Sansa and the Savage Giant

[Ygrain]

Speaking of sex crimes, it needn't be against Sansa herself; it would be enough if Sansa heard a word from Jeyne Poole. Because what had been done to her, and here I don't mean just Ramsay but at LF's brothel, as well, is well worth punishment.

 

ETA: Oh, and it would be a nice parallel to Arya bringing vengeance on Chiswyck for the rape of the innkeeper's daughter. 

It is not only the main characters that deserve justice, the minor ones, as well.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Speaking of sex crimes, it needn't be against Sansa herself; it would be enough if Sansa heard a word from Jeyne Poole. Because what had been done to her, and here I don't mean just Ramsay but at LF's brothel, as well, is well worth punishment.

 

ETA: Oh, and it would be a nice parallel to Arya bringing vengeance on Chiswyck for the rape of the innkeeper's daughter. 

It is not only the main characters that deserve justice, the minor ones, as well.

This is indeed my preferred scenario, Jeyne is on her way to the wall now, and there I think she will be so relieved to see Jon, that she will break down and tell him everything which was done to her and which she may know about LF's involvement in House Starks demise. If we assume LF conducts business in his brothels she may have overheard either his meetings or talk amongst the girls? 

Once LF moves north with Sansa; at a guess after the Bolton's are defeated Stannis dies from wounds sustained in battle and leaves a power vacuum in the North which LF finds just too tempting not to try and fill. I think Jon upon hearing that his sister has taken WF with the help of the Knights of the Vale would ride out to meet her, to plead the NW's need for knights, and supplies. Both of which she will have in abundance. Once he arrives to find LF sitting at his sister's right hand I think he speaks with her and relays Jeyne's story at which point Sansa has him arrested. Because once in WF she holds ALL the power.  The Northern Lords loyal to House Stark and the Vale Lords itching to be rid of Baelish, her cousin Sweet Robin wrapped around her finger. Whose going to stop her? 

But I do admit there is evidence implying he assaults her directly. I just don't like it. 

[ravenous reader]

3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

This is indeed my preferred scenario, Jeyne is on her way to the wall now, and there I think she will be so relieved to see Jon, that she will break down and tell him everything which was done to her and which she may know about LF's involvement in House Starks demise. If we assume LF conducts business in his brothels she may have overheard either his meetings or talk amongst the girls? 

Once LF moves north with Sansa; at a guess after the Bolton's are defeated Stannis dies from wounds sustained in battle and leaves a power vacuum in the North which LF finds just too tempting not to try and fill. I think Jon upon hearing that his sister has taken WF with the help of the Knights of the Vale would ride out to meet her, to plead the NW's need for knights, and supplies. Both of which she will have in abundance. Once he arrives to find LF sitting at his sister's right hand I think he speaks with her and relays Jeyne's story at which point Sansa has him arrested. Because once in WF she holds ALL the power.  The Northern Lords loyal to House Stark and the Vale Lords itching to be rid of Baelish, her cousin Sweet Robin wrapped around her finger. Whose going to stop her? 

But I do admit there is evidence implying he assaults her directly. I just don't like it. 

@Ygrain came up with a very intriguing, though definitely disturbing, scenario that this sex crime may have already occurred on the night of the Blackwater, as an alternative, not completely implausible, explanation for why Sansa may be 'misremembering' the so-called 'unkiss', and have repressed the traumatic memory of the murky events of that night in general.  

Taken together with the pervasive pattern with which GRRM is playing of all the other cases of mistaken identity, specifically the sordid case in which people are tricked into having sex without realizing either that they have been violated and/or by whom, it's certainly something to consider -- e.g. Lann infiltrating and then having his way unbeknownst to them with the ladies in Casterly Rock; Lann's ancestor, Tyrion's cryptic comment on his wedding night to Sansa that 'in the dark he could be the Knight of Flowers'; inebriated Petyr supposedly mistaking Lysa 'deflowering' him in his bed for Cat; and then some of the more disturbing 'skinchanging rapes' as perpetrated by Varamyr and Euron, where it appears they had sex with someone while inhabiting the body of someone else, including both animals and humans. 'Abomination!'  

There's even a suggestion of this possibility, though innocently dropped by GRRM, in Bran's chapter where in his desire to hold and comfort Meera, for whom it's clear he's developed a bit of a childhood romantic crush, he imagines 'reaching' for her by using Hodor's body, whereupon having somehow gotten wind of Bran's intrusive desire she ends up 'bolting from the fire' as if she's afraid of something pursuing her.  I am not trying to upset anyone here -- and unlike many others on the forum I don't think Bran will 'go bad' irrevocably (I will be disappointed if that's the case), let alone rape anyone per se -- but we have to be courageous enough to explore the signs as given in the text, wherever they may lead.  From a certain perspective, Bran in skinchanging Hodor has already 'mind-raped' him, and what else is 'bodysnatching' but a form of rape --although he had not been intending to do harm.  

Sorry to break it to any of you who may feel personally offended by these ideas, but GRRM has a taste for the perverse, so that's what there is, and I find Ygrain's idea is thematically compelling and not at all out of the question.  Besides the obvious inverse parallel which Ygrain has pointed out with the confusing situation surrounding the loss of Littlefinger's own virginity, there would also be a certain symmetry between Littlefinger suggesting Garlan wear Renly's armor and Littlefinger 'posing' as Sandor, as it were; as there would a certain symmetry between 'lubed-up' Lann's shenanigans infiltrating the Rock and slimy Littlefinger infiltrating the Red Keep via a secret passage .  Should fragmented memories of what actually occurred on that night arise in future, and were it to ever come to a trial as a result, in line with the trial in the novel 'A Passage to India' in which an innocent man is accused of rape, which I've suggested in my post as possible plot inspiration on the same thread; then Littlefinger egging on Sansa might very well scapegoat Sandor, analogously to how he scapegoated Marillion with Sansa's only half-unwitting complicity for Lysa's murder.

Quote

I don't think Sandor lies, either, but I do agree that the imagery of the scene is pretty much that of rape. Might it be possible that someone else took advantage of her, and the brutal Unkiss that she remembers is actually the only echo of that other whom she does not remember and whose image is overlaid by that of Sandor? However, who? We are presented with three men lusting Sansa - Sandor, Joffrey and LF. Sandor, by his own admission, didn't do it. Joffrey wouldn't have shut up about it. LF was not there - or was he? We know that he reached KL with Tyrells and Tywin's forces and was with them before the battle began, because he was the one suggesting that Garlan should put on Renly's armour. But after that? Would it be too much for a stretch to assume that the man who can snuck out of the Red Keep, might want to snuck in to check on "young Cat"? After Sandor leaves, Sansa lies on the floor under his cloak, shivering, and she loses track of time until she hears a bell tolling. If LF found her like that, perhaps asleep or passed out from emotional exhaustion, what would he do?

Just recently, I read again GRRM saying that the Unkiss is going to lead to some plot point concerning Sansa's unreliable memory, and I can't think of a way the Unkiss would be really significant. But, say, if Sansa was found not a virgin on her wedding night with Harry? And/Or actually remembered her "daddy" LF being the one kissing her,or worse, back then?

Even the repression would work here, IMHO, substituting the kiss from the man who raped her, by the kiss from the man who did not, and it would be sort of a parallel/opposite to LF losing his virginity while mistaking Lysa for Cat

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

@Ygrain came up with a very intriguing, though definitely disturbing, scenario that this sex crime may have already occurred on the night of the Blackwater, as an alternative, not completely implausible, explanation for why Sansa may be 'misremembering' the so-called 'unkiss', and have repressed the traumatic memory of the murky events of that night in general.  

Taken together with the pervasive pattern with which GRRM is playing of all the other cases of mistaken identity, specifically the sordid case in which people are tricked into having sex without realizing either that they have been violated and/or by whom, it's certainly something to consider -- e.g. Lann infiltrating and then having his way unbeknownst to them with the ladies in Casterly Rock; Lann's ancestor, Tyrion's cryptic comment on his wedding night to Sansa that 'in the dark he could be the Knight of Flowers'; inebriated Petyr supposedly mistaking Lysa 'deflowering' him in his bed for Cat; and then some of the more disturbing 'skinchanging rapes' as perpetrated by Varamyr and Euron, where it appears they had sex with someone while inhabiting the body of someone else, including both animals and humans. 'Abomination!'  

There's even a suggestion of this possibility, though innocently dropped by GRRM, in Bran's chapter where in his desire to hold and comfort Meera, for whom it's clear he's developed a bit of a childhood romantic crush, he imagines 'reaching' for her by using Hodor's body, whereupon having somehow gotten wind of Bran's intrusive desire she ends up 'bolting from the fire' as if she's afraid of something pursuing her.  I am not trying to upset anyone here -- and unlike many others on the forum I don't think Bran will 'go bad' irrevocably (I will be disappointed if that's the case), let alone rape anyone per se -- but we have to be courageous enough to explore the signs as given in the text, wherever they may lead.  From a certain perspective, Bran in skinchanging Hodor has already 'mind-raped' him, and what else is 'bodysnatching' but a form of rape --although he had not been intending to do harm.  

Sorry to break it to any of you who may feel personally offended by these ideas, but GRRM has a taste for the perverse, so that's what there is, and I find Ygrain's idea is thematically compelling and not at all out of the question.  Besides the obvious inverse parallel which Ygrain has pointed out with the confusing situation surrounding the loss of Littlefinger's own virginity, there would also be a certain symmetry between Littlefinger suggesting Garlan wear Renly's armor and Littlefinger 'posing' as Sandor, as it were; as there would a certain symmetry between 'lubed-up' Lann's shenanigans infiltrating the Rock and slimy Littlefinger infiltrating the Red Keep via a secret passage .  Should fragmented memories of what actually occurred on that night arise in future, and were it to ever come to a trial as a result, in line with the trial in the novel 'A Passage to India' in which an innocent man is accused of rape, which I've suggested in my post as possible plot inspiration on the same thread; then Littlefinger egging on Sansa might very well scapegoat Sandor, analogously to how he scapegoated Marillion with Sansa's only half-unwitting complicity for Lysa's murder.

 

Well, I'm glad that this theory at the very least doesn't presume Sandor is the rapist, because I think we can safely say that that's been disproven at this point. I do think LF is going to overstep himself eventually, but I don't think that's what the Unkiss indicates. I'm in the camp that thinks the Unkiss is paranormal in one way or another -- either a premonition of a kiss to come, or a telepathic connection between her and Sandor. Sansa's memories of the Unkiss are also becoming more sensual and pleasant, and less frightening for her; in AFFC, she actually seems angry with him for taking off after supposedly kissing her ("he took a song and a kiss and left me with nothing but a bloody cloak"). If she had mistaken this for rape, then her emotions would be more frightened and uncomfortable, not frustrated with him for leaving her behind. Some readers view the bloody cloak as a sign of foul play, but I think the blood is symbolic of a more visceral connection between the two of them. 

One way I could see LF's increasing, ah, physical interest in Sansa playing out is that someone could unknowingly see him kissing her, the way Lysa had, and then run off to tell someone else what they saw. The word spreads and before you know it, the rumor is that LF is bedding his bastard daughter  I'm not sure how even Littlefinger would get himself out of that one. 

 

[Ygrain]

Gosh, I never thought that the idea might take hold  I'm not even sure I believe it myself, it was merely an intellectual play. But, since I enjoy such things from time to time... what would have happened if Petyr did snuck in, started to kiss Sansa passionately, and she whispered 'Sandor'?

 

16 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

But I do admit there is evidence implying he assaults her directly. I just don't like it. 

From a narrative point of view: I don't think Jeyne's word would be enough for Sansa to behead her "benefactor". She would need a proof, or personal experience. So your interpretation of the textual hints might indeed be correct.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

That's an interesting idea, and I appreciate the exploration of the text, we learn so much by testing it in that manner, stretching things to see what may be revealed. But in this case. I have to admit I don't think there is any chance Peytr Baelish did anything to Sansa the night of the Black Water. 

I am well and truly on the SanSan train (choo choo

To me, the Unkiss scene is far too important to their own love story to have anything other than what is developing between them in it. the scene is dripping in gothic romance and marriage symbolism. The Bloody cloak represents both the westerosi marriage ceremony, in which a man offers his bride his cloak of protection, and she has to symbolically accept it. And the real world old tradition of hanging out the bridal sheet the morning after a wedding in which the blood-stained sheet is displayed to prove the bride's virginity. Then there are the bells pealing out in the morning which evoke the post wedding ringing of bells in our own world and the cedar chest in which Sansa hides the cloak is evocative of the American tradition of a Hope Chest in which young women store items for their wedding day and married life.  I do think the Unkiss will prove significant in Sansa's recollection of the incident because she herself fully believes in and is romanticising the kiss. In fact, she is centering it in relation to her own sexuality. Yet he doesn't even know she thinks he kissed her, and I think it will be this which ends up having significance when the two of them meet back up. 

I don't know about Jeyne's word not being enough. I thought that 

Spoiler

the memory of Sansa has of herself Jeyne & Arya racing through the courtyard in WF shoes us that her love for her friend is still very much important to her. 

 

And that the testimony of Jeyne via Jon would definitely be enough to turn her on LF. If especially Jeyne's account of her time under LF's bondage includes overheard a conversation regarding his whispering in Joffrey's ear to execute Ned Stark.  but above all, I see Sansa as a girl who invests quite heavily in her female companionship. It has been a strong theme in her arc with Jeyne, Margaery and Myranda all playing the role she desires of a trusted, loved ally;  I don't think we ought to underestimate the love between two childhood friends. 

[Ygrain]

10 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

above all, I see Sansa as a girl who invests quite heavily in her female companionship. It has been a strong theme in her arc with Jeyne, Margaery and Myranda all playing the role she desires of a trusted, loved ally;  I don't think we ought to underestimate the love between two childhood friends. 

That's definitely a correct assessment; it's just, I don't know - if you want to behead a Lord, I guess you would need to base it on something that would be convincing for other Lords, as well. Jeyne's word should be enough to convince Sansa, but would it be enough for anyone else? - In that case, if Sansa was unable to find any further proof, the Chekhov hairnet might come back into play for a sort of more private justice. But I would definitely prefer LF getting the sword from Sansa's own hand!

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

@Ygrain, I absolutely think it will be a public beheading. Everything points towards beheading for Peytr Baelish. 

The thing is, in WF Sansa is Lady Stark. She's got all the power. The Lords Declarant if they travel with LF & Sansa north hold no love for the man. In most of their eyes the ideal situation would be for LF's influence over the vale to be gone.  And their best way to enable that is for LF to be removed either through his death or his utter political destruction.  Currently, he is Cersei's man publicly and whilst the Vale are nominally loyal to the IT we all know their true loyalty does not lie with house "Baratheon"-Lannister. So should a power block be restored in the North via the reinstatement of a stark in WF, whom their own Lord is not only the cousin of but dotes upon. It would be quite easy to see them going against the IT and not objecting to Lady Stark's justice. Especially if we add in the fact that the south is likely at this point to be in the grips of another civil war between Houses Lannister,Tyrell, Targaryen (via fAegon), and Martell.   

 

Now let's look at the powerful Lords of the North.  Who could object to Lady Stark's justice? Manderly? Do you see him objecting? He himself heard with his own ears the appalling and degrading treatment of Jeyne Poole at Ramsey Bolton's hands. Would he cast doubt upon her sworn testimony to Lord Commander Snow that Peytr Baelish held her against her will for over a year, prostituted her, had her beaten and trained to do the most base of acts for his own financial gain? Given that he and several other Lords of the North witnessed her arrive at WF posing as Arya Stark ( they all pretty much know it isn't Arya imo.Certainly Manderly has met the real Arya previously as she recalls going to White Harbour) And should she also have sworn to Lord Commander Snow that she did overhear Lord Baelish conspire with the Bastard product of Incest Joffrey Baratheon-Lannister to deny Lord Stark his right to join the Nights Watch and have him executed. Would he not believe her word on that matter? Knowing his feelings about the Lannisters? What other powerful northern Lords might be at WF who may object? Personally, I don't see any of them shouting Halt! Lady Stark, you must not execute this man for he is a noble lord we must consult Kings Landing upon this matter. 

[Ygrain]

Alright, seems I haven't thought this far enough :-) Go Sansa!

[blacken]

Though the symbolism isn't direct I agree that the stone giant Sansa will slay is LF, it's just so thematically on point.

I am interested in what the spark for this will be, but I doubt it'll be Jeyne spilling her guts to Jon cus he'll be dead about the time she gets to the wall and even if he comes back immediately I don't know if I believe that he'll remember Jeyne or be concerned with the affairs of the North, remember that Beric forgot much of his former life after resurrection  (although it's uncertain how long this took).

I also tend to think that poison will be the weapon, as I think Sansa will learn her lessons well and give Petyr a taste of his own medicine, a death behind closed doors. Arrest and a trial and public execution give many opportunities for things to go wrong.

[Ygrain]

Beric wasn't a skinchanger, so his consciousness had nowhere to hid in between the resurrections - and besides, the main characters don't get the same treatment as the minor ones

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Also having done the maths, Jeyne will be arriving at the wall, well after Jon's body will have been resurrected. But that said I've never been fully convinced he's dead and will need a resurrection. But that is a different topic. In addition to this, you have to look at the resurrection of Beric Dondarion to understand how he became so disconnected from his mortal life and self. He was resurrected SIX  times in order to get to the point where he had lost himself. Jon if at all only requires one resurrection. the change in him will not be anywhere near as profound as that which we see in Beric. Uncat has only come back once, and frankly, she is not as screwed in the head as many readers presume. She is intent upon vengeance against the Frey's which is totally logical, she is trying to find Arya, she contemplates Robb's crown, and she is intolerant of Brienne's perceived disloyalty and is ruthless in her tactics to get her to concede to bringing Jaime Lannister to her. But let's face is Cat was always pretty ruthless and shrewd.  So she isn't wildly changed. Mellisandre seems to be a Fire Wight also, and she's far from an unthinking soulless being. Nor is Moqorro who by all rights has to be one. 

 

Just as a bonus thought, If Mellisandre is a firewight and she attempts the Fire kiss on Jon, would she inadvertently pass her own life sustaining fire to him, as Beric did to Cat, thus extinguishing her own flame? Would she be doing this in full knowledge of the effect it will have upon her immortality? Would she do it because her flames have told her Jon is AAR?  Might she sacrifice herself willingly? 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Alright, seems I haven't thought this far enough :-) Go Sansa!

[Springwatch]

3 hours ago, blacken said:

Though the symbolism isn't direct I agree that the stone giant Sansa will slay is LF, it's just so thematically on point.

I am interested in what the spark for this will be, but I doubt it'll be Jeyne spilling her guts to Jon cus he'll be dead about the time she gets to the wall and even if he comes back immediately I don't know if I believe that he'll remember Jeyne or be concerned with the affairs of the North, remember that Beric forgot much of his former life after resurrection  (although it's uncertain how long this took).

I also tend to think that poison will be the weapon, as I think Sansa will learn her lessons well and give Petyr a taste of his own medicine, a death behind closed doors. Arrest and a trial and public execution give many opportunities for things to go wrong.

So many decapitations in Sansa's story so far - it would almost be strange if LF's head didn't end up on a spike.  I only hope she doesn't end up on a spike herself.

I agree it won't be for Jeyne, officially. Sex crimes don't seem to rate the death penalty - rapists get sent to the Wall. Poor Jeyne was legally subject to collective punishment of the Starks by the Crown - or it might seem that way to Sansa's lords.

[Springwatch]

On 03/07/2017 at 7:31 AM, Ygrain said:

<snip>

The black blood inside can have multiple meanings, especially if the giant is symbolic of LF's influence. LF is basically dead on the inside - he doesn't care for anyone and anything, kills without remorse and has no qualms about the death and suffering that his scheming bring to others. Even his affection for Sansa is a twisted, unhealthy thing. I don't see a single redeeming quality in the man, so the imagery of rotten black blood inside works just fine for me.

ETA: Oh, and one more thing why it should be LF: it is weird that the vision should place such an emphasis on a character that is relatively unimportant for most of the Starks involved, and not hint in any way at the one who is behind everything.

I've a little bet on with myself that all the black-blooded end up dead, or sort of dead (including the entire Nightwatch - a Wall manned by ghosts etc). Might not happen, but I like it.

Littlefinger is rotten, without a doubt. He's also clever, cynical, brave (reckless?) and witty - none of which are redeeming qualities, but make him good company for the reader.

I do think he's the Mr Hyde half of a Jekyll and Hyde persona. Occasionally the Petyr dominates the Littlefinger (eg, naming Sansa after his mother, making 'Alayne' his daughter). I'm expecting a crisis between the two (like Smeagol/Gollum in Lord of the Rings).  I'm also expecting him to end up with his head on a spike.

[Ygrain]

In other words: LF is definitely a goner. Let's call this a poll and send the result to GRRM, so that he can write it!

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

So many decapitations in Sansa's story so far - it would almost be strange if LF's head didn't end up on a spike.  I only hope she doesn't end up on a spike herself.

I think Sansa is GRRM's version of Queen Elizabeth I, the famous red-haired 'Virgin Queen', and that he therefore has no intention of eliminating her.  On the contrary, I believe Sansa like her historical inspiration is the unlikely future ruler of Westeros, emerging from her traumatic early life following the beheading of one parent and the death of the other, leaving her to frequently suffer the indignity of being at the mercy of others at court, to become one of the greatest players of the game!  Fittingly, Queen Elizabeth I was also fond of beheading her rivals, including her cousin Mary...watch out Jon and Sweetrobin!  Talking of 'Sweetrobin,' I've recently discovered that there was also a 'Sweet Robin' in Queen Elizabeth I's life -- clinching GRRM's parallel for me.  Instead of the 'Sweet Robin' in question being a child, however, he was a grown, married man very close to Elizabeth and rumored to be her lover.  And his wife also died in suspicious circumstances (like Lysa) in which it wasn't clear if she had committed suicide or been murdered, perhaps even on account of his unorthodox relationship with Elizabeth (the suspicion being that she may have been pushed down a flight of stairs, analogous to being pushed through the Moon Door).  So GRRM is probably conflating QEI's 'Sweet Robin' with 'Sweet Petyr' in his story.

Spoiler

Robert Dudley: Queen Elizabeth I's great love

The ‘Virgin Queen’ never married, but one suitor came closer to her than any other. Tracy Borman explores the complex and sometimes scandalous relationship between Elizabeth I and Robert Dudley.

 

This article first appeared in BBC History Magazine's 'Royal Dynasties' bookazine

 

Elizabeth I is remembered in history as the Virgin Queen. She was the daughter of Henry VIII by his second wife Anne Boleyn and in stark contrast to her much-married father, she famously declared: “I will have but one mistress here, and no master.” During the course of her long reign, she was besieged by many suitors but gave each one nothing more than “fair words but no promises”. Yet it is generally accepted that there was one man who, more than any other, tempted Elizabeth to relinquish her single state. 

 

Robert Dudley (1532/33–88), was the fifth son of John Dudley, 1st Duke of Northumberland. The duke had wrested power during the minority of Edward VI (who became king aged nine on Henry VIII’s death), but was executed for putting his daughter-in-law, Lady Jane Grey, on the throne after the young king’s death in 1553. His son Robert led troops in support of the coup, but was swiftly defeated by Queen Mary I and was thrown into the Tower of London.

 

Robert Dudley’s sojourn in the Tower coincided with that of the new queen’s half-sister, Elizabeth (who Mary suspected of plotting against her). They had been friends since childhood, Dudley having been among her brother Edward’s companions. Close in age, Elizabeth and Dudley had shared the same tutor, Roger Ascham, who had been greatly impressed by his precocious young pupils. 

 

It was in Dudley that the eight-year-old Elizabeth had confided upon the execution of her third stepmother, Catherine Howard, in 1541, vowing: “I will never marry.” He would always remember the conversation, and it may have been the reason he decided to marry Amy Robsart nine years later. During the years that followed, Robert kept his wife away from court – mindful, perhaps, that it might damage his relationship with Elizabeth.

 

The years of uncertainty during Mary Tudor’s reign (1553–58), when Elizabeth lived in constant fear for her life, brought her ever closer to Dudley. He remained loyal to her throughout, even when it risked his own safety. They spent many hours together and had a great deal in common, sharing a love of hunting, dancing and lively conversation. This sparked endless gossip among the princess’s household, particularly given that Dudley was a married man.

 

His loyalty was rewarded when Elizabeth became queen in 1558, at the age of 25. She immediately appointed Dudley to be her Master of Horse, a prestigious position that involved regular attendance upon his royal mistress. But it was no longer easy for the couple to meet in private. As queen, Elizabeth’s every move was scrutinised not just by her people, but by the whole of Europe. “A thousand eyes see all I do,” she once complained.

 

Nevertheless, Elizabeth made it clear that she had no intention of giving up her favourite. If anything, she found ways to spend even more time with him. A year after her accession, she had Dudley’s bedchamber moved next to her private rooms in order to facilitate their clandestine meetings. Before long, their relationship was causing a scandal not just in England, but in courts across Europe. 

 

The obvious intimacy between them provoked endless speculation about just how close their relationship was. Elizabeth’s chief rival, Mary, Queen of Scots, was in no doubt that Elizabeth and Dudley were lovers, and later told the noblewoman Bess of Hardwick that he had visited the queen’s bed numerous times. It is unlikely that Elizabeth, who had seen so many powerful examples of the perils of sex and childbirth, would have risked the throne she had fought so hard for by sleeping with her favourite. But their friendship probably charted a careful course between platonic and sexual.

 

The rumours flared up again in 1587, when a young man going by the name of Arthur Dudley arrived at Philip II’s court in Madrid, Spain, claiming to be the illegitimate child of the English queen and her favourite, Robert Dudley. His age placed his conception at 1561, which coincided with Elizabeth being bedridden with a mysterious illness that caused her body to swell. The account therefore had an air of credibility, made more so by the fact that Arthur was able to name a servant who had allegedly spirited him away from the royal palace of Hampton Court (near London) as soon as he was born and raised him as his own, only confessing the truth on his deathbed in 1583. There is no firm evidence to corroborate the story, but it suited King Philip’s interests to discredit the English queen.

 

Ironically, the death of Dudley’s wife in 1560, at her residence Cumnor Place, removed any hope that Elizabeth may have privately cherished of one day marrying him. The circumstances were suspicious. Amy insisted that all her servants attend a local fair. When they returned, they found her at the bottom of a short flight of stairs, her neck broken. Whether it was an accident, suicide or murder has never been resolved beyond doubt. 

 

The finger of suspicion pointed at Dudley, whom his enemies claimed would not have flinched from having his own wife put to death so that he could realise his ambitions of marrying the queen. Mary, Queen of Scots  quipped that the queen of England was about to marry her “horsekeeper” who had killed his wife in order to make way for her. Elizabeth was also in the frame: many believed that her passion for Dudley had driven her to have his wife murdered so that she could have him at last.

 

Yet it is extremely unlikely that Dudley or Elizabeth had any hand in Amy’s death. They would hardly have taken such a risk, especially as they would have known that it would prove counterproductive to any plans they may have had to marry. The scandal reverberated not just around the kingdom but across the courts of Europe, so that Elizabeth was obliged to distance herself from Dudley in order to avoid being implicated any further.

 

The death of Amy Robsart in 1560. Dudley came under suspicion when his wife was found dead at the bottom of their stairs. In the ensuing scandal, the queen had to distance herself from him, in public at least. 

 

But in private, the queen refused to give up her favourite. Now that the scrutiny of the court was even more intense, she was obliged to go to even greater lengths to conceal their meetings. In November 1561, for example, she disguised herself as the maid of Katherine Howard (later Countess of Nottingham) in order to enjoy the secret pleasure of watching Dudley shoot near Windsor Castle. Another attempt at discretion was less successful. When her close friend and attendant Lady Fiennes de Clinton helped Elizabeth escape court in disguise to meet Dudley at his house for dinner, Philip II of Spain’s envoy heard of it and immediately reported it to his master. 

 

In the letters that Queen Elizabeth and Dudley exchanged, they used the symbol ‘ôô’ as code for the nickname of ‘Eyes’ that she had given him. Elizabeth kept her favourite’s letters, along with his portrait, in a locked desk next to her bed. On a visit to court in 1564, the Scottish ambassador Sir James Melville spied the portrait as Elizabeth was searching for one of his own royal mistress. When he asked if he could borrow it to show the Scottish queen, Elizabeth immediately refused, “alleging that she had but that one picture of his”. Spying Robert Dudley in a corner of the bedchamber, Melville slyly observed that she should not cling so to the portrait, since “she had the original.”

 

As her reign progressed and the pressure to marry grew ever more intense, Elizabeth pretended to consider numerous potential suitors. But she would never commit to any of them. The Venetian ambassador shrewdly observed: “She has many suitors for her hand, and by protracting any decision keeps them all in hope.”

 

Meanwhile, now that the scandal of his wife’s death had faded, Robert Dudley stepped up his campaign to make Queen Elizabeth his wife. He besieged her with protestations of his undying affection, all of which his royal mistress received with obvious pleasure but with no firm promises. 

 

By 1575, Dudley was growing desperate and decided to make one last, spectacular attempt to persuade Elizabeth to marry him. Pulling out all the stops, he invited her to his Warwickshire estate, Kenilworth Castle, and staged several days of extraordinarily lavish entertainments at a huge cost. The queen loved every minute of her visit there, but would not be dazzled into acquiescence. Genuine though her affection for Robert was, she knew that marrying him would court disaster in her kingdom, sparking such intense opposition from Dudley’s rivals that it might even spill out into civil war.

 

For all his desperation to marry the queen, Dudley had been secretly courting one of her ladies-in-waiting, Lettice Knollys. Described as being one of the best-looking women of the court, she was of royal blood, being the great-niece of Elizabeth’s mother, Anne Boleyn. This no doubt added to her attraction for Dudley, who had enjoyed a flirtation with Lettice for the previous 10 years. Now that his last-ditch attempt to persuade Elizabeth to marry him had failed, he took Lettice as his mistress. 

 

For a time, Elizabeth was blissfully unaware that her favourite was betraying her. But three years into the affair, Lettice became pregnant. She was not a woman to be set aside and insisted that Dudley marry her. Fearing the inevitable backlash from his royal mistress, he agreed only to a secret ceremony, which took place in 1578. The bride was said to have worn “a loose gown” – a coded reference to her pregnant state. It was not long before the secret leaked out at court.

 

When Elizabeth learned that her cousin had stolen the only man she had truly loved, she flew into a jealous rage, boxing Lettice’s ears and screaming that “as but one sun lightened the earth, she would have but one queen in England”. She then banished this “flouting wench” from her presence, vowing never to set eyes on her again. Although she eventually forgave Dudley, their relationship had lost the intimacy that had defined it for so many years.

 

But towards the end of Dudley’s life, they grew close once more. In 1586, he went to command her forces in the Netherlands. Missing him, she wrote an affectionate letter, which she signed: “As you know, ever the same. ER.” “Ever the same” or “semper eadem” was her motto, but she and Dudley knew how much more it signified in their relationship. 

 

The following year, the execution of Mary, Queen of Scots at Elizabeth’s orders threw her into turmoil and it was to her old favourite that she turned for comfort. Dudley was also by Elizabeth’s side through the Armada crisis of 1588 (the Spanish navy’s failed attempt to invade England, thwarted by the English fleet). By now he was gravely ill but did not hesitate to accept the post of ‘Lieutenant and Captain-General of the Queen’s Armies and Companies’.

 

He walked beside her horse as his royal mistress delivered her famous speech at Tilbury on 8 August 1588, while inspecting the troops that had been assembled to defend the Thames Estuary against any incursion up-river towards London: “I know I have the body but of a weak and feeble woman, but I have the heart and stomach of a king and of a king of England too.” 

 

He stayed with the queen in the immediate aftermath of the Armada, wishing to be certain that the danger had passed. One of the last recorded sightings of the pair together was at a palace window, watching a celebratory parade staged by his stepson, the Earl of Essex. By now in poor health, Dudley took his leave of Elizabeth. He, at least, must have known that it would be for the last time.

 

A few days later, he wrote to Elizabeth from Rycote in Oxfordshire, ending the letter: “I humbly kiss your foot… by Your Majesty’s most faithful and obedient servant.” These were probably the last words ever written by Robert Dudley. Five days later, on 4 September 1588, he breathed his last. Elizabeth was inconsolable at the loss of “sweet Robin”, the only man whom she had ever truly loved. Their relationship had survived almost 50 years of trials and tribulations, and Elizabeth was lost without him.

 

In the days immediately after his death, she kept to her room, unable to face her court or council. The brief note that he had sent her from Rycote now became her most treasured possession. She inscribed it “His last letter”, and kept it in a locked casket by her bed for the rest of her life. For years afterwards if anyone mentioned Robert Dudley’s name her eyes filled with tears.

 

Elizabeth's other men

 

As well as Dudley, the Virgin Queen had several other contenders for her heart

 

Eric XIV of Sweden (1533–77)

 

Realising that marrying a home-grown candidate was fraught with difficulty, Elizabeth’s ministers focused upon suitors from overseas for most of her reign. One of the earliest was King Eric XIV of Sweden, who had started to make overtures towards Elizabeth before she was queen. He continued to pursue her for several years and even made plans to visit her. Horrified, she wrote him a polite but firm letter, telling him to stay away and assuring him: “We have never yet conceived a feeling of that kind of affection towards anyone.”

 

Philip II of Spain (1527–98)

 

Even while he had been married to her sister Mary I, Philip II of Spain had made overtures towards Elizabeth, beguiled by her youthful charms. When Mary died, Philip – who had been styled ‘King of England’ for his wife’s lifetime only – was reluctant to give up his English kingdom and so sent a proposal of marriage to Elizabeth. He urged the new queen to consider the advantages of having the protection of Spain. Elizabeth employed what would become her customary tactic of delaying, but eventually told Philip that she could not marry her sister’s widower, and that his Catholicism would not be acceptable to her people. Thenceforth, they were enemies.

 

François, Duke of Alençon and Anjou (1555–84)

 

Elizabeth’s last serious suitor was François, the Duke of Alençon and Anjou, and the youngest son of King Henry II of France. He had first been proposed as a husband in 1578, when he was 23 and Elizabeth 45. Despite the considerable age gap, the pair became very close, aided by the fact that the duke was the only one of the queen’s many suitors to court her in person. Calling him her “frog”, Queen Elizabeth showered the young duke with affection, and he gave every appearance of returning her love. But it all came to nothing, and François eventually returned to France in 1581.

 

Robert Devereux, Earl of Essex (1565–1601)

 

Robert was the son of Elizabeth’s rival Lettice Knollys with her first husband Walter Devereux, 1st Earl of Essex. He was 30 years younger than Elizabeth but gave every appearance of being passionately in love with her. She was beguiled by his darkly handsome looks and swaggering self-confidence, which made him take greater liberties with the queen than anyone else dared. Painfully aware that age had ravished her looks, she was fiercely possessive of his attentions. But Essex had already proved false. In 1590, he had incurred her wrath by secretly marrying Frances Walsingham, daughter of the secretary of state. He later led a rebellion against Elizabeth’s regime and was executed in 1601.

 

Dr Tracy Borman is joint chief curator of Historic Royal Palaces and an expert on the Tudor period. 

From: http://www.historyextra.com/article/elizabeth-i/queen-elizabeth-great-love

 

[Newstar]

6 hours ago, Springwatch said:

So many decapitations in Sansa's story so far - it would almost be strange if LF's head didn't end up on a spike.  I only hope she doesn't end up on a spike herself.

I agree it won't be for Jeyne, officially. Sex crimes don't seem to rate the death penalty - rapists get sent to the Wall. Poor Jeyne was legally subject to collective punishment of the Starks by the Crown - or it might seem that way to Sansa's lords.

Somebody on these boards said that the motif running through Sansa's storyline is decapitation: she meets Ser Ilyn, Ned is beheaded, she has a nightmare about Ser Ilyn coming to behead her, Joffrey takes her to inspect the heads of people he has executed, she wishes that a hero would strike off Janos Slynt's head, at Blackwater Cersei instructs the guards to behead the night's first traitors, Cersei informs Sansa that if the battle is lost Ser Ilyn will behead them, Joffrey promised to behead Tyrion if he didn't bring Sansa to Joffrey's bed, Sansa rips the head off Sweetrobin's doll, she frets a few times about Cersei having her head if she's discovered, etc. I thought it was a very astute observation. If Sansa does die, I suspect it will be by decapitation. 

With all that said, I doubt that Sansa will be decapitating LF herself with a sword anytime soon. That requires a level of upper body strength that Sansa doesn't have.

[Springwatch]

25 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Somebody on these boards said that the motif running through Sansa's storyline is decapitation: she meets Ser Ilyn, Ned is beheaded, she has a nightmare about Ser Ilyn coming to behead her, Joffrey takes her to inspect the heads of people he has executed, she wishes that a hero would strike off Janos Slynt's head, at Blackwater Cersei instructs the guards to behead the night's first traitors, Cersei informs Sansa that if the battle is lost Ser Ilyn will behead them, Joffrey promised to behead Tyrion if he didn't bring Sansa to Joffrey's bed, Sansa rips the head off Sweetrobin's doll, she frets a few times about Cersei having her head if she's discovered, etc. I thought it was a very astute observation. If Sansa does die, I suspect it will be by decapitation. 

With all that said, I doubt that Sansa will be decapitating LF herself with a sword anytime soon. That requires a level of upper body strength that Sansa doesn't have.

A good list of beheadings. The only other one I remember is that sweet little disagreement with Jeyne over where Ser Beric would display the Mountain's head.

I'm inclined to add Lady to the list as well, for no very logical reason, just that it's how Ice is used - and if you think you're good enough to kill a wriggling wolf puppy with a sword six feet long, you might as well go the whole hog and make it decapitation.

It would be a terrible omen for Sansa, of course. It's enough to make me believe in the theory of wordplay - because she's got another motif running through her story: all those suitors. Is loss of maidenhead all she has to fear?

[Newstar]

11 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

A good list of beheadings. The only other one I remember is that sweet little disagreement with Jeyne over where Ser Beric would display the Mountain's head.

I'm inclined to add Lady to the list as well, for no very logical reason, just that it's how Ice is used - and if you think you're good enough to kill a wriggling wolf puppy with a sword six feet long, you might as well go the whole hog and make it decapitation.

It would be a terrible omen for Sansa, of course. It's enough to make me believe in the theory of wordplay - because she's got another motif running through her story: all those suitors. Is loss of maidenhead all she has to fear?

I assumed Ned slit Lady's throat, but now that I think of it, he probably did decapitate her; Ice is probably too big and cumbersome for throat-slitting. There's something very ominous about her fear of Ser Ilyn. Even in ASOS in the Eyrie she's still having nightmares about Ser Ilyn.