing out food.  The current struggle around the IT is Lannisters vs Tyrells.  Anyone else is still a very long way off and a lot could happen in between now and then.  LF doesn't plan things into eleventh dimensional chess moves.  He plans one or two moves ahead and mostly adapts to whatever happens like he did when he found out what Olenna was planning.    

I sincerely doubt LF has any intentions of putting Sansa on the IT.  Everything he has done to fuck over the Starks and Tullys has been born out of a deep well of personal grievances and the means he uses reflects that:  use Lysa to murder Jon Arryn, lie to Catelyn, start a conflict between Starks and Lannisters, manipulate Ned, get him arrested and killed, ruin Catelyn's life, take their daughter for his own, and sexually abuse their daughter.  It makes sense his end goal for Sansa is something personally meaningful to him.  Something that says he has utterly defeated and humiliated the two families that defeated and humiliated him.  The IT is just power without any emotional significance.  Winterfell has emotional significance and is a very personal fuck you from LF to the Starks and Tullys.  He may honestly mean to marry Sansa to Harry for whatever he can use that for, but he clearly expects a sexual relationship when her virginity is no longer necessary.       

[Curled Finger]

8 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

If you don't mind to much I'm gonna do a general approach here.

I think LF is speaking about Cersei, Margaery and Olenna. --- reasons being mostly speculation.

Back in CoK it was Tyrion’s idea to send someone to treat with the Tyrells. LF offers to go. Tyrion likes it not. LF had a few requirements. LF going to the Tyrell’s is an attempt to secure Highgarden for Lannister in the upcoming battle with Stannis.

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion VIII      "I'll want my commission in writing. A document that will leave Mace Tyrell in no doubt as to my authority, granting me full power to treat with him concerning this match and any other arrangements that might be required, and to make binding pledges in the king's name. It should be signed by Joffrey and every member of this council, and bear all our seals."   Tyrion shifted uncomfortably. "Done.

Before Joffrey married Margaery, Olenna did the questioning with Sansa. Olenna offers to whisk Sansa away to Highgarden. Sansa tells Dontos. Dontos tells LF. LF tells Lannister.

 

Where am I going with this? Olenna almost blindsided LF. LF had been wheeling & dealing to get Joff & Marg married.

 

With death of Joffrey, Tyrion’s conviction & Sansa’s escape and the marriage of Tommen & Margaery ---- I can see Cersei wants to keep charge of Tommen. Margaery is trying to influence Tommen. I’m not sure how much power Olenna has but she does seem to be a force to be reckoned with whether she is in KL or Highgarden.

Olenna might be doing some wheeling & dealing behind the scenes ---- Margaery is free now, kinda sorta. Cersei did have to do her walk of shame.

Spitballing & speculation, but that is why I think the three queens LF mentions to Sansa are Cersei, Margaery and Olenna whose nickname is the Queen of Thorns.

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II     "You would not believe half of what is happening in King's Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast. It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos.

LF merely says “What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens, I fear."     If you have ever been around a gaggle of women fighting for what they believe is theirs it is chaos and vicious.

 

 

Would that all pups were so articulate.   Well said. 

I wonder if this war is a direct result of Little Finger's maneuvering?   Sometimes I think we give him far too much credit.   Then I remember who we are discussing. 

[Springwatch]

It depends what intelligence reports LF is getting from Essos and Dorne. He must know by now that Dany has made herself a city ruler - and is struggling to hold that city. So, maybe she's waiting for the dragons to grow, or maybe she'll leave Westeros to her children. Something is holding her back.

On the other hand, maybe rumours of Arianne's queenmaker plot have got out. The plot might even have been predictable to a devious thinker like LF.

It depends on the timing, but I think I'll go for Myrcella for the 3rd queen.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

 So, maybe she's waiting for the dragons to grow, or maybe she'll leave Westeros to her children. Something is holding her back.

If Daenerys ever has children.

[BalerionTheCat]

Cersei and Maergery for sure. Daenerys could be the 3rd. But she is far and her coming is uncertain. Selyse is one possibility. LF was planning something for Sansa. But I'm not sure he wanted to expose her now. Or is Asha. After Balon death, she would have been queen without Euron. Or Myrcella according to Arianne's plan.

[Wm Portnoy]

On 6/29/2017 at 3:06 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

I think we are all in agreement that one of the queens is Cersei. Margaery seems very likely also, not because she's going to fuck things up herself, but because her family is going to have a tense relationship with the Faith no matter the outcome of her trial (but especially if they find her guilty).

I really don't know about queen #3. "What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens" suggests the queens he's referring to will be central to conflicts. Wouldn't he want Sansa to be seen as bringing peace and order if she is to be a queen of any sort, not a destroyer of it? I think it's unlikely it's Selyse because she's gone when Stannis goes, and it's probably not Olenna because that's redundant with Marge being a "queen". And I doubt he takes Dany any more seriously as a threat than Mace Tyrell and Randyll Tarly do. There aren't many candidates left after that.

We have to look at the wars that LF set in motion.  The North (Selyse or Melissandre), Lannisters vs the Faith (Cersei), and Tyrells vs the Lannisters (Margaerys or the Queen of Thorns).  

I suppose you could argue that Varys is one of the queens. 

[Clegane'sPup]

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

It depends what intelligence reports LF is getting from Essos and Dorne.

How do LF & Varys get their intel from faraway places?  I mean they can’t be using ravens in KL.  Pycelle tends the ravens and reads the mail. Do LF & Varys have secret rookeries hidden somewhere?

Olenna said:    A Storm of Swords - Sansa I      The wrinkled old lady smiled. "At Highgarden we have many spiders amongst the flowers. So long as they keep to themselves we let them spin their little webs, but if they get underfoot we step on them."

Quentyn remembers Doran :      A Dance with Dragons - The Merchant's Man    The Spider had informers everywhere, even in the halls of Sunspear. "Dorne will bleed if your purpose is discovered," his father had warned him, as they watched the children frolic in the pools and fountains of the Water Gardens. "What we do is treason, make no mistake.

Tyrion thinks Varys has little birds [informants] at the Citadel:   A Storm of Swords - Tyrion II      the Conclave was on the verge of sending us Maester Gormon, a Tyrell of Highgarden. When I told your lord father, he acted at once."    The Conclave met in Oldtown behind closed doors, Tyrion knew; its deliberations were supposedly a secret. So Varys has little birds in the Citadel too. "

I am told that while people are traveling from place to place they need to get word by courier. As in Stannis can send raven messages from his crofter’s village but can’t receive raven message.

It would be a long stretch for a raven to travel across the sea. News would need to travel by courier or a seafarer aboard a ship like the Cinnamon Wind who frequents ports of call on a regular basis.