Sansa and the Savage Giant

[HallowedMarcus]

3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yeah, I don't buy into this notion that she is a nasty selfish person. Sorry. The actions she took are self-preservation and that is normal human behaviour.

 

On 11/07/2017 at 7:50 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And whilst I agree that Sansa lies. (thank the gods or she'd be long ago dead.) I disagree that the lies are self-comforting, they are pure survival.

    I agree it is survival and if she behaved differently she might have been beheaded. She indeed, most of the time, had no other choice. She is not a nasty, very selfish or evil person like the craven evil ego-centered Joffrey.  However, she did go to Cersei and told her what her father was up to and that was selfish. She did not let go of her dreams of Kings, Queens, Holy noble Knights with noble hearts, even after her father told them (Sansa & Arya) to say nothing of it to anyone. This was not survival of her life, but the survival of her dreams, of her will and that is selfish!

On 09/07/2017 at 11:09 AM, Winter's Cold said:

Sansa cannot be excused for betraying her father especially when that betrayal had severe negative consequences for not only her but also Arya and Jeyne.

   It was a betrayal of trust, yes, but not a real betrayal. Sansa did not know that Joffrey was Cersei son with Jaime. Ned Stark did not tell her that. He did not show her the Book, which shows that all children the Baratheons had with Lannister and other blond hair nobles had black hair, that the "Robert's seed is strong" meant King Robert not his son Robert (Jon Arryn quote). that probably Brandon caught Cersei and Jaime and was flung from Winterfell's Tower. If Ned had told her then it would have been betrayal without a doubt. She acted in her self interest here, true, but she could not have guessed what would happen.

[Springwatch]

21 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

<snip>

I've tagged @Pain killer Jane to comment on the 'blue falcon', given that it's her concept and more fully worked-out in her mind than mine (the idea is actually quite nuanced with a broad spectrum of blue falcons and possible trajectories; last I heard she was planning an essay on the topic); perhaps she can more adequately address some of the questions you're raising.  Just a few notes to consider:

<snip>

Ok, this blue falcon theory has more potential for fun than I was expecting, and if Jon Arryn is included, it is indeed more nuanced than the definition I got from Google.

It doesn't change anything about Sansa; she either deserves the label or she does not, depending on how you judge her actions.

Anyway, thanks for sharing - that was a great explanation. @Pain killer Jane & @ravenous reader

22 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Thought you might .

I am becoming predictable!

[The Bard of Banefort]

There has always been a lot of backlash against Sansa for lying about Mycah and Nymeria, but something worth mentioning is that Sansa paid for that lie, not Arya. Lady died because of Sansa's lie; Arya had already sent Nymeria away by that point, and Mycah had already been killed. Maybe Robert would have chastised Joffrey had Sansa told the truth, but it wouldn't have changed the dynamic between the Lannisters and the Starks. Sansa's wolf was killed because of the lie she told.

We the readers were obviously upset that Sansa informed on Ned, but truthfully she didn't know that their lives were at stake. She messed up big time, but she learned from it, as we saw in the following books. 

I actually found Sansa's mantra about there being no harm in a lie if it's kindly met as reassuring; her needing some sort of justification for her lies shows she still has a conscience (she'd actually be a much less interesting character if she didn't, in my opinion). I agree with the sentiment that Sansa lies for the sake of survival. Both of the Stark girls have been fighting to survive since the end of AGOT, and both have had to literally become different people in order to attain it. If I had to make a bet, it would be that by the end of the series both Arya and Sansa will have put an end to these deceptions and reclaimed their true identities.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 12/07/2017 at 1:39 PM, HallowedMarcus said:

 

    I agree it is survival and if she behaved differently she might have been beheaded. She indeed, most of the time, had no other choice. She is not a nasty, very selfish or evil person like the craven evil ego-centered Joffrey.  However, she did go to Cersei and told her what her father was up to and that was selfish. She did not let go of her dreams of Kings, Queens, Holy noble Knights with noble hearts, even after her father told them (Sansa & Arya) to say nothing of it to anyone. This was not survival of her life, but the survival of her dreams, of her will and that is selfish!

   

1

And what 12 year old would be any different? Given that she does not know the gravity of the situation, nor that Joffrey is a bastard of incest.  Why on earth do people hold a 12-year-old up to such lofty standards? I've got kids about this age, in fact, I have one who is 12 next week and to expect them to of their own volition set aside their hopes, dreams etc is absurd. Fuck me, My twelve year old won't even share his ice cream let alone asking him to give up his heart's desire cos I wanted to go home early. I mean come the fuck on a minute. I remember being that age and having a shit fit in Presto's cos my mother wouldn't let me go to the park with my mates. And I mean full on I'm gonna call child line you are the worst parent EVER!!!! tantrum.  I think people need to get a grip when they are judging Sansa's actions here. Because the level of maturity and self-reflection they are expecting is ridiculous. 

Not to mention Nice but dim Ned already told Cersei his plan and she'd already outmanoeuvred him. And when we get to read her POV later on frankly the idea she could outmanoeuvre a blind sheep seems a bit far fetched so.......

[Winter's Cold]

On 7/12/2017 at 9:43 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

There has always been a lot of backlash against Sansa for lying about Mycah and Nymeria, but something worth mentioning is that Sansa paid for that lie, not Arya. Lady died because of Sansa's lie; Arya had already sent Nymeria away by that point, and Mycah had already been killed. Maybe Robert would have chastised Joffrey had Sansa told the truth, but it wouldn't have changed the dynamic between the Lannisters and the Starks. Sansa's wolf was killed because of the lie she told.

We the readers were obviously upset that Sansa informed on Ned, but truthfully she didn't know that their lives were at stake. She messed up big time, but she learned from it, as we saw in the following books. 

I actually found Sansa's mantra about there being no harm in a lie if it's kindly met as reassuring; her needing some sort of justification for her lies shows she still has a conscience (she'd actually be a much less interesting character if she didn't, in my opinion). I agree with the sentiment that Sansa lies for the sake of survival. Both of the Stark girls have been fighting to survive since the end of AGOT, and both have had to literally become different people in order to attain it. If I had to make a bet, it would be that by the end of the series both Arya and Sansa will have put an end to these deceptions and reclaimed their true identities.

All of the Stark household paid for Sansa's decision to go to Cersei. Sansa told Cersei the time of their departure and also the specific ship that they would be leaving on. When Arya tries to escape using that ship, she notes that she doesn't recognize the men guarding it indicating that it is a trap that the Lannisters set. 

Sansa was captured and used against her family members as a hostage. Ned confessed to treason and lied about Joffrey's birth to protect Sansa. Catelyn released Jaime to get Sansa back. Sansa herself was abused and married against her will.

Jeyne was also captured and her father was murdered before her eyes. She was given to Littlefinger for training and pretended to be Arya. She was then married to Ramsay and suffered horrific abuse.

Arya escaped capture through the help of her teacher Syrio Forel and her knowledge of the Red Keep. She became a fugitive and had to hide her identity and gender to survive. She was forced to traverse through the war torn Riverlands and she also suffered abuse by the hands of the Mountain's men.

Sansa was not the only one who paid for her decision. Jeyne Poole, Arya and the other members of the Stark household paid as well. Robb, Ned and Catelyn were also affected negatively by her hostage status and they paid too. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

5 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

All of the Stark household paid for Sansa's decision to go to Cersei. Sansa told Cersei the time of their departure and also the specific ship that they would be leaving on. When Arya tries to escape using that ship, she notes that she doesn't recognize the men guarding it indicating that it is a trap that the Lannisters set. 

Sansa was captured and used against her family members as a hostage. Ned confessed to treason and lied about Joffrey's birth to protect Sansa. Catelyn released Jaime to get Sansa back. Sansa herself was abused and married against her will.

Jeyne was also captured and her father was murdered before her eyes. She was given to Littlefinger for training and pretended to be Arya. She was then married to Ramsay and suffered horrific abuse.

Arya escaped capture through the help of her teacher Syrio Forel and her knowledge of the Red Keep. She became a fugitive and had to hide her identity and gender to survive. She was forced to traverse through the war torn Riverlands and she also suffered abuse by the hands of the Mountain's men.

Sansa was not the only one who paid for her decision. Jeyne Poole, Arya and the other members of the Stark household paid as well. Robb, Ned and Catelyn were also affected negatively by her hostage status and they paid too. 

I said that Sansa paid for her lie about Nymeria attacking Joffrey, not for her informing on Ned. I acknowledged that her revealing Ned's decision to return to Winterfell was a major mistake. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

20 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

All of the Stark household paid for Sansa's decision to go to Cersei. Sansa told Cersei the time of their departure and also the specific ship that they would be leaving on. When Arya tries to escape using that ship, she notes that she doesn't recognize the men guarding it indicating that it is a trap that the Lannisters set. 

Sansa was captured and used against her family members as a hostage. Ned confessed to treason and lied about Joffrey's birth to protect Sansa. Catelyn released Jaime to get Sansa back. Sansa herself was abused and married against her will.

Jeyne was also captured and her father was murdered before her eyes. She was given to Littlefinger for training and pretended to be Arya. She was then married to Ramsay and suffered horrific abuse.

Arya escaped capture through the help of her teacher Syrio Forel and her knowledge of the Red Keep. She became a fugitive and had to hide her identity and gender to survive. She was forced to traverse through the war torn Riverlands and she also suffered abuse by the hands of the Mountain's men.

Sansa was not the only one who paid for her decision. Jeyne Poole, Arya and the other members of the Stark household paid as well. Robb, Ned and Catelyn were also affected negatively by her hostage status and they paid too. 

Except that Ned, in fact, informed Cersei that he was going to reveal her children's real parentage and thus he informed her of his own move against her, and he fucked up with LF.  The only thing Sansa did was get herself captured and so losing the opportunity to attempt escape and gave Cersei the information she used to try to capture Arya - which failed.  everything else that happened would have happened anyway had Sansa not gone to Cersei. Of sorry except Ned would not have "admitted" to treason. He'd have still likely pleaded for the wall and still likely have lost his head. As it was LF who whispered in Joffrey's ear and his agenda regarding Ned who was married to his "only Cat" love of his life is very clear. 

[HallowedMarcus]

5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

he only thing Sansa did was get herself captured and so losing the opportunity to attempt escape and gave Cersei the information she used to try to capture Arya - which failed.

 

    She also stopped Arya escape of King's Landing by ship making it a trap instead of a way out of there. All suffering Arya had was caused by that decision. Arya tried to use her exploring knowledge to leave the Red Keep and escape King's Landing through that ship. He did reach the ship but did not go 'home' ! Why? Because of Sansa Stark. Yes, she gave information that eased Arya capture which did not happen but that information did not allow her to get to the ship and therefore all suffering, humiliation before, in and after Harrenhal is Sansa's fault!

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

all suffering, humiliation before, in and after Harrenhal is Sansa's fault!

And did Sansa somehow plan on this happening to her sister?

[Lollygag]

3 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

 She also stopped Arya escape of King's Landing by ship making it a trap instead of a way out of there. All suffering Arya had was caused by that decision.

So Arya could be at Winterfell when Theon, the Ironborn, and Reek attacked and betrayed Robb? The Ironborn who are notorious rapists and murderers, Reek, plus two little girls? Yeah, too bad Arya was spared from that bright, possible "future".

[Springwatch]

3 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

 

    She also stopped Arya escape of King's Landing by ship making it a trap instead of a way out of there....

I don't even believe it happened that way. Securing the hostages is such an absolutely basic move for this coup - Sansa's input is unnecessary.

It wasn't Sansa that triggered the plot; it was Ned, when he threatened Cersei with exposure and exile. Cersei would be moving to trap the Starks from that moment - why wait? Ned was a deadly threat to Cersei and her children, but as long as she held his daughters, she could neutralise him (he doesn't have the manpower to win by force).

Cersei has all the spies, watchers and guards she could possibly need to prevent the Starks leaving by land or sea. She can do it, it's simple and easy, so why not? Probably the docks were monitored and the Starks spied from the moment they arrived in King's Landing. Varys would do it. The Lannisters would also do it. Knowledge is power.

People talk like Sansa was the deciding factor in the fall of the Starks, but that's nonsense. When the balance of power is weighted so far in Cersei's favour, another feather on the scales makes no difference whatsoever.

[Lollygag]

13 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I don't even believe it happened that way. Securing the hostages is such an absolutely basic move for this coup - Sansa's input is unnecessary.

It wasn't Sansa that triggered the plot; it was Ned, when he threatened Cersei with exposure and exile. Cersei would be moving to trap the Starks from that moment - why wait? Ned was a deadly threat to Cersei and her children, but as long as she held his daughters, she could neutralise him (he doesn't have the manpower to win by force).

Cersei has all the spies, watchers and guards she could possibly need to prevent the Starks leaving by land or sea. She can do it, it's simple and easy, so why not? Probably the docks were monitored and the Starks spied from the moment they arrived in King's Landing. Varys would do it. The Lannisters would also do it. Knowledge is power.

People talk like Sansa was the deciding factor in the fall of the Starks, but that's nonsense. When the balance of power is weighted so far in Cersei's favour, another feather on the scales makes no difference whatsoever.

Exactly.

Ned’s mistake to go South when he knew he should have stayed North screwed Arya. Ned telling Cersei in advance also screwed Arya.

Catelyn kidnapping Tywin Lannister’s son only on LF’s say so really screwed Arya.

Robb trusting Theon robbed Arya of being able to make her way to safety at Winterfell. Robb marrying Jeyne instead of a Frey girl also really screwed Arya, and brought Arya within a hair of getting killed at the Red Wedding.

LF started all of this mess which put Arya into this situation.

But no blame in the slightest for Ned, Cat, Robb and LF for Arya’s life. It’s all Sansa’s fault. Something else is going on here with all of the Sansa blaming. It’s definitely not reflective of an objective view of the situation, and given that GRRM is writing “grey” characters who all screw up and where the reader is supposed to process the complexities of the human condition, this black/white view of Sansa or any character who clearly is not a Joffrey/Ramsey/Euron type is misreading what the intended message is in the text.

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

At the end of the day, the Lannisters and their allies are to blame for Ned's demise. Cersei having an affair with her brother and naming their child as Robert's heir is what started this mess, and it was that same heir who called for Ned's head. 

[ravenous reader]

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And did Sansa somehow plan on this happening to her sister?

Does the lack of forethought truly vindicate her?  

 As is her wont, Sansa failed to think about the potential impact her (in)actions might have on anyone else, even after being warned by Ned that he was sending them home for their own safety in light of their men 'cut down like dogs,' and that they should be vigilant and discrete; the same way it slipped her mind to ask after Arya's fate when brought before Cersei (quite a striking omission for an elder sister, if you think about it).  She was merely inconsiderate of anyone else's wellbeing besides her own, with potentially catastrophic consequences.  

Unfortunately, the gods do not make an exception for such ignorance:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.

"Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. 

During the Trident court proceedings, Sansa thought she could escape unscathed by pleading ignorance.  The result of this 'ignorance' was the validation of Joffrey's testimony over Arya's, and Lady's death.  In essence, she killed her own wolf 'unknowing' -- welcome to GRRM's grim karmic lessons (he's not really a morally 'grey' writer ).

 

On 7/12/2017 at 8:39 AM, HallowedMarcus said:

This was not survival of her life, but the survival of her dreams, of her will and that is selfish!

The distinction you're making between physical survival ('the survival of her life') and psychic self-assertion ('the survival of her dreams') is an important one.  Sansa does not only lie in order to defend her physical integrity, but in order to elevate her own comforting narrative over any competing perspectives, with the aim of preserving the illusion of her own 'splendid' superiority.  In doing so, she denies the rights of others and avoids accountability, for example in the following passage where she is alone with Arya, so telling the truth about the facts in private would present no real danger in terms of physical survival, yet she nevertheless persists with her lie about what she witnessed at the Trident.  

What she's saying is simply false -- at no point did Mycah ever attack Joffrey.  In fact, the reverse is true -- Joffrey viciously attacked Mycah and got him killed.  It's interesting that the lie is told in the context of a discussion more generally the children are having about the ethical distribution of justice, while Sansa is insisting in the same breath that no injustice whatsoever befell Mycah, whom she dehumanizes by conveniently forgetting his name ('your butcher's boy'), implying on the contrary that the child basically 'deserved' to die for his 'transgressions' against the Prince.  Whichever way you spin it, it's a breezily callous display by Sansa, her selfish disregard made more glaring by the outpouring of the sympathy she has for the other innocent unfairly cut down, her wolf 'Lady', versus having no feeling at all for Mycah's plight, even in retrospect.  The telltale phrase 'Sansa put on an expression of remorse' as if it were a dress, easily exchanged for another, is as disturbing as it is revealing.

When Arya does not meekly go along with Sansa's revised version of events, daring to counter 'Her Grace's' false narrative by confronting her with the uncomfortable truth, thereby threatening to disturb Sansa's carefully-polished, tenuous positive regard of Joffrey and herself, ironically Arya is the one who gets blamed for being an inveterate troublemaker, someone who 'spoils' or 'ruins' everything.   It's not just her pretty dress Arya is ruining, Arya is spoiling Sansa's pretty lies.  Therein lies the threat to her equanimity.

I'll say it again -- 'slaying the savage giant' has something to do with slaying the lies, mostly her own, hopefully before Arya throws a literal or figurative blood orange at her, jolting her conscience.  

 

Quote

The Tower of the Hand seemed so empty after they left that Sansa was even pleased to see Arya when she went down to break her fast. "Where is everyone?" her sister wanted to know as she ripped the skin from a blood orange. "Did Father send them to hunt down Jaime Lannister?"

Sansa sighed. "They rode with Lord Beric, to behead Ser Gregor Clegane." She turned to Septa Mordane, who was eating porridge with a wooden spoon. "Septa, will Lord Beric spike Ser Gregor's head on his own gate or bring it back here for the king?" She and Jeyne Poole had been arguing over that last night.

The septa was horror-struck. "A lady does not discuss such things over her porridge. Where are your courtesies, Sansa? I swear, of late you've been near as bad as your sister."

"What did Gregor do?" Arya asked.

"He burned down a holdfast and murdered a lot of people, women and children too."

Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. "Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them."

"It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."

"Liar," Arya said. Her hand clenched the blood orange so hard that red juice oozed between her fingers.

"Go ahead, call me all the names you want," Sansa said airily. "You won't dare when I'm married to Joffrey. You'll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace." She shrieked as Arya flung the orange across the table. It caught her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish and plopped down into her lap.

"You have juice on your face, Your Grace," Arya said.

It was running down her nose and stinging her eyes. Sansa wiped it away with a napkin. When she saw what the fruit in her lap had done to her beautiful ivory silk dress, she shrieked again. "You're horrible," she screamed at her sister. "They should have killed you instead of Lady!"

Septa Mordane came lurching to her feet. "Your lord father will hear of this! Go to your chambers, at once. At once!"

"Me too?" Tears welled in Sansa's eyes. "That's not fair."

"The matter is not subject to discussion. Go!"

Sansa stalked away with her head up. She was to be a queen, and queens did not cry. At least not where people could see. When she reached her bedchamber, she barred the door and took off her dress. The blood orange had left a blotchy red stain on the silk. "I hate her!" she screamed. She balled up the dress and flung it into the cold hearth, on top of the ashes of last night's fire. When she saw that the stain had bled through onto her underskirt, she began to sob despite herself. She ripped off the rest of her clothes wildly, threw herself into bed, and cried herself back to sleep.

It was midday when Septa Mordane knocked upon her door. "Sansa. Your lord father will see you now."

Sansa sat up. "Lady," she whispered. For a moment it was as if the direwolf was there in the room, looking at her with those golden eyes, sad and knowing. She had been dreaming, she realized. Lady was with her, and they were running together, and . . . and . . . trying to remember was like trying to catch the rain with her fingers. The dream faded, and Lady was dead again.

"Sansa." The rap came again, sharply. "Do you hear me?"

"Yes, Septa," she called out. "Might I have a moment to dress, please?" Her eyes were red from crying, but she did her best to make herself beautiful.

Lord Eddard was bent over a huge leather-bound book when Septa Mordane marched her into the solar, his plaster-wrapped leg stiff beneath the table. "Come here, Sansa," he said, not unkindly, when the septa had gone for her sister. "Sit beside me." He closed the book.

Septa Mordane returned with Arya squirming in her grasp. Sansa had put on a lovely pale green damask gown and a look of remorse, but her sister was still wearing the ratty leathers and roughspun she'd worn at breakfast. "Here is the other one," the septa announced.

"My thanks, Septa Mordane. I would talk to my daughters alone, if you would be so kind." The septa bowed and left.

"Arya started it," Sansa said quickly, anxious to have the first word. "She called me a liar and threw an orange at me and spoiled my dress, the ivory silk, the one Queen Cersei gave me when I was betrothed to Prince Joffrey. She hates that I'm going to marry the prince. She tries to spoil everything, Father, she can't stand for anything to be beautiful or nice or splendid."

"Enough, Sansa." Lord Eddard's voice was sharp with impatience.

Arya raised her eyes. "I'm sorry, Father. I was wrong and I beg my sweet sister's forgiveness."

Sansa was so startled that for a moment she was speechless. Finally she found her voice. "What about my dress?"

"Maybe . . . I could wash it," Arya said doubtfully.

"Washing won't do any good," Sansa said. "Not if you scrubbed all day and all night. The silk is ruined."

"Then I'll . . . make you a new one," Arya said.

Sansa threw back her head in disdain. "You? You couldn't sew a dress fit to clean the pigsties."

Their father sighed. "I did not call you here to talk of dresses. I'm sending you both back to Winterfell."

For the second time Sansa found herself too stunned for words. She felt her eyes grow moist again.

"You can't," Arya said.

"Please, Father," Sansa managed at last. "Please don't."

Eddard Stark favored his daughters with a tired smile. "At last we've found something you agree on."

"I didn't do anything wrong," Sansa pleaded with him. "I don't want to go back." She loved King's Landing; the pagaentry of the court, the high lords and ladies in their velvets and silks and gemstones, the great city with all its people. The tournament had been the most magical time of her whole life, and there was so much she had not seen yet, harvest feasts and masked balls and mummer shows. She could not bear the thought of losing it all. "Send Arya away, she started it, Father, I swear it. I'll be good, you'll see, just let me stay and I promise to be as fine and noble and courteous as the queen."

Father's mouth twitched strangely. "Sansa, I'm not sending you away for fighting, though the gods know I'm sick of you two squabbling. I want you back in Winterfell for your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we sit, and what does Robert do? He goes hunting."

 

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I don't even believe it happened that way. Securing the hostages is such an absolutely basic move for this coup - Sansa's input is unnecessary.

...

People talk like Sansa was the deciding factor in the fall of the Starks, but that's nonsense. When the balance of power is weighted so far in Cersei's favour, another feather on the scales makes no difference whatsoever.

The level of 'Sansapology' on this thread is admirable!    She's not a 'deciding factor,' yet she's definitely a contributing one.  

She made it easy for Cersei by supplying the plans and the precise name of the ship (which it's implied in the following passage Ned had told the children in confidence), so Cersei was able to set a trap for Arya without too much trouble.  Had Arya not been astute enough to see through the ruse, she would have been captured too:

Quote

AGOT - Arya V

When she saw the guardsmen on the third pier, in grey woolen cloaks trimmed with white satin, her heart almost stopped in her chest. The sight of Winterfell's colors brought tears to her eyes. Behind them, a sleek three-banked trading galley rocked at her moorings. Arya could not read the name painted on the hull; the words were strange, Myrish, Braavosi, perhaps even High Valyrian. She grabbed a passing longshoreman by the sleeve. "Please," she said, "what ship is this?"

"She's the Wind Witch, out of Myr," the man said.

"She's still here," Arya blurted. The longshoreman gave her a queer look, shrugged, and walked away. Arya ran toward the pier. The Wind Witch was the ship Father had hired to take her home . . . still waiting! She'd imagined it had sailed ages ago.

Two of the guardsmen were dicing together while the third walked rounds, his hand on the pommel of his sword. Ashamed to let them see her crying like a baby, she stopped to rub at her eyes. Her eyes her eyes her eyes, why did . . .

Look with your eyes, she heard Syrio whisper.

Arya looked. She knew all of her father's men. The three in the grey cloaks were strangers.

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Does the lack of forethought truly vindicate her?  

 As is her wont, Sansa failed to think about the potential impact her (in)actions might have on anyone else, even after being warned by Ned that he was sending them home for their own safety in light of their men 'cut down like dogs,' and that they should be vigilant and discrete; the same way it slipped her mind to ask after Arya's fate when brought before Cersei (quite a striking omission for an elder sister, if you think about it).  She was merely inconsiderate of anyone else's wellbeing besides her own, with potentially catastrophic consequences.  

Unfortunately, the gods do not make an exception for such ignorance:

During the Trident court proceedings, Sansa thought she could escape unscathed by pleading ignorance.  The result of this 'ignorance' was the validation of Joffrey's testimony over Arya's, and Lady's death.  In essence, she killed her own wolf 'unknowing' -- welcome to GRRM's grim karmic lessons (he's not really a morally 'grey' writer ).

 

The distinction you're making between physical survival ('the survival of her life') and psychic self-assertion ('the survival of her dreams') is an important one.  Sansa does not only lie in order to defend her physical integrity, but in order to elevate her own comforting narrative over any competing perspectives, with the aim of preserving the illusion of her own 'splendid' superiority.  In doing so, she denies the rights of others and avoids accountability, for example in the following passage where she is alone with Arya, so telling the truth about the facts in private would present no real danger in terms of physical survival, yet she nevertheless persists with her lie about what she witnessed at the Trident.  

What she's saying is simply false -- at no point did Mycah ever attack Joffrey.  In fact, the reverse is true -- Joffrey viciously attacked Mycah and got him killed.  It's interesting that the lie is told in the context of a discussion more generally the children are having about the ethical distribution of justice, while Sansa is insisting in the same breath that no injustice whatsoever befell Mycah, whom she dehumanizes by conveniently forgetting his name ('your butcher's boy'), implying on the contrary that the child basically 'deserved' to die for his 'transgressions' against the Prince.  Whichever way you spin it, it's a breezily callous display by Sansa, her selfish disregard made more glaring by the outpouring of the sympathy she has for the other innocent unfairly cut down, her wolf 'Lady', versus having no feeling at all for Mycah's plight, even in retrospect.  The telltale phrase 'Sansa put on an expression of remorse' as if it were a dress, easily exchanged for another, is as disturbing as it is revealing.

When Arya does not meekly go along with Sansa's revised version of events, daring to counter 'Her Grace's' false narrative by confronting her with the uncomfortable truth, thereby threatening to disturb Sansa's carefully-polished, tenuous positive regard of Joffrey and herself, ironically Arya is the one who gets blamed for being an inveterate troublemaker, someone who 'spoils' or 'ruins' everything.   It's not just her pretty dress Arya is ruining, Arya is spoiling Sansa's pretty lies.  Therein lies the threat to her equanimity.

I'll say it again -- 'slaying the savage giant' has something to do with slaying the lies, mostly her own, hopefully before Arya throws a literal or figurative blood orange at her, jolting her conscience.  

 

 

The level of 'Sansapology' on this thread is admirable!    She's not a 'deciding factor,' yet she's definitely a contributing one.  

She made it easy for Cersei by supplying the plans and the precise name of the ship (which it's implied in the following passage Ned had told the children in confidence), so Cersei was able to set a trap for Arya without too much trouble.  Had Arya not been astute enough to see through the ruse, she would have been captured too:

 

I favor a much simpler explanation for Sansa's character development: in AGOT she was young and foolish, and now she's growing up. If Jaime and Theon can redeem themselves, I don't think it's too much to ask the same for Sansa. Her first chapter in ACOK ends with her affirming how much of a mistake it was to trust Cersei and Joffrey, and her compassion also grows from this point as well. Even if Sansa doesn't come right out and say that she should have been nicer to her sister, she wouldn't be dreaming about having a daughter that looks just like Arya if she didn't love her. Before Theon invaded Winterfell, Sansa believed that Arya had taken the ship back to Winterfell and was safe there with Bran and Rickon; to me, this indicates that she doesn't understand how her confession to Cersei contributed to the fall of Eddard Stark, which I guess you could chalk up to age or ignorance. I didn't like Sansa in AGOT either, but the way she grew afterwards is what endeared her to me. 

There's a lot of talk of whether or not Sansa is trying to stay alive or trying to protect her dreams, but again I think it's much simpler than that--she's trying to preserve her hope. Once someone loses all their hopes and dreams, they're much easier to defeat, and far less likely to get back up again. And I don't think that Sansa wants anything to do with court or being a queen anymore. Those dreams died in the first act of the series, and now Sansa's dreams revolve around returning home. 

And as far as Sansa's love for pretty gowns goes, well, now she willingly attends to Sweetrobin, who wets her bed and is constantly sneezing, puking, and sporadically throwing his food around. If that's not a convincing metaphor, I don't know what is. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And did Sansa somehow plan on this happening to her sister?

There was no malice aforethought, but I think a good argument can be made that her actions fulfill the elements of gross negligence. 

[Elaena Targaryen]

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I don't even believe it happened that way. Securing the hostages is such an absolutely basic move for this coup - Sansa's input is unnecessary.

It wasn't Sansa that triggered the plot; it was Ned, when he threatened Cersei with exposure and exile. Cersei would be moving to trap the Starks from that moment - why wait? Ned was a deadly threat to Cersei and her children, but as long as she held his daughters, she could neutralise him (he doesn't have the manpower to win by force).

Cersei has all the spies, watchers and guards she could possibly need to prevent the Starks leaving by land or sea. She can do it, it's simple and easy, so why not? Probably the docks were monitored and the Starks spied from the moment they arrived in King's Landing. Varys would do it. The Lannisters would also do it. Knowledge is power.

People talk like Sansa was the deciding factor in the fall of the Starks, but that's nonsense. When the balance of power is weighted so far in Cersei's favour, another feather on the scales makes no difference whatsoever.

I don't think anyone believes 'Sansa was that deciding factor in the fall of the Starks'. She did however give Cersei useful details - "it was a close thing"

Cersei believes Sansa's information had more value than what you suggest.

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 "So this Lord Slynt, he was part of it, was he? Tell me, whose fine notion was it to grant him Harrenhal and name him to the council?"

"Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt's gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans . . ."

Tyrion was surprised. "Truly? His own daughter?"

 

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 “It will take half a year or more to starve Dragonstone into submission, as Lord Paxter means to do. Give me the command, Your Grace. The castle will be yours within a fortnight if I have to tear it down with my bare hands.”  

No one had given Cersei such a lovely gift since Sansa Stark had run to her to divulge Lord Eddard’s plans. She was pleased to see that Margaery had gone pale. “Your courage takes my breath away, Ser Loras,” Cersei said....

 

...“I have no doubt that our Knight of Flowers will be the first man to gain the battlements.” And perhaps the first to fall. The pox-scarred bastard that Stannis had left to hold his castle was no callow tourney champion but a seasoned killer. If the gods were good, he would give Ser Loras the glorious end he seemed to want. Assuming the boy does not drown on the way. There had been another storm last night, a savage one. The rain had come down in black sheets for hours. And wouldn’t that be sad? the queen mused. Drowning is ordinary. Ser Loras lusts for glory as real men lust for women, the least the gods can do is grant him a death worthy of a song. 

No matter what befell the boy on Dragonstone, however, the queen would be the winner. If Loras took the castle, Stannis would suffer a grievous blow, and the Redwyne fleet could sail off to meet the ironmen. If he failed, she would see to it that he had the lion’s share of the blame. Nothing tarnishes a hero as much as failure. And if he should come home on his shield, covered in blood and glory, Ser Osney will be there to console his grieving sister.   

The laugh would not be contained any longer. It burst from Cersei’s lips, and echoed down the hall.

 

SSM

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The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc... but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc... all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.

I do think that people would be more understanding of this situation if Sansa were more explicit or blunt with herself when she shows guilt but that is just not her style. Sansa does not wear her heart on her sleeve even in her private thoughts, that's Arya, but she still feels remorse and she has paid for it. I do still wish she would have listened to her father -  "I want you back in Winterfell for your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we sit"

 

[ravenous reader]

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I favor a much simpler explanation for Sansa's character development: in AGOT she was young and foolish, and now she's growing up. If Jaime and Theon can redeem themselves, I don't think it's too much to ask the same for Sansa.

Sure.  There's always room for redemption, as GRRM has affirmed.  That's what I was implying with comparing 'slaying the savage giant' to 'slaying the lies'!

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Her first chapter in ACOK ends with her affirming how much of a mistake it was to trust Cersei and Joffrey, and her compassion also grows from this point as well. Even if Sansa doesn't come right out and say that she should have been nicer to her sister, she wouldn't be dreaming about having a daughter that looks just like Arya if didn't love her.

Very true.  And that poignant piece where she reminisces sadly about the cosiness of having a snowball fight with Arya and Bran:

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A Storm of Swords - Sansa VII

When Sansa opened her eyes again, she was on her knees. She did not remember falling. It seemed to her that the sky was a lighter shade of grey. Dawn, she thought. Another day. Another new day. It was the old days she hungered for. Prayed for. But who could she pray to? The garden had been meant for a godswood once, she knew, but the soil was too thin and stony for a weirwood to take root. A godswood without gods, as empty as me.

She scooped up a handful of snow and squeezed it between her fingers. Heavy and wet, the snow packed easily. Sansa began to make snowballs, shaping and smoothing them until they were round and white and perfect. She remembered a summer's snow in Winterfell when Arya and Bran had ambushed her as she emerged from the keep one morning. They'd each had a dozen snowballs to hand, and she'd had none. Bran had been perched on the roof of the covered bridge, out of reach, but Sansa had chased Arya through the stables and around the kitchen until both of them were breathless. She might even have caught her, but she'd slipped on some ice. Her sister came back to see if she was hurt. When she said she wasn't, Arya hit her in the face with another snowball, but Sansa grabbed her leg and pulled her down and was rubbing snow in her hair when Jory came along and pulled them apart, laughing.

What do I want with snowballs? She looked at her sad little arsenal. There's no one to throw them at. She let the one she was making drop from her hand. I could build a snow knight instead, she thought. Or even . . .

 

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Before Theon invaded Winterfell, Sansa believed that Arya had taken the ship back to Winterfell and was safe there with Bran and Rickon; to me, this indicates that she doesn't understand how her confession to Cersei contributed to the fall of Eddard Stark, which I guess you could chalk up to age or ignorance. I didn't like Sansa in AGOT either, but the way she grew afterwards is what endeared her to me. 

There's a lot of talk of whether or not Sansa is trying to stay alive or trying to protect her dreams, but again I think it's much simpler than that--she's trying to preserve her hope.

Unfortunately, preserving that hope has often come at the expense of dashing the aspirations of others.  However, I'm not disagreeing with you about the impulse.

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Once someone loses all their hopes and dreams, they're much easier to defeat, and far less likely to get back up again. And I don't think that Sansa wants anything to do with court or being a queen anymore. Those dreams died in the first act of the series, and now Sansa's dreams revolve around returning home. 

And as far as Sansa's love for pretty gowns goes, well, now she willingly attends to Sweetrobin, who wets her bed and is constantly sneezing, puking, and sporadically throwing his food around. If that's not a convincing metaphor, I don't know what is. 

Great catch -- you're right; as with the 'blood oranges' shattering the ivory illusion of the pristine dress, that's a wonderful metaphor for revealing the truth by muddying the lie, in contrast to Littlefinger's injunction that one should never get ones hands dirty in his artificially sanitised reality.  Try as she may, Sansa, sequestered in her 'ivory tower' in the Eyrie, finds no easy refuge from the invigorating messiness of Sweetrobin's flying 'porridge', pails of 'nightsoil', and Marillion's 'nightsong' piercing her in the darkness, which are all part and parcel of the same moral confrontation.

[Lollygag]

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

During the Trident court proceedings, Sansa thought she could escape unscathed by pleading ignorance.  The result of this 'ignorance' was the validation of Joffrey's testimony over Arya's, and Lady's death.  In essence, she killed her own wolf 'unknowing' -- welcome to GRRM's grim karmic lessons (he's not really a morally 'grey' writer ).

Sansa didn’t think she could escape unscathed. She was damned if she did, damned if she didn’t. She knew it and was terrified. Sansa couldn’t take flight, so she froze. In contrast, Arya is fight. Fight, flight or freeze, different survival responses. Sansa is even dressed as ice in blue and white. She's in winter fabric (velvet) with a chain around her neck and her hair shining as if frozen. She stammers. Her words are frozen.

His eldest daughter stepped forward hesitantly. She was dressed in blue velvets trimmed with white, a silver chain around her neck. Her thick auburn hair had been brushed until it shone. She blinked at her sister, then at the young prince. "I don't know," she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. "I don't remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn't see …"

"You rotten!" Arya shrieked. She flew at her sister like an arrow, knocking Sansa down to the ground, pummeling her. "Liar, liar, liar, liar."

Our choices have logical consequences but if GRRM’s dealing in more than the occasional karmic lesson, then that begs a lot of questions about the characters if their unfortunate situations are in fact a karmic consequence of their actions. What did Dany do at that point in the narrative to deserve being a child slave/bride? What did Ned do to deserve his head being chopped off and his family being tossed into chaos? I could go on...Choices have a price and that’s logical but I really don’t see karma here. Disney and Sansa’s fairy tales and songs deal in karma. It seems very out of place in ASOIAF.

 

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The distinction you're making between physical survival ('the survival of her life') and psychic self-assertion ('the survival of her dreams') is an important one.  Sansa does not only lie in order to defend her physical integrity, but in order to elevate her own comforting narrative over any competing perspectives, with the aim of preserving the illusion of her own 'splendid' superiority.  In doing so, she denies the rights of others and avoids accountability, for example in the following passage where she is alone with Arya, so telling the truth about the facts in private would present no real danger in terms of physical survival, yet she nevertheless persists with her lie about what she witnessed at the Trident.  

You’ve very nicely phrased something I’ve been chewing on for a while now with 'psychic survival' and 'physical survival'! In this series, I think these two are often in conflict.

I don’t disagree with AGOT's Sansa’s “splendid superiority”, but I do think there’s more going on here and it's tied to the blurring and confusion between psychic survival and physical survival. Sansa has let the outer world define how her life should be: mostly fairy tales, songs, Septa Mordane, and I strongly suspect Catelyn’s own biases being a very strong influence and all to earn the of approval of the powers that be. Evidence for Sansa’s very externalized definition of herself is being deeply motivated to seek approval from authority figures and in this case, Cersei as queen and mother-in-law had superseded Ned as the authority figure to be pleased. We see during Sansa’s later bastard days when she has the opportunity to choose to become a different person that Sansa was lying to herself as much as she lied to others about who she was. 

When one lets the outer world define one overly much, and the outer world doesn’t comply with those expectations, then that person is faced not just with a conflict, but an identity crisis or worse: a complete destruction of identity. Hence why the world not being what one expects can be such a threat to some, enough of a threat to construct “walls” of lies and if the one is too defined by our outer world, then the line between our dreams and our physical safety can become extremely blurred. It’s why people may go through an identity crisis after a death, divorce or a job loss: at one point we became defined by something external and now that external thing is lost and in turn we are now lost. Sansa losing her external dreams meant becoming nothing, because she didn't have sufficient definitions for herself which were more internalized and stable. If her dreams were nothing, lies, then she lived in a world she no longer understood and could not navigate and this is where psychic threats may blur into physical ones.

 

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I'll say it again -- 'slaying the savage giant' has something to do with slaying the lies, mostly her own, hopefully before Arya throws a literal or figurative blood orange at her, jolting her conscience.  

 

I'm strongly inclined to agree here. And there seems to be a strong pattern between self-told lies/blindness to reality or truth/willful blindness and walls. I think their connection to each other is worth further examination. I'm tired and I haven't nailed a pattern but here's some food for thought. Whatever's going on it seems fairly complex. Maybe since walls both protect and obscure (lie?), there's a fine line between self-preservation (protective aspect of a wall or physical survival) and self-delusion (obscuring aspect of a wall or psychic survival). The Wall seems to reflect this conflict a great deal where they either want to use the Wall for physical protection, or they want to extend the Wall's role to obscure the truth by sealing it and pretending the Others aren't on the other side and hoping all goes ok. Anyhow, walls seem to often go hand-in-hand with identity changes, truth and lies.

Jaime is not unlike Sansa as he has lived his entire life being who Twyin, Cersei, Aerys and Robert said he should be, mostly Cersei. Jaime emerges from behind the walls of Riverrun and the walls of his cell and it’s the beginning of the end of his lies about himself, those around him, and his place in the world.

Perhaps it means something that Sansa is now Alayne and free of the Walls of the Eyrie and well, any walls at all for the most part.

Arya is learning how to lie as a FM, and now the formerly truth-loving, “free-range” Arya who roamed the Riverlands (but still had to lie when she was within Walls) is now bound by walls in Braavos as it’s described as closed in, with no open spaces and tall narrow houses which must look like walls.

We have Bowen Marsh who in some ways I think is a lot like AGOT Sansa (hell I'm going to get flak for this!). Marsh is a traditionalist in the extreme, rule-crazed to the point of blindness. He’s a bean counter and people who deal in the minutia of numbers are noted for their need for order, structure and predictability. He’s strongly motivated by his fear of the Lannisters, but even more so, I think Bowen Marsh the bean counter, the order master, is terrified of living in a chaotic world he no longer understands. So much so that he hides behind his Wall, wants to reinforce it, seal it all up, and against all logic. The explanation for Marsh’s complete blindness to the threat at hand which fits best is that if he loses his world, he loses himself and that this is an intolerable prospect. It plays into the larger theme of playing the Game of Thrones while turning a blind eye to the true threats out there. The security of the Wall has facilitated a lot of lies. I suspect that a lot of Westeros will be like Bowen Marsh as the threat of Others grows stronger: people will want to slay the truth-teller to save the lie of their Wall. 

In the snowcastle scene, Sansa wants to assert herself as a Stark of Winterfell and thinks she is stronger in the Walls of Winterfell.  My read of Sansa is that Sansa (as she is constructed on the dictates of others) is the lie, but Alayne (constructed by Sansa herself) is the truth in parallel to Jaime. GRRM implies Sansa has undergone a symbolic death.

Jon will probably have to be free of the Wall if his hidden RLJ heritage and/or KitN arc is to be plot-relevant.

Perhaps it’s quite deliberate that our Giant’s head (Lies or speaker of lies) is mounted on a wall.

 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

16 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

 

    She also stopped Arya escape of King's Landing by ship making it a trap instead of a way out of there. All suffering Arya had was caused by that decision. Arya tried to use her exploring knowledge to leave the Red Keep and escape King's Landing through that ship. He did reach the ship but did not go 'home' ! Why? Because of Sansa Stark. Yes, she gave information that eased Arya capture which did not happen but that information did not allow her to get to the ship and therefore all suffering, humiliation before, in and after Harrenhal is Sansa's fault!

Wow, you've got some fucked up ideas about "fault" 

I did say that her information gave Cersei the ability to intercept the ship. But everything which happened to Arya after is not Sansa's fault, and thinking that is fucked up mate. Arya escaped KL with yoren, she had a bad time because of the Mountain and his men, the war in the Riverlads, etc etc. Had she got on that ship she'd have been in WF when Theon took the castle and quite easily could have suffered a worse fate. Given that Ramsey would have then had his hands on the actual Arya daughter of Ned Stark. And he would not have encouraged theon to kill her as he did the boys but would have sought to hold her captive before marrying her himself once he had shafted Theon. 

Yeah, Sansa did her sister a great wrong by telling Cersei about the ship.  

You can not hold Sansa responsible for the actions of The Mountain, or anyone else who caused Arya distress. She's not responsible for other peoples behaviour or the circumstances Arya found herself in due to the war. Only for her not getting the ship, which as I've just pointed out was a blessing.